Viewing Single Post From: Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH

Viewing Single Post From: Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH
Dragon Hellfire	Jun 27 2007, 05:41 PM
Dragon Hellfire; three random words Posts: 1,563 Group: FEFFer Member #812 Joined: June 9, 2006	Quote: Let's start at Ch.10/13, when Gerik and Tethys have joined. Battle stat comparison, assuming that Moulder is supporting Vanessa and Gilliam, while Colm supports no one. Starting on chapter 10/13 would be fine and dandy if our units were like normal units (Such as Gerik for example), but we have a Thief and a Priest. Not normal units. Moulder for one has his own experience pool to derive from. This is experience that is not taking from other units that Tethys can only begin to counterweight after she has joined. All that experience he is gaining for himself before that time adds to our teams usefulness. However, Colm gains more experience due to his experience boost which Gerik sadly doesn't counterweight. Colm is also stealing stuff to help you in the moneys department. That time that Colm and Moulder are there and Gerik and Tethys are not is a point for them. An entire half of this debate is how good Moulder is with Colm. If we were to discuss how they are when they are not supporting each other we would not get an accurate debate on what was meant. You proving that Gerik is better than Moulder when he is supporting other people does not prove he is better than Moulder when he is support Colm, so you've proved nothing. Of course we'll gladly take the support option that you've so nicely claryfied is a possibility for Moulder, and give him B Vanessa. Quote: While Colm is going off somewhere to loot chests, Moulder is staying with the group to heal. They cannot build supports from a mile apart. If Moulder is dragged along with Colm, he won't be healing your group, and they'll be left to have to find another solution for healing. Not that helpful to the rest of your team. Nah. Do you know what chapters he is looting chests before Gerik and Tethys arrive? 2 Eirika route and 3 Ephraim route. Chapter 3's chests are right along the main path of the chapter anyways, so it's still very possible for you to have them support while he's looting. So we're at about 1 chapter for Eirika route and 2 for Ephraim route. Then you have chapter 8 where the first chest you come across is on the main route of the path, so no worries there. The next two are at the end of the chapter where most every enemy is already dead. So there is no reason to not have Moulder tag along (and hurt units so he can gain experience) for them to gain their support. Moulder could just follow Colm to add to their support about 5 turns (10 experience) and while doing that he could be healing wounded units following the pack. 0 problems on Eirika, 1 on Ephraim. So the only way that you can use Colm stealing stuff against us is if we were to go on the Ephraim route. That would just be worse for you though, because both of your units would join 3 chapters later and we would have just that much more time to build our support and level up. Also, Gerik and Tethys aren't insanely compatible. Such as if Tethys wanted Gerik to move and attack again they would not be able to support for that turn. Not only for Gerik too, most likely not all your fighters are two squares away from Gerik where Tethys can just move right next to Gerik for getting the other person to move. It wouldn't be that bad to just skip the support all together because when Gerik and Tethys want to support it takes away from Tethys being able to do what she does best; Dance. Not just dance for anyone two squares away from Gerik. Colm and Moulder are much more compatible than Gerik and Tethys. Quote: On top of that, Colm's affinity doesn't help Moulder much. He needs defensive stats the most, and while Colm's affinity gives him one, Moulder supporting Vanessa and Gilliam gives him full in all three. Moulder only misses out on 8 Eva, Colm on the other hand gains 3 Atk, 3 Def, 3 Res, 7 Hit, 7 Eva, and 7 Crt. Getting all of that >>>>> Missing out on 8 Eva. Quote: Now, you could have Colm and Moulder support when there isn't things to steal. But then, Colm is really doing nothing but be a liability. Whoa whoa whoa, saying that without any backup? On his starting level he can double the enemy brigands; something only Seth, Eirika, and Slim Lance!Vanessa can say. Iron Sword!Colm: 7 x2; 14 Iron Sword!Franz: 10-11 Slim Lance!Vanessa: 5 x2; 10 Iron Axe!Garcia: 13-14 Hatchet!Ross: 7 Iron Lance!Gilliam: 12 Iron Sword!Eirika: 7 x2; 14 Iron Sword!Seth: 17 x2 Well obviously Seth wtfraeps him, but aside from that Colm is one of your best offensive units at this point, and he grows faster in level thanks to the experience boost and being slightly underleveled. Defensively he has a massive 53 Eva against the Brigands. The best of them only have 81 base Hit. 81-53=28. 28 is only 16 real hit. If they do somehow land a hit, he can survive it. It would take 12-13 Brigands to take him down on average. It takes him 12 turns to take out all the enemy brigands. Meaning that on counter attacks alone he has a chance of killing all the enemy Brigands before they kill him without healing. Win. Quote: Well, with that past, let's compare their stats. No, your stats are too laughable, even for Eirika route. Moulder should be gaining more than FIVE levels in NINE chapters, and Colm should be gaining more than 8 levels in 8 chapters. Moulder can be gaining at least 11 experience per turn, which is about 9 turns per level. Chapter 2: This chapter only takes about 6 turns, but thats already 55 experience for Moulder. L:3 E:55 Chapter 3: This chapter takes about 8 turns, with getting attacked once 78 experience. L:4 E:33 Chapter 4: 11 turns if you include boss preperation turns; the turns you spend making sure you can defeat the boss. It would be ghey if the boss killed you. 122 experience. L: 5 E:55 Chapter 5: About 12 turns because it would be good to slow down before Joshua so it would be easier to recruit him. Then you have boss preperations at the end of the chapter where Moulder could heal the units that came on the other route. 133 experience. L:6 E:88 Chapter 6: I would just like to note that this chapter is a FoW map, in which a thief like Colm has massive usefulness. He will be able to let your party see danger before it gets to them, which without him would be impossible. Massive usefulness to our team. Anyways, this chapter takes about 8 turns. 89 experience. L:7 E:77 Chapter 7: This one should take about 12 chapters if you go around cleaning everything and making sure you are sexed up by Moulders magical rod for the boss. 133 experience. L:9 E:10 (oshi-) Chapter 8: Godly. This chapter takes about 11 turns to power through ... but that's not it. After that you can go to the backroom and get some chests which takes about 4 turns. These turns Moulder can be healing HP's. So a total of 15 turns. Wow. 166 experience. L:10 E:76 --EPHRAIM ROUTE--(I'll get to Eirika route next time, I swear) Chapter 9Ep: A good 14 turns to complete this chapter. There are chokepoints and quite a bit of enemies, not to mention THE GREATEST BOSS EVER IN IT. Gheb you are going to want to heal up a lot so you can survive him. They say his Mt is OVER 9000!!!! Err, 155 experience. L:12 E:31 Chapter 10Ep: This one is obviously 10 turns. No ifs ands or buts. So 100 experience. L:13 E:31 Chapter 11Ep: The Phantom Ship. Commonly referred to as the hardest chapter in the game, also a FoW. You know what that means, right? Yes, Colm's vision range is helping the party h4x in one of the most h4x chapters. Gerik and Tethys are nowhere to be found. Anyways, this chapter takes about 8 turns. 89 experience. L:14 E:20 Chapter 12Ep: This is a lengthy chapter, as there's lots to go see. If you're short on money you might have to stop by the Arena or such. The boss is a very powerful Cyclops, which means healing preperation with Moulder. 15 turns is a fair estimate methinks. 155 experience. L:15 E:75 Then FINALLY Gerik and Tethys have shown up. After a cumulative 119 turns of Moulder and Colm. I'll be very nice and 6/10 that number for the amount of turns they have supported. That totals 71 turns. Which means they are at a B and have 22 support experience. Ahahahah, wow. Moulder and Vanessa have their B as well. Now before you complain that Moulder will not be healing every turn, note that I did take off turns for when I see fit and I made up for staffs that give more experience than Heal. You also drastically underleveled Colm. I think you failed to realize that just because he is a thief doesn't mean he has bad offense. There are plenty of axe users early on for him to raep with his great Spd and WTA, and his supports give full Atk. The only reason Colm was being so poor of a fighter for you is because of how badly you under leveled him. Colm has the same abilities as your other frontliners, and he has an experience boost. Over all these chapters it is not out of the question for him to be promoted. NOW, after actually looking at what levels our units will be, lets compare them to your team. Colm ((LV21, Rouge, B Moulder)) Atk: 14.2 Hit: 37.4 Crit: 10.6 AS: 19.8 HP: 33.5 Def: 11.5 Res: 8.6 Avo: 60.7 Ddg: 21.2 Moulder ((LV15, B Colm B Vanessa)) Atk: -- Hit: -- Crit: -- AS: 13.8 HP: 28.4 Def: 9 Res: 12 Avo: 46 Ddg: 18.4 Gerik ((LV10)) Atk: 14 Hit: 35 Crit: 6 AS: 13 HP: 32 Def: 10 Res: 4 Avo: 34 Ddg: 8 Tethys ((LV1)) Atk: -- Hit: -- Crit: -- AS: 12 HP: 18 Def: 5 Res: 4 Avo: 34 Ddg: 10 We have two units that are not maining combative usefulness; a thief and a healer. That thief just so happens to be beating your offensive units in every single offensive parameter and every single defensive parameter. How much are they gaining in experience to see how fast Gerik catches up? Well lets just pit them against a level 10 unpromoted and see. Gerik Dealing Damage: 10 Colm Dealing Damage: 6 Oh boy, Gerik is doing tons better right now. Gerik Killing Base: 0 Colm Kiling Base: -13 ya rly Gerik Killing: 30 Colm Killing: 16 So Gerik gains fast. Of course, this is only for a short while, it's easy to say that Colm is 20/6 by the time Gerik promotes. And is Gerik still gaining then? Lets check! I'll use a level 1 promoted unit this time. Gerik Dealing Damage: 10 Colm Dealing Damage: 9 oshi- Gerik Killing Base: 0 Colm Killing Base: 5 wut? Gerik Killing: 30 Colm Killing: 34 w1n. Class bonuses are just too good to beat. So yeah, Colm always has a level lead on Gerik and the rest of the team, which lets his offenses be similar or better than most of them. He is in no way bad offensively. Srsly, full Atk from supports + level lead = win. Moulder is hardly different. He gets a class bonus too. Before that he has a constant flow of experience allowing him to level properly, and then after that he and his offense go raep enemies gaining loads of experience. Ephraim route Moulder and Colm crush Gerik and Tethys statistically throughout, this is without even mentioning other utility. You have a frontliner and a dancer. The dancer is good, while lacking rings even, but the frontliner is just another frontliner that gets thoroughly raeped by a thief. We have the games best healer which is good for keeping your units alive at times and for using a ton of useful staffs such as restore. Restore may not come into play much, but it's insanely good when it does. Colm gets you a bunch of nifty things. Here's what CATS has listed in another debate for reference: From Stealing: Pure Water, Antitoxin, Energy Ring, Red Gem, Speedwing From lockpicking Iron Lance, Hand Axe, Iron Sword, Silver Sword, Elysian Whip, Angelic Robe, Restore, 17500G, Ocean Seal, Hammerne, Tomahawk, Knight Crest, Talisman, Runesword, Fenrir, Speedwing, Red Gem, Body Ring, 3 Elixirs, 2 Guiding Rings, Vulnerary, 5 Lockpicks, Dragonshield, Goddess Icon GG. All this stuff is letting you promote more units, overpower units, get tons of cash, and give them h4x weapons. This is better than what Gerik and Tethys can do for the party combined. With this you can promote 1 flier, 1 thief(lul), 1 Knight/Cavalier, and 2 magic units. Then you can make a "super" unit from all the stat boosters. 7 HP, 2 Str/Mag, 4 Spd, 2 Def, 2 Res, 2 Lck, 2 Con That's insane. Without Colm your units would be quite a bit worse. Just add those stats to one unit and tell me they are not godly. Hell, even bottom tier shit becomes usable with a bit of Colm's magic. What's Tethys do? Oh yeah, let another one of your combative units be a combative unit again, maybe let another one of your healers heal again. That's fine and dandy but it isn't Colm level stuff. And Gerik is Moulder level stuff. Colm and Moulder have wayyy more overall utility than Gerik and Tethys. Next I would like to really get into other supporters. Colm has nobody, check. Moulder has Vaness, a h4x tier unit that wants him and you verified, check. Gerik and Tethys have Marisa? Wait, no. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Bottom tier units for support options don't usually come up. She has a really bad class branch, she comes late and underleveled, and she doesn't even promote that soon because she has too much competition. Joshua, Gerik, and hell, even Garcia want it before her. She never turns out especially good with lackluster offenses and bad defenses, so why the hell would you think this is valid? No. You will be bent on support options unless you tell me why I would use Marisa. Anyways, lets get to endgame stats. Just to see who turns out better, I mean the shock that our team has put on yours should be more than enough to show that our team is greater than yours no matter the final chapter statistics, but lets just see. Colm ((LV38, Rouge, A Moulder)) Atk: 21.3 Hit: 56.35 Crit: 16.15 AS: 29.5(!!!) HP: 46.3 Def: 16.7 Res: 13.0 Avo: 89.7(!!!) Ddg: 31.6 Moulder ((LV33, Bishop, A Colm, B Vanessa)) Atk: 22.6 Hit: 54.4 Crit: 17.8 AS: 20.5 HP: 43.3 Def: 17.2(!!!) Res: 19.2 Avo: 64.8 Ddg: 23.8 Gerik ((LV31, Hero, A Tethys)) Atk: 24.5 Hit: 60 Crit: 26.5 AS: 21 HP: 54 Def: 20 Res: 12 Avo: 71 Ddg: 23.7 Tethys ((LV18, Dancer, A Gerik)) Atk: --- Hit: --- Crit: --- AS: 23.9 HP: 32.4 Def: 11.1 Res: 17.8 Avo: 86.4 Ddg: 32.2 Well statistically your team has improved a lot. By that I mean catching up. Colm is better against a few enemies, because of his ability to double, but Gerik is better (while not as big of a gap as when Colm is good) against a few enemies. Colm has massive EVA so his defenses are not worse Gerik's because he is hardly getting hit, along with his good Def and Res. Tethys isn't fighting and she probably won't be getting attacked due to her inability to counter, so her statistics are moot. The biggest improvement is Moulder the Boulder. He is liek the only magic unit that can frontline fight and do it well. He may not be beating Gerik defensively (besides in Res), but his defenses are definately not worse, and he is not dying ... then you have his offenses. He's a bishop, which have Slayer. Units with Slayer attack monsters for a million damage, and he also attacks Res for those few units that aren't monsters. His Atk is almost as high and his AS might as well be equal, so he's better against non-monsters, then raeps him by too much against monsters. Srsly, Moulder is an endgame god that fails to die and kills everything in his path. Gerik is good sure, but he's not as good as Moulder statistically. So a recap of what's changed: Moulder becomes godly everything units. Gerik gains Axes. Colm no longer needs to use a lockpick. So we've only improved since last comparison. That's right, our team > your team completely through the game.
	.:FES:. Formerly: Juggernaut, FireBane 100% of BwdYetis don't care about your percentages. ~~You're not a BwdYeti, so you can't copy and paste this into your sig. �_�~~

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