Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui
Reikken	May 23 2007, 02:27 AM
Posts: 1,838 Group: FEFFer Member #907 Joined: August 26, 2006	I responded to things out of order and didn't bother to reoder it, so some things I say may not have the explanations until later in the post. Inui May 20 2007, 10:45 AM No. I'm implying that units can be at high levels even if you're using Rolf. He's not draining that much experience. He's not causing anyone to be promoted later. He gets a lot of experience when he kills things, and since basically nobody is one-rounding ever, he can pick off free kills pretty often. I've noticed this in his joining chapter until past promotion time. Unless Rolf is staying underleveled, he is indeed using up significantly more exp than others. That's a mathematical fact. Quote: Well, it's still the same AMOUNT of experience points, if you want to be technical... same amount = Rolf stays way underleveled Quote: He's underleveled, but not late enough in the game for it be a real issue. He can pick off free kills pretty often since only the likes of Titania or a lucky Boyd can one-round at this point. He's getting a lot of experience per kill and he just needs a little bit of bonus experience, and he'll be fine. ... Those set-up kills happen NORMALLY. Unless you want the enemies to get to attack you on their phase? Of course not. Just have Rolf kill off the remaining HP. First of all, since he's doing way less damage than everyone else is, it's unlikely that he'll be able to get the kill even after someone else attacks it first. And even then, the vast majority of the time, someone else could have gotten that kill instead. Quote: Only 15 EXP more per kill? He's getting ~40 EXP per kill in his joining chapter. I don't remember the other units getting over 20 EXP from kills in that chapter, but I definitely remember Rolf getting around 40 per kill, as I was taking notes at the time on Rolf. level 1 killing a level 11 = 40 exp level 11 killing a level 11 = 25 exp Quote: Yes, we've already concluded that Rolf is not as good as Oscar, Titania, Boyd, Ike, and all of the other God Tiers. You're proving nothing here by saying he is garbage compared to them when both of these units are anyways. The important thing is that Rolf > Sothe. No, Sothe is much better than Rolf. Using Rolf means you lose lots of combat ability and also lose loads of exp, or if you don't give him extra exp, you lose insane amounts of combat ability since you'll be left with one of the weakest combat units ever. Using Sothe means you lose a tiny amount of combat ability due to how much Volke's sucks, and you gain some supports in return. Quote: Don't you need more STR than the weight of what you're trying to steal? That could pose a problem for Sothe given how he starts with basically no STR and can't level-up without being the most detrimental unit ever in terms of experience. Staves are extremely light. And lol, no. Even if I gave Sothe 500 bexp, Rolf would still be more detrimental even only in terms of exp. Either that or he remains underleveled the entire time. Quote: You're suggesting we use a unit slot on Sothe so he can steal a few things that Volke can snatch up along his way anyways, and do it much better with far less risk? You can't pick locks better than someone else. Well, actually, Sothe would be marginally better at it due to not costing moneys. Quote: Why bring Sothe on Chapter 26 to steal one staff? As opposed to bringing another fighter that I don't need and haven't been using? No thx. I'll take one of the most h4x items in the game, kthx. Quote: Volke can actually fight at this point, and fight WELL(if he has lethality, otherwise he's just average) given how he's promoted and has Stilettos for rape. Stilettos? You only get 2 until chapter 27, and each has only 20 uses, and the first isn't until ch 21. What does that mean? 4-mt Daggers, lol. And for Volke to even have sub-decent stats, he has to have been fighting alot with Daggers or been eating mass bexp. What? Even assuming Volke has been fighting loads and loads, his attack with those limited supply Stilettos is about Lucia's level. Mist's attack > his. And when he isn't using rare weaponry, he gets raped in attack. And when he hasn't been babied like hell, he simply can't fight. lol, Lethatilty is a joke. Crit/2 = lowest activation rate ever. (Skill/2 + Weapon - EnemyLuck)/2. Even with your limited weapons, it's still at a single digit activation rate. With a Dagger, you'll be lucky to even get 4%activation. And it uses up an Occult. Lucia+Astra >>>> that. No, Volke can never even come close to fighting well. He sucks always. Quote: This game isn't one where you need to rush a lot, so you don't need to bring two thieves at any point. Going slow = you get less exp, so rushing is better. Quote: You can just BREAK doors down, even, instead of having a thief open them. With 80 hp doors, that takes quite a bit. Quote: Volke is all that is needed. And Ike and Titania are all that is needed for combat. What's your point? Quote: Sothe using a slot that a good combat unit could be using is detrimental. Why would you even want to fill every single slot, especially since many chapters don't let you take as many, so you're either using some random unit you haven't been using, or you're making people sit out. And using fewer units is better anyway. Quote: Rolf is a good combat unit after promotion due to solid offense. His offense is never good. It becomes non-ubersuck after he promotes, but that's only if you poured in tons of extra exp, and that's still not good. Quote: lol we sure love the word "detrimental" since these two kids suck ass Quote: Let's see how many good units we have that can fit on a large chapter map, such as Bertram's chapter... Ike Titania Boyd Oscar Soren Reyson Jill Kieran Mist Marcia Astrid Makalov Gatrie Calill ohshit i think we're full up? No room for Sothe even on a huge chapter. And there are other good units besides those that could be fielded and be useful. lol @ Gatrie being good Now, for those characters to be good, you have to have been using them all because otherwise they're just underleveled with no supports, etc. And I'm pretty sure this chapter lets you take even more units than that, though I could be mistaken. Anyway, the more units you use, the lower their levels and the fewer skill/statups/whatever they get, etc., so it's not good to use massive teams. Quote: Sothe is incapable of fighting. Sothe is incapable of taking blows or dodging. Sothe is thus incapable of being fielded unless you shield him, baby him, and rescue him. THAT'S pretty fucking gay, imo. No, dude. His avoid is decent. And few can 1-hit him. And it rly doesn't matter. If something can kill him, just keep him out of range. You can see enemy ranges for a reason. And chests don't attack, Priests don't attack, and Bishops suck so much at attacking that they're not a threat to even Sothe. Quote: Volke can kill magic users, and he actually can one-round one fighter in the port chapter. Uh ohz! Oh snap, he can one-round a level 1 unit! Those are Vigilates that you're not supposed to kill. They're made so that it's hard to not kill them. You even get a reward for not killing them, so that's not helping anything. And he actually can't kill magic users. Chapter 11's level 12 mages have about 5 def and 23 hp. Volke has 12 atk. He needs 4 hits to kill a mage. wtf. This guy doesn't need to be fighting ever. Quote: Yeah, Volke isn't an amazing combat unit, but his high STR growth helps him out there, and he doesnt need to be one-rounding anyways. He can pick off units that aren't dead yet, So Volke has to steal kills? Only if it's a unit that somehow no one else is around to kill will Volke be getting that kill. It happens, sure, but it's quite rare, and it's going to be one of the less threatening enemies since the more threatening ones are focused on first. Quote: as this is common in this game unless you are earlygame Titania or Largo with a Silver Axe or something There's actually alot more one-rounding going on than you're saying. Early on, yeah, there's less, but Titania is indeed there, and Boyd and ppls like Mordecai can one round some things as well. And then for others, there's forged weapons. Now, for things like ch 11's cavaliers, even forged weapons won't let people one-round them, but it's pretty suicidal for Volke to go try to fight them, and he's not doing but 1 damage to them anyway. Later on, units that are actually good are indeed one-rounding most things. Quote: and he can pick at units to gain EXP. Sothe can't even do that 1 damage to gain any experience points at all, whether it be experience from just weakening something, which is not taking away from others, or a large gain from a kill. Pick at things to gain exp? Even Sothe can do that. Like hack away at priests. Free exp. And his atk sucks, so he can get more out of them without killing them. Ch 13 he's busy with chests, but most of ch 14's enemies have low def, and then from then on, you have Daggers, so he can do at least 1 damage to most things. Quote: You still get some before then, and you can buy Daggers early. You get one in ch 21 and one from Bastian, and that's it. Quote: It matters because the whole point of the game is to kill the enemies and proceed to the next chapter. Sothe doesn't help with this. Reyson gives other units extra turns to increase the rape, while Sothe sits there and holds your team back by needing to be shielded and guarded the entire time since even the weaker units later on can OHKO him. Sothe isn't fighting, so he's not in enemy range. You don't need to be shielded when you're not in enemy range. Quote: So, you have to prioritize forming a shield around a unit you don't ever need on the field. Good stuff. Rolf has to be shielded since he can't counterattack. And no. First of all, Sothe can be farther back. And then usually it's easy to block off enemies, and often it even happens naturally, or you're doing it for someone else anyway, like Reyson. And other times the enemies simply don't have enough range to reach. For the rare occasion that that isn't the case, just stay back, or just don't care since it can't kill him in one hit or anything, and it's certainly not doubling. Quote: This game likes to throw long-range magic at you a lot. What's Sothe going to do about that? Who cares? He's not getting attacked by anything else, so just keep going, and then kill the mage thing. Unless it can somehow kill him in one hit, he's fine. If it can, just use a Pure Water. Quote: Implying that Volke doesn't outdo Sothe is ridiculous. Volke is significantly more durable and significantly better at fighting. And Volke is already bad at fighting, so that makes Sothe the single worst unit in the game when it comes to fighting. Volke doing better is doubtful? Don't see how it's doubtful when Volke utterly crushes Sothe in everything except supports. If you want to field trash like Sothe to make someone like Astrid better, then we might as well field Marcus and Louise in Light to make Eliwood and Pent better. No, not even close. It's like fielding Matthew in Sands of Time to get chests as well as make Guy better. And Volke is not significantly better at fighting. Sure, he can do more damage, but he still can't kill anything, and if he's attacking things and taking counterattacks and being out there by the enemies, he's easily less durable. And also, unless you give Volke massive babying/bexp, Sothe's +15 avo from supports means he actually has more avoid...! Quote: Not when he transforms, and he at least has Evd and RES. Sothe has NOTHING. No defensive parameters worth anything at all. Sothe gets more avo from his supports, and he's not weak to bows and ballistae like Reyson. Quote: Being incapable of fighting in a game about killing things? That sucks. At least bards/dancers can give other units multiple turns to make up for it, but Sothe has nothing to make up for it. He just sucks. Sothe gets you items to use for said fighting, foo. He makes good units better rather than taking exp from good units, making them worse. Quote: Sothe only starts with 11 SPD. Rolf has that by level 11(10 if you round up the .5). If you're using Rolf, he's going to be around that level when you get Sothe, and he gets tons and tons of experience from slaying those ravens on the boat, and he's actually not bad at that thanks to bows and having solid Hit. lol, level 11. If you dump 500 bexp on him, level 8-9 would be reasonable. 700 for level 11. Quote: Except...no. He has better offense than almost everyone after promotion. He has very impressive Crit, high Hit, high Atk Spd, and decent Atk. How is he sucking more? ... Even at a few levels behind your team, his offense is on par with their's. And when I say on par with "their's," I actually do mean it's on par with the TOP TIER units. Unless these average charts on FEA are decieving me, that is... lol, no. Rolf's offense is never on par with that of top tier units, and especially not when he's a few levels behind. Kieran is beating him in atk by about 6. Rolf's attack is about on par with Mist's even when he's using more exp. Impressive crit? 20 crit is not impressive at all. Quote: Ohnozsnipernoattackingbackatcloserange! This is why the people that make these games give you units like Gatrie and Oscar to frontline so that doesn't matter, and Rolf can camp behind them Amazing; just like Sothe. Except Sothe doesn't even have to be that close as he can be 3 spaces behind the frontline. Quote: Good in the earlygame and not too bad later on if you use a Paladin Band on him. He's low tier, but around the top of it, and if he's being used Rolf can support him. Paladin Band is one of the best bands for mages and shiz. Give it to Soren to make his avoid even higher, give it to Ilyana to keep her speed up later in the game, etc. Waste it on Rhys just so I can support Rolf? No way. And even then, use this guy over Mist? No way. And even then, sure, he's nice as a healer in the earlygame, but after promotion, sages can heal too, so there's no reason at all to keep around a sucky unit. If using Rolf means I need to use Rhys, too, that's even worse. Quote: Yeah, but are you always using all of them and will she always be full? Even if he did get this support, Rolf is a backliner, and Marcia is a flier with 2 more move. It's never going to be in range. Now, Kieran and Tanith? Tanith, perhaps not always, but with this combined with the point above, it's so infrequent that it doesn't matter. Rolf gets an average of like 0.1 atk and 0.5 avoid. Quote: Same. Titania, Jill, Boyd, and Mordecai? No, Rolf is never even touching this one. Quote: He's a good low tier, and definitely wants Rolf if he's fielded. At least Rolf gets a lategame support and Tauroneo can have some supports. Sure, when he's fielded, he gets Rolf. Quote: Yes, we all know how much you hate Gatrie. He's still incapable of dying unless a horde of sages with thunder surround him, and he deals tons of damage with a single blow. He's much better than you give him credit for, since he can bait an entire army and come out taking no damage or only taking a few points of damage, and then he'll definitely kill whatever it is he's fighting on his turn. Remember that strategy you posted about Dorcas? Same thing, except Gatrie has infinite durability. Except Dorcas can kill things in one hit, and yet he's still low tier. Gatrie can't, and he even has less mobility. This guy sucks. And then, you can't bait out armies unless you have the move to actually get out there in front of everyone. You can't take hits for someone unless you can move over in front of them. He's like Mordecai with half the move, zero doubling ability instead of meh doubling ability, and no earlygame raeping skillz. Yes, Gatrie sucks. Srsly. He's alot like Wallace, and that guy sucks hard even without the recruitment requirements. Quote: Gatrie will be in range because he's a tank and frontlines well. He'll be seeing combat, like Astrid, while Sothe will not. You don't need to see combat to be in support range. Sothe is a backliner that thieves instead of attacks ranged, and he can be even farther back than ranged attackers. Instead of 2 spaces away from the enemy, it's 3 spaces away from an ally. Quote: If he's thieving, he's off somewhere. For stealing, no. For chests, only sometimes. Not very often. You have to get to the chests first, and sometimes, they're even right there along the way, and then he either rejoins after getting the chests or the chapters is over anyway. Quote: If you're going to take a thief along for somethings, then it's going to be Volke, and you don't need another. I don't need another fighter after Ike and Titania either, so that's moot. If I'm goint to use another fighter, it sure as hell isn't going to be Rolf. It's going to be one of the other two dozen units that are better than him. Rolf has far far more competition than Sothe has, and he's much worse than his. Quote: Not only does Reyson rape the shit out of him in Evd, but he takes magic blows like they are nothing. So, he's more durable even without transforming, and when he does transform, he's way more durable. You fergatted Sothe's supports. +15 avo. And Sothe won't be at base level. He can indeed damage things, many enemies can't counterattack, and he even gets exp from stealing. Reyson has massive res, but Sothe has no weakness to bows and laguzslaying weapons, and res can even be boosted. Quote: Reyson is also god tier/top of high tier, so he's basically always fielded and he's amazing. Unlike Sothe, who sucks. Indeed. He's proof that you can be fielded with crap durability and not die. Quote: Who's saying Tormod is even being used, anyways? He's even more underleveled than Rolf. level 11 vs level 1 on ch 9 level 17 vs level 7 on ch 16 Even more underleveled? Nope. What makes Tormod so much better than Rolf? They both need bexp, but the difference is that Tormod actually becomes good. 20/4 Rolf = 16.8 str + 9 Steel Bow = 25.8 atk. 20/4 Tormod = 18.2 mag + 7 Elthunder + 1 B Sothe = 26.2 atk. Tormod ties/beats Rolf in attack, except he attacks res, so he's raping him in offense. And Tormod has staves, which are h4x in this gaem, and 1-2 range, which is also pretty h4x. And he has more move. Quote: If Rolf is being fielded, he's going to promote much sooner than that unless you purposely neglect him. He gets a lot of EXP from killing and this game is pretty generous with that bonus experience, so he's not going to be promoting that yet. Spending the resources to promote him around when your other units normally promote is nowhere near as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. I've used Rolf plenty of times along with a normal full team, and nobody promoted later or failed to be at high levels later on, and Rolf promoted around Chapter 16/17 without issues. Sure, if you give him loads of bexp/babying. Quote: And when he's promoted, he's trashing a lot of units in offensive power. I dunno where you're getting that bull from. His offense is not good at all. Quote: Mist with a Sword being better? Um. She starts at the same level as him in the same chapter, So you give Rolf bexp, which takes exp from the rest of the team, and then he does his thing, killing stuff, or trying to...more like stealing kills since he's still underleveled unless you gave him loads... and in killing things, he's taking even more exp away from the rest of the team. But that's okay, since he was helping out by killing stuff. Or it would be if he didn't suck while doing it. So you have the exp lost by killing things, mostly made up for by him helping out + exp lost by giving him bexp. Net loss. Then, Mist. You give Mist bexp, which takes exp from the rest of the team, and then she does her thing, helping out with healing ppls. So you have the exp lost by giving her bexp, made up for by helping out. Comes out even. Mist can catch up in level without taking up more exp. Rolf has to use up more exp than others to catch up in level. And then after promotion, staff exp isn't halved like in some games, and Physic gives 22 exp per use, so staff users get h4x levels. Quote: He's not eating that much up, unless my game is special and gives extra experience or something. I don't see where these problems are coming from. No, using him doesn't mean that you have a massive exp deficiency where your characters all promote 5 chapters later or something, but you do indeed have quite a bit less exp. You could instead use that exp to boost another character or two several levels, making them h4x. That's much better than using Rolf, who's below average even caught up in level. Quote: False. Unless you neglect him and don't actually raise and train him, he's somewhere in the top 10 in the game for offense in the lategame, probably. And again, I don't know where you're getting that from.
	NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi)

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