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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jul 25 2007, 04:45 PM |
 
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No. First of all, you left out flyer utility. Second, this debate depends entirely on the respective values of each unit's combat performance and utility. Taking "combat" on both sides and striking them out doesn't prove that your characters are better. Within combat, there are also different levels of proficiency and different roles, so it's far more complex than what your structural comparison there would evidence. That said, let's evaluate:
"Thief skillz" can easily be replicated with Chest/Door Keys. Colm's "utility" is basically "I let your other units not worry about holding keys." Prepromotion, this is basically worthless since units don't have many weapons they could be holding. Postpromotion, Rennac is around, so Colm certainly isn't the only unit that can pick locks (Assassin Joshua can do so, as well). Before you say that Rennac is garbage, recall that you don't need good stats at all to use Thief skills, so that's entirely irrelevant. And then in this game, your Supply is your Lord, who, unlike Merlinus, is always mobile (and counterattacks), so Colm’s aforementioned “utility” is worth even less. And then you can just bring a non-Thief filler unit, loaded down with Chest/Door Keys. A prepromote like Duessel or Seth works perfectly--more mobility, good durability (if you're worried about that), 0 training. Thieving is also more replaceable than combat--everyone can use a Door Key, not everyone can fight well. Finally, you forgot about flyer utility in your equation there. How does this stack up? Let's see. In Chapter 2, Vanessa is the only one who can reach Ross before he is killed. In Chapter 6, the NPCs on the East side can effectively be protected by Vanessa, who has no problems traversing the peaks. She can even carry Lute along to help handle the Baels. Tana isn't even around yet. In Chapter 9 on Eirika’s Route, there’s a Rapier, a Speedwing, a Dragonshield, and an Angelic Robe that only Vanessa/Tana (who is fragile/10 at this point) can reach before the Pirates destroy things. She can ferry Lute again and take lots of enemies down doing so (netting you an Ocean Seal, too). In Chapter 10 on Ephraim's Route, there's a Secret Book on a Fleet that requires a flyer to get. Tana, at this point, is OHKO'd by the Fleet, whereas Vanessa will be quite fine retrieving you that statup. In Ch. 17, Syrene will be easily killed by the Druids surrounding her (or she'll drain EXP from your team by killing them, if she somehow survives). Vanessa is one of the units who can recruit her, and seeing as Vanessa flies and has high mobility, she's obviously going to be doing this. Syrene comes with a Silver Lance. In this chapter, there are also rivers. Vanessa can easily go around and intercept incoming enemies if she wants. With a Javelin, she can easily destroy all the Druids (and their reinforcements later) on a turn, whereas Colm won't even reach them, let alone kill them (no range ftl). In Ch. 18, the Gorgon eggs hatch very quickly, and Gorgons are both more dangerous than Gorgon eggs and give less EXP, so your flyers are wondrous here. Again, Vanessa w/Javelin >>>>> In Ch. 20, there are lots of mountains/forests. Who better than Vanessa here? Now that we've got flyer utility covered, let's move on to actually comparing Vanessa and Colm as combat units, shall we?
Good thing that Brigands disappear around Chapter 4 and Soldiers continue to be commonplace, eh? Vs. Fighter (24 HP/3 Def): 6/0 Colm: 8.6x2 = 17.2 w/Iron Sword 5/0 Vanessa: 9.4x2 = 18.8 w/Iron Lance Vs. Soldier (25 HP/0 Def): 6/0 Colm: 9.6x2 = 19.2 w/Iron Sword 5/0 Vanessa: 13.4x2 = 26.8 w/Iron Lance Vs. Archer (22 HP/5 Def) 6/0 Colm: 5.6x2 = 11.2 w/Iron Sword, 5/0 Vanessa: 8.4x2 = 16.8 w/Iron Lance Vs. Merc (25 HP/6 Def) 6/0 Colm: 4.4x1 = 4.4 w/Iron Sword 5/0 Vanessa: 8.4x1 = 8.4 w/Iron Lance Vanessa using Iron here doesn’t matter since neither has reliable Avoid yet and she’s doubling either way. What I see is Vanessa winning against everything, even that Fighter.
Two things I see wrong with this picture. 1. Colm has B Neimi. 2. Colm has a level lead of 6. Let me address #1 first. Neimi’s a pretty awful unit. On “regular” (read: large) teams she starts out pretty badly. Not being able to counterattack on Enemy Phase is a pretty massive problem and then her beginning stats are pretty much horrible too (17 HP, 4 Str, 6 Spd, and 3 Def = zomg, she’s Ross-level phail, and Ross gains like 5x as much EXP, both due to trainee bonus and being able to counterattack on Enemy Phase), and they don’t get good for a long time. Then, on smaller teams, Neimi’s problem gets even worse. The point of a small team is to increase your units’ durability faster so that they can take more blows. However, Neimi can only attack on Player Phase, so while everyone else is gaining many more levels on a small team, she’s not. And she’s slowing down the turn count by being there at all on a smaller team since you can’t shield her and enemies will go for her before others. In the face of this, Colm is not going to be getting B Neimi, no matter how fast it is, and that effectively gives him -2 Atk. Which brings me to point #2. Experience is directly related to offense. You get some EXP for injuring and more EXP for killing. Now, Colm's offense is downright _bad_. He has a terrible Str stat and is locked into Swords. In the words of Yzarc Drowsnam, "I doubt he could one-round a cow." Vanessa, meanwhile, consistently has a Str lead on him, Lances, and an actual B (read: +2 Atk) support. The numbers above have already demonstrated how much better Vanessa is performing, and, as supports build, the situation only gets worse for Colm. Let’s take Ch. 8 as a demonstration of his offense. If Colm is 12/0 in this chapter (might be overshooting it by a level or two, but let’s see anyway), he has 15 Atk with an Iron Sword (B Moulder). He does 13x2 = 26 to a Soldier, not a 2HKO. He does 10x2 to a Mercenary, not a 2HKO. He does 10x2 to an Archer, not a 2HKO. He does 4x2 to a Knight, not a 2HKO. Meanwhile, 12/0 Vanessa has 19 Atk with an Iron Lance (B Lute/C Moulder). 18x2 to a Soldier, 2HKO. 15x2 to a Merc, 2HKO. 14x2 to an Archer, 2HKO. She doesn’t 2HKO Knights, like Colm, but guess who does? That’s right, Lute, the other member of our team. And Lute takes 0 damage from them, due to range. Meanwhile, the other member of _your_ team does…0 damage, because he’s a healer. And then, if Colm’s inferior offense doesn’t settle the reason why he won’t have a level lead of 6, then take the points listed above. Vanessa has mobility/range/flying vs. Colm. She’s getting more kills than he is for sure. For example, those Gorgon eggs in Ch. 18 each give 50 EXP a pop. She kills a mere 4 and she has two levels that Colm can’t claim (his Thief EXP Bonus doesn’t work for them, they’re 50 EXP raw, and he can’t even reach them as fast). She can equip a Javelin in Ch. 17 and kill Druids. Those same Druids show up 3 at a time as reinforcements, so Javelin Vanessa can finish them before they have any chance to do destruction. Or she can fly past the river and the peaks and deal with Wyvern Riders up north. With a Javelin she can handle Valks in this chapter, as well. This means that she has several entire wells of EXP all to herself, whereas Colm cannot claim this. And then, once Colm promotes, he’s no longer gaining an average of 1.5x everyone else’s EXP. He’s gaining 20 more EXP per base on a kill (no longer applies to injuring units, which will be the case a lot of the time with Colm’s mediocre offense). So, let’s compare them now, shall we? We’ll be generous to Colm and give him 2 levels for his Thief EXP Bonus despite Vanessa’s offensive advantage and flight/mobility/range. 20/7 Colm, A Moulder, Iron Sword Offense: 22.6 Atk, 23.7 AS, 14.8 Crit Defense: 38.0 HP, 73.2 Avoid, 14.0 Def, 10.8 Res 20/5 Vanessa, A Lute, B Moulder, Iron Lance Offense: 27 Atk, 24.3 AS, 9.75 Crit Defense: 31.5 HP, 90.3 Avoid, 17.6 Def, 17.9 Res For offense, 4-5 Atk and 1 AS > 5 Crit. For defense, 17.1 Avo, 3.6 Def, and 7.1 Res > 6.5 HP, and then Vanessa takes WTD only to Axes, which won’t hit her either way, and Colm takes WTD to Lances, which have a good chance of hitting him (yaye for Axes having low Hit). And then Vanessa has range. What was this about us not winning combat by a monstrous amount? Vanessa does 8-10 more damage than Colm per double, meaning the difference between a 2HKO and a 3HKO quite often. Then, Colm has Thief Skillz, but I’ve covered the worth of those, and Vanessa has flying to cover that, as well, so Vanessa > Colm, easily. Now, for Lute. Unlike Vanessa, Lute does not fly. However, on many of Vanessa’s flight trips, Lute will be coming along. Additionally, similar to Vanessa, one of Lute’s big advantages over Colm is 1-2 range. This makes her especially h4x for bosses. Early bosses don’t have range, so sending Lute in involves minimal risk. Then, later bosses that have range can be forced into equipping their usually weaker 1-2 range weapon by placing Lute near them, and Lute can actually handle the counter due to high durability (ex. Callaech in Ch. 15 can be forced to equip his Tomahawk this way--thanks to CATS for pointing this out). Then, for further ado about bosses, Lute has Excalibur. No other semi-decent unit is going to S Rank Anima as fast as Lute is, that’s a guarantee, so Excalibur is basically hers for the taking. Excalibur is quite handy against bosses (massive wells of EXP). And then Lute has better offense than Vanessa or Colm, and Staves postpromotion, too, so Lute’s level will be similar to Colm’s, if anything. 20/7 Lute (MK), A Vanessa, B Artur, Thunder Offense: 33.6 Atk, 17.2 AS, 12.3 Crit Defense: 31.3 HP, 80.6 Avoid, 13.7 Def, 22.0 Res 20/7 Colm, A Moulder, Iron Sword Offense: 22.6 Atk, 23.7 AS, 14.8 Crit Defense: 38.0 HP, 73.2 Avoid, 14.0 Def, 10.8 Res 11 Atk and attacking Res > 2.5 Crit and 5.5 AS (especially when Colm won’t put that AS to use with his crap offense). 12 Res, 7.4 Avoid, and not having to take counters on Player Phase and not getting WTD to a physical weapon type > 7 HP Then Lute has range, mobility, and Staves. Let’s move on to Moulder. Similar to the case against Colm, we’ll start with the value of healing. However, unlike Colm’s Thieving, Moulder’s prepromotion healing has no attacking supplement, so the issue is a bit different. Healing vs. attacking, one of the ultimate debaets. Units that are good at combat > units that heal. A healer is worthless on Enemy Phase. He’s just a body then, a liability. An attacker can utilize both phases. There’s also more attacking to be done in a given chapter than there is healing. Healing can be replicated with items (Vulnerary, Elixir); attacking cannot. Lute/Vanessa soon become two of the best combat units you have. Lute has 1-2 range and great offense, Vanessa has mobility/flight and gets h4x defenses very quickly (her offense isn’t crap like Colm’s, either). NPCs/villages are usually Vanessa’s for the taking, as well. They both have amazing supports and benefit their supporters hugely. The units that are better at around Ch. 8 or so are: Franz, Seth….damn, looks like there’s no one else! Wow, what a list! Being in the top 3-5 or so for combat >>>> being one of two healers. Most definitely. Use a Low Tier/Mid Tier instead of Lute/Vanessa, and the difference will be huge. Use Natasha instead of Moulder, and there’s no difference (durability doesn’t matter for healers since they won’t be getting attacked anyway). We’re also assuming that there are hypothetical Rankings for this tournament (aside from EXP, since EXP, as you have yourself said many a time, Reikken, has no intrinsic value). Lute/Vanessa are helping out Tactics, Survival, Funds (less expense than Staves ftw), and Combat. Moulder is helping Survival. 4 Ranks > 1, for sure. Meanwhile, Moulder needs to be protected, so he’s actually hurting the hypothetical Combat/Tactics (enemies living longer = phail, put simply). In the face of _all_ of these facts, if you were to still say Moulder > Lute/Vanessa, you would be making the claim of healing > attacking, which is total and complete bull. However, rather than let that stand by itself (which we very well could), let’s compare Moulder to LuteNessa as combat units as well. The HM EXP cut does not begin until Ch. 9. Usually, on HM, an unpromoted healer gains the same amount of levels as your party (depends on the game, I suppose, but approximately thereabouts). However, when there’s no HM EXP cut, an unpromoted healer gains _less_ EXP than the rest of your team. Then Vanessa/Lute have flight/range/mobility and boss killing, respectively, so they’re gaining even more EXP than the rest of your party. So, more likely than not, Moulder will be on a lower level than either of our duo. However, if that’s not enough for you, consider that on small teams, similar to the case with Neimi, each unit is taking more attacks on Enemy Phase—however, Moulder can’t magickz himself more Player Phases, can he? No. This means that Moulder, relative to the rest of the units on a small team (and relative to ours especially) will be at quite a level deficit. Then units with increased durability also get injured less on a smaller team, so the need for healing is lesser, too. On a small team, people are promoting around Ch. 12, whereas Moulder’s promotion is still during the same time as though he were on a large team. Moulder also has a hard time with Guiding Rings under these circumstances, as Lute/Artur will be promoting so much earlier. Clearly our duo is winning this. Moulder’s EXP boost won’t even out the difference here. So, no matter what, Moulder is at a level deficiency. Let’s compare, however: On Large Teams: 20/1 Bishop Moulder, A Colm, B Vanessa, Shine Offense: 23.8 Atk, 15.8 AS, 22.8 Crit Defense: 34.9 HP, 53 Avoid, 14.3 Def, 16.2 Res 20/4 MK Lute, A Vanessa, B Artur, Thunder, Offense: 32.1 Atk, 16.9 AS, 11.8 Crit Defense: 29.9 HP, 76.7 Avoid, 13.3 Def, 20.8 Res Offensively, 8.3 Atk and 1.1 AS >>> 11 Crit and Slayer. Lute also has Excalibur all to herself, w1n. Defensively, 23.7 Avoid and 4.6 Res > 5 HP and 1 Def. Then Lute has mobility (and her higher Mag gives her more range with Physic). 20/3 WK Vanessa, A Lute, B Moulder, Iron Lance Offense: 26.3 Atk, 23.1 AS, 9.7 Crit Defense: 30.5 HP, 86.8 Avoid, 16.2 Def, 17.3 Res Offensively, 2.5 Atk, 7.3 AS, and flight/mobility vs. 13.1 Crit, attacking Res, and Slayer. [Note that Vanessa upgrading to Steel will _still_ leave her with more AS/Avoid than Moulder, and then the Atk lead is greater (it’s already 5 per double, it’ll be 11 per double then, and Vanessa is doubling more)]The Crit’s not reliable at all(enemies in this game have actual Luck, omg), so that’s discarded. Defensively, 33.8 Avoid (h4x), 1.9 Def, and 1.1 Res > 4.4 HP, no contest. On Small Teams: 20/1 Bishop Moulder, A Colm, B Vanessa, Shine Offense: 23.8 Atk, 15.8 AS, 22.8 Crit Defense: 34.9 HP, 53 Avoid, 14.3 Def, 16.2 Res 20/9 MK Lute, A B4N3SS4, B Arturo, Thunda, Offense: 34.3 Atk, 19.1 AS, 12.6 Crit Defense: 32.2 HP, 83.3 Avoid, 14 Def, 22.8 Res 20/7 WK Vanessa, A Lute, B Moulda, Iron Lance Offense: 27.7 Atk, 25.5 AS, 10.8 Crit Defense: 32.5 HP, 93.8 Avoid (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), 17 Def, 18.5 Res omgh4x raep This doesn’t really even need commentary. If they were winning before, they’re winning even _more_ now. That’s common sense. So both our units > Moulda.
Oh, it does? That’s good for our team, then! Last, but not least, is team synergy. Our team complements each other nicely—early-midgame, Vanessa can handle Mercenaries (high-Spd enemies) and Lute can handle Knights (high-Def enemies). Together they take anything. Later on, extremely mobile physical with h4x durability + fairly mobile magical with h4x offense (and good durability) >>>>>>>. It’s quite a pairing. Vanessa tanks an enemy, Lute finishes it (if neither can finish it one turn, that is). Meanwhile, Thief + Priest is not as synergistic—Moulder’s Priesting doesn’t complement Colm’s Thieving prepromotion, and postpromotion the duo is not as dynamic as our duo (both lose mobility and neither has as h4x defense nor as h4x offense). So, let's summarize this: -Colm loses to Vanessa. His Thief Skillz are at _best_ cancelled out by her flying skills, and Vanessa thrashes him in combat. -Colm loses to Lute. Lute is far superior in combat and has Staves postpromotion. Colm's Thief Skillz aren't enough to remedy his loss in combat. -Moulder loses to Vanessa. Prepromotion, healer vs. attacker goes clearly in favor of Vanessa. Postpromotion, Vanessa wins combat. -Moulder loses to Lute. Prepromotion, healer vs. attacker goes even more clearly in favor of Lute than it did for Vanessa. Postpromotion, Lute wins combat. -Our team has more synergy. That's 5/5 wins. Vanessa/Lute > Colm/Moulder. |
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| Reikken and Dragon Hellfire vs Solid and Simon · Debates | |
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