Viewing Single Post From: Yzarc vs Nick

Viewing Single Post From: Yzarc vs Nick
Nick	Apr 29 2007, 04:29 PM
Brit Posts: 6,491 Group: Judge Member #659 Joined: March 8, 2006	An original layout indeed. Good luck to you too, Yzarc. Quote: Now, I think it goes without saying that Janaff and Rolf suck. I don't even think I have to prove that. They're both on the bottom tier list. Just the same, both Haar and Shinon suck, but my intention is simply to prove that a runthrough using Haar as a Low Tier is better than using Shinon as your Low Tier. That being said, let's make it clear that this particular playthrough is considered a "challenge" runthrough, where you purposefully handicap yourself by using a single Low Tier unit. You COULD add another if you wanted to, but you'd be stupid. Actually, I wouldn't say taking Rolf is "stupid" as such, if you had Shinon on your team. It gives them both a rather nice boost, and the fact that Rolf also boosts the fighting abilities of two other good units adds to his value. Shinon and Rolf supplement each other's fighting abilities nicely, and as they are both backline units, it's hardly creating a hole in your lines. Quote: That being said, Shinon should not support Janaff and Rolf simply because you shouldn't play the game using both Shinon and either Janaff or Rolf. Pick one Low Tier and stick with it, that's what I always say. Of course, by "always," I mean once, just now. Regardless, Shinon is left with Gatrie and Gatrie has plenty of better options. Astrid and Marcia come to mind. Illyana is also better than Shinon. Shinon MIGHT get a Gatrie support due to both Astrid and Marcia having greater movement but then you look at Astrid's and Marcia's support options. Oh, I always seem to address points before they're made. Anyhow, onto Gatrie, I must say that I rather disagree with your statements. Astrid and Marcia may come to mind, but the prospect of a flyer supporting a tank is a bit strong, when Marcia can support Kieran and Tanith and utilise those supports more efficiently. As for Astrid, it's a similar story, she is mounted on a horse and with 3 more movement than Gatrie is likely to be racing ahead of him. I'd say those supports are much, much more unlikely to take effect than Shinon and Gatrie is. As for Illyana, I daresay that she and Gatrie are likely to support, but this leaves Gatrie with Shinon for a B, a B which I'm sure he will take happily. Quote: Marcia can support with Gatrie, Kieran, Rolf and Tanith. Well, Rolf's out of the question, he's Low Tier. She'll definitely want Kieran and Kieran wants her too. Now it's between Gatrie and Tanith. Tanith is good and has equal range, but there's just something about using both Marcia and Tanith that doesn't suit me right. Regardless, I'll give it to you that Gatrie MIGHT not support Marcia. If that's the case, he'll have an open slot, which Illyana might also take. Worse comes to worse, Shinon supports Gatrie. I will, however, note that Gatrie can support better people. He won't, however, give Shinon the A. There I go again, addressing points before they're made. Oh well, what's done is done. Something about Marcia and Tanith that doesn't suit you right? That's hardly an excuse. Your personal preference is not what makes a support viable or not, and Marcia and Tanith is an excellent support for the purposes of the two units and the rather nice boosts it gives. So I'm afraid I'll have to call a void there, no Gatrie with Marcia. Quote: So, we've concluded that Shinon can get a B Support with Gatrie and essentially no more. Actually, you did all the concluding, and we all know that jumping to conclusions does nobody any good at all. Rolf is actually a pretty darned decent sharpshooter with his superb critical ratio, and Shinon and Rolf combined make for a rather good backline. Quote: Jill can support Lethe, Haar and Mist. Mist is fucking good. Jill will support with Mist. Whether or not that is an A or a B is up in the air, because Mist will also want to support Boyd. Boyd is closer to Mist in movement range, so I think we can assume that Mist will go A Boyd, B Jill. Now it's between Lethe or Haar. Well, who is she more likely to be near? Lethe, who has equal movement SPEED, half the time, or Haar, who has equal movement speed, all the time, and can fly over shit like she can. Jill is more likely to be near Haar. She'll give Haar an A Support, easily. I have to say that I disagree with you there. Using your own idea of comparing the boosts units get from one another, I have to say that I think Jill and Mist would rather A support than Mist A support Boyd and Jill A support Haar. The boosts from Jill A Mist are 1 attack, 3 defence and 7 avoid. The boosts from Jill A Haar are 1 defence, 7 accuracy and 15 avoid. The boosts from Mist A Boyd are 3 attack, 1 defence and 7 accuracy. Now, let us see. If we compare Jill A Mist and Jill A Haar first, there is the obvious three point defensive lead over the one point defensive lead. The boost of 1 point of attack, in this instance, is definitely more welcome than the 7 points of accuracy. Which leaves us with the obvious victory for Haar with 15 points of avoid to 7. Two victories to one, my friend, I think Jill would rather A Mist. As for the other support (Mist A Jill or Mist A Boyd), we have the three points of attack beating the one point of attack and the three points of defence beating the one, so they cancel out. We are then left with seven points of avoid to seven points of accuracy, and in your own words (although, I must note, the notion of 8% is incorrect, as decimals are ignored rather than rounded up) "8% Evasion > 8% Hit" or rather, for previously stated reason, "7% Evasion > 7% Hit". So I think I would only give Haar a B with the girl. Malakov I shall give you a B with as well, I agree with you there. Now for some rewording of your paragraphs. Paragraph 1 Haar with a B Support with Jill and a B Support with Makalov gets 2 Defense, 2 Resistance, 10% Hit and 20% Evasion. I wonder where you got the attack from? Neither Wind nor Thunder affinities give any kind of attack, so far as I know. Paragraph 2 Shinon with an A Rolf support and a B Support with Gatrie gets 3 Defense, 3 Resistance, 12% Hit and 20% Avoid. Paragraph 3 They get rather different bonuses, as Shinon gets 1 more defence and 2% more accuracy. Looking only at supports, Shinon wins. Quote: Looking at actual stats now, Haar has a 6.5 lead in HP, a 5.1 lead in Strength, and a 5.6 lead in Defense. Shinon has a 3.7 lead in Skill, 5.1 lead in Speed, 1.8 lead in Res and a 2.3 lead in luck. Shinon's skill and luck amount to about 8.5% in Hit over Haar. However, let's consider that Haar has a 12% Hit boost from supports and Shinon only has a 5% Hit boost. That means Shinon's Hit lead over Haar is about 1.55%, which is completely negligable. Shinon's lead in speed, paired with his lead in luck, amount to 12.5% in evasion. Then we remember that Haar has 25% bonus evasion from supports while Shinon only has 5%. That means that Haar has 20% more evasion than Shinon from supports while Shinon has 12.5% more from stats. That means that, ultimately, Haar will have 7.5% more evasion than Shinon. That means that Shinon's leads amount to 5 more Attack Speed, 16.85% more Crit, 1.55% more hit, 1.8 more Res and a 2.3% better chance to dodge a critical attack. Haar's leads amount to 6.5 more HP, 7.1 more Strength (Support included), 5.6 more Defense, 7.5% more evasion, weapon triangle manipulation (decided to put it in here since I did add Shinon's 15% crit in his leads over Haar). Defensively Haar has 6.5 more HP, 5.6 more Defense and 7.5% more evasion. Shinon has 1.8 more Res and 2.3% better chance to dodge a critical attack. It will take a lot of magic hits for 1.8 more Res to counterbalance 6.5 more HP, and even then, Haar still has ridiculously high Defense and really good evasion. Haar is, undeniably, more durable than Shinon. Offensively This is difficult to say. Shinon has significantly more Attack Speed and Critical strike chance, but Haar deals immensely more damage and has weapon triangle manipulation (Lances and Axes). Both are basically equal on accuracy except that Haar is more likely to have WTA, bringing him up to being actually superior to Shinon here, but when we consider that most bows have more accuracy than most axes, we'll realize that Shinon still has a little bit of accuracy over Haar. However, Haar will consistently be using more powerful weapons than Shinon. A Silver Bow does 13 damage and a Steel Bow does 9. I use those two because they're the two bows that Shinon is most likely to use. A Silver Axe does 16 damage and a Steel Axe does 11. That's 2-3 more damage on top of Haar's 7 point lead. He'll be doing 9-10 more damage than Shinon on any given hit, and has weapon triangle manipulation to perhaps add more to that. Well, I say, I am rather stunned at this large and intimidating looking block of text. Particularly from the man who said "However, I've concluded that looking at such stats alone is meaningless." You have looked at supports, it's true. But then ploughing straight into level 20 stats? You're doing it all wrong, as these stats are only really applicable for a very small portion of the game, and do not reflect much. As such, they possess very little value, as I had believed you thought after reading your comment. I think it would be wiser to go back to these later, after looking at how our heroes fare in-game. Now, when Haar arrives, it's several chapters after Shinon, who is also underlevelled, and I think it's safe to say that Shinon could be at ??/08 - and, of course, given the time he has been there for, have some of those supports you were waffling about earlier. He will, in the space of the time he has been present, have gained an A support with Rolf and a C support with Gatrie. Haar, of course, will have zilch by way of supports. Let's look at actual battle parameters, shall we? Haar will have his Brave Axe, and Shinon . . . well, let's give him a Killer Bow. No expenses spared at this point. Shinon ??/08, A Rolf, C Gatrie, Killer Bow, in one-space proximity of Rolf. HP: 37 Mt: 23 Hit: 131 Crit: 60 AS: 18 Def: 15 Res: 11 Avd: 65 Crit Ev: 12 Haar ??/11, Brave Axe. HP: 47 Mt: 31 (x2) Hit: 109 Crit: 9 AS: 17 Def: 20 Res: 10 Avd: 46 Crit Ev: 12 Well, it certainly looks to be in Haar's favour here. He has rather impressive leads in HP and defence, although Shinon softens the blow slightly by winning by a very small margin on resistance and having a large victory on evade. Offensively . . . Haar will always be striking for lots of damage twice, sometimes four times, whereas Shinon will only attack twice. He does, however, critical very often, and if he only attacks once he will more likely critical than not. He doubles more often than Haar, although it's only a one-point difference. Now, let's fastfoward, assuming that Haar is now at level 15 and Shinon is at level 14. Shinon ??/14, A Rolf, B Gatrie, Killer Bow, in one-space proximity of Rolf. HP: 42 Mt: 26 Hit: 142 Crit: 62 AS: 21 Def: 19 Res: 14 Avd: 76 Crit Ev: 14 Haar ??/15, B Jill B Malakov, Silver Axe. HP: 50 Mt: 39 Hit: 128 Crit: 10 AS: 18 Def: 24 Res: 13 Avd: 69 Crit Ev: 13 Well, Haar still wins defensively with 8 points of HP and 5 points of defence beating Shinon's point of resistance and 8 points of evade. I must concede there. Offensively, however . . . Shinon is more likely to be double attacking, so let us have a look at some scenarios. 1. Shinon and Haar both single attack, Shinon criticals (more likely to than not) Shinon does DOUBLE Haar's damage! The enemy would need 19 defence to bring Shinon's damage down below Haar's here. 2. Neither double, Shinon does not critical. Haar does more damage than Shinon. 3. Shinon double attacks and criticals once, Haar does not double attack. Shinon does, this time, 104 damage to Haar's 39. If an enemy had 22+ defence, Haar would do more damage. 4. They both double attack, Shinon criticals once. Shinon does more base damage, but when factoring defences in, Haar would win. 5. They both double attack, Shinon criticals twice. Shinon does much more damage than Haar in this scenario. An enemy would need 23+ defence in order for Haar to win. 6. Shinon doubles and criticals twice, Haar does not double. Rofl. Shinon owns Haar. Shinon is the winner in the majority of these scenarios. He wins on offense for sure. Haar may win defensively, but who is Shinon most likely to be facing? Enemies with two range, archers, mages etc. as you will have him behind a unit wall. Shinon's resistance is superior. Archers don't do enough to kill him. Haar will be going up against the bulk of the enemy force, facing a larger range of units. Whilst he's all well and good against the normal melee units owing to his good defence, he has a problem with archers and mages. What am I trying to say? Shinon is generally superior defensively against the unit type that they both face, and can strike back against them. Haar is superior . . . oh wait, he's not superior because there aren't units to compare their defenses against in that regard. Haar's defensive lead doesn't count for much. Shinon's offensive lead, of course, counts for a lot. He does more damage than Haar. Shinon is definitely superior at this stage. Looking at their growths, there is not one single growth in which Haar beats Shinon. Shinon also has more levels to grow. Haar won't catch up. Shinon is a better unit than Haar for that reason. Ugh, I had a splitting headache all the way through that post, but it's up. Eat me, Yzarc.
	jesus somebody get onto msn

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