Viewing Single Post From: CATS vs Reikken

Viewing Single Post From: CATS vs Reikken
C475_1337	Aug 29 2007, 03:56 PM
One serious d00d Posts: 1,863 Group: FEFFer Member #902 Joined: August 26, 2006	Quote: No, he's getting doubled by several enemies, like even the cavaliers in ch 4, and obviously by Mercs and Nomads, and having the lowest def of any of the physical attackers doesn't help. And he gets about 55 hit on enemies. No one else sucks that much. That’s right, go off on a side tangent like this, and ignore the actual point being made. The main point, restated in a more concise form so that you have no more opportunities to try and divert it, is this: I daresay the gap between using Ward and using Dieck or someone early on is less than the gap between Ward and Sophia when the little girl joins. Quote: Also, one Sophia promotes, she can actually be useful with healing and junk. After she promotes. That is not happening without considerable babysitting; Sophia can kill nothing at all on her own when she first joins, and gets killed by everything. Her joining situation is by far the worst in the entire game, I believe. She has to be blocked off alot so that she doesn’t get raped, and has to have others severely weaken things for her (frequently going out of their way to do so) in order to ever kill anything. And even when she has a shot at finishing something, her hit is terrible; at base level, 75 Hit with Flux—50 Hit against an enemy with 10 AS and 5 Luck (not unreasonable at all for an FE6 HM enemy). So take the amount of times you have to weaken things for her already, and multiply by two, to account for all the times she misses. Wow. Even more suck. No, suck is still a huge understatement, I don't even know how to properly express how massive this is......worst combat ability possible, pretty much. So the positive of staff utility upon promotion would be matched, and indeed overcome by the negative of the insane of amount of babying which she needs in order to reach that point in the first place. Actually, scratch that, her incredibly crappy durability even after promotion counters it already (promoted Sophia gives you another healer to help keep others alive, but she is herself a very frail unit that dies when sneezed on), and then the babying needed to gain staves at all would just be a massive amount of phail stacked on top of that. “but ward liability too” Not to nearly the same extent as Sophia. A 20/10 Ward with Lott and Dieck support faces only ~7% real Hit from Ch. 21’s Steel Lance Dragon Knights, and takes 5 hits from them in order to die. A 20/10 Sophia (extremely lenient to her) faces ~43% real hit and dies in only two hits. That’s an overwhelming durability advantage for Ward even when Sophia was assumed to be on the same level, which is almost certainly not going to happen. The simple fact that Ward should be a few levels away from promotion when Sophia joins at 1/0 is evidence enough that they should never be on the same level. In fact, we’ll take it even farther than that, and remove Ward’s supports; now he’s 4HKO’d at about the same hit as Sophia. So even with absurd favoritism shown towards Sophia (assuming she’s on the same level as Ward, taking off Ward’s supports), Ward still lives twice as long in the given example? Indeed. If the situation is bad for Sophia when everything is played in her favor to the greatest extent that is even remotely reasonable, then imagine what it’s like when the situation is viewed realistically. In case your imagination is weak, I’ll just let you know: It’s not a pretty sight. Oh wait, we didn’t factor in Ward’s WTA over Wyverns in this situation, did we? And just when I thought things couldn’t get any uglier for Sophia. Anyway. As for Sophia’s help to the Exp Rank which you tote? First, remember that terrible base Hit I mentioned earlier? Getting high Exp gains half the time doesn't look so good when you get only 1 Exp the other half of the time. Second, I’ll bring up, in response, the fact that Ward actually has supports, and is actually the best option for Dieck and Lott: Dieck x Ward B: +1 Atk/+1 Def/+10 Avo/+5 Hit/+10 Crit/+5 CEV Dieck x Rutger B: +0 Atk/+1 Def/+10 Avo/+5 Hit/+10 Crit/+10 CEV Dieck x Clarine B: +0 Atk/+2 Def/+10 Avo/+0 Hit/+10 Crit/+10 CEV The bonuses from Clarine are about even with those from Ward at the very best, and Ward’s bonuses are clearly better than Rutger’s(yes, 1 Atk > 5 CEV). And then the Ward Support is significantly faster; builds at a rate of +2 vs Rutger/Clarine’s +1, and Ward Support also has a higher base than Rutger. Plus Ward joins 2 chapters earlier than either Rutger or Clarine. If I was Dieck I’d sure want to support Ward. Equal or better bonuses at a faster rate ftw. Adding stats to other units = obvious win. “but sophia support fa and igrene” 1. Both weak units (Fa has a terrible start and is limited to only 30 attacks; Igrene has the worst class, middling stats at best, and an LOL support list; hell, Fa is allowed in a low tiers tournament, that should say something right there). If you’re already using the epitomy of fail that is Sophia, you probably don’t want to stack even more fail on top of that by using even more crappy units. 2. Even if the supports happen, which they usually won’t (and never will they both happen together), they start much later than Ward’s, and thus won’t finish until much later. Ward would be giving bonuses for a much longer length of time. Giving bonuses for almost the entire game >>> giving bonuses for only the near-endgame. Sophia’s other supports are all 1/+1, and she joins when the game is over half done, so those aren’t happening ever. Again, Ward has supports that are helping quite a bit more than anything Sophia has to offer in that department. So Sophia has Staves, but crappy durability after promotion compared to Ward. Sophia can help the exp rank a bit, and Ward transfers support bonuses over to make his partners that much better. Objectively, it is impossible to prove beyond doubt that one or the other of these is better; they are not things which can be measured in concrete numbers, so far as I know (though I’d be much inclined to favor Ward on the first point, at least, considering just how bad Sophia’s durability is). Therefore, from a logical and unbiased standpoint, a winner cannot be declared from these facts alone. If Sophia and Ward joined at the same time, the debaet would probably stall here. But wait, there’s more. Sophia has the worst joining situation in the entire game (yes, much worse than Ward’s). Insane phail upon joining, much more than Ward's when he comes in. She needs excessive amounts babying in order to get anywhere at all. This is a clear and obvious (and also huge) disadvantage, and she’s out of positives she can use to try and make up for it. From a logical and unbiased standpoint, we can declare Ward the winner based on this tiebreaker. Argue the semantics or something if you want, the facts themselves cannot be changed. Quote: The point is that if you use Ward, all you get is suck. If you use Sophia, you still get suck, but you also get help to the exp rank. And a free Guiding Ring. And staves after promotion. Correction: If you use Ward, you get suck. If you use Sophia, you get some exp rank padding, and staves after promotion, and massive-uber-insane-suck, and much worse supports. The difference between Sophia's overall combat abilities and Ward's is far too great to be simply ignored. “free guiding ring” First, I’m confused as to how you figure this, and would like an explanation. She doesn't join with one. If you get one for recruiting her or something, or deploying her in one chapter, that doesn't require her to be used. Second, it's entirely insignificant regardless. This game’s Funds Rank is even more lenient than FE7’s, which is already cake to S Rank. Another 10K in assets means almost nothing at all towards that. Even if it mattered, which it doesn't, Ward can counter by the fact that Axes are considerably cheaper than Dark and Staves. ... 'k, I looked on Serenes. Apparently only Sophia can pick up a Guiding Ring in the desert. Well, like I said already, she doesn't have to be trained or anything, except fielded for one chapter, to get that. IIRC pplz don't get points for items they join with, which is the same situation (for example, Louise joins w/ White Gem and must be fielded for one chapter). Similar to the way that Dart must be fielded in one chapter to get Geitz, but you never hear him being boosted on the tier lists because of it. Quote: When Sophia joins, Ward has been hurting the team much longer, and therefore, much more. Key words in this statement: When Sophia joins. Sadly, the game does not end when Sophia joins. Starting from her joining point, she fails many times harder than Ward; Ward gets a big head start in the race, but Sophia’s fail stat is so much higher that she quickly catches up to him, and by the end of the game has left him in the dust. “10 x -6 <<<<<< 0 x insert whatever negative number you want here” indeed. However, 25 x -6 >>>>>> 15 x -30. Looking at the game as a whole is more accurate than looking only at the part of it before Sophia joins.
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CATS vs Reikken · Debates