Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Dragon Hellfire

Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Dragon Hellfire
Big Boss	Jul 12 2007, 12:36 AM
Posts: 650 Group: FEFFer Member #890 Joined: August 19, 2006	Quote: When Garret joins he's your only bald guy. The difference here is that eventually you gain more healers, and by the end of the game you have more than enough. However, you still only have one bald guy. I don't know about you but I do think that more variety in a team would allow you to do many different actions and let you always be able to devise the most effective strategies. Ellen could be bald if she wanted to. Garret, however, doesn't seem to be able to grow hair. Also, having hair>>not having hair. Ellen's hair protects her from the cold in Illia, while Garret is stuck with his baldness. Poor him Quote: Huh? Sorry, it's just that chapters 2 and 3 never struck me as hard in the least. The Soldiers do 7-9 damage to Deak and Lott, and one more to Ward. Assuming Fort. So it's about 4 hits to kill one of them, and the enemies don't double. The amount of enemies is not great, and you won't be taking that many hits from them as you can kill them fairly easily. Deak can double, and Lott can double a few. Iron Blade!Deak and Iron Axe!Lott can one round them. Considering Eva as well and you haven't a problem. The most threatening enemy is probably the Mercenary that Deak can make short work of dealing 14 damage a blow to it, with it only having about 25 HP. So what if those chapters aren't hard? Ellen makes them even easier, because she is there healing. If she didn't exist, your damaged units would need to use a vulnerary or stand a couple turns on a fort, slowing down your progress. Then, I see you like to have Dieck and Lot frontline, and you even said they one round some enemies. This sounds great and all, but, what happens when Dieck/Lot kill an enemy? The next enemy comes and attacks. The more attacks they receive=the chance of them receiving damage grows. So then Ellen goes and heals and everyone is happy. About that mercenary you mention, he has pretty good hit, so whoever gets attacked by him is likely to receive damage, and Ellen will heal. Quote: The enemies thus far aren't a threat to any of your units aside from one; Ellen. Ellen has a total of 16 base DR, and max DR, with no Def and all. The least amount of damage that any unit in my samples do to her is 13, which leaves her with 3 HP left. She can't heal herself outside of a vulnerary, which only places her 3 back up to 13, in which case the weakest unit on the map still kills her in another blow. Then you have stronger enemies that can OHKO her such as the Mercenary and the Fighters spread out on the map. She is quite a liability to your teams defenses, as she is one of the only units that needs constant protection, well to be of use anyway. No. She is a big help to the team's defenses by, you know, keeping the team alive. Indeed she needs protection, but the payback it's totally worth it. As for the enemies being a threat only for Ellen; that's quite a lie. Earlygame is the hardest part of the game for something: your unit's stats are not clearly superior to the enemies, you are in the process of building supports and you get outnumbered. Ellen coming earlygame is great, because that's when she's needed the most. Garret would love to have such a good joining time, huh? Quote: And her healing doesn't even do that much anyway. She heals 11 HP that will rarely come into play on the map. If your units were actually risking death and needed help to finish the chapter faster and more effectively, then she would have said use, but they don't. Even if they did it's generally not in the area that Ellen is. Deak and his posse start over across the bottom opening where they will start killing enemies, whereas Ellen is behind Allen and Lance so she doesn't get raped by the soldiers. Once Allen and Lance move out and help Deak and his posse (more than Ellen could, because they are removing the problem instead of suppressing it.), eventually all the enemy units are dead and when Ellen gets there not much is needed to be done. Marcus weakens boss, somebody else kills it, Roy seizes, chapter over. What exactly did Ellen do? Heal a couple unnecessary wounds? Great, good shit Ellen. Her healing doesn't do much? The only other way of healing you have right now it's the use of vulneraries, which heal 10 HP, one less point than Ellen; and if a unit uses a vulnerary, said unit wasted a turn that could have been used to attack something. If you use Ellen, you can still have the other unit attack, so Ellen is easily the best way of healing right now (chapters 2 and 3). Then in chapter 4 Clarine joins, with 2 Mag, if Ellen got two level ups in the 2 previous chapters, she has that much magic, so they heal the same. However, Ellen has the superior MAG growth, so she will soon start healing moar than Clarine. So yeah, I honestly don't see where are you getting the idea of Ellen's healing coming rarely into play. Now, about all the things you mentioned about chapter 2, I find it highly illogical that Ellen doesn't get in time to where Dieck and company are. Let's see, you start killing the enemies near your starting position, and Dieck arrives and kills the enemies between the forts and him, after that he moves to the forts to start killing the next enemies. While that happened, your main group alredy killed the soldiers they started fighting in turn 1. Now there aren't enemies between your main group and Dieck's. You have Marcus/Alan/Lance rescue Ellen and move to help Dieck, dropping Ellen near so she can heal the wounded. Quote: Yeah, especially Ellen who takes away from your parties potential by her most commonly gazed upon ability; the ability to get OHKO'd. She sucked a chapter ago, and she probably hasn't leveled up, but what are her stats at right now? 16.45 HP, and .05 Def. Yeah, horrible bases and horrible growths, way to go. Sure she has a bit more use here than the last chapter but the party still does fine without her, and quite a bit of times that the party would rather she not be there. The cavaliers have 7 Mov, and a few of the have Javalins, not good for Ellen. They will be targeting her because she sucks so much defensively, and she'll be dying like a bitch, and just getting targeted makes the combat rating go down a bit. She's helping here and there, but she's also being quite the detriment, so I can hardly say that the time you have her and not Clarine/Saul can account for much. Ellen shouldn't be targeted, as she is not a combat unit. Furthermore, it is very easy to keep her alive in this chapter. The building's corridors are only two spaces wide, for the most part, so it is very easy to use 2 units as your frontline, and during your turn, have Ellen heal if needed then rescue and drop with someone else. Quote: Oh, so here is Ellen's REAL WORTH. She has a massive three turns before Clarine joins to really shine and prosper above everyone else. She is a GOD. Oh, wait, scratch one turn because she probably won't be healing on turn one. Oh, and the Nomads have ranged attacking and can 2HKO her, meaning she has to stay away from your frontlines where people actually need to be healed. Yeah, she's back down to massive suck again. 3 turns before Clarine gets out of the castle. Then you have to wait for the little bitch to go and talk with Roy so you can actually use her. And even when she joins, having 2 healers is rly useful. Not to mention you should be playing defensively for a little while, so Ellen is having easy access to your damaged units. Quote: And this is all before Clarine, when she is the only healer. She has this little use when she is the best healer? So what happens when she is second? And in two chapters what about when she's third? How much she is healing is severely cut down because others are doing it too, and because she has less durability and Mag, and in Clarine's case Mov, she's not the top option for healing anyways. So she's on the low end of a three way split in a job that is more times than not unnecessary. First of all, Ellen has less Mag than Saul for some time, but eventually, Ellen will surpass Saul in Mag due to her higher growth. Also consider that Saul is a mid tier unit, and therefore is not used always. Then Clarine only has Mov advantage, but lacks the Mag. Clarine is not so badly outclassed as far as healing goes. But what about Garret? He is an axe user, outclassed by other primary axe users such as Gonzales, Geese and Lot, and other lance using people like the Paladins and Heroes. Garret is looking more outclassed than Ellen. Quote: Could of fooled me. Garret's only lacking in Spd, but with his massive Crt he doesn't need to worry all that much. Lets put him against a Wyvern and see what happens... Speed is quite important for a unit like Garret. He doesn't Hit reliably against Sacaen enemies (as mentioned in my comparisons you didn't feel like reading) among others (like heros). And he doesn't get a lot of hit from supports. He would love to have enough speed to DA. Then his defenses are quite mediocre. He has high HP, but that is going down quickly due to his low Def/Res and high enemy Atk (I see you like to put him against waiverns). It's a shame Garret's avoid is bad. Quote: Ellen requires a promotion item and staffs to be a useful part of your party, while Garret does not require a promotion item and uses the cheapest weapons. This allows him to be much thriftier than your other units letting them use better weapons. Be it he or somebody else using those weapons, it is thanks to the fact that you used him instead of some crappy unpromoted unit. Well, either it's Garret is 10k more useful for funds( : D ), Garret makes your party much better combatively( : D ), or a mixture of both( : D ). I like that last one just because it shows Garret is better for both the combat and funds rank. Garret good for combat? points at Sacae route. Now, Garret is indeed helpful for funds, but that is a very lax rank. Let's talk about the experience rank. Garret comes prepromoted at a time where a good part of your army has yet to promote, so using him hurts your exp. rank a tad. Now Ellen, you mention that she has a late promotion (altough that would be chapter 16, when you can buy promo items) She'll be at a slightly lower level than the rest of the team, and she receives more experience from being a bishop, in the event you have her kill something. Plus, she has both staves and combat to take experience from. And within staves, there is stuff like Warp that gives tons of experience. Her help to the experience rank clearly outdoes Garret's benefits to the funds rank. Quote: Also on that note we can tell that Ellen has done nothing but sucking for the past while, and because sucking < not being there, Garret has been winning for the past while. In Combat, Funds, because he actually gains it, Experience, and because he can do something without being a detriment, Tactics. Except because Ellen isn't really sucking. Healing is extremely useful. Clearly more useful than a mediocre attacker, like Garret. About tactics, an extra healer means that your team is advancing faster due to combat units not having to wait to be healed in case the main healer already used it's turn. Then Ellen can use stuff like Sleep or Silence, to rape enemies with ease. She is helping tactics more. Then exp. You buy her guiding ring at chapter 16, and by that time, I wouldn't expect her to be level 20 yet, so she is gaining experience. And then after promotion she keeps helping the exp. rank like whoa. Quote: Sure he could go for some hit, but why wouldn't he want Crt? Never said he wouldn't want Crt. I said that what he needs most is Hit, and he isn't getting a sufficient amount. Quote: You see, it doesn't matter if Garret isn't doing good, it's if he is doing better, and he surely is. Ellen does not promote soon enough to be good combatively because Lugh, Clarine, and Rei all take president over her when promotion time comes. By the time she does promote her stats are rly suck and she's bad combatively anyway. Of course Ellen isn't better in combat, but, fortunately, Ellen's main use is not combat. She is busy being useful as a staff user while Garret is being busy getting killed, and then, when an enemy is weak, she can finish it off to help your exp. rank. Quote: Rank wise, Garret is beating her in Funds because he doesn't promote, tactics because the entire time he is there he can be of some use, and combat because he is killing whereas Ellen can only dodge blows for quite a while. The only rank that Ellen beats Garret in is experience, and it's not even by that much because she caps her level out so soon. meh...already talked enough about ranks. But yeah, Ellen rapes Garret in combat and tactics. Good enough to outclass Garret's advantage in funds Quote: What's she doing then? Healing backline units? If you play strategically, Ellen will never end in enemy range. You can have her heal and play in a formation that prevents enemies to get to attack her. Quote: You'd have to be pretty bad to make the team advance slower, so yay? Oh wait, she does make the team advance slower in situations that are heavy in mounter units and/or ranged units because she dies like a bitch. Oh yeah, she makes you advance slower because she is helping everyone to stay alive, huh? She makes you advance slow when Garret is targeted by an annoying status staff and you have to use restore on him, huh? Quote: kk goodnight Good night.
	^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan

Jeigan vs Dragon Hellfire · Debates