Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui
Kamaitachi	May 25 2007, 01:46 AM
Classy Posts: 5,263 Group: Judge Member #613 Joined: February 13, 2006	Reikken you broke my heart! I responded to things out of order and didn't bother to reoder it, so some things I say may not have the explanations until later in the post. You dastard! How could you do something like that to me!!! We're totally not friends anymore. And you can completely forget about that thing about us lying in sexual congress once a month or so. Reikkypoo you're not my BFF anymore Unless Rolf is staying underleveled, he is indeed using up significantly more exp than others. That's a mathematical fact. Your mathematics are wonky. Rolf starting underlevelled will gain more experience points from, say, hitting a unit, than say your already level gajillion Ike will. At that point in the game, since you're basically using all your units in your roster anyways, you might as well get Rolf some experience, as opposed to wasting it on your already higher leveled units. Oh sure, they can use more experience, but that's what units like, say, bosses are for. Rolf will gain more experience. This does not mean that he's using significantly more than the rest. Why, on his joining chapter, he can do 0 damage to an armor and still gain some decent experience. Is that stealing experience? No. That's him getting some for himself, and still leaving plenty for units like, I dunno...armourslaying Ike to get their experience in as well. So really, it's still mathematical fact, just in a different way than you're gunning for Reikken, darling. Reikken is trying to drive home a point same amount = Rolf stays way underleveled Uh. No. Reikken continues to drive. Man he drives like a grandmama First of all, since he's doing way less damage than everyone else is, it's unlikely that he'll be able to get the kill even after someone else attacks it first. And even then, the vast majority of the time, someone else could have gotten that kill instead. Like who? On Rolf's joing chapter, how many people do you have already? Fairly enough, says I, and there are enough enemies for them to run around getting experience from too. Unless, of course, you're deadset on Lethe and Mordecai being all chompy chompy bitey bitey on all the enemies. The only time you really need Lethe, is to get her out to that far house that the retarded sea bandits might possibly get to first. Oh right. Marcia could do that too. Okay, I need to pause here for a second and point something out. Inui says "Rolf > Sothe" then Reikken's counter is "No, Sothe > Rolf". What is this? Fusions top debaters resorting to the most base of base logics!? Oh my heart, she breaks Fluh? Using Rolf means you lose lots of combat ability and also lose loads of exp, or if you don't give him extra exp, you lose insane amounts of combat ability since you'll be left with one of the weakest combat units ever. Using Sothe means you lose a tiny amount of combat ability due to how much Volke's sucks, and you gain some supports in return. Right, but using Sothe over Volke means you lose out on Lethality. You ultimately don't need Volke as a utility unit, as there are enough chest keys and the like, and you can break down things in this game by hitting them. And mind you, if you're looking to use Sothe purely for supports and for utility...you're dumb. Volke will be a more durable unit, so I'd rather spend pittance to get some good stuff. Oftentimes, you see, a chest has enemy units around them. Sending Sothe off on his own, or with a paltry support team of Sothe and Tormod seems like a pretty terrible idea, especially if you're running off to get chests before an enemy gets to them. Oh I know. Send Sothe and Astrid instead. At least Volke, even without supports, has more durability on the overall. I'd rather spend a little money than have one of my units die. Because if one of my units dies, I assume I'm a terrible player. Using Sothe often makes me feel like a terrible player. So yeah, you're probably going to be all like "Using an Occult Scroll on Volke is a waste, blah blah blah, I'm Reikken, here are the numbers I've carefully compiled as to why" and then my response would be "Kindly remove those numbers from my tender, tender butthole." So before we get to that, let me just say that...I don't care what you say. Watching Volke stumble a little then obliterate an enemy in a single hit makes me glow on the inside. Sothe can't do that. Sothe is all like "oh man, I'm tiny. I'll hit you with my little knife!" and then the enemy laughs, bends him over, and goes Vlad the Impaler on Sothe with their massive...uh...egos. Quote: Staves are extremely light. And lol, no. Even if I gave Sothe 500 bexp, Rolf would still be more detrimental even only in terms of exp. Either that or he remains underleveled the entire time. You keep saying this, and yet I don't believe you. It's perfectly easy to have a Rolf on level par with the rest of your team, especially since later on you go on and make the argument that you shouldn't be using a massive team anyways! Quote: You can't pick locks better than someone else. Well, actually, Sothe would be marginally better at it due to not costing moneys. Right. Money is so frickin hard to come by in this game. People don't randomly give your team thousands of monies for being cool as shit. You're rich as shit at many points in the game. You don't need to spend too too much on weapons, so by the time you get Volke to pick locks for you, 80 per lock is just...paltry. It's not a big deal. Sothe can do it for free, sure, but Sothe is also a giant wuss. Quote: As opposed to bringing another fighter that I don't need and haven't been using? No thx. I'll take one of the most h4x items in the game, kthx. ~~And I would bring in Janaff~~ I probably would bring in Sothe too, seeing as he can steal that physic sta- wa-wa-----...wait a minute. I haven't been spending jack shit on Sothe. Well according to Reikken I should just bring him in for stealing, never give him any kills, and give him a marginal amount of Bonus experience. Why the hell am I bringing an unpromoted thief at like...level nothing into Chapter 26 for a physic staff? Oh right. I'm definitely in favour of Sothe dying. Right. Okay. Thanks Reikken. Quote: Stilettos? You only get 2 until chapter 27, and each has only 20 uses, and the first isn't until ch 21. What does that mean? 4-mt Daggers, lol. And for Volke to even have sub-decent stats, he has to have been fighting alot with Daggers or been eating mass bexp. What? Even assuming Volke has been fighting loads and loads, his attack with those limited supply Stilettos is about Lucia's level. Mist's attack > his. And when he isn't using rare weaponry, he gets raped in attack. And when he hasn't been babied like hell, he simply can't fight. lol, Lethatilty is a joke. Crit/2 = lowest activation rate ever. (Skill/2 + Weapon - EnemyLuck)/2. Even with your limited weapons, it's still at a single digit activation rate. With a Dagger, you'll be lucky to even get 4%activation. And it uses up an Occult. Lucia+Astra >>>> that. No, Volke can never even come close to fighting well. He sucks always. The only thing Lucia has over Volke is hotness. Although I must admit, Volke can be pretty sexy. But still. Right right. there's no hammerne in this game. Stilletos can be used sparsely, when they're needed. Volke still does more damage than Sothe. Every argument you make for Volke fighting goes just as equally against Sothe fighting. Oh right, Sothe isn't going to fight. He's going to run around and hope he survives. Right. Reikken would make a terrible bedfellow Going slow = you get less exp, so rushing is better. What are you? An overweight 6 year old at an all you can eat Buffet? Those little kids will chow down everything in sight, at five or six plates. Why? I dunno. They're fatties. Us sophisticated adults are more than happy to have a helping or two of some of the things we actually enjoy about the buffet. That's right. I compared FE9 to a buffet. Rushing through, in my mind, means doing things like getting Ike to the exit as fast as possible, or killing the boss as fast as possible. So sure you get more bonus exp...but you lose out in a lot of...well...actual exp. Quote: With 80 hp doors, that takes quite a bit Does it matter? While one of your dudes is bashing down the door, your healers are doing their work so you can enter the next part of the level fully healed. Doesn't seem like all that bad a deal to me. Quote: And Ike and Titania are all that is needed for combat. What's your point? My point is that Volke is a fireman. And firemen are clearly men made out of fire. That makes Volke a fire type Pokemon. Can Sothe say that? Well...Sothe has a skill called Blossom. That makes Sothe a grass type. We all know that fire > grass. Quote: Why would you even want to fill every single slot, especially since many chapters don't let you take as many, so you're either using some random unit you haven't been using, or you're making people sit out. And using fewer units is better anyway. See, you did it again! If you're using a small team, then Rolf's exp consumption isn't as (oh goodness, word of the debate:) detrimental as you say it is. You're either going to argue for a large team where Rolf's experience stealing is detrimental, or a smaller team with the-Sothe-whose-job-can-be-done-by-Volke and Rolf=whose=experience=stealing-is-not-such-a-big-deal-now. Quote: His offense is never good. It becomes non-ubersuck after he promotes, but that's only if you poured in tons of extra exp, and that's still not good. Never is such a harsh word. How about, fairly often it's not good? I dunno, Rolf's offense is pretty good, especially when he's running around with a Killer bow. Sure it relies on criticals, but...it still gets the job done most of the time. Oh, right. And there aren't any enemy fliers in this game ever. Ever. Quote: lol @ Gatrie being good Now, for those characters to be good, you have to have been using them all because otherwise they're just underleveled with no supports, etc. And I'm pretty sure this chapter lets you take even more units than that, though I could be mistaken. Anyway, the more units you use, the lower their levels and the fewer skill/statups/whatever they get, etc., so it's not good to use massive teams. What are you talking about? It's not like this game has a severe deficiency of either bonus experience or actual experience. In fact, there's more than plenty of it. If Muarim can gain a gajillion levels in a few chapters, according to your formulae, then these characters can all gain a hell of a lot more! Quote: No, dude. His avoid is decent. And few can 1-hit him. And it rly doesn't matter. If something can kill him, just keep him out of range. You can see enemy ranges for a reason. And chests don't attack, Priests don't attack, and Bishops suck so much at attacking that they're not a threat to even Sothe. Once again, you've gotten me confused. Sothe is going to go wail on priests? What a douchebag. Besides, not ever chapter has priests that will just sit there and take damage from you. They're probably going to, you know, run away. Oh, unless you want to level up Sothe by boxing the priest in with three other units of yours and let Sothe 1 damage him forever until he dies, while gaining experience. You can do that right? Oh no wait, you can't. You prefer rushing through the game. So you're dumping bonus experience on Sothe instead, right? How is that less hurtful to your team than giving it to Rolf? That makes no sense to me. At least Rolf can shoot a bow. Sothe wants to go open chests that any other unit in their right mind (ie with a chest key) can do. Quote: Oh snap, he can one-round a level 1 unit! Those are Vigilates that you're not supposed to kill. They're made so that it's hard to not kill them. You even get a reward for not killing them, so that's not helping anything. And he actually can't kill magic users. Chapter 11's level 12 mages have about 5 def and 23 hp. Volke has 12 atk. He needs 4 hits to kill a mage. wtf. This guy doesn't need to be fighting ever. Volke is not for this level. Nossir. Sothe doesn't even exist yet. But...gasp you're going to want some support. Holy crap, you've got Rolf. Forget the other supports. At least for earlygame utility, have Rolf something along the lines with C Mordecai, go up to Zihark. Nab him, then have Rolf pick on a few units for experience. Mordy shouldn't be transformed yet. Have them run like hell! I mean, hell. Send unarmed Titania up there to rescue Rolf after he's fired a potshot at an unsuspecting, yet still alive Vigilante before running away. Let's say you did have Sothe, and you'd send Sothe up there to do something like that...he'd die. Quote: Pick at things to gain exp? Even Sothe can do that. Like hack away at priests. Free exp. And his atk sucks, so he can get more out of them without killing them. Ch 13 he's busy with chests, but most of ch 14's enemies have low def, and then from then on, you have Daggers, so he can do at least 1 damage to most things. Aw man. Sothe is a better unit that Rolf because Sothe can do a one damage hit. Oh man. Oh man. I might as well throw in the towel now. Shit, I've beaten the game cuz Sothe can do one damage. Seriously. Rolf can do more than 1 damage, and get good amount of experiience, so chillax on that, okay? Quote: Sothe isn't fighting, so he's not in enemy range. You don't need to be shielded when you're not in enemy range. Because Sothe NEVER EVER EVER needs to be in enemy range EVER. There are never chests that are being guarded by enemy units, there are no such things as long range spells or ballistae, and there are no such thing as reinforcements from various portions of the map. Oh, and if you're using a small team, like you're suggesting, there are going to be holes in your formation that more mobile enemy units can break through. Yeah, that's right. A larger team lets you spread the love on enemy turns, but a smaller team means your one unit is going to be attacked more often as a result. So what happens now? Well, I can only have so many formations with this tiny team, and that Paladin seems to have moved right around my guys and turned Sothe into a Sothe-ka-bob. Well rats. Seems, Reikken, you've led me astray with your false prophesies. You blasphemer. You should be stoned. Oh no wait. You already are because you made a dumbass suggestion like that! Quote: Who cares? He's not getting attacked by anything else, so just keep going, and then kill the mage thing. Unless it can somehow kill him in one hit, he's fine. If it can, just use a Pure Water. Sothe will never ever be attacked in all of the history of ever. Good job. That's all I got from that. Quote: No, not even close. It's like fielding Matthew in Sands of Time to get chests as well as make Guy better. And Volke is not significantly better at fighting. Sure, he can do more damage, but he still can't kill anything, and if he's attacking things and taking counterattacks and being out there by the enemies, he's easily less durable. And also, unless you give Volke massive babying/bexp, Sothe's +15 avo from supports means he actually has more avoid... Hey hey hey, stick to the game here. I don't appreciate those kinds of metaphors! Sothe's +15 avo from supports. Sothe is not getting anything from Astrid. She's getting Makalov, who can actually keep up with her. Astrid will be too busy playing backrow, then later on backrow/frontrow to hang around Sothe. Besides, she can move ahead much further than he is, and then she's going to be getting exp at an alarming rate anyways. She leaves Sothe in the dust. And Sothe is not getting Tormod either. Why? Well because if using Sothe means that I have to use Tormod, too, that's even worse. (Sound familiar?) This +15 avo you're boasting is non-existent, so don't bother. Quote: Sothe gets more avo from his supports, and he's not weak to bows and ballistae like Reyson. As I just stated above, he gets no avo from his supports, because he's just not getting his supports. And of course he's not weak to bows and ballistae like Reyson. Sothe isn't a bird. Sothe also doesn't need to add another weakness to his list. That would make him...well...worse than ever. Quote: Sothe gets you items to use for said fighting, foo. He makes good units better rather than taking exp from good units, making them worse. So once again, where is he getting this experience from? How then is he getting decent supports, and how then is he even getting any semblance of durabiltiy. Is he going to poke every priest he finds? Usually its the priests poking the little boys, not the other way around. You're going to have a hard time backing up your claim if you can't tell me where you're getting this experience from. And if you say bonus experience, I am going to slap you, because you've been nagging on the fact that Rolf needs a little bonus experience boost. Quote: lol, level 11. If you dump 500 bexp on him, level 8-9 would be reasonable. 700 for level 11. Reikken, if you love numbers so much, why don't you just marry them? Quote: lol, no. Rolf's offense is never on par with that of top tier units, and especially not when he's a few levels behind. Kieran is beating him in atk by about 6. Rolf's attack is about on par with Mist's even when he's using more exp. Impressive crit? 20 crit is not impressive at all. Of course Rolf's offense is never on par with that of the top tier units. That's why he's in the low tier debates, silly. However, he's not so low tier that he can't contribute to the battle in any fashion. I mean, c'mon. Kieran is an axe knight. If he were losing to a little hamster kid with a bow, he'd be a pretty shitty axe knight. 20 Crit isn't that impressive, but it's better than most units in this game. Quote: Amazing; just like Sothe. Except Sothe doesn't even have to be that close as he can be 3 spaces behind the frontline. Well what's he doing back there? Masturbating? Tell Sothe to get a room. He can do that while he's not on the battlefield with the rest of my units. Sothe can practice self love, because he sure as hell ain't gettin no lovin from me! Quote: Paladin Band is one of the best bands for mages and shiz. Give it to Soren to make his avoid even higher, give it to Ilyana to keep her speed up later in the game, etc. Waste it on Rhys just so I can support Rolf? No way. And even then, use this guy over Mist? No way. And even then, sure, he's nice as a healer in the earlygame, but after promotion, sages can heal too, so there's no reason at all to keep around a sucky unit. If using Rolf means I need to use Rhys, too, that's even worse. Screw Rhys. We're not using him. We'll use Rolf. And we'll run him around with a couple C supports, instead of bumping one just straight up to A. Let's Mist x Jill A, Mist x Boyd C, Mist x Rolf C. Marcia x Kieran A, Marcia x Rolf B He doesn't get full support bonus, but he's got some good shit going for him there after all. Quote: Titania, Jill, Boyd, and Mordecai? No, Rolf is never even touching this one. I can only assume you're talking about the Mist Support. Uh, hullo. Rolf x Mist is such harmwarming dialogue. Much better than any of the drivel Sothe can spout. Rolf actually has character development in this game, it's actually rather interesting. Sothe is just an uninteresting character for now. The only thing that makes Sothe slightly noteworthy is that he has a big part in the upcoming fire emblem. But that doesn't pertain to FE9, which we're debating right now. Quote: Except Dorcas can kill things in one hit, and yet he's still low tier. Gatrie can't, and he even has less mobility. This guy sucks. And then, you can't bait out armies unless you have the move to actually get out there in front of everyone. You can't take hits for someone unless you can move over in front of them. He's like Mordecai with half the move, zero doubling ability instead of meh doubling ability, and no earlygame raeping skillz. Yes, Gatrie sucks. Srsly. He's alot like Wallace, and that guy sucks hard even without the recruitment requirements. I've been raggin on you real hard tonight, Reikken. So here. I'll just agree with you on this one. Then you can have a cookie. Then we'll go spoon and see if you've gotten better. Quote: You don't need to see combat to be in support range. Sothe is a backliner that thieves instead of attacks ranged, and he can be even farther back than ranged attackers. Instead of 2 spaces away from the enemy, it's 3 spaces away from an ally. He'll always be safe there. There are never enemy reinforcements from behind, or longe range things...or fliers. Huh. Quote: You fergatted Sothe's supports. +15 avo. And Sothe won't be at base level. He can indeed damage things, many enemies can't counterattack, and he even gets exp from stealing. Reyson has massive res, but Sothe has no weakness to bows and laguzslaying weapons, and res can even be boosted. Of course I "fergatted" Sothe's supports. I purposely "fergatted" them because...well...they shouldn't exist in the first place. Quote: level 11 vs level 1 on ch 9 level 17 vs level 7 on ch 16 Even more underleveled? Nope. What makes Tormod so much better than Rolf? They both need bexp, but the difference is that Tormod actually becomes good. 20/4 Rolf = 16.8 str + 9 Steel Bow = 25.8 atk. 20/4 Tormod = 18.2 mag + 7 Elthunder + 1 B Sothe = 26.2 atk. Tormod ties/beats Rolf in attack, except he attacks res, so he's raping him in offense. And Tormod has staves, which are h4x in this gaem, and 1-2 range, which is also pretty h4x. And he has more move. I'm gonna find something for you. Maybe you'll remember it. Reikken ragging on Tormod Soren starts out with a 10+ level lead over Tormod, and Tormod never recovers. Soren is obviously much much better at chapter 20. Your units should be promoting around 17.2, so by chapter 20, most of your units, except Ike and Volke, who are held back a bit by their later promotion time, should be around 20/6, which is the level Calill joins at, so Soren and Calill are equal in level. Soren has 0.8 hp, 2.3 mag, and 1.6 spd. Calill has 0.4 hp and 4.8 str, but since Soren would be wearing the knight band, it would be 3.6 str and Soren leading by 0.8 in def. Either way, Soren is the better sage; he has 1.6 more AS, for only 0.7 less atk if Calill uses Elthunder and Soren uses Thunder, or if he needs the atk, he can use Elthunder for 2.3 more atk and the same AS. Calill won't be able to double the paladins or faster weapon knights, while Soren will. With Meteor, Calill loses 3 AS, and Soren loses 6.6, giving Calill the spd advantage by 2.0, but neither will be able to double, so Soren wins because he's doing more damage and has Adept. And in case you were wondering, Tormod won't be able to double anyting, due to his crap level. Even if he was on the same level, the situation would be the same as with Calill, except Soren's speed advantage would only be 0.5, Soren would still win, but Tormod can't be on the same level, so it doesn't even matter. Also, at this point, Soren has supports, B Ike and C Stefan, while Callil has none. (Janaff doesn't have any either, unless he supports with Shinon, whose stats are utter garbage at this point, and even then it would only be a C.) I don't know what you were talking about with that Superior sage nonsense, because, as you can see, Soren is clearly winning, and ontop of that, Calill can't even use staves! Go further? Level 11? Chapter 23? Okaye. What band you wanna give Calill? Mage band to help counter Soren's massive mag growth? Nah, when she uses Elthunder, she can killinate everything in two hits anyway, so how about a paladin band to help her double? Okaye. Against Calill, Soren wins by 3.0 mag, 1.05 spd, and 0.35 hp, and Calill wins by 0.25 def, and 4.45 str. Now when Calill uses Elthunder, Soren w/Thunder has 1.05 more AS while having the same atk. Now when she uses Meteor, she may be able to double a few of the really slow enemies, while Soren is hitting for 3.0 more damage. About the same. Soren wins here due to his slightly higher AS with normal tomes and Calill's lack of staves. Tormod loses to both because he's still on a lower level. Ilyana loses because her spd just sucks. Further? Okaye. Level 16. Chapter 26. Soren wins by 3.6 mag and 0.5 spd, and Calill wins by 0.2 hp and 1.2 def and 5.1 str. Elthunder vs Thunder: Soren has 0.6 atk and 0.5 spd. Calill has 1.2 def and 0.2 hp. Neither's advantages will make much a difference, so Soren's staves nets him the win. Further? Final Chapter: Soren wins because he can help out with the Ashnard fight by offering much-needed healing. Calill cannot. So overall, Soren and Calill perform about the same, but Soren's staves push him to the top. Tormod lags behind because of his poor starting level. Huh. why are you bothering to use Tormod at all if you're so convinced that Soren is so much better, Reikky? Quote: Sure, if you give him loads of bexp/babying. Yes, and I intend to. I'm using a small team, like you suggested, so what's the harm? It's not like he's being detrimental, as the team is still getting all the exp they need. Quote: I dunno where you're getting that bull from. His offense is not good at all. I'm a Taurus. Quote: So you give Rolf bexp, which takes exp from the rest of the team, and then he does his thing, killing stuff, or trying to...more like stealing kills since he's still underleveled unless you gave him loads... and in killing things, he's taking even more exp away from the rest of the team. But that's okay, since he was helping out by killing stuff. Or it would be if he didn't suck while doing it. So you have the exp lost by killing things, mostly made up for by him helping out + exp lost by giving him bexp. Net loss. Then, Mist. You give Mist bexp, which takes exp from the rest of the team, and then she does her thing, helping out with healing ppls. So you have the exp lost by giving her bexp, made up for by helping out. Comes out even. Mist can catch up in level without taking up more exp. Rolf has to use up more exp than others to catch up in level. And then after promotion, staff exp isn't halved like in some games, and Physic gives 22 exp per use, so staff users get h4x levels. Yeah. It's not that big a deal. This game has plenty of experience. Mist can do her thing just fine. What still bothers me is really...where is Sothe getting all his experience from? Riddle me this, please? Quote: No, using him doesn't mean that you have a massive exp deficiency where your characters all promote 5 chapters later or something, but you do indeed have quite a bit less exp. You could instead use that exp to boost another character or two several levels, making them h4x. That's much better than using Rolf, who's below average even caught up in level. Who. Who then am I going to use? Oh I know, I'll give Shinon a few levels. Or I'll give Gatrie a few levels. Oh no, maybe I'll give Janaff a few levels! Look, I'd much rather take ~~Janaff~~ Rolf over all of them, because at least for quite some time, until you babysit Astrid up or until Boyd promotes, he's going to be your only bow user. And bow users are seriously underrated characters in all FE games. Quote: And again, I don't know where you're getting that from. I got it from this place called "Truth". Pretty weird place, I know...but hey. They're usually right about things. TAKE THAT!
	Quote: Hؿ�� says: Pure genius. Hؿ�� says: Well. 72% genius, 28% alcohol.

Reikken vs Inui · Debates