Viewing Single Post From: Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH

Viewing Single Post From: Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH
AdamNW	Jun 29 2007, 02:11 PM
Needs moar Sety Posts: 1,554 Group: FEFFer Member #869 Joined: August 7, 2006	okay, I previewed the post and the quote tags weren't working (crosses fingers Quote: Starting on chapter 10/13 would be fine and dandy if our units were like normal units (Such as Gerik for example), but we have a Thief and a Priest. duh? We all know who you are using, one who gains EXP quick, and one who doesn't. Quote: Not normal units. Moulder for one has his own experience pool to derive from. This is experience that is not taking from other units that Tethys can only begin to counterweight after she has joined. That's fine and all, but here's the thing. Moulder only gets 11 EXP per use of a heal staff, or roughly 4 levels per staff. I suppose you could abuse this, but I suppose we could abuse Tethys, right? But we hit another problem. Mouder isn't going to be able to heal every turn, and once he does, that's it, nothing else worth noting. Tethys can start dancing from turn 1, and after she does, the unit she danced for can go attack again. Neither will gain EXP that fast, but Tethys doesn't need to promote, whereas moulder does. Lute is a far better choice for the first guiding ring, then Artur. Quote: All that experience he is gaining for himself before that time adds to our teams usefulness. I suppose, but I doubt his promotion will be before Gerik and Tethys join Quote: However, Colm gains more experience due to his experience boost which Gerik sadly doesn't counterweight. The thief bonus is his ONLY good area beyond his avoid. Poor stats all around in which supports HAVE to make up for, which is why Colm has such an advantage against Gerik when comparing stats at his joining time. Quote: Colm is also stealing stuff to help you in the moneys department. No funds rank lol Quote: That time that Colm and Moulder are there and Gerik and Tethys are not is a point for them. If gerik was a thief and Tethys was a cleric, yes, it would. But Colm is a thief and Moulder a priest, them joining at the same level when Gerik and Tethys join would be terrible. Quote: An entire half of this debate is how good Moulder is with Colm. If we were to discuss how they are when they are not supporting each other we would not get an accurate debate on what was meant. no, it's accurate. Moulder and Colm fail together because they shouldn't be supporting Quote: You proving that Gerik is better than Moulder when he is supporting other people does not prove he is better than Moulder when he is support Colm, so you've proved nothing. See above Quote: Of course we'll gladly take the support option that you've so nicely claryfied is a possibility for Moulder, and give him B Vanessa. yayz Quote: Nah. Do you know what chapters he is looting chests before Gerik and Tethys arrive? 2 Eirika route and 3 Ephraim route. Erm, what? That made no sense, so I will assume you meant chapters 10 ERI and 12 EPH. Gerik and tethys join in chapter 10, and there aren't any chests here. I'm sure you mean 11, in which case there are some, but by now Tethys and Gerik will have a C support. Same goes for 12, no chests. Quote: Chapter 3's chests are right along the main path of the chapter anyways, so it's still very possible for you to have them support while he's looting. So we're at about 1 chapter for Eirika route and 2 for Ephraim route. 2 for ephraim route? We've only hit one set of chests so far... Quote: Then you have chapter 8 where the first chest you come across is on the main route of the path, so no worries there. The next two are at the end of the chapter where most every enemy is already dead. So there is no reason to not have Moulder tag along (and hurt units so he can gain experience) for them to gain their support. Moulder could just follow Colm to add to their support about 5 turns (10 experience) and while doing that he could be healing wounded units following the pack. 0 problems on Eirika, 1 on Ephraim. So we've gone from chapters w/ chests to problems? What are you talking about? :slowpoke: Quote: So the only way that you can use Colm stealing stuff against us is if we were to go on the Ephraim route. lol not rly. Colm hits up 3 chests in ephraims route, compared to 0 in Eirika's route before Gerik and Tethys join. LOL fail. Quote: That would just be worse for you though, because both of your units would join 3 chapters later and we would have just that much more time to build our support and level up. You remind me of Nin in this post. Always pointing out the obvious... lol. If you want that support with Gerik and Tethys, why would you go to ephraim's route again? It only makes it harder on Gerik to level and even harder on Tethys should she fall in range of an archer or something (any smart tactician wouldn't be shoving her into melee range.) Quote: Also, Gerik and Tethys aren't insanely compatible. Such as if Tethys wanted Gerik to move and attack again they would not be able to support for that turn. ...or she can dance for ANOTHER unit so they can do their business. Say, colm? Tethys would make Colm's life easier by enabling him to go get chests faster. She can also dance for gerik for the hell of it, rite? Quote: Not only for Gerik too, most likely not all your fighters are two squares away from Gerik where Tethys can just move right next to Gerik for getting the other person to move. Or we can have Tethys dance, THEN gerik can go and move next to her, right? Quote: It wouldn't be that bad to just skip the support all together because when Gerik and Tethys want to support it takes away from Tethys being able to do what she does best; Dance. lolno. A couple scenarios where put above Quote: Not just dance for anyone two squares away from Gerik. Colm and Moulder are much more compatible than Gerik and Tethys. There are times when this DOES happen, and when it does, you probably shouldn't ignore it. Unless you were TRYING to avoid the support, but then again why would you? Quote: Moulder only misses out on 8 Eva, Colm on the other hand gains 3 Atk, 3 Def, 3 Res, 7 Hit, 7 Eva, and 7 Crt. Getting all of that >>>>> Missing out on 8 Eva. The only way Moulder couldn't possibly benefit from that is if you weren't planning to promote him, thus making him obsolete along with the whole support. Now what? This is why Colm and Nemi are a much better A, the support is faster, both will be promoting quickly, and the bonuses are far more superior for both 3/4 classes the two can promote to. Quote: Whoa whoa whoa, saying that without any backup? Is there anything to back up? No, really, anything? No. His offense if horrible as he starts to level, as he relies on that support to do decent damage. Quote: On his starting level he can double the enemy brigands; something only Seth, Eirika, and Slim Lance!Vanessa can say. Hmm... but he can steal in this chapter. Othin said whenever there is no stealing to be done, and there is stealing to be done Quote: Iron Sword!Colm: 7 x2; 14 Iron Sword!Franz: 10-11 Slim Lance!Vanessa: 5 x2; 10 Iron Axe!Garcia: 13-14 Hatchet!Ross: 7 Iron Lance!Gilliam: 12 Iron Sword!Eirika: 7 x2; 14 Iron Sword!Seth: 17 x2 So, if Garcia does roughly the same damage with one hit compared to Colm with two hits, why would you be using Colm? lolfail You also forgot everyone's favorite pink haired archer, Nemi. Quote: Well obviously Seth wtfraeps him, but aside from that Colm is one of your best offensive units at this point, and he grows faster in level thanks to the experience boost and being slightly underleveled. So is Neimi AND Ross. Ross will be underleveled but still somewhat on par to your other axe users THE ENTIRE GAME, so using Ross would be better then using Colm? Nah. Quote: Defensively he has a massive 53 Eva against the Brigands. The best of them only have 81 base Hit. 81-53=28. 28 is only 16 real hit. If they do somehow land a hit, he can survive it. It would take 12-13 Brigands to take him down on average. It takes him 12 turns to take out all the enemy brigands. Meaning that on counter attacks alone he has a chance of killing all the enemy Brigands before they kill him without healing. Win. You are going to kill ALL OF DEM BRIGANDS with colm? No wonder he gains so much experience, your abusing him. Quote: No, your stats are too laughable, even for Eirika route. Moulder should be gaining more than FIVE levels in NINE chapters stabs Othin >_> Quote: and Colm should be gaining more than 8 levels in 8 chapters. Moulder can be gaining at least 11 experience per turn, which is about 9 turns per level. 9 turns = 99 exp, lol. That's seriously all I can point out here, because I don't want to stab my partner again Quote: Chapter 2: This chapter only takes about 6 turns, but thats already 55 experience for Moulder. L:3 E:55 Congratz, you can do math. Quote: Chapter 4: 11 turns if you include boss preperation turns; the turns you spend making sure you can defeat the boss. It would be ghey if the boss killed you. 122 experience. L: 5 E:55 NO. Not at all. If Moulder needs to heal that much just to make sure you can kill an entombed, he fails. And, why not just have Lute and Artur kill him? Avoiding counters is good, right? We all know that Lute is the best anima user. Quote: Chapter 5: About 12 turns because it would be good to slow down before Joshua so it would be easier to recruit him. Then you have boss preperations at the end of the chapter where Moulder could heal the units that came on the other route. 133 experience. L:6 E:88 This assumes you are wasting turns where Natasha can heal as well, which wastes your staves majorly. While your at it, go arena abuse Quote: Chapter 6: I would just like to note that this chapter is a FoW map, in which a thief like Colm has massive usefulness. And I would like to note that A is the first letter of the alphabet. Don't you think we know that? Quote: He will be able to let your party see danger before it gets to them, which without him would be impossible. Massive usefulness to our team. Anyways, this chapter takes about 8 turns. 89 experience. L:7 E:77 If this is the bigger map (and more dangerous boss), why is it taking less turns to complete? Quote: Chapter 7: This one should take about 12 chapters if you go around cleaning everything and making sure you are sexed up by Moulders magical rod for the boss. 133 experience. L:9 E:10 (oshi-) Um, I'm sorry, chapters? And 133 exp is only if he gets attacked, in which he is very likely to be hit. If he gets hit, it's only safe to use a vulnerary, which is minus one heal. 122 EXP, which leaves him at lvl 8 with 99 EXP lol. Quote: Chapter 8: Godly. This chapter takes about 11 turns to power through ... but that's not it. After that you can go to the backroom and get some chests which takes about 4 turns. These turns Moulder can be healing HP's. So a total of 15 turns. Wow. 166 experience. L:10 E:76 lvl 10 with 65 EXP lol. No other comments here, other then Colm won't be getting supports here. --EPHRAIM ROUTE--(I'll get to Eirika route next time, I swear) Quote: Chapter 9Ep: A good 14 turns to complete this chapter. There are chokepoints and quite a bit of enemies, not to mention THE GREATEST BOSS EVER IN IT. Gheb you are going to want to heal up a lot so you can survive him. They say his Mt is OVER 9000!!!! Err, 155 experience. L:12 E:31 I don't really remember this chapter well, so I don't have any comments here. lvl 12 with 20 EXP though... Quote: Chapter 10Ep: This one is obviously 10 turns. No ifs ands or buts. So 100 experience. L:13 E:31 again, he got hit. Minus one heal, assuming he lived through it. Level 13, 9 EXP Quote: Chapter 11Ep: The Phantom Ship. Commonly referred to as the hardest chapter in the game, also a FoW. You know what that means, right? Yes, Colm's vision range is helping the party h4x in one of the most h4x chapters. :crash: Okay, enough with the obvious shit, DH. Srsly. That isn't helping MOULDER any, why bring it up? Quote: Gerik and Tethys are nowhere to be found. Anyways, this chapter takes about 8 turns. 89 experience. L:14 E:20 Wow, do you ever know when to stop pointing out the obvious. We all know that Tethys aint here. Quote: Chapter 12Ep: This is a lengthy chapter, as there's lots to go see. If you're short on money you might have to stop by the Arena or such. The boss is a very powerful Cyclops, which means healing preperation with Moulder. 15 turns is a fair estimate methinks. 155 experience. L:15 E:75 By now, Artur and Lute should be able to take care of him, but you never know. Quote: Then FINALLY Gerik and Tethys have shown up. After a cumulative 119 turns of Moulder and Colm. I'll be very nice and 6/10 that number for the amount of turns they have supported. That totals 71 turns. Which means they are at a B and have 22 support experience. Ahahahah, wow. Moulder and Vanessa have their B as well. Now before you complain that Moulder will not be healing every turn, note that I did take off turns for when I see fit and I made up for staffs that give more experience than Heal. .....no. From the non existant base it takes 80 turns to go B. They need 9 more turns. Get it right kthx. Quote: You also drastically underleveled Colm. I think you failed to realize that just because he is a thief doesn't mean he has bad offense. That's actually exactly what it means. Poor as fuck skill and not so great strength leave him relying on supports again* to kill anything. What's funny, is that Gerik's base strength is higher then 20/-- colm's. Lol. Now, with supports (B as you gave below), Colm makes it equal. Wow, sad. How the hell will Weak old Colm make it up? Well, he doubles every fucking thing on the map. Good? Sorta. Why? Gerik isn't having majorly bad doubling problems either. And if he doesn't double, Tethys is right there next to him dancing for him lol. Colm fails here. Quote: There are plenty of axe users early on for him to raep with his great Spd and WTA, and his supports give full Atk. The only reason Colm was being so poor of a fighter for you is because of how badly you under leveled him. supports aren't going to help him much when his cap throughout the whole game is 20, and he won't be hitting that any time soon, I guarantee you. If by some miracle he DID cap, he only has 30 atk with an iron sword, A moulder, and B Neimi. Or, 43 with Ahudlama. Now, is that very good? Not really. Totally ignoring supports on Gerik's part, he actually does cap Strength at 25 as a hero (talking 20/20 at least). 30 atk with an iron sword, or 43 with Ahudlama. THEN, if we give him supports, it goes up by two (A Tethys B Joshua). 45 > 43. I'm being nice and giving Colm the sword he should NEVER have, btw. If your going to complain about why Gerik is 20/20, think about it. Do you honestly think that Colm has a chance in hell of capping strength at 20/20? Be lucky I gave him that. Colm has a 7% chance of capping strength at 20/10, but Gerik over here has a 30% chance of capping strength at 20/10. Now tell me, how sad is it that Gerik is more capable of hitting his cap then Colm when Gerik's is 5 points higher? Supports barely make up for Colm's loss. Quote: Colm has the same abilities as your other frontliners, and he has an experience boost. Over all these chapters it is not out of the question for him to be promoted. NOW, after actually looking at what levels our units will be, lets compare them to your team. Colm ((LV21, Rouge, B Moulder)) Atk: 14.2 Hit: 37.4 Crit: 10.6 AS: 19.8 HP: 33.5 Def: 11.5 Res: 8.6 Avo: 60.7 Ddg: 21.2 Moulder ((LV15, B Colm B Vanessa)) Atk: -- Hit: -- Crit: -- AS: 13.8 HP: 28.4 Def: 9 Res: 12 Avo: 46 Ddg: 18.4 Gerik ((LV10)) Atk: 14 Hit: 35 Crit: 6 AS: 13 HP: 32 Def: 10 Res: 4 Avo: 34 Ddg: 8 Tethys ((LV1)) Atk: -- Hit: -- Crit: -- AS: 12 HP: 18 Def: 5 Res: 4 Avo: 34 Ddg: 10 We have two units that are not maining combative usefulness; a thief and a healer. That thief just so happens to be beating your offensive units in every single offensive parameter and every single defensive parameter. How much are they gaining in experience to see how fast Gerik catches up? Well lets just pit them against a level 10 unpromoted and see. Gerik Dealing Damage: 10 Colm Dealing Damage: 6 Oh boy, Gerik is doing tons better right now. Gerik Killing Base: 0 Colm Kiling Base: -13 ya rly Gerik Killing: 30 Colm Killing: 16 So Gerik gains fast. Of course, this is only for a short while, it's easy to say that Colm is 20/6 by the When gerik promotes is when he starts winning in offenses. Fuck colm's level lead, It isn't making him look any better. Quote: time Gerik promotes. And is Gerik still gaining then? Lets check! I'll use a level 1 promoted unit this time. Gerik Dealing Damage: 10 Colm Dealing Damage: 9 oshi- Gerik Killing Base: 0 Colm Killing Base: 5 wut? Gerik Killing: 30 Colm Killing: 34 ZOMG no EXP rankings, remember? Quote: w1n. Class bonuses are just too good to beat. Not really Quote: So yeah, Colm always has a level lead on Gerik and the rest of the team, which lets his offenses be similar or better than most of them. level lead =/= good. The fact that colm has to rely on supports to deal damage is bad. With full supports, Gerik demolishes Colm offensively. Quote: He is in no way bad offensively. Srsly, full Atk from supports + level lead = win. Bad? No. Worse then Gerik? Most definately. Quote: Moulder is hardly different. Quote: He gets a class bonus too. Before that he has a constant flow of experience allowing him to level properly, and then after that he and his offense go raep enemies gaining loads of experience. Not by much, especially considering he won't be promoting as soon as the other units. Quote: but the frontliner is just another frontliner that gets thoroughly raeped by a thief. lol no. If gerik gets his A support with tethys in chapter, say, 16, and B with joshua in the same chapter, where the average level is about 20/2, Gerik will have ~20 strength, 22 with supports, 33 with a steel blade. Now, if Colm gets his little level lead of 20/7, with full supports, he has ~15 strength, 20 with supports, 25 with iron sword. Now now, I'm sure your wondering 'why does Gerik get a steel blade?' Because he isn't slowed down by it like Colm. Colm has 7 con going into Rouge, meaning he can only lift the Wrymslayer, Slim Sword, Shadowkiller (I'm not totally sure if it is even in the game), Iron sword, and Killing Edge. The Killing Edge isn't going to Rogue Colm because Joshua will make much better use of it as a SM, the slim sword... lol, they Wrymslayer is fairly rare, so all that leaves is the iron sword. Now, I know what your thinking: "He has enough AS as it is." True, Rogue colm has ~24 AS alone, but if I gave him a Steel Blade, he is weighed down to ~17 AS, compared to Gerik's ~18 AS. lol. Of course, Colm will be doubling for 50 mt with an Iron sword, but Gerik, assuming for some reason he DOESN'T double, can have Tethys dance for him, having an overall mt of 66. 66 > 50 lol. Quote: We have the games best healer which is good for keeping your units alive at times and for using a ton of useful staffs such as restore. YAY, GO MOULDER. He still isn't benefitting from the bonuses when he is healing, however... Quote: Restore may not come into play much, but it's insanely good when it does. Making Moulder good alone, but it isn't helping Colm whatsoever Quote: Colm gets you a bunch of nifty things. Here's what CATS has listed in another debate for reference: From Stealing: Pure Water, Antitoxin, Energy Ring, Red Gem, Speedwing From lockpicking Iron Lance, Hand Axe, Iron Sword, Silver Sword, Elysian Whip, Angelic Robe, Restore, 17500G, Ocean Seal, Hammerne, Tomahawk, Knight Crest, Talisman, Runesword, Fenrir, Speedwing, Red Gem, Body Ring, 3 Elixirs, 2 Guiding Rings, Vulnerary, 5 Lockpicks, Dragonshield, Goddess Icon GG. Yeah, go colm, getting weapons that cost next to nothing in the store :\ I can't disagree to this point otherwise. Quote: All this stuff is letting you promote more units, overpower units, get tons of cash, and give them h4x weapons. This is better than what Gerik and Tethys can do for the party combined. With this you can promote 1 flier, 1 thief(lul), 1 Knight/Cavalier, and 2 magic units. Then you can make a "super" unit from all the stat boosters. The only time I would ever make a super unit is if I was planning to ditch every other one of my units. Just me though, I don't know what you would do. Quote: 7 HP, 2 Str/Mag, 4 Spd, 2 Def, 2 Res, 2 Lck, 2 Con Gogo math! Quote: That's insane. No, really? Quote: Without Colm your units would be quite a bit worse. "ONOEZ! WITHOUT COLM MY UNITS WILL BE AVERAGE! WHAT EVER WILL I DO!" Quote: Just add those stats to one unit and tell me they are not godly. Adding them to one unit would be pointless unless all I had was one unit. Quote: What's Tethys do? Oh yeah, let another one of your combative units be a combative unit again, maybe let another one of your healers heal again. That's fine and dandy but it isn't Colm level stuff. And Gerik is Moulder level stuff. Colm and Moulder have wayyy more overall utility than Gerik and Tethys. no. What you proved is that Colm stealing everything he can AND being able to fight is better then Tethys being able to dance. Well, no shit. Quote: Next I would like to really get into other supporters. Colm has nobody, check. ...okay Quote: Moulder has Vaness, a h4x tier unit that wants him and you verified, check. Quote: Gerik and Tethys have Marisa? Wait, no. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Bottom tier units for support options don't usually come up. She has a really bad class branch, she comes late and underleveled, and she doesn't even promote that soon because she has too much competition. Joshua, Gerik, and hell, even Garcia want it before her. She never turns out especially good with lackluster offenses and bad defenses, so why the hell would you think this is valid? No. FUCK MARISA. okay? Good. Now, Gerik will most likely be getting a B with Joshua, maybe Innes. Tethys may get B Artur, but that's it. that's better then Colm's void of nothingness, right? Quote: You will be bent on support options unless you tell me why I would use Marisa. ...nah Quote: Anyways, lets get to endgame stats. Just to see who turns out better, I mean the shock that our team has put on yours should be more than enough to show that our team is greater than yours no matter the final chapter statistics, but lets just see. Sure sure, whatever Quote: -Colm- Endgame rogue? No, not ever. Quote: -Moulder- okay, okay. Doesn't look that good... Quote: -Gerik- YAWN Quote: -Tethys- 86 avo at a lower level then colm lol Quote: Well statistically your team has improved a lot. By that I mean catching up. sigh Quote: Colm is better against a few enemies, because of his ability to double Gerik can double fine because if his ability to never lose AS AND Tethys dancing for him. Quote: but Gerik is better (while not as big of a gap as when Colm is good) against a few enemies. Colm isn't as good as Gerik against any enemies. Gerik having 2 weapons automatically puts him at the advantage. He can attack the lance-using Wights with axes, whereas colm is at WTD. He can attack Cyclopses with Swords, doing more damage then Colm because of the bad AS cyclopses have. In fact, the only thing Gerik can't double are select Gwyllgies. Quote: Colm has massive EVA so his defenses are not worse Gerik's because he is hardly getting hit, along with his good Def and Res. 71 avo isn't that much worse then 89. Neither will be getting hit that much, but when colm does, he gets hit harder. Quote: Tethys isn't fighting and she probably won't be getting attacked due to her inability to counter, so her statistics are moot. Her inability to counter is decreasing her chances of getting attacked? wtf? And tethys will be dodging just as much at Colm if she ever does get attacked, which won't be likely. Quote: The biggest improvement is Moulder the Boulder. He is liek the only magic unit that can frontline fight and do it well. Are you on crack? 64 avo is HORRIBLE. Look at lute: Lute (lvl 20/15 Sage, A vanessa, B Artur) Atk: 31.9 Hit: 50.2 Crit: 8.45 AS: 21.8 HP: 34.9 Def: 15.9 Res: 26.1 Avo: 91.4 (!!!) Ddg: 47.8 Now, the hit and crit loss won't be mattering much due to her using Anima. She has an INSANE avoid to make up for the minor defense loss. She has overkill CEV and Avo, so she won't be getting hit near as much as Moulder. Quote: He may not be beating Gerik defensively (besides in Res), but his defenses are definately not worse... If he isn't beating Gerik then his defenses are worse \|: Quote: then you have his offenses. He's a bishop, which have Slayer. Units with Slayer attack monsters for a million damage, and he also attacks Res for those few units that aren't monsters. His Atk and AS is higher than Gerik, so he's better against non-monsters, then raeps him by too much against monsters. Quote: Srsly, Moulder is an endgame god that fails to die and kills everything in his path lol so are Artur and Natasha Quote: Gerik is good sure, but he's not as good as Moulder statistically. Moulder is lucky enough to not promote until mostly enemies are about. If he was some monk, Gerik would destroy him Quote: So a recap of what's changed: Moulder becomes godly everything units. Gerik gains Axes. Colm no longer needs to use a lockpick. yeah, basically. Quote: So we've only improved since last comparison. That's right, our team > your team completely through the game. nah. EDIT - fixed tag
	Formerly: Sety

Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH · Debates