Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Inui
Big Boss	Aug 1 2007, 10:55 PM
Posts: 650 Group: FEFFer Member #890 Joined: August 19, 2006	Quote: Percival gets B Lalum and A Klein. Lol @ Cecilia being with Percival. You see, Percival is an amazing unit with amazing statistics. He likes to be able to do whatever he wants. He frontlines and tanks. How is he supposed to do this with Cecilia near him? Even with Evd from supports, her Evd is lower than Marcus and Zealot's even. She has awful durability. Forcing Percival to drag her along hinders Percival and isn't worth 1 Atk. You only need to keep them at 3 spaces from each other. It is very possible to arrange your formation so Percival can frontline and receive Cecilia's bonuses, while keeping her protected. If you want to support him with Klein, Percival won't be able to use his full movement at certain situations. Quote: Interestingly enough, Percival's only poor parameter is Hit. He loves the Hit from Klein, especially in Sacae. He has high Str and axes and high weapon levels...he's not worried about getting 1 Atk or not. Hit, however, is much better for him than any other bonuses. And Klein, regardless of his terrible class, actually has very high Evd and good durability and actual offense. Cecilia doubles almost nothing while Klein has actual Spd. Okay, in Sacae, if Percival is level 10 and has C Lalum, B Cecilia, with an Iron Sword, he has 85.35 Hit against the Nomad Trooper, which is actually more thanks to how 2 RNs determine hit. Percival's hit is far from poor against the most evasive enemies in the game. Outside of Sacae, with his Lalum and Cecilia's supports and with complete control of the weapon triangle, he isn't having troubles hitting, so that extra attack point actually helps a bit more than Klein's extra hit bonus. Klein has durability, indeed, but his offense is rather poor. As a sniper, his main role is to kill waiverns, but seeing how chapter 21 Wyvern riders have around 14 AS, a level 12 Klein with his 17 AS isn't doubling them. Klein's speed never lets him double reliably, and due to his class, he's pretty much useless during the enemy phase. Klein is very likely to not be used. If Klein isn't used, Cecilia is taking A Percy for sure, if Klein is used, he can get some supports from Tate (full def ftw), Clarine and Dieck. Quote: Lilina is still probably > Cecilia. If she's being fielded, she gets Roy's C easily, and then Gonzales wants her, so she'll have supports when Cecilia joins and actual offense from her massive Atk. And even the slow Lilina is faster than her after promotion. This Debate is not about Lilina, and I'm not deploying moar low tiers units, thank you. Quote: Who cares if it's 1/+1? This is only a C we're talking about. Thany can get that way before Cecilia even joins. Who cares if it's Wind? Both affinities give Roy what he needs; Atk. So either Roy gets 1 Atk and 2 Evd for a long time with a unit that can actually double things and not die in a second, or he gets 1 Atk and 5 Evd from a unit later on that sucks massively at both offense and defense... Nah, Roy needs moar durability because he is stuck at 20/0 for a long time, and I don't want him to attack and hog experience. And by the time he gets C Cecilia, he will probably not be level 20 yet, so he can still use that attack point for a while. Quote: I'd think she would be level 3 when he joins, but okay. 14, 14x, half of 15... She's not getting to use those staves, though. The unpromoted healers get priority over her because they need the EXP. She doesn't. Saul and Clarine need to promote soon, so they get to use the yummy high EXP staves. Garret kills things and can actually live on the enemy phase, so he gains fine EXP. whatever, level 3. She's still getting more experience than Garret because of her class bonus and because she can get experience from both combat and staves. Other healers have priority over those staves, sure, but that doesn't mean Cecilia won't be using them every once in a while. On a side note, other units would also get priority over Garret to use h4x weapons like Killer axes and swordreavers. Quote: Cecilia's offense might as well not exist. She can't even damage fellow magic users without something like Elfire, and even then it's 1-3 damage. She has 10 Atk Spd. Didn't your units have that about ten chapters ago? She gets doubled by those Mercenaries and other things, even. Clarine is clearly stomping her into the ground in durability without even finishing her supports. By chapter 15, they'll be finished. And Saul has 0 supportz, uh ohz. Oh wait, Saul makes up for that here since he has his full 5 movement. So, Clarine has durability and makes other units better, and Saul has movement, so... Who's winning again? Her damage output is good enough to help a bit against physical units. I wouldn't say Clarine is stomping her in durability. Cecilia has 10 more HP, a bit of DEF and a bit of RES. Clarine has more avoid, but it's still not super reliable. Saul has movement, but in the desert, that would only serve to get away of your team and get killed. He's not using his full movement as he needs protection. So Cecilia wins because she heals for more and is more durable. Quote: Never doubling is terrible. I'd be more inclined to use Marcus for the whole game than to field Cecilia since he has supports and durability and more Spd. Some? More like all of them. He has axes. They attack him, lolmiss, and then get raped on the counter. The ones that use steel lances also have terrible Atk Spd and can get doubled and almost definitely one-rounded. Agreed. Never doubling is terrible. That's why Garret sucks so much. I'd use Marcus over him. He's a Jeigan. Garret joins with 11.2 Spd. In your own words: "Didn't your units have this 10 chapters ago?" The wyverns in chapter 15 will have around 35 hit on Garret. I'm not sure they would lolmiss all the time. And no, Garret doesn't double shit. Taking a look at chapter 15 samples from your debate against WJC: Mercenary: 17 AS Cavalier: 9 AS Sniper: 12 AS Wyvern Rider: 11 AS Archer: 9 AS Valkyrie: 18 AS Yeah, Garret isn't even doubling those slow wyverns. Quote: Swordreaver is rape. He doesn't need a promotional item, so he can afford a swordreaver or two. This makes sword users pretty helpless against him. However, poor Cecilia gets doubled by them and has no HP or Def to soak up the blows, as well as poor Evd... Staves? Clarine and Saul clearly rape her and get priority when it comes to using staves. If a unit is injured, who gets to heal them? Certainly one of those two before she does. And then once Lugh and Ray promote, she's out of the job entirely. You can use a swordreaver, but then Garret becomes more expensive than Cecilia, and those fast sword users still double him. I would rather give that Swordreaver to someone like Gonzales. Lugh and Ray's main use is fighting, so even if they are in play, Cecilia can heal. There is always enough healing to be done. Quote: She's awful when she joins. She has no mobility in her joining chapter and is doubled by Mercs/other things and has no offense due to poor Atk and not doubling. In the next chapter, she still sucks massively. She can't even double those Archers and Pirates. That's awful. Lugh can fulfill his combat role indeed. Clarine and Saul can heal. When Clarine and Saul promote, all four of your magic users can both heal and attack. Cecilia won't be needed at all. Niime can just heal with Physic from half of the map away. And when she has to attack, she actually has an Atk parameter worth something. Cecilia's mobility is average when compared to the rest of your team, except for Lugh, and Saul and Ray if they are in play. About the mercenary, Cecilia can go and attack that mercenary at long range and prevent getting damage. Obviously, Cecilia is not necessary. No unit is, except for Roy, because of seize. Cecilia can use a Physic staff, which is more than what Garret will ever be able to do, and while Cecilia's offense is far from impressive, she can help weakening stuff a bit so other strong units can kill. Quote: No. There's much more fighting to be done than healing, and Garret is only losing to anyone else because of just Spd. Cecilia not only has massive Spd problems, but she loses to everyone in everything but Res. There's tons and tons of enemies you need to fight, and some chapters are ridiculous, like 21. Cecilia fails at fighting. She can't even double the steel lance wyverns and gets doubled far too often given her poor Evd and defences. Precisely because there is a lot of fighting there is a lot of healing to be done. Both actions are essential to beat the game. Garret sucks because of his speed, which affects both offense and defense. He can never double, his avoid is terrible, and his defense is not good either (we see in our previous posts that Cecilia only has 1 less defense, and they tie when Cecilia is supported). Cecilia is not a good combat unit, but she was made to be a healer, and she can perform that duty with her decent Mag and good mobility. Well, guess what? Those ch. 21 Wyverns with steel lances have 16 Spd and 10 Con, so that's 13 AS. If Garret is level 12 he has 14 AS, he can't double them.. Level 15 Cecilia can't double, but she can use Aircalibur to inflict a good amount of damage so one of your better units can get more experience by delivering the finishing blow. Also, with supports (A Percival, B Roy) said level 15 Cecilia has 60.5 Avoid. An average wyvern rider with 90 Hit has 30 (18.3 real) hit on Cecilia. If Cecilia is in a forest (and there are a lot of them) she is pretty much untouchable. As always, Cecilia can heal, Garret can't. And there will be a lot of healing to be done here. Quote: I do believe that Percival is too busy deficating on both her on and the enemies to support her, as I've explained, and also wants hawt yaoi smex with Klein more than he wants anything from Cecilia. And those bonuses don't stop her from dying. Uh, the enemies in Sacae are either mounted bow users or flying lance users. They have tons of range. If she's out of range of the enemies, then she's not even on the field or usable. It's a point against Cecilia. Garret has tons of HP over her, as well as some Def. He gets to survive. Those bonuses certainly help her against the chapter 21 wyverns, as mentioned above. Klein would rather have hot incest with Clarine, btw. No, you should never let healers open to attacks. It's not that difficult to do that, you just have to be careful with your formation. Garret may have more HP, but he dies in only 3 attacks of the NTs Quote: That support won't be happening, soz... And so what if she has the same Def? Garret has ~25 more HP. Give her Fire and she does almost no damage and basically can be considered to have no offense. Well, in the chapter I pulled that from, there are lots of forests to camp in, and Garret can sit there with a hand axe and both actually counter and actually live. 20 more Evd and +1 Def gives him much more durability. Cecilia can do the same thing, actually, but it doesn't change that Garret is way more durable and has better chances of killing things. Well, Garret is more prone to receive enemy attacks, so he dies easily, even with his huge HP advantage. Also, Fire only has one less Mt than thunder, so her offense gets barely worse. Well, I'm looking at chapter 18 right now. There are some forests at your starting position, but you have to, you know, advance. Then there are also forests at the right side of the map. but that's one spot where enemy reinforcements are coming from, and that's not helping Garret. Furthermore, you have to move towards the center of the map, where the throne is. There are only those house thingies there, but they only offer 10 avoid, which is not saving Garret. If you give Garret a hand axe, he has 43% hit (which is actually less) against the enemy you posted. I tought you were bringing Garret to help the Combat rank? Quote: At any rate, that's a Trooper, the best enemy on the map. There aren't that many of them. The Nomads are about the same, 'cept they do less damage and are easier to kill. Cecilia still can't kill them, but Garret has better chances now. And I wouldn't doubt that Garret can live for another turn when it comes to normal Nomads. If he equips a swordreaver, he gets double WTA... That's enough for pretty terrible rape. The above statement (bolded) contradicts your previous testimony. Inui's 2nd post Here be a nomad trooper, and there be many of these in Chapter 18. Soez, Garret can survive another turn if he gets attacked by unpromoted enemies. That still doesn't help his case, as Cecilia isn't even getting attacked. Also, double WTA? I tought reavers only reverse the weapon triangle Quote: He doesn't miss half the time. That would require him having 50 Hit all the time. Even against the most evasive enemy type in Sacae, the NT, he has 64.72 Real Hit. Other things will have less Evd, so he has more Hit. Oh, and let's go into Ilia, since it's easier and is basically free Combat points. The enemies here still have enough range to reach Cecilia if she's with your army, but they all have lances and sucky Spd due to being weighed down...so Garret utterly destroys them. He doubles the pegasus knights with steel lances and one-rounds them with just an iron axe, so he doesn't even need killers in that route. The enemies have tons of Res compared to other classes, so Cecilia's offense goes from terrible to not existing. Well, if you go to Illia everyone else is still killing better than Garret, so it's not like he's being a big help. So, an average peg has 8 AS. We were using Cecilia at level 8, she only needs one more level to have an average of 12 AS and double it. And she has aircalibur and can afford it 'cuz she's a prepromo. And she can attack from a distance and don't receive damage. Quote: weapon costs Looks like Garret can swap between stuff like Iron and Killer freely and still cost loss than Cecilia unless she's only using Fire. However, Fire has such terrible Mt that her offense plummets into nothingness. She doesn't have high Mag or a Crit boost to make up for it. Hell, she doesn't even have the ability to double to give her some offense. Already pointed how you underrate fire. Cecilia is not the best candidate to use Bolting, and Fimbulvetr is only useable in trial maps, so screw those two. So yeah, the most expensive stuff Cecilia is using is Aircalibur (55G per use), as opposed to Garret's Swordreaver (140G) and then if we factor that Garret is seeing combat more often, we can assume he is moar expensive Quote: Oh, and this is revealing something else here. Against Cavaliers and Paladins, Garret does massive damage with the Halberd, and is likely to just OHKO Cavaliers. Cecilia can land a Crit with Eflire and still do significantly less damage. Against all armoured units, Garret can certainly one-round them with a Hammer. Massive Atk + WTA + actually doubling them = they die. Cecilia can double them, too, but doesn't kill them anyways. If he can't double, lolBrave Axe. Then he doubles. This makes him kill magic users before they even hit him. Can Cecilia even fight magic users? Nope. Doesn't double them and deals like 2 damage. So, Garret can either be cheaper and be better at combat regardless, or use expensive stuff to rape her terribly at combat and actually kill things. Garret doesn't have priority over the Halberd, Hammer and Brave Axe. I would rather have someone like Gonzales, Geese and Lot handle them. Quote: If Garret is frail, wtf is Cecilia? Garret has ~25 HP over her and more Def. Garret is more durable, yes, but he is also more prone to getting attacked, and thus, less durable in actual practice. Quote: "Main healer?" What does this mean? You have Ellen, Saul, and Clarine early on. You can still be using them when Cecilia joins, and you're definitely using Clarine. Lugh can promote and use staves. So can Ray. Niime is a good staff user later on. In addition to those decent units and the two bad ones, you can also have Lilina and Yodel heal things... Cecilia isn't doing anything unique or special with her healing. Garret helps you progress by slaughtering things. He teabags everything in Ilia and teabags Wyverns. lol, Lilina, Yodel, and Niime. As I said before, I don't want more low tier units in my team. Anywayz, you usually have Clarine and Lugh for sure, but due to the amount of Guiding rings you get, Saul and Ray are questionable units. Sure, you could go and buy some Guiding rings at the secret shop, but that money could be better used in buying weapons and stuff, so they may not be promoting at all. Even if Ray promotes, he is still busy with fighting (same for Lugh) so he can't dedicate all his life to healing. If Cecilia's is in the team, that means she helps Lugh and Ray to fight more as they don't need to spend that much time healing. That's certainly more special than anything Garret can do. He starts bad and ends bad at combat, which is the only thing he can attampt to do, and he is outclassed at it by dozens of characters To finish my post, I'll summarize why Cecilia is better than Garret: -Cecilia looks way better -Cecilia has more relevance to the plot -Cecilia's affinity is more benefical for supports, and Percival becomes wtfh4x when she's in play. -Cecilia is atually looking good when she joins. Garret already starts mediocre. -Garret is only good for combat at Illia. Cecilia can be useful at both routes because of staves and she's good at killling pegs at Illia. Garret doesn't kill reliably at Sacae and dies easily. Furthermore, Cecilia can actually be decent at chapter 21. -Cecilia can have more durability because of her horse. -Another healer is more useful than a mediocre fighter, as you have way more units that can replace him. -Cecilia has access to staves like Restore, Physic, etc. -Cecilia is better for your ranks. Healing helps you advance faster, she gets more level ups and receives exp. bonus because of her class, and helps the survability of the team. Overall, Cecilia is clearly the better choice in a ranked run. That's all. I can say I enjoyed this debaet. I hope you did as well.
	^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan

Jeigan vs Inui · Debates