Viewing Single Post From: Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH

Viewing Single Post From: Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH
Reikken	Jul 2 2007, 09:44 PM
Posts: 1,838 Group: FEFFer Member #907 Joined: August 26, 2006	Soren Jun 29 2007, 02:11 PM That's fine and all, but here's the thing. Moulder only gets 11 EXP per use of a heal staff, or roughly 4 levels per staff. I suppose you could abuse this, but I suppose we could abuse Tethys, right? But we hit another problem. Mouder isn't going to be able to heal every turn, and once he does, that's it, nothing else worth noting. Tethys can start dancing from turn 1, and after she does, the unit she danced for can go attack again. Neither will gain EXP that fast, but Tethys doesn't need to promote, whereas moulder does. Lute is a far better choice for the first guiding ring, then Artur. He can heal nearly every turn, and he can also use staves that give more exp than Heal, which more than makes up for any turns of healing missed. Quote: I suppose, but I doubt his promotion will be before Gerik and Tethys join ...what? Regardless of whether or not he promotes before they join is irrlevant to this point. He doesn't have to promote before they join to be useful. This is about him being useful before they join at the cost of zero loss of exp to the rest of the team, unlike combat units. Usually a unit helping out before another joins is mostly canceled by that unit also using up exp and stuff, but Moulder is not using up exp, so he's already well in the positive before Gerik and Tethys even show up. Quote: The thief bonus is his ONLY good area beyond his avoid. Poor stats all around in which supports HAVE to make up for, which is why Colm has such an advantage against Gerik when comparing stats at his joining time. If he's beating Gerik, he's beating Gerik. Who cares what factors contribute to it? He's still beating Gerik. Quote: No funds rank lol Okay? Who cares? Saying that is about as ridiculous as saying "No combat rank lol" as a response to someone saying that one unit is better at fighting than another. There don't have to be rankings for more money and items to be useful. Money and items are useful in themselves. Quote: If gerik was a thief and Tethys was a cleric, yes, it would. But Colm is a thief and Moulder a priest, them joining at the same level when Gerik and Tethys join would be terrible. What are you even talking about? Quote: no, it's accurate. Moulder and Colm fail together because they shouldn't be supporting Except...they ARE supporting. Whether they should or shouldn't be doesn't matter because that is indeed what is happening. Quote: Erm, what? That made no sense, so I will assume you meant chapters 10 ERI and 12 EPH. Gerik and tethys join in chapter 10, and there aren't any chests here. I'm sure you mean 11, in which case there are some, but by now Tethys and Gerik will have a C support. Same goes for 12, no chests. ... 2 for ephraim route? We've only hit one set of chests so far... ...? The only way I can make any sense of this is to assume that you misread what was posted, so I'll post it again for you: "Nah. Do you know what chapters he is looting chests [size=2]before[/size] Gerik and Tethys arrive? 2 Eirika route and 3 Ephraim route." Quote: So we've gone from chapters w/ chests to problems? What are you talking about? :slowpoke: I would ask the same of you. Quote: lol not rly. Colm hits up 3 chests in ephraims route, compared to 0 in Eirika's route before Gerik and Tethys join. LOL fail. I believe you missed the point. If there are no chests, there's no reason Colm and Moulder won't be building supports. Quote: You remind me of Nin in this post. Always pointing out the obvious... lol. If you want that support with Gerik and Tethys, why would you go to ephraim's route again? It only makes it harder on Gerik to level and even harder on Tethys should she fall in range of an archer or something (any smart tactician wouldn't be shoving her into melee range.) Gerik and Tethys are worse on Ephraim route. Indeed. And it's not a wholly inferior route or anything like that, so it will be taken. Quote: ...or she can dance for ANOTHER unit so they can do their business. Say, colm? Tethys would make Colm's life easier by enabling him to go get chests faster. She can also dance for gerik for the hell of it, rite? Or we can have Tethys dance, THEN gerik can go and move next to her, right? Gerik is supposed to be attacking, not following Tethys. Quote: lolno. A couple scenarios where put above They were half scenarios at best. They didn't factor in that Gerik needs to be attacking enemies. Quote: There are times when this DOES happen, and when it does, you probably shouldn't ignore it. Unless you were TRYING to avoid the support, but then again why would you? ....what? Quote: The only way Moulder couldn't possibly benefit from that is if you weren't planning to promote him, thus making him obsolete along with the whole support. Now what? This is why Colm and Nemi are a much better A, the support is faster, both will be promoting quickly, and the bonuses are far more superior for both 3/4 classes the two can promote to. I don't know why either of you are even talking about this. And yours doesn't make much sense... Quote: Is there anything to back up? No, really, anything? No. His offense if horrible as he starts to level, as he relies on that support to do decent damage. Oh please. Well, while we're making baseless claims, here's another one: Gerik's offense is horrible, so he won't be reaching many levels. Quote: Hmm... but he can steal in this chapter. Othin said whenever there is no stealing to be done, and there is stealing to be done point for Colm...! Quote: So, if Garcia does roughly the same damage with one hit compared to Colm with two hits, why would you be using Colm? lolfail ou mai gaaa Franz also does less than Garcia. I guess we can't use Franz either. Oh wait, Garcia also does less than Seth. Zomg, no one can fight except Seth. I guess everyone else is worthless. Oh, but wait! Colm can still steal things. w1n. Quote: You also forgot everyone's favorite pink haired archer, Nemi. Awesome. Colm gets a B support. And it's uber-fast, too. w1n Quote: So is Neimi AND Ross. Ross will be underleveled but still somewhat on par to your other axe users THE ENTIRE GAME, so using Ross would be better then using Colm? Nah. What are you talking about? This isn't about who gets the most exp. Quote: You are going to kill ALL OF DEM BRIGANDS with colm? No wonder he gains so much experience, your abusing him. He can indeed do it. The point is that suggesting that he sucks at fighting or something is ridiculous. Quote: stabs Othin >_> ...! Quote: 9 turns = 99 exp, lol. That's seriously all I can point out here, because I don't want to stab my partner again Other staves besides Heal exist, so it's more than 99. Quote: Congratz, you can do math. %::% .....this emote needs to be added, srsly. Quote: NO. Not at all. If Moulder needs to heal that much just to make sure you can kill an entombed, he fails. And, why not just have Lute and Artur kill him? Avoiding counters is good, right? We all know that Lute is the best anima user. Huh? Don't you mean that the rest of the team fails? Moulder isn't the one attacking. He's the one keeping people alive. Avoiding counters? If you can heal, you don't even need to avoid counters. Quote: This assumes you are wasting turns where Natasha can heal as well, which wastes your staves majorly. While your at it, go arena abuse Wastes your staves? Staves can be bought. And guess who Moulder's partner is...! Indeed. The master of moneyz. Quote: Quote: Chapter 6: I would just like to note that this chapter is a FoW map, in which a thief like Colm has massive usefulness. And I would like to note that A is the first letter of the alphabet. Don't you think we know that? Indeed. FoW? Good thing we have Colm. Quote: If this is the bigger map (and more dangerous boss), why is it taking less turns to complete? Oh? Do you think it should take more turns? Okay. More exp for Moulder, then. Quote: Um, I'm sorry, chapters? And 133 exp is only if he gets attacked, in which he is very likely to be hit. If he gets hit, it's only safe to use a vulnerary, which is minus one heal. 122 EXP, which leaves him at lvl 8 with 99 EXP lol. or if he uses this thing called Mend. Or whatever other staff. And...if he's only getting hit one time, he doesn't need to heal. Quote: lvl 10 with 65 EXP lol. No other comments here, other then Colm won't be getting supports here. No, Colm is getting supports. Moulder and any other damaged characters can follow. Quote: I don't really remember this chapter well, so I don't have any comments here. lvl 12 with 20 EXP though... You don't remember Gheb?!??!?!1/1/11/ Quote: again, he got hit. Minus one heal, assuming he lived through it. Level 13, 9 EXP wrong again Quote: Quote: Chapter 11Ep: The Phantom Ship. Commonly referred to as the hardest chapter in the game, also a FoW. You know what that means, right? Yes, Colm's vision range is helping the party h4x in one of the most h4x chapters. :crash: Okay, enough with the obvious shit, DH. Srsly. That isn't helping MOULDER any, why bring it up? Last I checked, this debaet was Moulder and Colm* vs Gerik and Tethys. Anyway, yes. FoW...and on the hardest chapter in the game? That would suck if you didn't have Colm. Quote: Wow, do you ever know when to stop pointing out the obvious. We all know that Tethys aint here. Yes. More healing and theiving utility at no cost of exp to the rest of the party ftw. Tethys can't add any of that until she joins...but she isn't here yet..! Quote: Quote: Then FINALLY Gerik and Tethys have shown up. After a cumulative 119 turns of Moulder and Colm. I'll be very nice and 6/10 that number for the amount of turns they have supported. That totals 71 turns. Which means they are at a B and have 22 support experience. Ahahahah, wow. Moulder and Vanessa have their B as well. Now before you complain that Moulder will not be healing every turn, note that I did take off turns for when I see fit and I made up for staffs that give more experience than Heal. .....no. From the non existant base it takes 80 turns to go B. They need 9 more turns. Get it right kthx. No. It takes 60 turns to get to B. 120 points are needed, and this supports is a +2. 120/2 = 60. 71 > 60. by 11 turns. So that's 112 = 22 points towards A. And DH was being nice. Only 60% of the time? Surely you jest. Quote: That's actually exactly what it means. Poor as fuck skill and not so great strength leave him relying on supports again* to kill anything. What's funny, is that Gerik's base strength is higher then 20/-- colm's. Lol. Now, with supports (B as you gave below), Colm makes it equal. Wow, sad. How the hell will Weak old Colm make it up? Well, he doubles every fucking thing on the map. Good? Sorta. Why? Gerik isn't having majorly bad doubling problems either. And if he doesn't double, Tethys is right there next to him dancing for him lol. Colm fails here. ...? If Colm is doing at least as well as Gerik, and Colm fails, that means Gerik fails as well. And since Gerik's only use is combat, and he fails at it, that's really really really bad. And B Neimi = +2 atk for Colm. ftw Quote: supports aren't going to help him much when his cap throughout the whole game is 20, and he won't be hitting that any time soon, I guarantee you. If by some miracle he DID cap, he only has 30 atk with an iron sword, A moulder, and B Neimi. Or, 43 with Ahudlama. Now, is that very good? Not really. Totally ignoring supports on Gerik's part, he actually does cap Strength at 25 as a hero (talking 20/20 at least). 30 atk with an iron sword, or 43 with Ahudlama. THEN, if we give him supports, it goes up by two (A Tethys B Joshua). 45 > 43. I'm being nice and giving Colm the sword he should NEVER have, btw. Wtf if up with this comparison? 20/20? And Colm with an Iron Sword? wtf? Colm = tons of moneys. If he needs a more expensive weapon to kill the enemy, he's using it. Quote: If your going to complain about why Gerik is 20/20, think about it. Do you honestly think that Colm has a chance in hell of capping strength at 20/20? Be lucky I gave him that. Colm has a 7% chance of capping strength at 20/10, but Gerik over here has a 30% chance of capping strength at 20/10. Now tell me, how sad is it that Gerik is more capable of hitting his cap then Colm when Gerik's is 5 points higher? Supports barely make up for Colm's loss. Who cares? Supports DO exist. And even if Gerik did manage to be better, he would have to be winning by a gigantic amount to overcome Colm's thief utility. And he doesn't, so Colm is better. Quote: When gerik promotes is when he starts winning in offenses. Fuck colm's level lead, It isn't making him look any better. Being better at fighting = being better at fighting When Gerik promotes? He has 10 levels to go before then. Quote: ZOMG no EXP rankings, remember? This isn't about exp rank. This is showing you that the level gap is not only not going to close, but it's actually going to grow a bit. Quote: Not really Oh? You would rather not have an exp boost? Quote: level lead =/= good. The fact that colm has to rely on supports to deal damage is bad. With full supports, Gerik demolishes Colm offensively. Demolishes? I like how you backed that up so well. Oh, oh, let me counter: Colm demolishes Gerik offensively. Quote: Bad? No. Worse then Gerik? Most definately. oh? Quote: Quote: Not by much, especially considering he won't be promoting as soon as the other units. Sure he will. He's promoting before Gerik, at least. Quote: lol no. If gerik gets his A support with tethys in chapter, say, 16, and B with joshua in the same chapter, where the average level is about 20/2, Gerik will have ~20 strength, 22 with supports, 33 with a steel blade. Now, if Colm gets his little level lead of 20/7, with full supports, he has ~15 strength, 20 with supports, 25 with iron sword. Now now, I'm sure your wondering 'why does Gerik get a steel blade?' Because he isn't slowed down by it like Colm. Colm has 7 con going into Rouge, meaning he can only lift the Wrymslayer, Slim Sword, Shadowkiller (I'm not totally sure if it is even in the game), Iron sword, and Killing Edge. The Killing Edge isn't going to Rogue Colm because Joshua will make much better use of it as a SM, the slim sword... lol, they Wrymslayer is fairly rare, so all that leaves is the iron sword. Now, I know what your thinking: "He has enough AS as it is." True, Rogue colm has ~24 AS alone, but if I gave him a Steel Blade, he is weighed down to ~17 AS, compared to Gerik's ~18 AS. lol. Of course, Colm will be doubling for 50 mt with an Iron sword, but Gerik, assuming for some reason he DOESN'T double, can have Tethys dance for him, having an overall mt of 66. 66 > 50 lol. lol, Iron Sword. You can buy Killing Edges, so there's no reason for Colm not to be using some. And you can also buy...Silver Blades...! Zomg. They're expensive, but this is Colm. If he ever needs that much atk, he has it. Steel Blades are also quite expensive, btw. Same cost as a Silver Axe. And if Tethys is wasting her turn refreshing Gerik because he didn't double, that's using two people to do the job of one. when instead, I could have just used Colm and then had Moulder free to do whatever. Wow, COLMOULDER is amazing. Quote: YAY, GO MOULDER. He still isn't benefitting from the bonuses when he is healing, however... what? Quote: Making Moulder good alone, but it isn't helping Colm whatsoever Oh no. Moulder isn't Colm. Oh no. Quote: Yeah, go colm, getting weapons that cost next to nothing in the store :\ I can't disagree to this point otherwise. That's because Colm > your team. Quote: Quote: All this stuff is letting you promote more units, overpower units, get tons of cash, and give them h4x weapons. This is better than what Gerik and Tethys can do for the party combined. With this you can promote 1 flier, 1 thief(lul), 1 Knight/Cavalier, and 2 magic units. Then you can make a "super" unit from all the stat boosters. The only time I would ever make a super unit is if I was planning to ditch every other one of my units. Just me though, I don't know what you would do. Indeed. You could make even better use of them. Colm = w1n Quote: Quote: 7 HP, 2 Str/Mag, 4 Spd, 2 Def, 2 Res, 2 Lck, 2 Con Gogo math! Quote: That's insane. No, really? rly Quote: Quote: Without Colm your units would be quite a bit worse. "ONOEZ! WITHOUT COLM MY UNITS WILL BE AVERAGE! WHAT EVER WILL I DO!" I dunno, maybe you should use Colm and then make them h4x. ftw Quote: Quote: Just add those stats to one unit and tell me they are not godly. Adding them to one unit would be pointless unless all I had was one unit. Indeed. Do something even better with them. Quote: Quote: What's Tethys do? Oh yeah, let another one of your combative units be a combative unit again, maybe let another one of your healers heal again. That's fine and dandy but it isn't Colm level stuff. And Gerik is Moulder level stuff. Colm and Moulder have wayyy more overall utility than Gerik and Tethys. no. What you proved is that Colm stealing everything he can AND being able to fight is better then Tethys being able to dance. Well, no shit. Indeed. Colm >>>>>>>>>> Quote: Quote: Next I would like to really get into other supporters. Colm has nobody, check. ...okay or Neimi, as you suggested Quote: Quote: Moulder has Vaness, a h4x tier unit that wants him and you verified, check. %::% ,,,emote pls Quote: FUCK MARISA. okay? Good. Now, Gerik will most likely be getting a B with Joshua, maybe Innes. Tethys may get B Artur, but that's it. that's better then Colm's void of nothingness, right? instantaneous C Neimi ftw? then a rly fast B Quote: You will be bent on support options unless you tell me why I would use Marisa. ...nah Quote: Anyways, lets get to endgame stats. Just to see who turns out better, I mean the shock that our team has put on yours should be more than enough to show that our team is greater than yours no matter the final chapter statistics, but lets just see. Sure sure, whatever Quote: Quote: -Colm- Endgame rogue? No, not ever. What? Quote: Quote: -Moulder- okay, okay. Doesn't look that good... better than your team, at least, and that's all that matters Quote: Quote: -Gerik- YAWN I know. He's pathetic, isn't he? Quote: Quote: -Tethys- 86 avo at a lower level then colm lol She's losing in defensive stats, so I dunno what you're loling about Quote: Quote: Well statistically your team has improved a lot. By that I mean catching up. sigh indeed Quote: Quote: Colm is better against a few enemies, because of his ability to double Gerik can double fine because if his ability to never lose AS AND Tethys dancing for him. Not losing AS doesn't help when his AS isn't high enough to begin with. Tethys dancing for him because he didn't double is wasting Tethys's turn. Moulder never has to waste his making up for Colm not doubling since Colm always doubles. Quote: Quote: but Gerik is better (while not as big of a gap as when Colm is good) against a few enemies. Colm isn't as good as Gerik against any enemies. Gerik having 2 weapons automatically puts him at the advantage. He can attack the lance-using Wights with axes, whereas colm is at WTD. Lancereaver ftw Quote: Quote: Colm has massive EVA so his defenses are not worse Gerik's because he is hardly getting hit, along with his good Def and Res. 71 avo isn't that much worse then 89. Neither will be getting hit that much, but when colm does, he gets hit harder. Yes, it is indeed THAT much worse. A 90 hit enemy has 0% real on Colm and 7.4% real on Gerik A 100 hit enemy has 2.5% real on Colm and 17.1% real on Gerik A 110 hit enemy has 9.0% real on Colm and 30.8% real on Gerik A 120 hit enemy has 19.5% real on Colm and 48.5% real on Gerik Colm > Gerik defensively. And Gerik is the one who gets hit harder from magic. Getting hit way more often and getting hit harder? phail And this is without Neimi. Add in that support and Colm rapes even more. Quote: Quote: Tethys isn't fighting and she probably won't be getting attacked due to her inability to counter, so her statistics are moot. Her inability to counter is decreasing her chances of getting attacked? wtf? And tethys will be dodging just as much at Colm if she ever does get attacked, which won't be likely. No, she has less avo and can't get WTA. Quote: Quote: The biggest improvement is Moulder the Boulder. He is liek the only magic unit that can frontline fight and do it well. Are you on crack? 64 avo is HORRIBLE. Look at lute: How about I don't. Who cares about Lute? Lute is not on your team. Quote: Quote: He may not be beating Gerik defensively (besides in Res), but his defenses are definately not worse... If he isn't beating Gerik then his defenses are worse \|: Do you know what a tie is? Quote: Quote: then you have his offenses. He's a bishop, which have Slayer. Units with Slayer attack monsters for a million damage, and he also attacks Res for those few units that aren't monsters. His Atk and AS is higher than Gerik, so he's better against non-monsters, then raeps him by too much against monsters. Quote: Srsly, Moulder is an endgame god that fails to die and kills everything in his path lol so are Artur and Natasha But Gerik isn't. Quote: Quote: Gerik is good sure, but he's not as good as Moulder statistically. Moulder is lucky enough to not promote until mostly enemies are about. If he was some monk, Gerik would destroy him Good thing Moulder isn't a Monk, eh? Quote: Quote: So a recap of what's changed: Moulder becomes godly everything units. Gerik gains Axes. Colm no longer needs to use a lockpick. yeah, basically. Quote: So we've only improved since last comparison. That's right, our team > your team completely through the game. nah. Nah? Nah what? Is that it? How disappointing...
	NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi)

Odin and Soren vs Reikken and DH · Debates