Viewing Single Post From: Sentenal vs Nintend-fan

Viewing Single Post From: Sentenal vs Nintend-fan
*Sentenal*	May 8 2007, 05:07 PM
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat. Posts: 15,633 Group: FEFF Emperor Member #1 Joined: May 16, 2005	K, since we sorta figured out Rhys' averages suck, lets modify EFED's averages a bit, like how Rekkien suggested. Quote: HP: 38.0 STR: 2.7 MAG: 29.8 SKL: 21.9 SPD: 20.9 DEF: 10.7 RES: 29.9 LCK: 24.5 K. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Quote: Rhys has his pitfalls, but he makes up for them with the 5th highest MAG (or STR for the melee units) in the game, losing only to Tibarn and Giffca (two of the 3 Gatos) and Boyd and Largo (the two powerful axemen). Rhys is also sporting excellent RES and LCK, and he has average SKL and SPD. Pitfalls, yes... Pits sorta like that one in 300. A bigass pit. Yes, Rhys' MAG is one of the highest. But guess what? He has the second worst HP stat in the game. He only beats Sothe in HP, and thats only because Sothe doesn't promote. Well, I guess he beats Reyson too, but he isn't a combat unit. How bout DEF? He only beats Soren, Illyana, Mist (barely), and Sothe (barely). And the non-combat unit Reyson, but we really won't be considering him, since he doesn't fight. And when you consider supports, Soren gets 22 avoid from Ike, and Mist gets 3 DEF and 7 avoid from Jill. So, I think we can safely put Soren and Mist as more durable units than Rhys. And with Rhys only beating TWO units, and one that can't even PROMOTE. Rhys's DEF SUCKS. Rhys' avoid isn't even that great. Rhys loses 3 AS from a Shine Tome, which would his AS at 18~. Gives him about 60.5 avoid. No one really wants to support Rhys, so he isn't getting any supports. To give you an idea about how his avoid looks, it is only 15~ more than Tauroneo's avoid. And Tauroneo doesn't dodge. So, you have yourself one of the most fragile units in the entire game. His HP and DEF aren't just pitfalls. They are bottemless pits of suck. Also, quick point or two: Yes, Rhys has high MAG. Light Tomes are also weak as shit. 2 might Light? 4 might Shine? On top of that, Rhys' AS is mediocre at BEST, subpar at worst. He isn't any offense machine. Quote: Meanwhile, we have Tauroneo, who seems to be lacking in the SPD and LCK departments, and only makes up for this with slightly above average STR and DEF. Everything else about him is just… average. For the purposes of a Tank, Tauroneo's base stats are excellent. He sports good HP, excellent DEF, good STR, good SKL, good RES (I don't see how you can call 14 base RES average), average LUK. He only has SPD problems, and that isn't nearly as fatal as your HP/DEF problems. Quote: Rhys is only losing 2 AS from a Heal Staff at most, and pre-promotion, he isn’t even fighting anyway. A difference of 2 AS isn’t much when we’re only considering it for when enemies attack him. That Heal Staff isn’t exactly a big concern for Rhys. 2 AS is alot when you hardly have any SPD to begin with. We are putting his base SPD at what, 5~ or something? That gives Rhys a nice 3 AS with a Heal Staff. A unit would only need 7 AS to double him! Rhys isn't fighting, but since he is a healer, he is a high priority target, and being as weak as he is, is hurt. What are you going to do about Cavaliers with Javelins? Or Archers? I know! Hes gonna get pwned! Just because Rhys doesn't attack, doesn't mean things won't attack him. He is a liability. Quote: Now about that Mend Staff… Rhys is only losing 1 point of AS from it at 20/20. Again, not a huge deal. Besides, when you’re healing roughly 40 damage with a Heal Staff, do you really need a Mend? Suit yourself, don't use mend. Quote: As far as Light magic is concerned, again, he’s only really dealing with the lightest variety. (no pun intended) Lightning has a WT of 4. Heavy? Not really, considering Taurioneo’s Iron Lance weighs 8. At 20/1, Rhys has about 2 STR, so he’s losing 2 AS. Again, not a huge deal, since it isn’t much of a difference maker. And even if it does prevent Rhys from getting the DA on a few occasions, he’s still hammering away at 23 base damage, against the enemy’s lower RES. By 20/20, Rhys is losing only 1 AS from Lightning, so he’s still got 19 SPD against Taureneo’s 15. That’s still a notable difference; enough to allow Rhys to DA Tauroneo, should that be possible. When your unit has a base STR value of 22, nothing is heavy. When you have 3 STR at 20/20, yes, things like Light Tomes are heavy as hell. At 20/1, Rhys loses 2 AS from a Light Tome. That gives him an AS of 11~. Yeah, he IS hurting from that. Rhys' SPD is mediocre at BEST, and that is without him being weighted down. He will hardly be doubling crap with an AS like, that, and when he would only get 23~ Attack from using it, he almost isn't even WORTH using as an offensive unit. Tauroneo's SPD is terrible. Saying "I have 4 more SPD than terrible" doesn't mean you have good AS, or anything like it. You want to know units with good AS values? Ike, with 28~ AS. Oscar, with 25~ AS. Shinon, with 25~ AS. Soren, with 24~ AS (loses about 1 from Elfire). Rolf's 26~ AS. Volke's 30~ AS. Kieran's 25~ AS. Jill's 25~ AS. I think you get the picture. Those are good AS values. Even great AS values. However, Rhys' 19~ AS doesn't compare to them. For example, lets take an endgame chapter, Chapter 26. The one with Bertram. Rhy would be level 20/15 by then, with 19~ SPD, and wiht a light tome, that comes down to 17-18 AS, and 14-15 AD with a Shine tome. AS Values of that chapter: Average Swordmaster Attack Speed: 22 Average Warrior Attack Speed: 14 Average Tiger Attack Speed: 16 Average Cat Attack Speed: 17 Average Sniper Attack Speed: 15 Average Sage Attack Speed: 15 Average General Attack Speed: 8 Average Bishop Attack Speed: 11 Average Halberdier Attack Speed: 15 Average Wyvern Attack Speed: 13 Average Paladin Attack Speed: 17 Bertram's Attack Speed: 22 So... With a Shine tome, you double nothing save Generals and Bishops. With a Light tome, you double nothing other than Generals, Wyverns, Bishops, and MAYBE Warriors. So, yeah, your AS isn't great, Rhys is below average at best in offense. Quote: 37 HP and 11 DEF is enough to prevent Rhys from getting OHKOed, considering you’d need a melee unit with at least 48 attacking power for that to happen. Rhys isn’t exactly getting DAed either, so he’s fine with taking one or two distance attacks per turn behind the frontlines. Consider this situation. A Paladin runs up, and hits Rhys with a bow, and runs away. Beastly mounted advantage. Rhys isn't OHKOed, true. But with his HP and DEF, he is getting close to it. Now, the next paladin runs up, and does the same. And it doesn't even have to be a bow. It could be a Javelin. Or a hand-axe. So no, he isn't fine. If he gets attacked once, he is in the red zone, and if attacked twice, maybe dead. Quote: Also, the majority of distance attackers you face will be magical units, and Rhys is a magical tank. Therefore, he is survivable enough while working behind the frontlines. Actually, no. That is false. Magic users are always the minority. This game is no exception (and my limited playthroughs lead me to believe they are even less common than others). Paladins can use Bows. Javelins are common. Horses with Bows/Javelins, and Wyverns with Javelins are alot more common than magic users. Quote: Notably, there are plenty of people that have roughly the same durability as Rhys, namely Soren, Mist, and Ilyana. And of course, there’s Reyson, who has the worst HP/DEF combination in the entire game. Not everyone can be a tank, you know. Soren gets tons of avoid from Ike Support, plus is better all around than Rhys. Mist is a better unit that Rhys, and IS more durable than him when you consider supports. Illyana sucks, good job. Having the same HP/DEF as some of the most fragile units in the game doesn't make Rhys magically, all the sudden, durable. Quote: Class-wise, Tauroneo has to compete with Gatrie and Brom for a spot on your roster. Tauroneo’s main use is tanking, yet… both Gatrie and Brom are outdoing him in that department. Sure, Tauroneo is survivable, but why would you ever use him over Gatrie or Brom, the better choices for a tank. Why use Rhys over Soren, Tormod, Mist, or Calill? All those units are better magic users. And don't give me this crap about "Omg LIGHT MAGIC!!" Light Magic just happens to be a crappy version of anima magic. Your class hurts you more than anything. At least Tauroneo being a General allows him Lances and Swords. So why would you use Rhys over any of those BETTER units? What if you didn't get a good Gatrie or Brom? What if you didn't want to use them? Well, Tauroneo is there for that. Excellent base stats, excellent weapon levels, best skill in the game. Quote: 40% isn’t really too shaky growth-wise, and Rhys still gets a decent amount of HP in the end. In the end, he’s only 1 point behind Mist. That’s not so bad, is it? When he has one of the worst HP stats in the game, yes, it is. Quote: Yeah, well Heal has a weight of 2. Even if he winds up with 0 STR at level 20, Rhys is barely affected by his low growth. On promotion, he gains 1 point of STR, so the worst case scenario is that Rhys loses 3 AS from Lightning. Not exactly a catastrophe. Although, it’s likely that he might have gained at least 1 more point of STR after 20 levelups, so this brings us back to the same situation as the Heal Staff: a loss of 2 AS. Even with a raped STR stat, Rhys is still performing his job effectively with minimal losses. NO he is NOT. If Rhys gets in the worst case scenario of 1 STR at 20/20 (very possible with 5% growth), he would lose 5 AS from Shine, and 3 AS from Light. That would give him 18 AS at 20/20, which will prevent him from consistantly doubling. Face it, your SPD isn't good enough for you to be a good offensive unit. Quote: 25% is a decent one-in-four chance for a point of DEF upon leveling up. Plus, the Knight Band is always an option. Oh, and did I mention that Mist’s growth in DEF is 15%. Hmm, which one of these two has a more rapeable DEF stat? Who in their right mind would give Rhys the Knight Band? And LOL I didn't know we were debating Mist! Okay, her DEF is more rapable! Doesn't mean that Rhys' isn't lol Quote: I beg to differ. If Rhys’s SPD is kinda rapeable, then Tauroneo’s is certainly shaky, with a growth 10% less than Rhys’s. Rhys winds up with higher AS, so if you want to argue that he won’t be doubling, then I can shoot right back that Tauroneo won’t either, and it’s entirely possible that if Rhys doesn’t double attack, then with 4 AS less when both are at 20/20, Tauroneo is actually being double attacked. Not only does Tauroneo have less of a SPD growth, but he also has less levels to grow, which means less chances at gaining a point of SPD. Yeah? Tauroneo's purpose is to be a tank, a defensive unit, not an offensive unit. Rhys... Well, he is a terrible defensive unit. So, in order for him to have use, he would have to be a good offensive unit, right? Well, with Rhys' SPD, he isn't. But lol yeah you have better SPD than Tauroneo. Because, that actually matters or something. Oh wait, it doesn't... Quote: That’s great and all, but once you finish Chapter 21, Tauroneo has no business using a Silver Blade, since there’s still a good amount of chapters left before the final battle, where you really need that Silver Blade. If you want to argue swords, it’s more likely that Tauroneo will be using an Iron Sword, or maybe a Steel Sword. An Iron Sword will put base Tauroneo at 27 POW, 10 less than what he had with the Silver Blade. Ummm Iron Weapons don't exist anymore at that point in the game. Two reasons for this: You have no funds Rank. Steel Swords would be the lowest he would go. And since you have no Funds rank to worry about, you can by more expensive weapons, and BUY more expensive weapons. CON=STR, in regards to weight. You use Iron weapons in GBA games because of funds, yes, but also because more expensive weapons slow you down. Not in this game, at this point. Tauroneo can use any Sword or Lance he wants, for the most part. So, I'll keep my WTFPWNAGE Silver Blade and Spear. Quote: Rhys has more attacking power than Iron Sword Tauroneo, or even Iron Lance Tauroneo, and that’s BEFORE we factor in that Rhys attacks RES. Factor DEF vs. RES, and Rhys probably has more attacking power than Tauroneo attacking with a Steel weapon, even. Also, this gap only widens as the two are leveling, considering that Rhys’s MAG growth is higher than Tauroneo’s STR growth, so Rhys is consistently out-damaging Tauroneo throughout the game. It’s funny that you brought up AS here, because even though Rhys is weighed down by Lightning, he STILL has more AS than base Tauroneo. Another win for Rhys. Good job on missing the point. Iron Weapons don't exist. Tauroneo is using high powered weapons, so his base ATK is more than Rhys'. FACT. Rhys will barely be outdamaging Tauroneo. And neither unit has good enough AS to double. Sorry. You are barely outdamaging Tauroneo. Tauroneo isn't a good offensive unit. Rhys is only marginally better than Tauroneo in offensive. This means Rhys isn't a good offensive unit. Quote: He’s a general, Rhys is a healer. What can I say? The only argument to this I can really think of is that Tauroneo can’t heal. >.< Whatever, more on that later. So we agree that Rhys sucks in both Offense and Defense now. Good. Quote: Sure, but Tauroneo’s a tank. His HP isn’t dropping below 50% often, and by that point, you’d probably want to heal him. YAY! So Tauroneo never dies! You can send him anywhere, and he tanks excellently! This means he can survive nearly any situation! Or, when Resolve turns on, Tauroneo ass rapes things. Either way, good shit for Tauroneo. Quote: Wait… what? Rhys comes with Serenity, a skill that halves the effects of biorhythm. Now, from what I gathered from a thread on the FE9 board, Biorhythm changes each chapter. When your biorhythm is high, you gain +5 HIT and +5 EVA, which is kinda nice. However, when the biorhythm is down, you lose –5 HIT and –5 EVA. So, thanks to Serenity, Rhys isn’t getting screwed over when his biorhythm is low, but he still gets smaller bonuses when his biorhythm is high. What did you read that told you that Rhys had Counter? Because I’d advise not using that source, since it obviously has errors in it. http://www.eaichu250.superbusnet.com/FE9/f...aracterdata.php EFED. And... Uhhh, sure even if I got the skill wrong, Serenity is an even worse Skill. Rhys has decent SKL and decent accuracy of Light magic means he probably won't be missing, even with -5 from Biorythems. So, okay, you can have a TERRIBLE, USELESS skill. That is fine with me. The point that Tauroneo's Skill>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rhys' skill is only more apparent now. Quote: Yeah, but in Chapter 21, Rhys has 21.6 SKL, along with 29.9 POW, and 16 AS. Tauroneo with an Iron Sword has 38 POW instead of 48. Factor in DEF vs. RES, and Rhys is keeping up in the damage-dealing department. Both are hitting reliably, so Tauroneo’s SKL lead means next to nothing. And Rhys is only barely trailing in AS. Besides, you aren’t getting these bonuses very often anyway, since Tauroneo has a tough time losing HP. Invalid point, because Iron Weapons are no longer in use by this point in the game. Tauroneo is using high powered weapons. And yeah, Tauroneo has a tough time losing HP! YES, Tauroneo is such a good tank. Thanks for agreeing with me. Must be hard to be in your position. Either, Tauroneo tanks everything excellently, or Tauroneo's beastly Resolve activates. Win-Win situations for me pwn. Quote: If he has 22 DEF and 14 RES, how did he get below half HP anyway? The way I figure, Resolve isn’t exactly suited for Tauroneo. You could just bench him, and give the scroll to like… Nephenee, or something. I dunno. Dragons, Tigers, hard hitting Wyverns, things of that nature. You know, enemies that are really beastly. Beastly enemies bring out Tauroneo's BEAST MODE. For example, when one of these enemies makes Tauroneo go beast mode, he would have 62~ ATK on a Laguz, with a Laguz Lance. He becomes one your hardest hitting unit. Quote: At least his Occult Skill is useful. You’d have to remove Resolve to be able to give Tauroneo an Occult, and Luna isn’t exactly useful. Tauroneo isn’t getting an Occult either. Good, I don't want an Occult. Let me keep my Resolve, its better by far. Quote: It’s a real shame that Tauroneo has a tough time keeping up with the rest of your army, due to his lower MOV. You’d have to baby him to get him to the frontlines, thus slowing down the rest of your army. Sure, the same can be said for Rhys, but we aren’t trying to keep Rhys on the frontlines anyway, so it doesn’t really matter for him. Tauroneo's 6 MOV, and no Tactics Rank, allows Tauroneo to keep up on the frontlines easily. And if Rhys wants do do something, he has to be on the row behind the 'frontlines'. So if neither of us can keep up, neither of us can do anything. Quote: Exaggeration, much? Rhys has enough durability to take at least one hit during the Enemy Phase, and usually that’s all he’ll have to worry about, since he’s behind the frontlines anyway. Rhys is durable enough to survive behind the frontlines. lol I would HOPE he is durable to take at least one hit. But thing is, with Paladins and Wyverns having mounted advantage, and ranged weapons like Bows and Javelins being out there, Rhys is gonna have a hard time living. Mounted advantage means more than one attack per enemy turn, possibily. Quote: Look, Tauroneo isn’t using his Silver Blade once chapter 21 ends, so it’s really attacking DEF 4 times with a POW of 27 vs. attacking RES twice with a POW base of 30. Rhys also has a fair chance of doubling, at least moreso than Tauroneo. So Rhys is keeping up in dealing damage, but Tauroneo isn’t keeping up with the frontline units. Both invalid points, addressed above. Quote: That statement pretty much contradicts everything you said about Resolve, because Tauroneo has a tough time getting to half HP, because he doesn’t die. You die when you get to 0 HP, not 25. And that is about the HP range Tauroneo has to be to use Resolve. So no, it doesn't contradict it. Quote: At least Rhys uses Serenity. (not Counter) Tauroneo has a tough time activating Resolve. "At least Rhys has worthless skill!" lol Quote: The way I see it, Tauroneo sees combat twice as much as Rhys, IF he can stay on the frontlines. Rhys also deals more damage per attack. Rhys isn't doubling all that often, so nah, Tauroneo attacks 4 times as much. Address above. Quote: For starters, earlygame Rhys is unique. Nobody else can do what he does for 7 chapters out of 33. (counting the Prologue, Epilogue, and each part of chapter 17) Rhys has guaranteed use from chapter 2 through chapter 9, and perhaps even after that. Meanwhile, Tauroneo has no uniqueness at all when he arrives, and no reason to be used over Gatrie and Brom. More than likely, he’ll be benched after chapter 21. For starters, earlygame Ellen is unique. Nobody else can do what she does for 2 chapters out of 31. (counting gaidens) Ellen has guaranteed use from chapter 2 through chapter 4, and perhaps even after that. Meanwhile, Miledy has no uniqueness at all when she arrives, and no reason to be used over Bors and Barth. More than likely, she’ll be benched after chapter 13. </satire> Yeah, so you are earlygame healer. Once Mist comes, Rhys' uniqueness is gone. Once your mages promote, Rhys' uniqueness is even lower. Quote: The main thing about Rhys is… he heals. Pre-promotion, only one other unit can do Rhys’s job, and she arrives later, and underleveled. You always want to have a healer in your party, so Rhys has a good chance of seeing use, even after chapter 9. Also, Rhys is the one unit in the game that uses Light magic. So if you want Light magic, you’re using Rhys, no buts about it. Rhys is incredibly unique, and has a lot of utility. Wait, what? Did you forget about Sages? Sages get Staves on promotion. So, yeah, even less uniqueness for you. So lets look at it this way. You would only need two healers at the MOST, on the hardest chapters. And for that, you have Mist and Soren. Sorry, Rhys aren't unique enough to use. And Light magic sucks. Anima>>>>>Light. Anima has effective bonuses, and most of it is stronger. So, Rhys is 'unique'. That doesn't make him good. It doesn't make him decent. It means you use him while you have two, then bench him for Mist. Defensively, Tauroneo RAPES Rhys. Offensively, both units are bad, but Rhys is slightly better. Well, at least when Resolve isn't active, then Tauroneo RAPES Rhys in offensive. And then Rhys is your only healer for 7 chapters. Do that really make him a good unit? Nah.


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