Viewing Single Post From: Yzarc vs Nick

Viewing Single Post From: Yzarc vs Nick
Yzarc	May 1 2007, 07:22 PM
Coxian Posts: 3,432 Group: Veteran Member #308 Joined: July 8, 2005	Quote: Actually, I wouldn't say taking Rolf is "stupid" as such, if you had Shinon on your team. It gives them both a rather nice boost, and the fact that Rolf also boosts the fighting abilities of two other good units adds to his value. Shinon and Rolf supplement each other's fighting abilities nicely, and as they are both backline units, it's hardly creating a hole in your lines. The fact of the matter is, the size of your team is limited. If the only reason you're using Rolf is to essentially supplement Shinon, you're lacking in intelligence. Not only is it redundant to use two archers/snipers at once but you're also using two BAD units at once that, together, make two not-as-bad units. If you ARE going to use Shinon (maybe it was a bet, maybe you did some coke, or maybe you really are just stupid. Whatever floats your boat.) then it's better to have the rest of your team at least competent, which Rolf is not. Not only that, but you're KILLING Rolf by making him support with Shinon. He's a bad unit. He STARTS horribly. He needs supports to bring him to a little bit below par, (up from horribly below par) and he supports Mist really early on. He's also got Marcia as an early support. Now, granted, Marcia's better with others, but if you're gonna use Rolf, you're gonna need to support him. I'm not saying it's a good idea to use him, but I am saying that, if you do, you're gonna give him a support. And Shinon isn't gonna be one of those. And of course you should never use both Rolf and Shinon, both low tier units, in the same game. That's just silly. Quote: Oh, I always seem to address points before they're made. Anyhow, onto Gatrie, I must say that I rather disagree with your statements. Astrid and Marcia may come to mind, but the prospect of a flyer supporting a tank is a bit strong, when Marcia can support Kieran and Tanith and utilise those supports more efficiently. Marcia CAN indeed support Kieran and Tanith. However, Marcia is basically just a superior version of Tanith and using both of them in the same game is a little, uhh...Not good. That's the main reason I said it didn't suit me right. Using two flyers in a game is reasonable, but using two pegasi, units that are made for particular jobs, is a little bit beyond necessary and useful. Quote: As for Astrid, it's a similar story, she is mounted on a horse and with 3 more movement than Gatrie is likely to be racing ahead of him. I'd say those supports are much, much more unlikely to take effect than Shinon and Gatrie is. As for Illyana, I daresay that she and Gatrie are likely to support, but this leaves Gatrie with Shinon for a B, a B which I'm sure he will take happily. As for Astrid, look at HER supports. She has Gatrie, Makalov and Sothe. She's gonna want both Gatrie and Makalov, even if it means staying back once in a while to get the boost from Gatrie (since she's obviously not gonna support with Sothe) If Gatrie supports Illyana and Astrid then he will not have room for Shinon. He will support Astrid because of how good Astrid is and because of how much she needs that support (he's basically her only option for and you even admitted that Gatrie and Illyana will likely support for an A. That leaves Shinon with simply a support with Rolf, and even that, in itself, is a tactical error in that Rolf blows cock. Less cock than Shinon, granted, but why use both? They do the same thing, they are both inferior to the common unit (who is much more deserving to be on your team than either Rolf or Shinon) and they can't support until way late game. This support is only advantageous to Shinon. It hurts Rolf because he can't support anyone better or more useful to him. It hurts the player because you're using two similar and inferior units in place of better ones. This entire support is more detrimental to the player than it is helpful. It's hard enough to argue using ONE Low Tier unit (in your case, Shinon) but you're trying to argue using two? Quote: There I go again, addressing points before they're made. Oh well, what's done is done. Something about Marcia and Tanith that doesn't suit you right? That's hardly an excuse. Your personal preference is not what makes a support viable or not, and Marcia and Tanith is an excellent support for the purposes of the two units and the rather nice boosts it gives. So I'm afraid I'll have to call a void there, no Gatrie with Marcia. What doesn't suit me right about it is that they are two similar units that are both on the same team. The marginal benefit of using pegasi decreases as you add more pegasi. Let me give you the example my Economics teacher gave me. "One time I got in an eating competition. My friend and I were gonna see who could eat the most slices of pizza. So, I ate my first slice. Damn, it was good. Then I ate the second slice. It was also good. But was it as good as the first? No. It was close, but not as good as the first. After a while, I got to my thirty fourth slice. Was that good at all? No. In fact, it was more painful to eat than it was delicious. In the end, I lost. By one slice. But the lesson here still remains. What is the lesson? Never get into an eating competition with an Asian." The lesson was, in fact, about Marginal Benefit and Marginal Cost. See, each slice of pizza you eat is worse than the previous one. And yet they still cost the same. So, efficiently speaking, it's best to only eat one slice because you get the most out of it for your buck. The same applies here. Why use two pegasi when you get the most out of only using one? I mean, yeah, two is definitely BETTER than one, but considering the second one takes up just as much space as a unit that could do a diferent job. The same applies to using two snipers. However, I digress. This is a non-issue anymore considering we've pretty much decided that Gatrie's gonna go Illyana and Astrid. I really just wanted to tell the pizza story. Quote: Actually, you did all the concluding, and we all know that jumping to conclusions does nobody any good at all. Rolf is actually a pretty darned decent sharpshooter with his superb critical ratio, and Shinon and Rolf combined make for a rather good backline. There are better backlines. Much better backlines. I'm not gonna argue with you on the whole Shinon thing. We both recognize that he's a bad unit, that's not what needs proving here. This is a runthrough with a bad unit. But why in the hell are you using an extra bad unit? Rolf ISN'T a darned decent sharpshooter. He's the best sniper in the game, yeah, but considering both of the snipers in the game blow cock, I don't see what your point is. He's got not-shit offense and that's about it. There are better charcters to use if you're looking for offensive attackers. Again, I'm only arguing against using this low tier unit because this ISN'T the one you're trying to argue for. Taking up two team slots (and a lot of experience) for two low tier units is dumb. Quote: Now, let us see. If we compare Jill A Mist and Jill A Haar first, there is the obvious three point defensive lead over the one point defensive lead. The boost of 1 point of attack, in this instance, is definitely more welcome than the 7 points of accuracy. Which leaves us with the obvious victory for Haar with 15 points of avoid to 7. Two victories to one, my friend, I think Jill would rather A Mist. You're right. Jill would rather support Mist than Haar. But who would Mist rather support? Wah! Looks like you're one step ahead of me, you tricky son of a bitch. Quote: As for the other support (Mist A Jill or Mist A Boyd), we have the three points of attack beating the one point of attack and the three points of defence beating the one, so they cancel out. We are then left with seven points of avoid to seven points of accuracy, and in your own words (although, I must note, the notion of 8% is incorrect, as decimals are ignored rather than rounded up) "8% Evasion > 8% Hit" or rather, for previously stated reason, "7% Evasion > 7% Hit". However, what you forget to look at is the stats of the individuals. 8% Evasion is better than 8% Hit (and yeah, I mean 7%, that was a typo) but that is because most units need evasion more than they do accuracy. Boyd really wants a Mist Support. He wants an A, really bad. And I say that because all his other supports suck, except Titania, who runs much faster than him. It also boosts Boyd up to having probably the best offense in the game, providing 3 points of attack, very significant, and filling his only offensive hole, the low accuracy of axes. This makes Boyd an offensive beast. He'll want Mist. But will Mist want him? Let's see. Mist is an offensive beast when she uses the Sonic Sword. She is really bad offensively when using a regular sword, but using a regular sword is the only way to boost her up to being able to use the Sonic Sword. That's a really bad combination unless you can somehow boost up her offense to where she doesn't suck that bad when using a regular sword. OH WAIT, you can. Boyd gives her damage. A good amount. Then she has another flaw in her offense. Her luck is ridiculously poor. It's horrible. Her accuracy kinda bows. But this support fills that. Mist and Boyd also have more similar movement speed than Jill and Mist and are more likely to benefit each other. And then you reword my paragraphs in your favor. What you do is correct my mistake in somehow thinking that Haar got a point of attack in these supports (I was looking at the wrong line), take away a Jill/Haar Support and give Shinon an A Support with Rolf. Now, I feel like I've successfully shown why Shinon should not hae an A support with Rolf and, in this post, I've even shown that Gatrie has better options. That being said, I'm going to take my own paragraphs and change them from what they were originally, correcting my mistake, and fixing a few more things. paragraph 1 Haar with an A Support with Jill and a B Support with Makalov (which is easy to make happen) gets 2 Defense, 2 Resistance, 12% Hit and 25% Evasion. paragraph 2 Shinon gets nada from supports paragraph 3 They both get the same bonuses, except Haar gets 2 more defense and res, 12% more Hit and 25% more evasion. Looking only at supports, Haar wins, significantly. Quote: Well, I say, I am rather stunned at this large and intimidating looking block of text. Particularly from the man who said "However, I've concluded that looking at such stats alone is meaningless." You have looked at supports, it's true. But then ploughing straight into level 20 stats? You're doing it all wrong, as these stats are only really applicable for a very small portion of the game, and do not reflect much. As such, they possess very little value, as I had believed you thought after reading your comment. I think it would be wiser to go back to these later, after looking at how our heroes fare in-game. Indeed, the lategame is a small portion. And yet, I consider it the most important. Everything you do, all the training, all the items, all the bands, every action you perform from the start is essentially a build to the endgame. However, I do recognize that some characters make the midgame a bit more easy that aren't so good endgame. Such a character would be Titania. Shinon does indeed make the very early game a little easier by being able to kill everything, but the beginning is so easy anyway with beasts like Ike, Oscar, Boyd and Soren that you really don't need Shinon, or really even Titania, though she does help at times. Quote: Now, when Haar arrives, it's several chapters after Shinon, who is also underlevelled, and I think it's safe to say that Shinon could be at ??/08 - and, of course, given the time he has been there for, have some of those supports you were waffling about earlier. He will, in the space of the time he has been present, have gained an A support with Rolf and a C support with Gatrie. Haar, of course, will have zilch by way of supports. Unless, of course, you're semi-intelligent and decide it's best not to use both Rolf and Shinon and you decide that Gatrie has better supports. In that scenario, Shinon and Haar both have zilch by way of supports. Shinon level 8, Killer Bow HP: ~37 Damage: ~23 Accuracy: ~121% Critical: 55% AS: 20 Evasion: ~48% Def: 12.5 Res: 8.8 CEV: 11.5 Haar level 11, Brave Axe HP: 47 Damge: 31 Accuracy: 115% Critical: 9.5% AS: 17 Evasion: 46 Def: 20 Res: 10 CEV: 12 Hmm. I think you said it best. You Well, it certainly looks to be in Haar's favour here. He has rather impressive leads in HP and defence, although Shinon softens the blow slightly by winning by a very small margin on resistance and having a large victory on evade. Offensively . . . Haar will always be striking for lots of damage twice, sometimes four times, whereas Shinon will only attack twice. He does, however, critical very often, and if he only attacks once he will more likely critical than not. He doubles more often than Haar, although it's only a one-point difference. Except this time Shinon only has about a 2% victory on evade. He doesn't double more, Haar will either double the same amount as Shinon or he quadruples, since you were kind enough to give him the Brave Axe. Haar easily wins offensively and defensively, especially since you went ahead and gave him the Brave Axe. Quote: Well, Haar still wins defensively with 8 points of HP and 5 points of defence beating Shinon's point of resistance and 8 points of evade. I must concede there. Offensively, however . . . Shinon is more likely to be double attacking, so let us have a look at some scenarios. Except this time let's remember that Haar doesn't have a problem getting an A Support with Jill, Gatrie has Astrid and Illyana and the player isn't stupid enough to use both Rolf and Shinon. Shinon, Killer Bow, level 14 HP: 42 Damage: 26 Accuracy: 130 Crit: 57 AS: 21 Evasion: 56 Def:16 Res: 11 CEV: 14 Haar, Silver Axe, level 15, B Jill, B Makalov (Let's say he doesn't have his A with Jill yet) HP: 50 Mt: 39 Hit: 128 Crit: 10 AS: 18 Def: 24 Res: 13 Avd: 69 Crit Ev: 13 Defensively: Haar has 8 HP, 8 Defense, 2 Res and 13% Evasion. Offensively: Haar has 13 damage. Defensively: Shinon has 1 CEV Offensively: Shinon has 3 AS, 47% Crit and 2% Accuracy. All of Shinon's leads except the Attack speed and crit are negligible, while al of Haar's are significant. How do you balance it? Shinon's leads are all offensive, while Haar does have a damn significant offensive lead in damage. Haar takes the cake defensively, easily, and Shinon massively outdoes Haar in crit and will double more often. However, we then remember why Shinon wins so hardcore in Crit. There are two reasons. 1. He is using a Killer Bow. Killer Bows have 10 less uses than Silver Axes and cost 20 more gold per use. 2. He is a sniper. He gets a crit boost of 15% over a secondary weapon. Is that good or bad? Well, honestly, I prefer Haar's ability to manipulate the weapon triangle, which you can't really analyze statistically. You just have to recognize that Haar's abilities go further than simple battle stats. He also has a wider variety of weapons, he can get WTA more often than not, and he can fly over shit and at great ranges. Shinon? He can attack stuff. WEEE! Quote: Haar may win defensively, but who is Shinon most likely to be facing? Enemies with two range, archers, mages etc. as you will have him behind a unit wall. Shinon's resistance is superior. Archers don't do enough to kill him. Haar will be going up against the bulk of the enemy force, facing a larger range of units. Whilst he's all well and good against the normal melee units owing to his good defence, he has a problem with archers and mages. So, Shinon is superior defensively because he hides behind the lines? No. All that means is that his ONLY purpose is to deal the mediocre damage that he does. So he doubles more often than Haar? That doesn't mean he's good offensively. If his only purpose is to deal damage then you can literally put almost any unit in his place and they'll likely be better, but they can also take some damage. Quote: Shinon is definitely superior at this stage. You're wrong. He is not the winner defensively just because he hides behind the lines. He's at less risk, yeah, but is it really worth considering him for a team if ALL he can do is help deal damage? Haar can sure as hell deal damage, but he can also take some hits. A lot of hits. He has ridiculously high evasion, almost enough to consider him a dodge tank, paired with high enough defense and HP to make him a regular tank. Haar is definitely superior defensively and your argument about Shinon being better because he hides is completely backwards logic. Quote: Looking at their growths, there is not one single growth in which Haar beats Shinon. Shinon also has more levels to grow. Haar won't catch up. Catch up? First of all, Haar still has one more Jill Support to catch up on, providing another 2% Accuracy and 5% Evasion. Second of all, he's clearly superior to Rolf at this point. Clearly. I think you'll agree with me here. If you don't, then...Uh...You're stupid. Or something. Quote: Eat me, Yzarc. I don't even know how to take that. Usually girls say that, and thy are referring to their vaginas. Unless you actually want me to take a bite out of a part of your body...In which case, which part? I don't eat toes. It's sort of a policy.


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