Viewing Single Post From: Sentenal vs Nintend-fan

Viewing Single Post From: Sentenal vs Nintend-fan
Nin-Finity	May 9 2007, 03:20 PM
Nintend-Fan Posts: 410 Group: FEFFer Member #735 Joined: April 22, 2006	Sentenal Yes, Rhys' MAG is one of the highest. But guess what? He has the second worst HP stat in the game. MAG has nothing to do with HP, so let’s not abruptly change topics to make Rhys look bad. Rhys has a solid lead of 4.5 MAG over Tauroneo’s STR, kthx. NOW we can move on. Sentenal He only beats Sothe in HP, and thats only because Sothe doesn't promote. Well, I guess he beats Reyson too, but he isn't a combat unit. Rhys isn’t exactly a heavy combat unit either, since his main function is healing, so don’t use that excuse for Reyson. You pointed out that Rhys only BEATS 2 units in the HP department, but you need to take some other things into account: -Soren has only 1.1 more HP than Rhys. -Illyana and Bastion only beat Rhys by .9. -Mist ties Rhys in HP. -Tormod only has a 2 HP lead. -Calil beats Rhys by only 1 point. -Elincia only has a lead of .4. That’s a lot of other people in Rhys’s HP range. Rhys’s HP is among the worst in the game… but many other units share that same HP range, which goes to show you that Rhys isn’t as bad off as you originally thought. Sentenal How bout DEF? He only beats Soren, Illyana, Mist (barely), and Sothe (barely). And the non-combat unit Reyson, but we really won't be considering him, since he doesn't fight. And when you consider supports, Soren gets 22 avoid from Ike, and Mist gets 3 DEF and 7 avoid from Jill. Avoid =/= Defense, kthx. We can talk about Soren’s avoid later, but that doesn’t change the fact that Rhys beats him in defense. Notice something: all the people Rhys beats in DEF are his competition on your roster. If he’s beating all them and being more durable, that’s one more reason to be using him. Sentenal So, I think we can safely put Soren and Mist as more durable units than Rhys. And with Rhys only beating TWO units, and one that can't even PROMOTE. Rhys's DEF SUCKS. Soren and Mist barely have leads over Rhys, and that still leaves Illyana, Sothe, and Reyson, who are three units, not two. For our purposes, Reyson should count in this comparison, because both him and Rhys are utility units, not heavy combat fighters. Sentenal Rhys' avoid isn't even that great. Rhys loses 3 AS from a Shine Tome, which would his AS at 18~. That’s still enough to DA a good amount of enemies; more than Tauroneo at least. Sentenal No one really wants to support Rhys, so he isn't getting any supports. O RLY? Let’s look at Rhys’s support roster: -Kieran, Rolf, Titania, Ulki, Mia Kieran isn’t supporting Rhys, since he wants Oscar and Marcia. Rolf is a viable option for Rhys, since his only other options are Shinon, Marcia, Mist, and Tauroneo. You probably aren’t using Shinon if you’re using Rolf in the first place, so the two of them probably won’t support. Marcia is a bad option for Rolf. Tauroneo comes way too late; by then, Rhys can have A Rolf if he wants. That leaves Mist, who still has room to support Rolf, even if Rhys does. Titania supports Boyd, Ike, Rhys, and Mist. Ike won’t have room on his roster to support Titania, since he wants A Soren B Oscar. Mist will probably support Jill, and Boyd, Rolf, and Mordecai are all more likely choices for her than Titania. Titania might want Boyd, but a Rhys support is welcome too. Ulki has barely any support options, and Boyd definitely won’t support him, so that’s another option open to Rhys if he wants it. Mia’s only other options are Illyana and Largo. She certainly doesn’t want Largo, so that’s yet another option open to Rhys. Rhys can probably get A Titania, and a B with either Mia or Rolf. Rolf offers better bonuses for Rhys, so let’s go with him for B support. Rhys’s bonuses from this setup are: ATK: 2 DEF: 1 ACC: 25 AVO: 5 Rhys becomes even more of an offensive powerhouse, with slightly fortified defenses. Tauroneo, on the other hand, has the following roster: -Largo, Rolf It’s a pretty pathetic roster. Rolf doesn’t want Tauroneo because he’s too busy supporting Rhys and… someone not named Tauroneo. That leaves Largo. Largo would prefer A Muarim, probably, so that leaves room for Tauroneo to get a B support with him, with the following bonuses: DEF: 1 ACC: 5 AVO: 10 Rhys is the clear winner in supports. Sentenal So, you have yourself one of the most fragile units in the entire game. His HP and DEF aren't just pitfalls. They are bottemless pits of suck. Yeah, “one of” the most fragile units. Most of the other mages are in the same boat. Sentenal For the purposes of a Tank, Tauroneo's base stats are excellent. He sports good HP, excellent DEF, good STR, good SKL, good RES (I don't see how you can call 14 base RES average), average LUK. For the purposes of a Tank, Tauroneo is completely beaten by Gatrie and Brom at the same level: --/14 Tauroneo HP: 48 STR: 22 MAG: 11 SKL: 18 SPD: 13 DEF: 22 RES: 14 LCK: 14 20/14 Gatrie HP: 52.8 STR: 27.6 MAG: 3.2 SKL: 21.2 SPD: 13.0 DEF: 28.2 RES: 10.2 LCK: 11.0 Tauroneo wins in MAG, RES, LCK. Gatrie wins in… everything else. SPD is a tie. Gatrie is the clear winner. Now, here’s Brom: 20/14 Brom HP: 49.8 STR: 24.2 MAG: 5.5 SKL: 23.4 SPD: 15.2 DEF: 27.2 RES: 11.2 LCK: 9.0 Same as Tauro vs. Gatrie, except this time, Tauroneo fails to even tie in SPD. He has leads in MAG, RES, and LCK, but Brom wins EVERYWHERE ELSE. With two other, superior tanks readily available, there’s no reason for Tauroneo to exist on your roster, good bases or no. Sentenal Rhys isn't fighting, but since he is a healer, he is a high priority target, and being as weak as he is, is hurt. What are you going to do about Cavaliers with Javelins? Or Archers? I know! Hes gonna get pwned! Just because Rhys doesn't attack, doesn't mean things won't attack him. He is a liability. Keep him out of range of enemies, it isn’t difficult in the earlier chapters where his defenses make him a liability. In the lategame, he has the stamina to take one or two melee attacks, not to mention his magical tanking abilities. Sentenal Suit yourself, don't use mend. Rhys doesn’t have to, when he heals roughly 40 HP with a Heal at 20/20. There’s virtually no use for a Mend with Rhys’s phenomenal MAG, which is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Sentenal When your unit has a base STR value of 22, nothing is heavy. When you have 3 STR at 20/20, yes, things like Light Tomes are heavy as hell. When you only lose 1 AS… not really. Rhys prefers healing anyway. Sentenal Tauroneo's SPD is terrible. Saying "I have 4 more SPD than terrible" doesn't mean you have good AS, or anything like it. You want to know units with good AS values? Ike, with 28~ AS. Oscar, with 25~ AS. Shinon, with 25~ AS. Soren, with 24~ AS (loses about 1 from Elfire). Rolf's 26~ AS. Volke's 30~ AS. Kieran's 25~ AS. Jill's 25~ AS. I think you get the picture. Those are good AS values. Even great AS values. However, Rhys' 19~ AS doesn't compare to them. Last time I checked, this was Rhys vs. Tauroneo, not Rhys vs. everyone. All those AS values hardly matter in this debate when Rhys STILL DAs more than Tauroneo. Yet another reason to use him over the overshadowed tank. Sentenal For example, lets take an endgame chapter, Chapter 26. The one with Bertram. Rhy would be level 20/15 by then, with 19~ SPD, and wiht a light tome, that comes down to 17-18 AS, and 14-15 AD with a Shine tome. AS Values of that chapter: Average Swordmaster Attack Speed: 22 Average Warrior Attack Speed: 14 Average Tiger Attack Speed: 16 Average Cat Attack Speed: 17 Average Sniper Attack Speed: 15 Average Sage Attack Speed: 15 Average General Attack Speed: 8 Average Bishop Attack Speed: 11 Average Halberdier Attack Speed: 15 Average Wyvern Attack Speed: 13 Average Paladin Attack Speed: 17 Bertram's Attack Speed: 22 Lol @ Inui using this same data to prove that Rhys has decent AS. Anyways, what’s doubling Rhys? Only Swordmasters… and Bertram, but that doesn’t concern Rhys, since he has huge RES against Bertram’s Runesword. Against all non-Swordmaster enemies, Rhys is doing fine. How does that make him terrible? (Tauroneo is getting doubled by Swordmasters, Cats, Paladins, and Bertram, and only doubles the other Generals. Rhys does way better) Sentenal A Paladin runs up, and hits Rhys with a bow, and runs away. Beastly mounted advantage. Rhys isn't OHKOed, true. But with his HP and DEF, he is getting close to it. Now, the next paladin runs up, and does the same. If you see two Bow Knights near your frontlines, why the hell would you be stupid enough to put Rhys in range of BOTH? Look, most distance attackers will be: -Foot units that will attack once and be unable to move away afterwards. -Magical units that just tink against Rhys. So really, all you need to do is keep Rhys away from large hordes of Paladins, and he’ll be doing fine. Sentenal Actually, no. That is false. Magic users are always the minority. This game is no exception (and my limited playthroughs lead me to believe they are even less common than others). I was saying that magical units are the majority of distance attackers, which is pretty much true, especially with all the mages running around with Bolting and whatnot. More often than not, melee enemies will be using close-range weapons instead of distance weapons. Sentenal Soren gets tons of avoid from Ike Support, plus is better all around than Rhys. Mist is a better unit that Rhys, and IS more durable than him when you consider supports. Illyana sucks, good job. Having the same HP/DEF as some of the most fragile units in the game doesn't make Rhys magically, all the sudden, durable. And I’m not saying that it does, I’m saying that if these units are worth using, then why isn’t Rhys? He’s just as durable as most of the other magical units, as well as Reyson and Sothe. Sentenal Why use Rhys over Soren, Tormod, Mist, or Calill? All those units are better magic users. And don't give me this crap about "Omg LIGHT MAGIC!!" Light Magic just happens to be a crappy version of anima magic. Your class hurts you more than anything. At least Tauroneo being a General allows him Lances and Swords. So why would you use Rhys over any of those BETTER units? Rhys arrives before Mist does, so he has a good-sized level lead when she arrives, so in the earlygame, Rhys is actually better than Mist. Post-promotion, Rhys is also better at attacking, since he wields lighter weaponry, and attacks RES. All the Sages can’t heal until they promote, and by then, Rhys is a solid part of your team anyway. Sentenal What if you didn't get a good Gatrie or Brom? What if you didn't want to use them? Well, Tauroneo is there for that. Excellent base stats, excellent weapon levels, best skill in the game. If you didn’t want to use Gatrie or Brom, why would you want to use Tauroneo? Obviously, if your Gatrie gains some bad levelups, you could use Brom, and vice-versa. The odds of BOTH turning out badly are really slim, and that isn’t a viable reason to be using Tauroneo. Sure, he’s got the best skill in the game, but that’s what the Resolve scroll is for. Sentenal If Rhys gets in the worst case scenario of 1 STR at 20/20 (very possible with 5% growth), he would lose 5 AS from Shine, and 3 AS from Light. That would give him 18 AS at 20/20, which will prevent him from consistantly doubling. A 5% chance over 33 levelups gives Rhys good odds of gaining a point or two in STR. A point or two is all he really needs, anyway. Besides, the averages take every possible outcome into consideration already, so we should really be debating those, not simple “what ifs”. Sentenal Face it, your SPD isn't good enough for you to be a good offensive unit. Then Tauroneo must be really crappy offensively, because he’s doing worse. Sentenal Who in their right mind would give Rhys the Knight Band? The whole purpose of it is to help a unit’s defense. So why not use it on someone with low defense? Who did you want to give it to, Gatrie? Sentenal Rhys... Well, he is a terrible defensive unit. So, in order for him to have use, he would have to be a good offensive unit, right? Well, with Rhys' SPD, he isn't. Rhys’s main purpose is healing, which he does phenomenally. Offense is secondary for him, and he’s fairly strong in that area. Rhys is very useful, because usefulness doesn’t always equal high stats. Sentenal Ummm Iron Weapons don't exist anymore at that point in the game. Two reasons for this: You have no funds Rank. Steel Swords would be the lowest he would go. And since you have no Funds rank to worry about, you can by more expensive weapons, and BUY more expensive weapons. Newsflash: Steel Sword =/= Silver Blade. Give Tauroneo a Steel Sword if you want, but Rhys STILL outdamages him. There’s no funds rank, but that doesn’t mean that you spam Silver weapons in the middle of the game. That’s just dumb. Sentenal Tauroneo can use any Sword or Lance he wants, for the most part. So, I'll keep my WTFPWNAGE Silver Blade and Spear. No, that’s called being dumb. Silver Blades are tough to come by, and you need them more in the final chapter than in chapter 22. Tauroneo gets Steel Weapons at best. Sentenal Good job on missing the point. Well, even if I did, I’m not the only one. Sentenal Iron Weapons don't exist. Tauroneo is using high powered weapons, so his base ATK is more than Rhys'. FACT. Rhys will barely be outdamaging Tauroneo. And neither unit has good enough AS to double. Sorry. You are barely outdamaging Tauroneo. Tauroneo isn't a good offensive unit. Rhys is only marginally better than Tauroneo in offensive. This means Rhys isn't a good offensive unit. Not using Iron Weapons =/= Spam Silver Blades. Rhys outdamages Tauroneo. Rhys has more AS than Tauroneo. Therefore, Rhys has better offense than Tauroneo. Sentenal EFED. It’s a typo. Turn on your Gamecube and check it if you don’t believe me. Sentenal Invalid point, because Iron Weapons are no longer in use by this point in the game. Tauroneo is using high powered weapons. Spamming Silver Blades is retarded. Moving on… Sentenal Dragons, Tigers, hard hitting Wyverns, things of that nature. You know, enemies that are really beastly. Beastly enemies bring out Tauroneo's BEAST MODE. Yeah, there are less than 10 Dragons in the entire game. Not many Tigers either. Most Wyverns won’t be strong enough to bring Tauroneo to below half health. Resolve is wasted on Tauroneo. Sentenal Good, I don't want an Occult. Let me keep my Resolve, its better by far. Good, we agree that Rhys is more likely to get an Occult than Tauroneo. Flare > Luna. Sentenal Tauroneo's 6 MOV, and no Tactics Rank, allows Tauroneo to keep up on the frontlines easily. And if Rhys wants do do something, he has to be on the row behind the 'frontlines'. So if neither of us can keep up, neither of us can do anything. Tactics or no tactics, you still want to use the units that are most helpful, and Tauroneo isn’t one of them. Rhys has no use on the frontlines anyway, so, like I said, keeping up isn’t a concern for him. Sentenal "At least Rhys has worthless skill!" lol At least he puts his skill to use. Tauroneo rarely is able to activate Resolve. Sentenal For starters, earlygame Ellen is unique. Nobody else can do what she does for 2 chapters out of 31. (counting gaidens) Ellen has guaranteed use from chapter 2 through chapter 4, and perhaps even after that. Meanwhile, Miledy has no uniqueness at all when she arrives, and no reason to be used over Bors and Barth. More than likely, she’ll be benched after chapter 13. </satire> No, that doesn’t work. Miledy is high tier, and is superior to Bors and Barth. Tauroneo is low tier, and is INFERIOR to Gatrie and Brom. Rhys has more uniqueness time than Ellen. I stand by what I originally said. Sentenal Wait, what? Did you forget about Sages? Sages get Staves on promotion. So, yeah, even less uniqueness for you. Sure, let’s bench Rhys, and wait until Chapter 15 (roughly) before we can promote a Sage to heal our units. Ye… no. Sentenal So, Rhys is 'unique'. That doesn't make him good. It doesn't make him decent. It means you use him while you have two, then bench him for Mist. It makes him incredibly useful for the earlygame, and worthwhile even after that. Even if you want to argue that you bench him when Mist comes (which I don’t really agree with), Rhys is still guaranteed to be used in chapters 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. Seven chapters. Tauroneo gets… 1, then gets benched, while you use Gatrie or Brom. Last time I checked, 7 > 1. The reality is, this is low tiers. You never use any of these guys instead of their superior counterparts. This works to Rhys’s advantage, because his “replacement” doesn’t come until seven chapters later, and she’s severely underleveled and stuck with a crappy promotion weapon. Rhys is one of the better low tiers, because you can actually consider using him. Tauroneo… not so much. You’ll bench him after chapter 21, because his replacements are already in your army, probably with level leads. (One of them, anyway) Rhys > Tauroneo.


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