| Viewing Single Post From: Hollie vs Sentenal | |
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| +Hollie | May 24 2007, 03:52 PM |
Resident Brit
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If you expect me to check this thing, then STFU, it's 15 pages long.
Uh, yeah, it is in this case. Tauro has higher Str than Mia, so giving him a weaker weapon doesn’t hurt his Atk as much as it would hurt hers. Now, this is sounding like a really bad explanation as to why it’s bias, but I struggle with wording things sometimes. Basically, the reason is something like you’re comparing them in a situation that wouldn’t happen (steel stuff endgame, lulz), with weapons that do more for Tauro than Mia . . . did that make sense?
Well, I meant Largo B, not A, and Ilyana probably doesn’t want to support Mia. MIA wants to support Ilyana, but not the other way around. Well, there is a chance that Mia gets the Ilyana support since by your logic of ‘we’ve got two low tiers already I don’t want any more’ Mordecai isn’t being used, Ilyana is then open to take B Mia. So we’ve got Mia with B Ilyana, and Tauro with no supports. I realise that the ‘in Mia’s perfect world’ part might’ve confused you a bit, and I should apologise for that.
Uh, the second paragraph was mainly about Mia not getting Ilyana B. Granted, I missed the bit off the end that said ‘Ilyana doesn’t want Mia’. But I would’ve thought the ‘Mordecai gives 1 more Def at B and is quicker’ would’ve clued you in. Largo A was a typo. I meant B. Note that the bonuses I was discussing were B support bonuses, a fact that you could’ve easily checked out, and also note that throughout the debate I’ve been using A Rhys B Largo.
Rhys is high low tier, and can actually have a place on your team thanks to healing, plus the game is pretty generous with character limits. Plus, his offence, whilst not amazing, isn’t atrocious either, and 3 Atk from Mia (1 from Titania as well, maybe) definitely helps him out a little. Largo is a great endgame unit, though granted he starts of rather unimpressive.
Wrryy? You could probably beat the game using entirely low tier units. Well, bar Ike, since you have to take him along. And maybe Oscar and Boyd in the early levels, but really, it sounds entirely doable to me.
No clue about the steel weapons still though. Still don’t understand about the supports either, but IF we’re going to play it like that, then Mia clearly wins supports, since Rhys is more usable than Largo and Rolf (as a healer with okay offence) and Ilyana is high/mid tier, and would actually take Mia B is Mordecai isn’t being used. Possibly even A Mia if you think like Reikken and think Gatrie is a horrible unit. But I’ll assume you don’t, since you’re debating a tank and all. The A isn’t much better than B anyway from what I recall.
See above. Using your logic, one of them doesn’t get supports realistically.
FE9 is a completely different game to FE6. If you’re using Niime, Yodel and/or Sophia, and someone who wouldn’t ordinarily get their support is suddenly with their partner, then are you going to not support them for the hell of it?
Tauro, GERMAN? Dear god fellow, what have you been smoking? He’s quite clearly British, eh, what?
What? Are you going to say that if you used these units you WOULDN’T give them those weapons endgame. Well, Mia might have a Silver Sword or something instead, but . . .
Well, uh . . . sorry chap, but with your logic, Mia is actually the only one of these two who gets a support, since Mordecai is low tier and all. And if we’re not using more than these two low tiers, then that leaves Ilyana without a B support, eh? A spot that Mia is quite happy to fill. So, we’ll try your comparison again with that factored in.
… Mia - 20/20 - Offence Killing Edge B Ilyana Atk: 20 Str + 9 from KE + 1 from Ilyana = 30 Hit: 62 base + 75 from KE + 10 from Ilyana = 147 Crt: 13 base + 30 from KE + 15 from class = 58 AS: 30 Tauroneo - 20/20 - Offence Silver Lance No supports Atk: 25 + 15 from SL = 40 Hit: 56 base + 75 from SL = 124 Crt: 10 base AS: 14 So Mia is still winning massively in Crt, AS and by a good amount in Hit. And enemies in this game actually have over 24 avoid, so the Hit lead actually makes a difference. Tauro has a lead of 10 in Mt. So using the enemy I gave, this would turn into: Mia dealing 20 damage a turn, without a critical. Or 40 damage a turn, if she criticals once. Or 60 damage a turn, if she criticals twice. Tauro dealing 20 damage a turn. Mia is still one-rounding more than Tauro. Mia still wins, just by less. And for the sake of a little variety, how about we get a few other comparisons against different enemies up here, hmm? Final Chapter Level 15 Swordmaster Killing Edge HP: 39 Atk: 26 Hit: 125 Crt: 57 AS: 25 Def: 12 Res: 8 Evd: 52 CEvd: 7 Mia hits for 36 damage per round, without a critical. With a critical, she OHKO’s (assuming the critical is the first strike, otherwise she just one rounds). Her chance of critting is . . . 51. Over half. Tauro hits for 29 damage per round, including WTA, obviously. Mia does more damage and one rounds more. Whichever way you look at it . . . Mia wins versus these guys. As for defensively, Mia only has a 45% chance of being hit in the first place, and this is against one of the more accurate enemies. And if she does get hit, it’s for 10 damage anyways. A vulnerary heals that. She survives, and possibly kills them before they get a chance to hit even on the enemy phase. Unless, for some idiotic reason, you removed Vantage. Final Chapter Level 15 Cat Claw HP: 50 Atk: 29 Hit: 127 Crt: 9 AS: 22 Def: 19 Res: 10 Evd: 43 CEvd: 4 Mia hits for 22 damage per round, without a critical. With one critical, she does 44 damage per round - so close to one-rounding - and with two she actually does one round. Chance of criticaling is 54. She’s likely to two-round this guy. Tauro hits for 21 damage per round, but in return gets doubled. Mia is still winning in offence even without the critical, not that she’s unlikely to critical. Final Chapter Level 15 Tiger Claw HP: 49 Atk: 33 Hit: 127 Crt: 9 AS: 20 Def: 23 Res: 10 Evd: 39 CEvd: 4 Mia hits for 14 damage per round without a critical. With one critical, she does 28 damage. With two, 42 damage. She’s either two or three rounding this guy. Tauro does 17 damage per round. Tauro probably draws this one, since Mia is two or three rounding depending on criticals, and Tauro three rounds no matter what. Well, assuming he hits. Final Chapter Level 15 Warrior Silver Axe HP: 52 Atk: 39 Hit: 102 Crt: 7 AS: 17 Def: 14 Res: 10 Evd: 36 CEvd: 7 Mia does 34 damage per round, without a critical. With one critical, she does 68 damage. So, she’s either one or two rounding this guy. Now, because Tauro isn’t stupid enough to pull out a lance against an axe user, we’ll say he switched to a silver sword, so he gets WTA as well. He effectively loses 1 Atk. So, he does 25 damage per round, which means he needs three rounds whereas Mia needs one or two. More likely one. Final Chapter Level 16 Paladin Brave Axe HP: 44 Atk: 29 Hit: 107 Crt: 7 AS: 20 Def: 20 Res: 14 Evd: 52 CEvd: 9 Mia does 20 damage per round without a critical. With one critical, she does 40 damage, meaning she’s probably two-rounding this guy. Tauro does (assuming he switched to silver sword again) 19 damage per round, meaning he’s three rounding. In return he gets attacked four times.  Only 4 damage each time, but still. If all hit that’s 16 damage. The guy only has a 17% chance of even touching Mia.So, we can quite safely say that in the endgame, Mia > Tauro in offence, and she’s quite survivable as well (since pretty much no enemy bar Ashnard can get over 50% hit on her, she’s fairly safe). Killing lots of stuff + probably surviving >> not killing lots of stuff + definitely surviving. Of course, this is only one chapter. At the time you recruit Tauroneo and for a while thereafter, he will probably be doing better. However, up until the point when you recruit Tauro, you had Mia with you doing her stuff and helping you out. So, from Chapter 7 to Chapter 21 (or three quarters of the way through that), you had Mia helping you out, and no sign of Tauro whatsoever. Then from, say, the last little bit of chapter 21 (which is basically the boss and like, five other units at that point, so it barely even counts), to Chapter 25 or so, you have Tauro doing better, and Mia still helping you out and doing good. Then from there until the endgame, Mia is doing better. Being more helpful for 19 chapters >>> Being more helpful for 4 chapters. And by ‘being more helpful’ I don’t mean being more helpful than the rest of your team. It’s doubtful even that Tauro is more helpful than Mia for those few chapters, since he doesn’t have good offence ever and most units can defend a position on the frontlines, which is what Tauro specialises in. How is Mia helpful? In her joining chapter, she can help by hacking at the enemies to lower their HP. At this point, a lot of your units still aren’t quite one-rounding, so Mia can help by attacking first. Then in chapter 8, she can take over for Ike for a turn on the west side if he needs healing, instead of potentially putting Rhys in danger. And on the next chapter, if you let her tackle the axe users on the sand, WTA and the avoid boost will mean she’s rarely getting hit and getting good exp to boot. And, well, it carries on from there. I can’t really be bothered to go and give reasons Mia’s helpful. She doesn’t shine in the early-game, and her offence at that point is quite poor, but once she starts gaining levels she gets much better, and then when she promotes and gets the SM Crt boost, her offence really starts to pull ahead.
Less weapon uses = less weapon exp, which is hardly a good thing, and it’s endgame so it’s not like weapon use matters anyway.
Try again. It’s 14.8, and since I’ve been skipping the decimals, that’d be 14 darlin’.
I did have something to counter that, since I knew right from the start that’s what you’d say, but . . . I forgot it.  I guess Tauro can have his 15 Spd, not that is makes any difference anyway. As I said, the difference between getting 14 Spd and 15 Spd is only 2%. Whereas Mia has over a 50% chance of capping Spd by 20/14, putting her even further ahead!
Osnap, your logic backfired. Since low tiers bar Tauro and Mia for debate purposes shouldn’t be fielded now, and Mordecai is low tier (I faced him in the first round, it’s a given), Mordecai is no longer being fielded. Which means Ilyana no longer gets a B support. But no fear! Guess who her backup for B support is . . . dundundun, Mia! If you’ve got something to say about her other support partners, tough, you didn’t say that earlier when you were under the impression I was also giving Mia B Ilyana, so I’m assuming you don’t see anything wrong with my reasoning. So yes, Mia gets a support, kthnx. Unless Ilyana isn’t worth using, or something dumb like that, since she’s a really great unit and with a Spd boosting band her Spd is actually really decent. Plus she starts with a D in the best magic already, less effort to level it up, yayz. So, in short, there’s no reason no to use her. Plus, she dance-crits. Can’t say no to that.
Mia - 20/20 - Defence Killing Edge B Ilyana HP: 41 (42 if you round up) Def: 16 (17 if you round up) Res: 13 CEvd: 20 (21 if you round up) Evd: 30 + 30 + 20 = 80 (81 if you round up Luk) Mia has 27 Skl (when rounded), not Spd. Her chance of capping Spd is 95%, so uh . . . we’ll go with that.
Tauroneo - 20/20 - Defence Silver Lance No supports HP: 51 (52 if you round up) Def: 25 (26 if you round up) Res: 16 CEvd: 14 (15 if you round up) Evd: 42 (45 if you round up Spd and Luk) Bias? Nah, not when I’ve ignored the decimals exactly the same way for Mia.
That’s right, if you’re me, you either ignore the decimal entirely or see if they have an insanely high chance of capping, or something like that. So, no, my maths wasn’t wrong, just difference to yours. How is it bias when I did the same thing for Mia and Tauro, with the one exception of Mia’s speed because her chance of capping that is really h4x.
I’m 14, not 4. I do know how probability works. I also know what the word ‘patronising’ means.
Well, let’s see, if we use your method of rounding stuff up, then it’s . . . 10 HP + 9 Def + 3 Res vs. 6 CEvd + 36 Evd Tauro is obviously winning, but the beauty of this is that it now doesn’t matter in the slightest, because despite setbacks my plan is pretty much going as planned. Now, let’s look at Mia’s defences on their own: Mia - 20/20 - Defence Killing Edge B Ilyana HP: 42 Def: 17 Res: 13 CEvd: 21 Evd: 81 Can you honestly tell me that Mia’s going to be dying with those defences? Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying they’re amazing or ultra h4x or anything, but they are pretty good. 81 Evd, with no boost from supports? That’s like, Clarine standard. It’s pretty insane. Even with WTD, that’s 71 Evd, and still a good chance of the enemy not hitting her. The dragon laguz have the highest hit in the final chapter (not counting Ashnard or Bryce) and the one I have a sample of has 133 Hit. It has a 52% chance of hitting Mia, and since Mia doesn’t damage it, she’s probably not going to be facing it in the first place. Oh, and the sniper I have a sample of has that chance of hitting as well. Even against the second highest hit, 129 on the sage when he’s using Thoron, the chance of hitting is 48. Then on the third highest, 127 on the cat and tiger laguz, it’s 46. And then on the fourth highest, the swordmaster, it’s 44. Then it jumps down to 33 vs a sword-using paladin, and then there’s actually quite a few axe users in this chapter, so Mia has no problems evading most attacks. Plus, the lance users in the chapter, her weakness, tend to have hit close to 100%, so even with the WT against her, Mia still has about the same chance of dodging as against the sword paladin. And this is all in game hit, not the real hit that would lower it even more. 52 = 53.92 48 = 48.08 46 = 42.32 44 = 36.98 33 = 21.78 So out of all the enemies in the chapter bar Ashnard and Bryce, the highest hit against her is just over 50. Mia, dying? Highly unlikely. And now, with that, I bring you back to what I said in my first post:
And this you didn’t counter at all. No, your first post was trying to prove that Mia was better than Tauro in offence by a little bit, and then that his larger victory in defence made up for that. You didn’t even disagree with offence being more needed than defence. So, I have to conclude that you don’t disagree, or at least that you can’t prove the opposite, which is really what matters in a debate. In that case, where does that leave us? It leaves us with Tauro beating Mia in defence, but with Mia being able to survive just fine, and with Mia having much better defence than Tauro.
And this is without including the large part of the game where Mia is there, and Tauroneo isn’t.
26, to be precise, but that’s not the point. The point is that Mia has more avoid, and that it keeps her safe.
Making your own avoid look worse to make mine look worse as well? interestingtheory But I have to say that Tauro’s Evd is actually quite good for a tank. For a lot of enemies, it should bring their avoid into the 60’s. Higher for some. Besides, from the samples given above on how good Mia’s avoid is (I should actually mention that biorhythm might affect those hits so they may not line up perfectly with what they’re supposed to), I can testify that either shit in this game is not the same as shit in other games, or that Mia’s avoid is not 20-30 more than shit.
My samples indicate there are actually only a couple of classes whose Atk reaches 35 or higher: Warriors, Generals, Wyvern Lords and the Dragon Laguz. Considering that the Warriors have something like a 10% chance of hitting her and that the WLs are on one side of the field and carry axes as well, that’s not to threatening. Hell, those are pretty much the only things that breach 30 Atk. The Tiger laguz come close to 35, though, and the Sage in the chapter has 31 with Bolting, but there are units with even lower Res than Mia, so that shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Even if she does get hit once or twice, well, that’s what healers are for, and since Ilyana should be close by to benefit from that support, problem is solved.
Eh, fine, whatever, though that really makes no sense when you think about it. If you’re using Mia anyway, then why the hell are you making it worse for yourself by having her promote really really late?
20/1? Are you sure? Taking 17-2 as the average promotion level and then promoting Mia in 17-4 since she’s apparently not getting bonus exp, that’s still 1 level in 18, 19, 20 and 21 (since by the time you get Tauro, there’s like, six units left including the boss, or something like that - in other words you’ve done most of the beating the chapter already), which puts her at 20/4. 1 level per chapter is kinda-sorta logical, but that’s assuming you don’t use any bonus exp on her ever, and also that she’ll only gain 1 level per chapter whereas in some she might gain two or more.
Well, if you have her at 20/1 at that point, sure, but the other units would only be 5 or so levels in front, plus 20/1 in pretty ridiculous anyway, so . . . If we kept going with the 1 level per chapter thing from 21, that’d be 7 more levels to 28, then 1 more during the final chapter, which would put Mia at 20/9 by your calculations. Obviously, she’s not gaining one level per chapter, then, since even with your level for her your other units would be maybe, 5 - 7 levels higher, maybe a bit more. So they’d be 20/17 or so, and unlikely to gain 3-4 levels in the last chapter. So yeah, there’s something wrong with that, then. Your other units should be something like, oh I dunno, 20/8 to 20/9 by that point? Higher? Since you seem to be sticking with the nonsensical idea that Mia should be lower than your other units to hold you back, she can be the lower end. 20/8?
Okay, let’s redo that without the ridiculous level. Tauroneo - Base Stats HP: 48 STR: 22 MAG: 11 SKL: 18 SPD: 13 DEF: 22 RES: 14 LUK: 14 Mia - 20/8 - Averages B Ilyana HP: 35.5 STR: 16.4 MAG: 8.3 SKL: 21.4 SPD: 26.0 DEF: 13.2 RES: 9.3 LUK: 15.5 Okay, so Tauro is still winning, but Mia’s wins are now Skl, Spd and Luk, and she’s pretty close in Mag. Rounded up this time, since that’s what you seem to prefer. Tauroneo - Base Level - Offence Steel Lance No supports Atk: 22 Str + 10 from SL = 32 Hit: 50 base + 70 from SL = 120 Crt: 9 base AS: 13 Mia - 20/8 - Offence Steel Sword B Ilyana Atk: 16 Str + 8 from SS + 1 from Ilyana = 25 Hit: 58 base + 75 from SS + 10 from Ilyana = 143 Crt: 10 base + 15 from class = 25 AS: 26 7 Atk vs. 23 Hit + 16 Crt + 13 AS Mia easily wins. Let’s take your 17 Def enemy (though since most generic endgame enemies only have 3 - 5 more than that, possibly 7 or so for Generals, I think it’s unlikely . . . especially when there are units with less that that). Mia does 8 damage twice, so 16 per round. Tauro still does 15 per round. Mia is more likely to Crt. Mia wins. Then, let’s take a few units with lower Def. One with 14, one with 10, and one with 6 (a Sage or something for variety). Vs. 14 Def: Mia does 22 damage per round, Tauro does 18 per round. Vs. 10 Def: Mia does 30 per round, Tauro does 22 per round. Vs. 6 Def: Mia does 38 per round, Tauro does 26 per round. So basically, the lower the Def, the more Mia wins by, even when you don’t include Crt. When it goes higher than 18 or so, which is really only Generals and laguz, Tauro wins unless Mia’s using a Killing Edge, in which case Crt usually claims her victory. So even 6 levels lower, Mia is better in offence than Tauro.
Oh believe me, having used good ole’ Tauro, I know what Resolve is like. I would’ve brought it up.
Actually, it does quite a lot to help Mia, because now the enemies that she can OHKO with a critical (okay, so that’s not a huge amount) are possibly killed before they even have a chance of hitting her. And then there’s the enemies that she didn’t one round last turn coming back to get her (yayz low Def is good for something) getting hit and killed (depending, but it’s quite likely) before they even have a chance of getting to her. So Vantage actually helps Mia out a lot.
Aye.
Now, here’s what they’ll really look like: STR: 37 SKL: 31 SPD: 22 This is because the game halves the stat, rounds down, and THEN adds it on top, rather than just x by 1.5 like Sent did, at least from what I recall. His method is still technically correct, so I’m not going to make a fuss about it or anything.
Indeed?
All of this is the truth. However, the problem with Resolve is it’s activation rate. HP has to be at 50% or lower. And yeah, in my debate against Hakado, I said it could activate about 25% of the time. I’ve since reconsidered. Tauro’s defence is worse than your other two tanks, but still better than quite a lot of your party. It’s only against enemies with brave weapons, or really high Atk, that Tauro actually takes any damage worth mentioning. Apart from the few lategame enemies with brave weapons, that’s basically Warriors and laguz, and the Warriors he can get WTA over to make them less likely to hit. So that’s the laguz, and then magicians do decent damage too. And then maybe the odd Warrior hits him. And this has to happen enough that he’s at 50%< health before the chapter’s over, and to be worthwhile there still has to be a decent amount of enemies left. It’s not happening in Chapter 21, that’s for sure, and in Chapter 22 there isn’t really enough fighting going on (it’s more yelling at priests to GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY, NOW). In Chapter 23 there’s a load of ranged shit coming at you that targets lower Def units, so Tauro’s probably out. Then in Chapter 24, you might have Resolve activate near the end, but the only ones who’d be left by then are the boss and his lackeys, so Tauro isn’t exactly doing a lot with it. Chapter 25 is full of boulders that roll at you and take 10 HP off no matter what, so by abusing these, Tauro can actually activate Resolve early enough to use it well. Then in Chapter 26 there’s just fuckloads of . . . everything and you’re probably going to use Tauro vs. the Swordmasters since he doesn’t take much damage. That’s that chapter out. Chapter 27 might have him activate Resolve if you leave him to the reinforcements who come on the second turn (maybe third, I’m not quite sure) from where your units started off, but then they’ll pretty much be the only ones he can use it against, so it’s not really helping. Then there’s Chapter 28, with loads of laguz, and most of them do some damage at least. Plus there’s them dragon bastids. So, he might make some use of it here. And then, we have it, the final chapter. There’s loads of enemies on this chapter and some of them deal more than like 1 or 2 damage, so Resolve could activate here and if it does, it ought to be useful. Just, like . . . keep Tauro away from Ashnard. So, whilst Vantage is active 100% of the time, Resolve activates very rarely, and even then there are like 3 situations where it’s useful. Vantage might not be useful an amazing amount of the time, but at least it’s useful for a lot of it. So, closing points: -Mia is more useful than Tauro overall -Tauro’s skill is better on its own, but Mia’s will be more useful -Tauro beats Mia in defence, but Mia can still survive perfectly well -Mia beats Tauro in offence -Because of this and reasons stated in the first post that you did not counter, she is more needed on your team -Mia can actually get supports from characters who are also useful (Rhys/Ilyana) -Tauro isn’t German -Mia is really hot <3 Well, that’s really all I can think of. Now go beat the crap out of this post. |
Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch.  Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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