Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs NeoElfBoy

Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs NeoElfBoy
Reikken	Sep 7 2007, 04:25 PM
Posts: 1,838 Group: FEFFer Member #907 Joined: August 26, 2006	Dark Holy Elf Sep 4 2007, 12:26 AM Two objections here: -Florina is certainly not #5 on Hector's list. She is below Eliwood and Oswin, yes. But who else? Serra and Farina are incredibly slow, so they're out. Matthew is reasonably fast but Thunder/Wind sucks (full crit bonuses, fear them) and Matthew himself likes to be off looting chests and won't be promoting, nor used in maps when thief utility isn't required most likely. Lyn is again Thunder/Wind, and supporting her with Hector doesn't make much sense. Since we're assuming Florina is in play, Lyn is obviously going to support Florina first, and she'll find lots of other partners before Hector (Eliwood, Kent, Rath) so you can pair her up with one of them while Hector gets Florina. That's still #3, which means she's relying on the non-play of Eliwood and Oswin, or for one of them to find two other supporters instead, but these conditions do happen, so the support is worth noting. Surewhatever on Lyn. She shouldn't be used anyway. However, for Matthew, ha. Not only is this support quite a bit faster, but it also starts building from the very first chapter. It'll be well on its way to B by the time Florina joins. Hector-Florina won't reach B until what, 9 chapters after Hector-Matthew? Hector-Matthew >> Hector-Florina. Thunder-Wind sucks? This is Hector we're talking about. Did you forget? This support gives him as much offense as he can get from a support, and more offense is the only thing this defensive beast needs. #4 is still not worth much of anything. Quote: -As for Lyn... if she's unuseable due to the expensive late promotion, then so is Eliwood and Florina's probably getting a support with Hector. If, more reasonably, she's perfectly useable, then there's no real problem. Yeah, her durability is subpar, but it's pretty much dead even with Rebecca's, so it's quite manageable. And her overall stats are just clearly some of the highest. I'd certainly default to assuming her as one of Florina's supports since it's so amazingly fast. Eh? Selective reading? "Lyn has poor durability and is melee--not a good mix" Eliwood does not have poor durability. It's more the opposite. Rebecca is not melee. Lyn is. Lyn takes counters when she attacks, making her already poor durability even worse for enemy phase, and she has to be up closer to the enemy to attack, which makes her poor durability with now-reduced hp even more of a problem. Lyn's durability is not at all comparable to Rebecca's. That's a joke. Lyn's durability is probably the worst in the game. At least Lucius is ranged. Quote: Quote: Rebecca has three good supports, and the one with Lowen is especially helpful to him; and Fiora has two decent supports, though the one with Ninian isn't very helpful to her. Should that Fiora be Florina? Anyway, Florina is obviously Fiora's top choice for a support (fastest + matches mobility). Yes, "Fiora" --> "Florina" Quote: Florina is also Lyn's top choice (2/22/42 = win). and Rebecca is the top choice for Dart, Wil, and Nino. If these units were good, it would matter, but they're not. Quote: Quote: The first 2 chapters after Florina joins are bad for her. Chapter 16 has ballistae and a few bows, and ch 17 is even worse as it's packed with Archers and even has a few Nomads. On the other hand, absolutely everything is bad for Rebecca when she first joins. 17 HP / 3 Def makes her the frailest combat unit in Eliwood/Hector mode at starting stats. That's similar to what folks like Lyn and Erk and Lucius have in Lyn Mode, except that not only do they fight weaker enemies, they all at least have offence. 4 Str / 6 Spd is trash. So Rebecca has really sucky offence and really sucky defence when she joins, and it's only starting to become manageable by the time Florina joins. Being sucky <<< not being there at all. No, not at all. Being an archer does have positives, you know. While her stats aren't too good, her atk is indeed good vs all those Pegs. Now, while her offense isn't strong otherwise, it's still useful offense, which is what matters. She can attack over others and without getting in the way so that you can get more attacks in, which is especially helpful in those small crowded early chapters, especially since no one is one-rounding much of anything. Her defense is rarely even an issue at all since she doesn't often get attacked. She is indeed useful earlygame. If she used swords instead, then yes, she would fail, but she doesn't. Deleting Rebecca from the earlygame team would make you worse off rather than better. Being there and being useful > not being there. Quote: Quote: Offensively, they're more or less the same, except Rebecca raeps the Pegs. Rebecca is great against Pegs, but Florina's going to be one-rounding them too - Pegs are frail. Only ones she might have trouble with is the ones with Slim Lances. Slim lance ones indeed, and also others as well, at least at first. For example, many of the ones in ch 16 require 16 atk to one-round (21-22 hp, 5 def), and Florina doesn't have that yet. Quote: Sure, Rebecca can't be countered, but she also can't counter them, whereas Florina can. At least Florina can dodge counters herself, with a Javelin (which incidentally, doubles the ones with Steel Lances). In general, Florina is just much more useful offensively because of her multiple types of range available. Or she would be if she didn't lose 7 AS and also have less atk. She manages to double Steel Lance Pegs and their ~1 AS, but she's not doubling much else. Quote: Rebecca is notably more durable against bows. Florina is notably more durable against swords and magic. Pretty sure that's advantage Florina, though if you want to count up all the enemies and prove me wrong, be my guest - it's close anyway. Magic, sure, but swords is a no unless Florina wants to be badly losing offense in exchange, and she's notably less durable against axes either way. Quote: Quote: Laterz, They're about the same offensively except Florina's con sucks, so she can't use anything but Iron Swords without AS loss. Of course, if Florina has Lyn instead of Ninian, then she can get faster than Rebecca and still keep the Atk gap close with an Iron Sword. And as you said, even this advantage lasts only until Florina can use the Killing Edge. 25 attacks (15 with Iron Sword, 10 with Iron Blade)? Those will be done in hardly any time at all. no @ Lyn; see above. That would make her durability suck even moar anyway. Those weapons will only work for the sucky enemies, and the Iron Blade eats her avoid, so it's going to take longer than that. Alsou, even once she does get this, it doesn't help the situation with silver at all, and her crit goes down when she uses it. And Rebecca has flyer-effective. Florina's effective weapons both are very heavy and suck. Like Silver except heavier. Quote: And regardless, Florina now has the weapon triangle on her side. Against swordsmen and axemen she has +1 Attack/Def and +15 Hit/Avoid. This brings her avoid up to Rebecca's level for avoid against these people. She's obviously better against mages due to better Res (and Crit Avoid for Luna). So Rebecca's only even managing to hold her own against lancemen and archers - against everything else, Florina has the clear upper hand. Her avoid only goes up to there if she's using an Iron Sword or Slim Lance, so she phails offense, and it doesn't work on both at the same time. Lances even make her lose by 30 avoid against any nearby axes. And swords make lose by 30 avoid against any nearby lances. Assuming she has no AS loss. -2/6 avoid for killer, and -10 for silver. Her overall loss in avo vs these is probably somewhere in the low double digits, like 12, which is quite alot. Slightly higher loss vs swords and lower vs axes since the weapons to get WTA on swords are heavier. Her loss vs lances is rly big. She loses 6 avo from just an Iron Lance, so I'd peg her overall loss at about 22. vs bows, she not only loses avo by liek 20, but she also takes alot moar damage. And none of this is including terrain. Florina's avo isn't good. And then after CoD, Florina gets -2 def/res and -5 avo, as well as -1 atk and -5 crit. For magic, sure, but it's close. Avoid vs res. And Rebecca easily wins vs Luna. Florina may not take crits, but she still gets hit, and her res can't help her. Rebecca doesn't even get hit: Longbow/terrain. Quote: Florina still has far superior targetting options (range 1 + range 1-2 >>> range 2) You only included one for Rebecca but all of them for Florina? wtfm8? Rebecca has 2-3 and 3-10 as well. That's certainly better than Florina's considering how many other player units have these ranges, especially out of ones that don't suck. Quote: still has two extra move, still flies, still has mounted rescuing, etc. "etc."? What's the rest? Anyway, this is cool and all in that it's better than not having it, but using terrain > that Quote: Throughout, Florina has superior concrete durability, too. No, getting attacked vs not getting attacked is pretty concrete. As is the extra damage from bows. Anyway, the whole thing is what matters, not just concrete, and Florina gets pwned in avoid. Her concrete durability is suck except vs magic, so avoid is the main thing. Quote: It's just a pretty clear win, even before considering the massive utility advantages Florina's flight provides. Yeah, a clear win for Rebecca. What utility advantages? Are you going to try to lolastpost me with it or something? Also, "even before considering"? You also already mentioned this in the line right before this.
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Reikken vs NeoElfBoy · Debates