Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Inui
+Ema Skye	Jul 30 2007, 04:49 PM
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,958 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Quote: Lalum would only get B Percival seeing how Echidna offers full defense, is faster (starts earlier + higher friendship base) and Echidna and Lalum have similar movement. Klein is a unit with mediocre stats and a bad class, so he's not being used a lot. However, if he and Cecilia are being deployed, Percival would take the extra Atk from Cecilia over the extra Hit from Klein. Not to mention the Cecilia support is faster. Percival gets B Lalum and A Klein. Lol @ Cecilia being with Percival. You see, Percival is an amazing unit with amazing statistics. He likes to be able to do whatever he wants. He frontlines and tanks. How is he supposed to do this with Cecilia near him? Even with Evd from supports, her Evd is lower than Marcus and Zealot's even. She has awful durability. Forcing Percival to drag her along hinders Percival and isn't worth 1 Atk. Interestingly enough, Percival's only poor parameter is Hit. He loves the Hit from Klein, especially in Sacae. He has high Str and axes and high weapon levels...he's not worried about getting 1 Atk or not. Hit, however, is much better for him than any other bonuses. And Klein, regardless of his terrible class, actually has very high Evd and good durability and actual offense. Cecilia doubles almost nothing while Klein has actual Spd. Quote: Later in your post, you mention Lilina is balls, so no need to counter that. Marcus gets outclassed and dropped from the team very early, so if I'm planning to use Cecilia, Roy's support with her would be in effect for more time than if he had supported Marcus, and Cecilia gives better bonuses. Lalum is already full because of Echidna and Percival, and Sue and Thany may not be used and the'r support with Roy grows at 1/+1 and they have Wind affinity. Eww... Lilina is still probably > Cecilia. If she's being fielded, she gets Roy's C easily, and then Gonzales wants her, so she'll have supports when Cecilia joins and actual offense from her massive Atk. And even the slow Lilina is faster than her after promotion. Who cares if it's 1/+1? This is only a C we're talking about. Thany can get that way before Cecilia even joins. Who cares if it's Wind? Both affinities give Roy what he needs; Atk. So either Roy gets 1 Atk and 2 Evd for a long time with a unit that can actually double things and not die in a second, or he gets 1 Atk and 5 Evd from a unit later on that sucks massively at both offense and defense... Yah, find some new supportz for her. Quote: Cecilia not helping the Exp. rank more than Garret? wtf? Cecilia would be like level 2 by the time Garret joins, so she's not gaining less exp than him. And Cecilia will reach a higher level by endgame because she can both heal and attack, and when healing, she's not taking experience away from other units, because usually there is more than 1 wounded unit. And then there are the staves like Physic, sleep, restore, etc. I don't know where you are getting this idea of Cecilia not being better for the experience rank. I'd think she would be level 3 when he joins, but okay. 14, 14x, half of 15... She's not getting to use those staves, though. The unpromoted healers get priority over her because they need the EXP. She doesn't. Saul and Clarine need to promote soon, so they get to use the yummy high EXP staves. Garret kills things and can actually live on the enemy phase, so he gains fine EXP. Quote: Also, since you were kind enough to mention Cecilia's joining situation, allow me to go into further detail: Cecilia. Level 1. 30 HP, 11 MAG, 30 Avo, 7 Def, 13 Res Clarine. Level 15/0. B Rutger, C Dieck. 20.6 HP, 6.2 Mag, 64.1 Avo, 5.4 Def, 12.6 Res- Saul. Level 15/0. 26 HP, 8 Mag, 32.5 Avo, 3.5 Def, 10 Res. Comparing Cecilia with the characters that could be your main healer. First thing to note is that Cecilia actually has offense. Then, we see that Cecilia heals for more HP than both of them, and Cecilia clearly beats Saul in durability. Against Clarine, durability is more debaetable. If Lugh is promoted, then he is healing for more HP than Cecilia, but Cecilia can afford some Mend staff uses since she didn't need a promo item, anyway. Overall, Cecilia's joining situation is looking very good. Cecilia's offense might as well not exist. She can't even damage fellow magic users without something like Elfire, and even then it's 1-3 damage. She has 10 Atk Spd. Didn't your units have that about ten chapters ago? She gets doubled by those Mercenaries and other things, even. Clarine is clearly stomping her into the ground in durability without even finishing her supports. By chapter 15, they'll be finished. And Saul has 0 supportz, uh ohz. Oh wait, Saul makes up for that here since he has his full 5 movement. So, Clarine has durability and makes other units better, and Saul has movement, so... Who's winning again? Quote: Granted, she won't double at all. But since usually you aren't one rounding enemies, anyway, any damage she can deal is helping. Garret is doing better in combat against certai stuff, like some wyverns at his joining chapter, but when he has to fight sword wielding enemies and nomads, chances are he won't even hit. You overrate how much he is helping the combat rank. While Cecilia may not be better than Garret combatwise, she's helping the team in other ways (staves, exp rank.) Never doubling is terrible. I'd be more inclined to use Marcus for the whole game than to field Cecilia since he has supports and durability and more Spd. Some? More like all of them. He has axes. They attack him, lolmiss, and then get raped on the counter. The ones that use steel lances also have terrible Atk Spd and can get doubled and almost definitely one-rounded. Swordreaver is rape. He doesn't need a promotional item, so he can afford a swordreaver or two. This makes sword users pretty helpless against him. However, poor Cecilia gets doubled by them and has no HP or Def to soak up the blows, as well as poor Evd... Staves? Clarine and Saul clearly rape her and get priority when it comes to using staves. If a unit is injured, who gets to heal them? Certainly one of those two before she does. And then once Lugh and Ray promote, she's out of the job entirely. Quote: Earlier in this post I mention how good Cecilia is when she joins, and there is always enough people damaged so having two healers is not by any means a bad idea. Furthermore, Lugh also has a combat role to fulfill, so he's not always healing. Niime? Pfff... that old thing is as fragile as toilet paper, and joins way later. She's awful when she joins. She has no mobility in her joining chapter and is doubled by Mercs/other things and has no offense due to poor Atk and not doubling. In the next chapter, she still sucks massively. She can't even double those Archers and Pirates. That's awful. Lugh can fulfill his combat role indeed. Clarine and Saul can heal. When Clarine and Saul promote, all four of your magic users can both heal and attack. Cecilia won't be needed at all. Niime can just heal with Physic from half of the map away. And when she has to attack, she actually has an Atk parameter worth something. Quote: Other units are better than Cecilia. So what? This is low tiers. If we were to apply this argument against Garret, well, we have Dieck, Lugh and a Cavalier promoted by the time he joins, beating him. If Lott is used, he would be promoted by now, would have some sexy support with Dieck and would be beating Garret as a primary axe user. Miledy would have gained some level ups and is starting to be h4x, and the all amazing Percival joins in chapter 15 as well. And guess what? These units actually don't suck massively due to having SPD. So yeah, this little argument of yours is hurting Garret more than it's hurting Cecilia. No. There's much more fighting to be done than healing, and Garret is only losing to anyone else because of just Spd. Cecilia not only has massive Spd problems, but she loses to everyone in everything but Res. There's tons and tons of enemies you need to fight, and some chapters are ridiculous, like 21. Cecilia fails at fighting. She can't even double the steel lance wyverns and gets doubled far too often given her poor Evd and defences. Quote: 20/8 is a good estimate level seeing how is always enough people to heal, she can attack every now and then and she is not outclassed as far as healing matters go. Note that Cecilia could have B Percival by now, giving her 1 Atk, 1 Def, 5 Hit, 10 Avo, 5 Crt and 10 Crt evade. Now, why in the world would you leave Cecilia, or any healer for that matter, open to enemy attacks? Unless you really screw with your formation, Cecilia should never get attacked. To help that, she has a horse, enabling her to do her healing job and then move to the back. I do believe that Percival is too busy deficating on both her on and the enemies to support her, as I've explained, and also wants hawt yaoi smex with Klein more than he wants anything from Cecilia. And those bonuses don't stop her from dying. Uh, the enemies in Sacae are either mounted bow users or flying lance users. They have tons of range. If she's out of range of the enemies, then she's not even on the field or usable. It's a point against Cecilia. Garret has tons of HP over her, as well as some Def. He gets to survive. Quote: If you actually factor B Percival, and Cecilia's option of using Fire she's winning in hit. Also, with B Percival, Cecilia has as much Defense as Garret, lulz. Anyway, going by that Nomad sample you posted, if it has a bow, it deals 20.8 damage per round to Garret. Only 2 of them were needed to kill Cecilia. 3 are needed to kill Garret. That isn't a huge improvement, rly. In fact, I would say Cecilia survives better, because Garret actually has to be at the frontline to do his job, so he is much more likely to get attacked by these guys. Also, you have to explain me how 58 Hit and 64 means "he almost surely kills it (the Nomad Trooper)" Against sword users, he can go ahead and equip a swordreaver, but he loses the 30 Crt bonus from the killer axe, and gets doubled, so his chance of OHKOing is also mediocre at best. That support won't be happening, soz... And so what if she has the same Def? Garret has ~25 more HP. Give her Fire and she does almost no damage and basically can be considered to have no offense. Well, in the chapter I pulled that from, there are lots of forests to camp in, and Garret can sit there with a hand axe and both actually counter and actually live. 20 more Evd and +1 Def gives him much more durability. Cecilia can do the same thing, actually, but it doesn't change that Garret is way more durable and has better chances of killing things. Lulz, worded that poorly. Better than Cecilia's 0% chance of killing them. 64.72 Real Hit and 64 Crit > not being able to kill even with both hitting and landing a critical. At any rate, that's a Trooper, the best enemy on the map. There aren't that many of them. The Nomads are about the same, 'cept they do less damage and are easier to kill. Cecilia still can't kill them, but Garret has better chances now. And I wouldn't doubt that Garret can live for another turn when it comes to normal Nomads. If he equips a swordreaver, he gets double WTA... That's enough for pretty terrible rape. Quote: Combat? He misses half of the time, and when he hits, you have to rely on a critical to actually kill in one round. Funds? Since you seem to like to use Killer axes and Swordreavers constantly, he might as well be losing here. Survival? Garret is also really frail, and is more likely to get attacked, and doesn't heal ppls. So it's easy win for Cecilia here. As for Tactics, the act of healing is what helps, by having more healers your units receive constant treatment and can proceed faster, instead of having to wait another turn for your main healer to heal them. He doesn't miss half the time. That would require him having 50 Hit all the time. Even against the most evasive enemy type in Sacae, the NT, he has 64.72 Real Hit. Other things will have less Evd, so he has more Hit. Oh, and let's go into Ilia, since it's easier and is basically free Combat points. The enemies here still have enough range to reach Cecilia if she's with your army, but they all have lances and sucky Spd due to being weighed down...so Garret utterly destroys them. He doubles the pegasus knights with steel lances and one-rounds them with just an iron axe, so he doesn't even need killers in that route. The enemies have tons of Res compared to other classes, so Cecilia's offense goes from terrible to not existing. He can afford to use killers and reavers sometimes and still be cheaper anyways. Costs Per Use Hand: 15 Devil: 45 Iron: 6 Steel: 12 Halberd: 45 Hammer: 40 Reaver: 140 Killer: 50 Brave: 75 Silver: 50 Tomahawk: 200 Fire: 14 Thunder: 20 Elfire: 40 Aircalibur: 55 Fimbulvetr: 260 Bolting: 600 Looks like Garret can swap between stuff like Iron and Killer freely and still cost loss than Cecilia unless she's only using Fire. However, Fire has such terrible Mt that her offense plummets into nothingness. She doesn't have high Mag or a Crit boost to make up for it. Hell, she doesn't even have the ability to double to give her some offense. Oh, and this is revealing something else here. Against Cavaliers and Paladins, Garret does massive damage with the Halberd, and is likely to just OHKO Cavaliers. Cecilia can land a Crit with Eflire and still do significantly less damage. Against all armoured units, Garret can certainly one-round them with a Hammer. Massive Atk + WTA + actually doubling them = they die. Cecilia can double them, too, but doesn't kill them anyways. If he can't double, lolBrave Axe. Then he doubles. This makes him kill magic users before they even hit him. Can Cecilia even fight magic users? Nope. Doesn't double them and deals like 2 damage. So, Garret can either be cheaper and be better at combat regardless, or use expensive stuff to rape her terribly at combat and actually kill things. If Garret is frail, wtf is Cecilia? Garret has ~25 HP over her and more Def. "Main healer?" What does this mean? You have Ellen, Saul, and Clarine early on. You can still be using them when Cecilia joins, and you're definitely using Clarine. Lugh can promote and use staves. So can Ray. Niime is a good staff user later on. In addition to those decent units and the two bad ones, you can also have Lilina and Yodel heal things... Cecilia isn't doing anything unique or special with her healing. Garret helps you progress by slaughtering things. He teabags everything in Ilia and teabags Wyverns.
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