Viewing Single Post From: Yzarc vs Nick

Viewing Single Post From: Yzarc vs Nick
Yzarc	Apr 26 2007, 07:47 PM
Coxian Posts: 3,432 Group: Veteran Member #308 Joined: July 8, 2005	It seems to be pretty popular to start off a debate saying something along these lines: The intro to almost every first debate post at FEF (My Character): A (Good comment that relates to my character) vs. (Your Character): A (Bad comment that relates to your character). I guess I could say Haar is a manly Wyvern Rider and Shinon is gay and has pink hair. But I won't stoop to that level. Nay, I'm going to start off this debate right. Good luck, sir. May the best debater win. It also seems pretty popular to start off the debate with one of two things: Starting stats or ending stats. However, I've concluded that looking at such stats alone is meaningless. Instead, let's start off with something that most people don't even dream of touching until the last post. Supports. Who can Shinon support? Gatrie, Janaff and Rolf. Who can Haar support? Jill and Makalov. Now, I think it goes without saying that Janaff and Rolf suck. I don't even think I have to prove that. They're both on the bottom tier list. Just the same, both Haar and Shinon suck, but my intention is simply to prove that a runthrough using Haar as a Low Tier is better than using Shinon as your Low Tier. That being said, let's make it clear that this particular playthrough is considered a "challenge" runthrough, where you purposefully handicap yourself by using a single Low Tier unit. You COULD add another if you wanted to, but you'd be stupid. That being said, Shinon should not support Janaff and Rolf simply because you shouldn't play the game using both Shinon and either Janaff or Rolf. Pick one Low Tier and stick with it, that's what I always say. Of course, by "always," I mean once, just now. Regardless, Shinon is left with Gatrie and Gatrie has plenty of better options. Astrid and Marcia come to mind. Illyana is also better than Shinon. Shinon MIGHT get a Gatrie support due to both Astrid and Marcia having greater movement but then you look at Astrid's and Marcia's support options. Astrid can support with Makalov, Sothe and Gatrie. She'll want Makalov and Gatrie. Marcia can support with Gatrie, Kieran, Rolf and Tanith. Well, Rolf's out of the question, he's Low Tier. She'll definitely want Kieran and Kieran wants her too. Now it's between Gatrie and Tanith. Tanith is good and has equal range, but there's just something about using both Marcia and Tanith that doesn't suit me right. Regardless, I'll give it to you that Gatrie MIGHT not support Marcia. If that's the case, he'll have an open slot, which Illyana might also take. Worse comes to worse, Shinon supports Gatrie. I will, however, note that Gatrie can support better people. He won't, however, give Shinon the A. So, we've concluded that Shinon can get a B Support with Gatrie and essentially no more. Haar, however, supports Jill and Makalov. Both of these are good units. But, hell, Elincia supports with Ike, that doesn't mean she'll ever support with him, you know what I mean? I'll have to show that Jill and Makalov will both want a Haar support. Jill can support Lethe, Haar and Mist. Mist is fucking good. Jill will support with Mist. Whether or not that is an A or a B is up in the air, because Mist will also want to support Boyd. Boyd is closer to Mist in movement range, so I think we can assume that Mist will go A Boyd, B Jill. Now it's between Lethe or Haar. Well, who is she more likely to be near? Lethe, who has equal movement SPEED, half the time, or Haar, who has equal movement speed, all the time, and can fly over shit like she can. Jill is more likely to be near Haar. She'll give Haar an A Support, easily. But, just to make sure you don't come back and say something like "No, actually, Jill will WANT to be with Lethe," I've decided to show you, statistically, why it's better for Jill to be with Haar, over Lethe. Lethe gives Jill 1 Defense, 15% Hit and 7% Evasion. Haar gives Jill 1 Defense, 7% Hit and 15% Evasion. Now, 8% Evasion > 8% Hit, easily. For that reason, Jill will want to support Haar instead of Lethe. What about Makalov? He can go with Astrid, Haar or Bastian. Well, Bastion blows. He's easily one of the worst characters in the game and Makalov won't even think about touching him. He does, however, have Astrid, who he's likely to A Support with. I can deal with that, because that leaves him with room for a B and Haar fits right in. Haar with an A Support with Jill and a B Support with Makalov (which is easy to make happen) gets 2 Attack, 2 Defense, 2 Resistance, 12% Hit and 25% Evasion. Shinon with a B Support with Gatrie gets 2 Defense, 2 Resistance, 5% Hit and 5% Avoid. They both get the same bonuses, except Haar gets 2 more Attack, 7% more Hit and 20% more evasion. Looking only at supports, Haar wins, significantly. Looking at actual stats now, Haar has a 6.5 lead in HP, a 5.1 lead in Strength, and a 5.6 lead in Defense. Shinon has a 3.7 lead in Skill, 5.1 lead in Speed, 1.8 lead in Res and a 2.3 lead in luck. Shinon's skill and luck amount to about 8.5% in Hit over Haar. However, let's consider that Haar has a 12% Hit boost from supports and Shinon only has a 5% Hit boost. That means Shinon's Hit lead over Haar is about 1.55%, which is completely negligable. Shinon's lead in speed, paired with his lead in luck, amount to 12.5% in evasion. Then we remember that Haar has 25% bonus evasion from supports while Shinon only has 5%. That means that Haar has 20% more evasion than Shinon from supports while Shinon has 12.5% more from stats. That means that, ultimately, Haar will have 7.5% more evasion than Shinon. That means that Shinon's leads amount to 5 more Attack Speed, 16.85% more Crit, 1.55% more hit, 1.8 more Res and a 2.3% better chance to dodge a critical attack. Haar's leads amount to 6.5 more HP, 7.1 more Strength (Support included), 5.6 more Defense, 7.5% more evasion, weapon triangle manipulation (decided to put it in here since I did add Shinon's 15% crit in his leads over Haar). Defensively Haar has 6.5 more HP, 5.6 more Defense and 7.5% more evasion. Shinon has 1.8 more Res and 2.3% better chance to dodge a critical attack. It will take a lot of magic hits for 1.8 more Res to counterbalance 6.5 more HP, and even then, Haar still has ridiculously high Defense and really good evasion. Haar is, undeniably, more durable than Shinon. Offensively This is difficult to say. Shinon has significantly more Attack Speed and Critical strike chance, but Haar deals immensely more damage and has weapon triangle manipulation (Lances and Axes). Both are basically equal on accuracy except that Haar is more likely to have WTA, bringing him up to being actually superior to Shinon here, but when we consider that most bows have more accuracy than most axes, we'll realize that Shinon still has a little bit of accuracy over Haar. However, Haar will consistently be using more powerful weapons than Shinon. A Silver Bow does 13 damage and a Steel Bow does 9. I use those two because they're the two bows that Shinon is most likely to use. A Silver Axe does 16 damage and a Steel Axe does 11. That's 2-3 more damage on top of Haar's 7 point lead. He'll be doing 9-10 more damage than Shinon on any given hit, and has weapon triangle manipulation to perhaps add more to that. And I think that's what I'll leave Post Number One at. Notice I never once pointed out 20/20 stats or beginning stats. I'll leave that shit up to you, or you can just counter all my points. Whatever floats your boat, dog.


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