Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Jeigan vs Inui
+Ema Skye	Aug 2 2007, 10:46 PM
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,966 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Quote: You only need to keep them at 3 spaces from each other. It is very possible to arrange your formation so Percival can frontline and receive Cecilia's bonuses, while keeping her protected. If you want to support him with Klein, Percival won't be able to use his full movement at certain situations. Percival's usefulness and godliness, in my opinion, comes from his ability to function well in any situation on any chapter without the need of supporters. Having Cecilia, a very frail unit with poor offense, follow him around hinders that. Lol, at least Klein can be with Percival and actually live and fight. Cecilia just dies and can't fight. Quote: Okay, in Sacae, if Percival is level 10 and has C Lalum, B Cecilia, with an Iron Sword, he has 85.35 Hit against the Nomad Trooper, which is actually more thanks to how 2 RNs determine hit. Percival's hit is far from poor against the most evasive enemies in the game. Outside of Sacae, with his Lalum and Cecilia's supports and with complete control of the weapon triangle, he isn't having troubles hitting, so that extra attack point actually helps a bit more than Klein's extra hit bonus. The 1 Atk isn't making him one-round anything. He either one-rounds with his high natural Atk, or doesn't one-round because the enemy is something gay with tons of durability and requires a Crit/special weaponry no matter who you are. The Hit, however, stops him from ever missing. And he has chances of missing that I don't like. Quote: Klein has durability, indeed, but his offense is rather poor. As a sniper, his main role is to kill waiverns, but seeing how chapter 21 Wyvern riders have around 14 AS, a level 12 Klein with his 17 AS isn't doubling them. Klein's speed never lets him double reliably, and due to his class, he's pretty much useless during the enemy phase. Klein is very likely to not be used. If Klein isn't used, Cecilia is taking A Percy for sure, if Klein is used, he can get some supports from Tate (full def ftw), Clarine and Dieck. I'd wager that Klein would have a higher level than that, and I've yet to encounter SPD issues with him when it comes to doubling those steel lance guys. He has issues against the Wyvern Lords, but that's all I've seen, even with his averages. If Klein's offense is poor, wtf is Cecilia's? She has way less Atk, Hit, and Atk Spd. Hell, she loses to Klein in every single parameter sans Res. Klein can get Tate if she's used, but she's not that good either. And Clarine is full from Dieck and Rutger almost 100% of the time. Quote: This Debate is not about Lilina, and I'm not deploying moar low tiers units, thank you. Kk, but Lilina > Cecilia, and I think Garret > Lilina, so Garret >> Cecilia. h4x l0g1c thar Quote: Nah, Roy needs moar durability because he is stuck at 20/0 for a long time, and I don't want him to attack and hog experience. And by the time he gets C Cecilia, he will probably not be level 20 yet, so he can still use that attack point for a while. 2 Evd forever >>> 5 Evd for the lategame Quote: whatever, level 3. She's still getting more experience than Garret because of her class bonus and because she can get experience from both combat and staves. Other healers have priority over those staves, sure, but that doesn't mean Cecilia won't be using them every once in a while. On a side note, other units would also get priority over Garret to use h4x weapons like Killer axes and swordreavers. Barely. Cecilia almost never gets to heal when you have other healers handling everything and they're all ahead of her in line. No, they don't. It's not like healing. There's tons and tons of fighting to be done, but only a little bit of healing. You can just give everyone those h4x weapons. And Garret, unlike most of your team, doesn't need a promotional item so he costs 10,000 less than almost everyone by default already. On top of that, he uses the cheapest weapon type. Quote: Her damage output is good enough to help a bit against physical units. I wouldn't say Clarine is stomping her in durability. Cecilia has 10 more HP, a bit of DEF and a bit of RES. Clarine has more avoid, but it's still not super reliable. Saul has movement, but in the desert, that would only serve to get away of your team and get killed. He's not using his full movement as he needs protection. So Cecilia wins because she heals for more and is more durable. No. Her damage output is nothing. She can't one-round a nomad even with an Elfire critical and her supports. And they're not high-Res or anything like that. In Ilia, she's doing even worse, since pegasus knights actually are high-Res units. Clarine isn't being hit. That's pretty reliable. The Wyverns in Cecilia's joining chapter have like 2 Real Hit against her, IIRC, and can't OHKO. Saul is more durable because he can run away. And he's way more durable if he has supports since his affinity is Ice and that gives bonuses in all defensive parameters. And it doesn't matter if Cecilia heals for ~3 more HP when Saul can actually move around and reach people and she can't. Quote: Agreed. Never doubling is terrible. That's why Garret sucks so much. I'd use Marcus over him. He's a Jeigan. Garret joins with 11.2 Spd. In your own words: "Didn't your units have this 10 chapters ago?" He has 1.2 more Atk Spd than Cecilia. Quote: The wyverns in chapter 15 will have around 35 hit on Garret. I'm not sure they would lolmiss all the time. And no, Garret doesn't double shit. Taking a look at chapter 15 samples from your debate against WJC: Mercenary: 17 AS Cavalier: 9 AS Sniper: 12 AS Wyvern Rider: 11 AS Archer: 9 AS Valkyrie: 18 AS Yeah, Garret isn't even doubling those slow wyverns. 24.5 Real Hit. Meant later on if he gains Spd. Even with the bad growth, his Spd is growing faster than the Wyvern's Spd. Quote: You can use a swordreaver, but then Garret becomes more expensive than Cecilia, and those fast sword users still double him. I would rather give that Swordreaver to someone like Gonzales. Only for that one combat phase. When Garret is just using Iron/Steel/Hand, he's being cheaper. He can actually alternate between cheap and decent and expensive and h4x, while Cecilia is always somewhat pricy and always shitty. Me too. Gonzales is beast. So give them both one. They are supporting, afterall. Quote: Lugh and Ray's main use is fighting, so even if they are in play, Cecilia can heal. There is always enough healing to be done. Cecilia gets to heal once in a while. Okay? Quote: Cecilia's mobility is average when compared to the rest of your team, except for Lugh, and Saul and Ray if they are in play. About the mercenary, Cecilia can go and attack that mercenary at long range and prevent getting damage. Obviously, Cecilia is not necessary. No unit is, except for Roy, because of seize. She needs three-four rounds of combat to kill it. That's massive suck right thar. And her chance of even hitting is beyond terrible. 7 SKL this late? Lol, and she's supposed to be a high ranking commander? She can barely hit Wyverns and Generals. Quote: Cecilia can use a Physic staff, which is more than what Garret will ever be able to do, and while Cecilia's offense is far from impressive, she can help weakening stuff a bit so other strong units can kill. She's not even weakening things... Cecilia using Fire = throwing a match at the enemy. Cecilia using Thunder = her poking them with static electricity from walking on a carpet. Cecilia using Elfire = throwing two matches at the enemy. Cecilia using Aircalibur = her horse sneezing on the enemy. Wow, such great offense there. Doing 5 damage to physical units sure is impressive when they have over 30 HP! Garret either does massive damage or kills them. Way better. Quote: Precisely because there is a lot of fighting there is a lot of healing to be done. Both actions are essential to beat the game. Garret sucks because of his speed, which affects both offense and defense. He can never double, his avoid is terrible, and his defense is not good either (we see in our previous posts that Cecilia only has 1 less defense, and they tie when Cecilia is supported). Cecilia is not a good combat unit, but she was made to be a healer, and she can perform that duty with her decent Mag and good mobility. He can double armoured units and some weighed down stuff. His Evd gets better after supports and he can get WTA vs lances, which are very common. His Def is fine. It starts out 3 higher than Cecilia's and he gets +1 from Gonzales and another +1 from Lilina or something. Cecilia's is only close because he hasn't gotten the +1 from B Gonzales yet in that chapter. Garret still has ~25 HP over her, which is massive. Her Mag isn't decent. It's terrible. It's just better than Clarine's, but we all know Clarine's strength isn't in her Mag stat; it's in her godly Evd, high Hit, and high Crit. Quote: Well, guess what? Those ch. 21 Wyverns with steel lances have 16 Spd and 10 Con, so that's 13 AS. If Garret is level 12 he has 14 AS, he can't double them.. Level 15 Cecilia can't double, but she can use Aircalibur to inflict a good amount of damage so one of your better units can get more experience by delivering the finishing blow. Also, with supports (A Percival, B Roy) said level 15 Cecilia has 60.5 Avoid. An average wyvern rider with 90 Hit has 30 (18.3 real) hit on Cecilia. If Cecilia is in a forest (and there are a lot of them) she is pretty much untouchable. As always, Cecilia can heal, Garret can't. And there will be a lot of healing to be done here. Or he could have had some luck with his Spd stat and is doubling them barely. Cecilia, even if she gets lucky, basically can't. She starts with 10. Garret starts with 11.2. Garret needs a good amount of luck. Cecilia needs enough luck to clean out a casino. Those supports are out of the question. Anima x Dark is disgustingly bad, Cecilia cramps Percival's style, and he has better partners. Even Douglas is better since he gives full Crit and doesn't die. B Roy? Wtf are you smoking? C Roy was already pushing it, but now Lance or Alan has to give him up? Garret can tag along with the team of Gonzales, Echidna, and Lalum and just assrape this chapter. He has WTA over all of the Wyverns and super massive Crit ftw. Quote: Those bonuses certainly help her against the chapter 21 wyverns, as mentioned above. Klein would rather have hot incest with Clarine, btw. No, you should never let healers open to attacks. It's not that difficult to do that, you just have to be careful with your formation. Garret may have more HP, but he dies in only 3 attacks of the NTs B Roy doesn't exist, so -10 Evd even with A Percival. Percival takes Klein, Lalum, and Douglas all before Cecilia. Better bonuses for him and those units are better than Cecilia. Douglas can equip an axe and eat the Wyverns, and give Percival full Crit and Evd. Hot incest...omg...but I want yaoi...so hard to decide... Quote: Asvel says (8:42 PM): yes Asvel says (8:42 PM): yaoiz Decided. Yaoi ftw. Okay, so her offense is 0 if she's never fighting. That's a loss in over half of the game to Garret since there's far more fighting to be done than healing. Unless, you want to tell me that healing is done ~200 times in Chapter 21 or something... Only if they all hit. And he's still way better off than Cecilia. Quote: Well, Garret is more prone to receive enemy attacks, so he dies easily, even with his huge HP advantage. Also, Fire only has one less Mt than thunder, so her offense gets barely worse. She also loses 5 Crit, and when she needs a Crit to do just normal damage, that's terrible for her. Garret is more prone to recieve enemy attacks? Yeah. That makes him more prone to gaining EXP and killing things to help Combat, too. Quote: Well, I'm looking at chapter 18 right now. There are some forests at your starting position, but you have to, you know, advance. Then there are also forests at the right side of the map. but that's one spot where enemy reinforcements are coming from, and that's not helping Garret. Furthermore, you have to move towards the center of the map, where the throne is. There are only those house thingies there, but they only offer 10 avoid, which is not saving Garret. If you give Garret a hand axe, he has 43% hit (which is actually less) against the enemy you posted. I tought you were bringing Garret to help the Combat rank? In Sacae, both of our units are trashy beyond words. In Ilia, Garret is wtfrape vs all of those pegs and falcos and doesn't get doubled or hit as much, while Cecilia is still just as much suck. So Garret clearly wins. Quote: Soez, Garret can survive another turn if he gets attacked by unpromoted enemies. That still doesn't help his case, as Cecilia isn't even getting attacked. Also, double WTA? I tought reavers only reverse the weapon triangle So, again, Cecilia's offense is 0. Awesome. And how is Cecilia never being attacked when it's wide open space with enemies that have wtfrange? I'm quite certain reavers double the WTA, which is why Garret doesn't care about being doubled. Quote: Well, if you go to Illia everyone else is still killing better than Garret, so it's not like he's being a big help. So, an average peg has 8 AS. We were using Cecilia at level 8, she only needs one more level to have an average of 12 AS and double it. And she has aircalibur and can afford it 'cuz she's a prepromo. And she can attack from a distance and don't receive damage. Garret is killing much worse than anyone else. In fact, he's not even worse than a lot of peoples. He has axes, massive Atk, and massive Crit. And Garret can bait them in and just dodge and slay them. Or attack them and OHKO with his massive Crit. Still better than Cecilia, who doesn't even kill them with Aircalibur most of the time. Quote: Already pointed how you underrate fire. Cecilia is not the best candidate to use Bolting, and Fimbulvetr is only useable in trial maps, so screw those two. So yeah, the most expensive stuff Cecilia is using is Aircalibur (55G per use), as opposed to Garret's Swordreaver (140G) and then if we factor that Garret is seeing combat more often, we can assume he is moar expensive Fire sucks massively. She does less damage and loses 5 Crit. Cecilia's Atk and Crit with Fire are so terrible that she does nothing. I've shown that she sucks massively even with the better weapons. Staves also cost moneyz. Quote: Garret doesn't have priority over the Halberd, Hammer and Brave Axe. I would rather have someone like Gonzales, Geese and Lot handle them. Who cares? Garret can still use them often enough to rape things, and he can actually use them unlike Cecilia and get massive advantages over the enemies. You can buy them all besides the Brave Axe, anyways. Quote: lol, Lilina, Yodel, and Niime. As I said before, I don't want more low tier units in my team. Anywayz, you usually have Clarine and Lugh for sure, but due to the amount of Guiding rings you get, Saul and Ray are questionable units. Sure, you could go and buy some Guiding rings at the secret shop, but that money could be better used in buying weapons and stuff, so they may not be promoting at all. Even if Ray promotes, he is still busy with fighting (same for Lugh) so he can't dedicate all his life to healing. If Cecilia's is in the team, that means she helps Lugh and Ray to fight more as they don't need to spend that much time healing. That's certainly more special than anything Garret can do. He starts bad and ends bad at combat, which is the only thing he can attampt to do, and he is outclassed at it by dozens of characters Lol, Li1337a, Yode1337, and Niime the Beast, indeed. Even if you don't want more on your team, they are better than Cecilia at healing and two of the three rape her in offense. You can buy promotional items with the Silver Card, so I don't care much about promoting by buying other promotional items. I don't really care much if he's outclassed by other characters. Garret sucks. Cecilia also sucks. The point is that Garret is better than Cecilia at both living and fighting. The only thing Cecilia wins is healing. Okay, Cecilia can't even fight or survive. Quote: -Cecilia looks way better -Cecilia has more relevance to the plot -Cecilia's affinity is more benefical for supports, and Percival becomes wtfh4x when she's in play. -Cecilia is atually looking good when she joins. Garret already starts mediocre. -Garret is only good for combat at Illia. Cecilia can be useful at both routes because of staves and she's good at killling pegs at Illia. Garret doesn't kill reliably at Sacae and dies easily. Furthermore, Cecilia can actually be decent at chapter 21. -Cecilia can have more durability because of her horse. -Another healer is more useful than a mediocre fighter, as you have way more units that can replace him. -Cecilia has access to staves like Restore, Physic, etc. -Cecilia is better for your ranks. Healing helps you advance faster, she gets more level ups and receives exp. bonus because of her class, and helps the survability of the team. Overall, Cecilia is clearly the better choice in a ranked run. - -Cecilia's affinity actually sucks for Percival since her bonuses are inferior. Percival doesn't need 1 Atk. He needs Hit and he needs Crit to one-round the tanky shit, and Douglas gives him more Crit and actually can live, Lalum gives him full Crit, and Klein gives him more Hit which he does indeed need if he wants to use axes and lances, the better weapons. Garret's affinity gives him Crit and Hit, which he also needs. Garret with even more Crit? H4x. -Wtf? No. Cecilia has 30 HP, 11 MAG, 7 SKL, 10 SPD, 10 LUK, 7 DEF, and 13 RES when she joins in Chapter 14. Garret joins with more in everything but RES only a chapter and a gaiden afterwards. Wtf are you talking about? Cecilia is way worse than everyone when she joins, while Garret's HM boosts at least give him massive HP and STR, and he comes with massive Crit. -Cecilia sucks balls in both routes, wtf. She can't kill the pegs even with Aircalibur most of the time due to not even doubling and her Atk being that terrible. Enemies in Sacae have so much range that she can't avoid them. She dies way faster than Garret in both routes, but Garret at least rapes in Ilia. Chapter 21? Decent? Maybe if she doubled. But she doesn't. Garret has axes and omgwtfCrit. He has ~80 Crit with a Killer Axe and supports. 30 + 30 + 15 + ~10 from SKL = 85 wtf. And that's with only three supports, lulz. Give him more and his Crit gets even higher. He can get 95 Crit with full supports. With his Atk, nothing will survive. -Okay? She can run away... -She heals, but she also has tons of replacements: Clarine, Saul, Ellen, Niime, Yodel, Saul, Ray, Lugh, Sophia, and Lilina can all use staves. -Garret has access to axes that give him wtfoffense like the Hammer, Halberd, Brave Axe, Killer Axe, etc. -Garret actually can kill and survive. When your objective is to kill the enemies and not die yourself, that's pretty good to do. Cecilia sucks at both. She can heal people and move around, but she's a massive inconvienence due to her fraility and inability to fight. Garret >>> her. Garret is also the first true in FE, while Clarine is totally :feez:.
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Jeigan vs Inui · Debates