refence pics

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refence pics
Topic Started: Dec 29 2005, 06:05 PM (3,506 Views)
crazas	Nov 20 2007, 02:00 AM Post #31
Captain of the Guard TX 3758 Posts: 1,056 Group: Supporter Member #228 Joined: November 6, 2006	As Jonah did, I have also been browsing on my Marvel comics and found nothing about Magmas. I have the full Marvel collection but I lack the time to check it all, so, if anyone knows for sure the issue number I'll be glad to scan it and post the pictures.



Peregrinus	Nov 20 2007, 03:42 AM Post #32
Advanced Member Posts: 111 Group: Members Member #236 Joined: December 1, 2006	Quote: Crimson Empire 1 and 2, plus the backstories of Carnor Jax and Kir Kanos are plenty of support for Royal Guards wearing the red armor along with the cloak/helm. Yes I realize its NOT the same, but it is accepted. I know some people wear red Stormtrooper armour under their Guard robes, but that and the Crimson Empire armour are two entirely different things. It's be like trying to get your Snowtrooper passed as a Sandtrooper. Quote: The Lumiya storyline is meant as something different from the Royal Guards, and should be. We also have to remember that in EU sources, many writers plus many plotlines plus many years = unevenness and inaccuracy that we have to compromise on! That passage I quoted several posts earlier clearly establishes the author's intent that they be Royal Guards in red Stormtrooper armour. That's hard ot compromise. I don't like the idea of accepting part of a reference, but not all of it. Picking and choosing which parts should make it in is playing George. Id say Red Stormtrooper armour belongs equally here and at the Royal Guard board. Same way BARC Troopers belong to both Clonetroopers and Scouts. But they're still not Magmatroopers. heh --Jonah



FLY JEDI	Nov 20 2007, 05:06 AM Post #33
Magma Trooper / Stealth Trooper Posts: 43 Group: Members Member #38 Joined: October 20, 2005	Call me a Red Stormtrooper. Call me a Magma Trooper. Either way, I'm one of the biggest fans of Star Wars and the best damn member of the 501st that I can be. This is about fun and friendship. This is about Charity. This is about giving back to my community. There's nothing better than having a kid see me at an event in my red armor and tell me that when he/she grows up, they want to be "one of the Red Ones" because they look so cool. That's what this is about. Call me simplistic, but don't tell me that wearing my red is a bad thing...



Peregrinus	Nov 20 2007, 08:08 AM Post #34
Advanced Member Posts: 111 Group: Members Member #236 Joined: December 1, 2006	Never in a million years. lol I love the red armour. Black armour, too. I'm just one of those who thinks if you're going to do something, you should know what you're doing, and not confuse it with something else. The authors of that Lumiya story are notable for a lot of short stories, magazine articles, and sourcebooks geared toward... less-sophisticated readers. i.e., lots of Pok�mon stuff. >_> But whilst they might not know enough about Star Wars minuti� to write a nice, complex story with no style or continuity gaffes, we still can't ignore it out of hand. My personal interpretation is dependent on actually talking to them. Until then, treat it as the rationalization it is: Normally, the Emperor's Royal Guards rotate into active Stormtrooper combat units to keep their fighting skills sharp. This is done with no indication or fanfare on the part of the Guardsmen, as anonymity is necessary to avoid special treatment. The Emperor assigns Guards to many of his high-level emissaries and ministers. Ysanne Isard, the Director of Imperial Intelligence, is no exception. The Guards assigned to her take part in special Intelligence operations, where their offensive prowess can be assigned precisely but brutally. When deployed on these operations, they eschew the flowing robes they normally wear, and don red Stormtrooper armour -- the same colour as their formal uniform and also of the Director of Imperial Intelligence, a tribute to it being Emperor Palpatine's favourite colour. Like I said, that's my interpretation, but it covers the observed phenomena without contradicting anything. But still not the never-seen Magmatroopers. apologetic look --Jonah



COS_Vader	Nov 20 2007, 08:57 AM Post #35
Detachment Leader Posts: 1,607 Group: Supporter Member #1 Joined: June 1, 2005	The TX Det houses all EU Troopers (and a few canon ones that can't get a home anywhere else). The Magma Troopers are accepted 501st and have been for as long as I've been a member and they'll always have a home here where we'll foster their membership numbers to grow. Your opinion has been noted - but they're not going away. Whether Magma Trooper or Lumiya's Troopers, they're both red Stormtroopers and we of the TX Det consider them red Stormtroopers just as Hasbro's Shadow Troopers and Stealthtroopers are basically black Stormtroopers. It's not a dumbing down of the standards, it is a matter of both grandfathering and the fact there is supportive historical official references (Databank & Lumiya pic referenced above). There is NO proof whatsoever that Guards wear red TK armor under their robes - it's an entirely different set of armor from what I've seen documented in EU comics, and that armor uniquely belongs to the guards - it's not a stormtrooper costume, despite the fact that they are stormtroopers hand picked from the Legion. I think it fits more in guard armor. We can continue to debate why EU authors and comics do things that others consider wrong, but it exists as an officially sanctioned reference and it supports the standard. No offence, but let's get this topic back on track (and subject) and stop debating their existance (too late - they exist) and see if we can find any more reference pics so we can improve the accuracy of our Detachment standard for this unique costume. Personally, I thought it was very cool that they got a nod from artist Mark Chiarello for his CIV propaganda poster.



crazas	Nov 20 2007, 01:41 PM Post #36
Captain of the Guard TX 3758 Posts: 1,056 Group: Supporter Member #228 Joined: November 6, 2006	Peregrinus Sep 25 2007, 07:45 PM Follow-on materials say that Isard loaned them to Lumiya for that action, which I have no problem with -- but says also that they were Royal Guards in red Stormtrooper armour, which I do have a problem with. There's enough material out there saying the Guards rotate into active Stormtrooper combat units. Johna Can you please tell about those comics (material) you're talking about, Marvel or Dark Horse, no problem, I want to read/view'em



Peregrinus	Nov 20 2007, 10:25 PM Post #37
Advanced Member Posts: 111 Group: Members Member #236 Joined: December 1, 2006	You mean for the Guards rotating into combat units? That's not from any comics that I know of. That dates back to West End Games' write-up for them in their Role-Playing Game in the late '80s. Let me dig out the Imperial Sourcebook and transcribe the entry on the Royal Guards: Quote: The Imperial Royal Guard is a special detachment of hand-picked Imperial stormtroopers who serve as the Emperor's personal guards. Each of these soldiers is specially scrutinized to fir select size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty requirements, and equipment and training is lavished upon them. No firm figures are available on the exact number of Royal Guards serving the Emperor, but speculation ranges from fewer than 50 to the tens of thousands. Whatever the case, the Royal Guard has become a formidable military sub-unit which is directly under the control of the Emperor. The entire Royal Guard is never sent on combat missions. A few small elements of the guard are sent into combat on a rotating basis to keep them in fighting trim. On such missions, guard members usually dispense with their ceremonial uniform and don the armor worn by other stormtroopes in the operation. In such instances, the guard members are always part of the same unit. They are never dispersed among the ordinary Army units [Note: This sourcebook holds that Stormtroopers are under the command of the Imperial Army. -- J.R.] Rumors abound about this fierce fighting force. The legend is that no Royal Guard member has yet been killed in combat. Stories tell of their invincible fighting prowess � always in the service of the Emperor. Royal Guards wear garb consisting of flowing red robes, red battle armor, and red helmets. Although ceremonial, the red armor does not hamper guardsmen in regards to movement or fighting. This armor is derived froma pair of similar designs, the uniforms of the Death Watch of the Mandalore system and the Sun Guards of the Thyrsus system. That the armor resembles those of units with such ferocious reputations is no accident, and the red glint of the Imperial Royal Guard armor inspires fear in the hardest of men. And that should be the last I have to say in here about Royal Guards. COS_Vader, I'm not trying to derail the topic. I'm actually keeping it very on-topic. It was looking for reference pictures of the Magmatrooper. And my point is that there aren't any. Anyone who thinks they've found one are actually seeing something else, or what the source they're referencing is mistakenly calling such. The very first ever appearance I know of of red Stormtrooper armour is in "Lumiya: Dark Star of the Empire" -- that short story from Star Wars Galaxy #3. That is what the Colleen Doran illustration is from, and those red troopers are what the full article explicitly referred to as Royal Guards (rationalization in an earlier post). No volcano, no Magmatroopers. This was in the early days of the Internet and two years before the 501st was even established. I don't think the Star Wars Databank existed yet in '95. And even today, all it has to say about Magmatroopers is: Quote: Other specialized Imperial trooper divisions included flying airtroopers, tunneling underminers, and magma troopers who crushed revolts on volcanic mining worlds. That's it. No image, not even the Doran illustration, which would have been erroneous. No Wookieepedia image, either. I have never seen red Stormtroopers in any comic, Marvel or Dark Horse. I have never seen them in any Role-Playing Game supplement, WEG or WotC. The one image I've ever seen of red Stormtroopers in an EU work is that Doran illustration of Royal Guards in red armour. So there is no visual reference for Magmatroopers, and anything put forward (besides the disproved Doran image) is pure fan speculation. That's what I was trying to get across. I know the 501st recognizes red Stormtroopers as Magmatroopers, but calling a tail a leg does not make it so. Red Troopers = SpecOps? Nifty. I'm all in favour. We can call them Isard's Troopers, Intel Troopers, or even SpecOps Royal Guards. I dont care. But Red Troopers = Magmatroopers? Vehemently oppose, as the only evidence available is against that supposition, and no amount of dogma will convince me otherwise. The 501st Council is not infallible. They're humans, just like us. They can make mistakes, just like us. But this is a mistake we can fix and pass along to the Council. --Jonah



COS_Vader	Nov 20 2007, 11:31 PM Post #38
Detachment Leader Posts: 1,607 Group: Supporter Member #1 Joined: June 1, 2005	Then we agree to disagree until better evidence proves otherwise. Until then, Magmatroopers / Lumiya's Troopers remain our red stormtroopers, grandfathered. I'll see what I can come up with through my collection as well, as I'd like this proved one way or another. Ref: REYNOLDS David West, Star Wars : The Visual Dictionary, DK Publishing, 1998



crazas	Nov 21 2007, 02:16 AM Post #39
Captain of the Guard TX 3758 Posts: 1,056 Group: Supporter Member #228 Joined: November 6, 2006	Peregrinus Nov 20 2007, 10:25 PM You mean for the Guards rotating into combat units? That's not from any comics that I know of. That dates back to West End Games' write-up for them in their Role-Playing Game in the late '80s. Let me dig out the Imperial Sourcebook and transcribe the entry on the Royal Guards: Quote: The Imperial Royal Guard is a special detachment of hand-picked Imperial stormtroopers who serve as the Emperor's personal guards. Each of these soldiers is specially scrutinized to fir select size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty requirements, and equipment and training is lavished upon them. No firm figures are available on the exact number of Royal Guards serving the Emperor, but speculation ranges from fewer than 50 to the tens of thousands. Whatever the case, the Royal Guard has become a formidable military sub-unit which is directly under the control of the Emperor. The entire Royal Guard is never sent on combat missions. A few small elements of the guard are sent into combat on a rotating basis to keep them in fighting trim. On such missions, guard members usually dispense with their ceremonial uniform and don the armor worn by other stormtroopes in the operation. In such instances, the guard members are always part of the same unit. They are never dispersed among the ordinary Army units [Note: This sourcebook holds that Stormtroopers are under the command of the Imperial Army. -- J.R.] Rumors abound about this fierce fighting force. The legend is that no Royal Guard member has yet been killed in combat. Stories tell of their invincible fighting prowess � always in the service of the Emperor. Royal Guards wear garb consisting of flowing red robes, red battle armor, and red helmets. Although ceremonial, the red armor does not hamper guardsmen in regards to movement or fighting. This armor is derived froma pair of similar designs, the uniforms of the Death Watch of the Mandalore system and the Sun Guards of the Thyrsus system. That the armor resembles those of units with such ferocious reputations is no accident, and the red glint of the Imperial Royal Guard armor inspires fear in the hardest of men. And that should be the last I have to say in here about Royal Guards. COS_Vader, I'm not trying to derail the topic. I'm actually keeping it very on-topic. It was looking for reference pictures of the Magmatrooper. And my point is that there aren't any. Anyone who thinks they've found one are actually seeing something else, or what the source they're referencing is mistakenly calling such. The very first ever appearance I know of of red Stormtrooper armour is in "Lumiya: Dark Star of the Empire" -- that short story from Star Wars Galaxy #3. That is what the Colleen Doran illustration is from, and those red troopers are what the full article explicitly referred to as Royal Guards (rationalization in an earlier post). No volcano, no Magmatroopers. This was in the early days of the Internet and two years before the 501st was even established. I don't think the Star Wars Databank existed yet in '95. And even today, all it has to say about Magmatroopers is: Quote: Other specialized Imperial trooper divisions included flying airtroopers, tunneling underminers, and magma troopers who crushed revolts on volcanic mining worlds. That's it. No image, not even the Doran illustration, which would have been erroneous. No Wookieepedia image, either. I have never seen red Stormtroopers in any comic, Marvel or Dark Horse. I have never seen them in any Role-Playing Game supplement, WEG or WotC. The one image I've ever seen of red Stormtroopers in an EU work is that Doran illustration of Royal Guards in red armour. So there is no visual reference for Magmatroopers, and anything put forward (besides the disproved Doran image) is pure fan speculation. That's what I was trying to get across. I know the 501st recognizes red Stormtroopers as Magmatroopers, but calling a tail a leg does not make it so. Red Troopers = SpecOps? Nifty. I'm all in favour. We can call them Isard's Troopers, Intel Troopers, or even SpecOps Royal Guards. I dont care. But Red Troopers = Magmatroopers? Vehemently oppose, as the only evidence available is against that supposition, and no amount of dogma will convince me otherwise. The 501st Council is not infallible. They're humans, just like us. They can make mistakes, just like us. But this is a mistake we can fix and pass along to the Council. --Jonah WOW To many things to write First of all, here is the short Story about Lumiya from Galaxies 3 so we can all read what has been written a long time ago... Second: Jonah I was talking about the story of Issard giving her troopers to Lumiya, not the reference about Royals going into battle (wich was, BTW something i did not know) (thanx for this one!) Third: The armor of the Death Watch, the fraction of Mandalors under the command of Vizsla (Jango Feet Open Seasons) is in fact a mando armor that looks more like a Crimsom Empire Royal Guard armor than like a TK armor. In fact I can see your point about not ben sure that red TK = Magmas, but I also fail to see why not. As I told you guys, I have a huge comic collection, I have been trying to remember a visual reference for the magmas and all that comes to y mind is the picture with Lumiya, so, if anyone else has something different I'll be glad to check and post any other reference.



crazas	Nov 21 2007, 01:49 PM Post #40
Captain of the Guard TX 3758 Posts: 1,056 Group: Supporter Member #228 Joined: November 6, 2006	OK I did my homework yesterday and I found the reference about "red TKs" been called MAGMA TROOPERS in an official Lucas source. Proposed Amendment #2: Prefixes We have recently changed some of the non-armored costume prefixes to better reflect the different costume categories. We also specified what constituted 'Special Ops' troopers and where the various Imperial personnel costumes fell. Mostly, I'd like to have the prefix list added to the charter because people are always asking about it and it would be good to have it referenced there. I don't think it'll change that often so it should be a good reference in the charter. TA Trooper AT-AT TB Trooper Biker TD Trooper Desert Trooper TI Trooper Tie Pilot TK Trooper Stormtrooper TR Trooper Royal TS Trooper Snow TC Clone Troopers (unless another prefix is stated in Episode II) TX Trooper Special Ops (troopers from the Star Wars expanded universe) This includes: * Swamp Trooper: Jedi Knight II - Video Game (not yet released) * Imperial Commando (black biker scout): Star Wars Rebellion � Video Game * Red Troopers (aka Magma Troopers) are referenced but not shown in the Episode IV visual dictionary * Black Troopers (aka Stealth Troopers) are Carnor Jax's personal troopers in Crimson Empire Now all we have to do is find someone who has this Visual Dictionary. BTW, this info came from: History of the 501st Club Charter Revision 1: February 3, 2002



COS_Vader	Nov 21 2007, 03:05 PM Post #41
Detachment Leader Posts: 1,607 Group: Supporter Member #1 Joined: June 1, 2005	COS_Vader Nov 20 2007, 05:31 PM Ref: REYNOLDS David West, Star Wars : The Visual Dictionary, DK Publishing, 1998 Yeah, that's my visual dictionary reference below:



crazas	Nov 21 2007, 03:58 PM Post #42
Captain of the Guard TX 3758 Posts: 1,056 Group: Supporter Member #228 Joined: November 6, 2006	Good DL!! Now you just need to grab an scanner and post the pic



Peregrinus	Nov 21 2007, 06:05 PM Post #43
Advanced Member Posts: 111 Group: Members Member #236 Joined: December 1, 2006	It's a picture of text. lol The entry illustrates some of the biggies that we all know about, like Snowtroopers and Spacetroopers, and has a little text slug that mentions several others that aren't shown. But definitely scan it. Also, the 501st charter... We may be an official Lucas source, but we're all still largely groping in the dark, and just because someone on the Legion Council or otherwise high up in the heirarchy says something doens' tmean it's correct. What you quotes and emphasized about Red Troopers being Magmatroopers is nothing more or less than the common impression in the 501st, based on nothing but that that's the way they've always done it. The Visual Dictionary is what the EU section on Stormtroopers in the online Databank is quoted from. It's the same thing. Even David West Reynolds says nothing about the colour or appearance of Magmatroopers, just that they exist. Right above the Magmatroopers in that rundown of prefixes is the Storm Commando, which the author of that amendment calls out as black Biker Scouts, citing the Star Wars: Rebellion PC game... And we all know my stance on that. Rebellion is one of the earlier sources that got it right and didn't depict them as black Scout Troopers. heh --Jonah



COS_Vader	Nov 21 2007, 06:21 PM Post #44
Detachment Leader Posts: 1,607 Group: Supporter Member #1 Joined: June 1, 2005	Agreed- it's just a mention that they're red Stormtroopers and not a picture. So much for a visual reference guide?



crazas	Nov 22 2007, 02:35 AM Post #45
Captain of the Guard TX 3758 Posts: 1,056 Group: Supporter Member #228 Joined: November 6, 2006	Is there a quote from this source? Because for me Stormtrooper + red = Red stormtrooper. That's why I'm asking for the pic of text or quote.


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