Viewing Single Post From: CATS vs Reikken

Viewing Single Post From: CATS vs Reikken
Reikken	Sep 12 2007, 02:03 PM
Posts: 1,838 Group: FEFFer Member #907 Joined: August 26, 2006	Quote: Second, I’ll bring up, in response, the fact that Ward actually has supports, and is actually the best option for Dieck and Lott: Dieck x Ward B: +1 Atk/+1 Def/+10 Avo/+5 Hit/+10 Crit/+5 CEV Dieck x Rutger B: +0 Atk/+1 Def/+10 Avo/+5 Hit/+10 Crit/+10 CEV Dieck x Clarine B: +0 Atk/+2 Def/+10 Avo/+0 Hit/+10 Crit/+10 CEV The bonuses from Clarine are about even with those from Ward at the very best, and Ward’s bonuses are clearly better than Rutger’s(yes, 1 Atk > 5 CEV). And then the Ward Support is significantly faster; builds at a rate of +2 vs Rutger/Clarine’s +1, and Ward Support also has a higher base than Rutger. Plus Ward joins 2 chapters earlier than either Rutger or Clarine. If I was Dieck I’d sure want to support Ward. Equal or better bonuses at a faster rate ftw. Sure. Quote: “but sophia support fa and igrene” 1. Both weak units (Fa has a terrible start and is limited to only 30 attacks; Igrene has the worst class, middling stats at best, and an LOL support list; hell, Fa is allowed in a low tiers tournament, that should say something right there). If you’re already using the epitomy of fail that is Sophia, you probably don’t want to stack even more fail on top of that by using even more crappy units. 2. Even if the supports happen, which they usually won’t (and never will they both happen together), they start much later than Ward’s, and thus won’t finish until much later. Ward would be giving bonuses for a much longer length of time. Giving bonuses for almost the entire game >>> giving bonuses for only the near-endgame. Fa being allowed in low tiers really doesn't say anything. Echidna was allowed in low tiers as well. Fa doesn't start out good, no, but that lasts for an extremely short time. Igrene's problem is a lack of supports--normally she's like a Klein with no supports--but all three support each other, so now that problem is gone, so she's as good as Klein except that she's better for the exp rank since she isn't as overleveled. Now that she can get supports, she's better than Lot (she beats him in offense by quite alot: a bit more spd and way more hit (and more crit since you have to hit before you can crit), and she even effectively wins atk since Lot's hit with Silver is low enough that his chance of landing both hits is lower than Igrene's chance of getting a crit with Killer. And she has effective vs fliers. Lot can use bows as well, but his weapon level sucks. Silver >>>> Iron, especially when the mt difference is getting tripled. For defense it's alot closer. They get to similar avo, and then Lot has more def and hp, and Igrene has more res and takes fewer counters.), so there's certainly no problem with using her. While Ward's supports are there longer, also, replacing existing supports with better ones isn't nearly as helpful as adding supports where there were none in the first place. Ward's supporters can get full supports without Ward, while Sophia's supporters would have a much harder time doing so. Quote: “free guiding ring” First, I’m confused as to how you figure this, and would like an explanation. She doesn't join with one. If you get one for recruiting her or something, or deploying her in one chapter, that doesn't require her to be used. Second, it's entirely insignificant regardless. This game’s Funds Rank is even more lenient than FE7’s, which is already cake to S Rank. Another 10K in assets means almost nothing at all towards that. Even if it mattered, which it doesn't, Ward can counter by the fact that Axes are considerably cheaper than Dark and Staves. ... 'k, I looked on Serenes. Apparently only Sophia can pick up a Guiding Ring in the desert. Well, like I said already, she doesn't have to be trained or anything, except fielded for one chapter, to get that. IIRC pplz don't get points for items they join with, which is the same situation (for example, Louise joins w/ White Gem and must be fielded for one chapter). Similar to the way that Dart must be fielded in one chapter to get Geitz, but you never hear him being boosted on the tier lists because of it. Louise you don't have to use ever. She can go untouched the entire chapter and never move or do anything, and you still get the White Gem, so of course she doesn't get any credit for it. Even if she got killed off on the first turn, you would still get it. Dart recruiting Getiz gets you the weapons Geitz has, sure, but for you to get anything else, you have to start fighting with Geitz, not Dart, so it's a minimal advantage. It cuts a bit out of his extra promotion cost, and that's about it. Axes are only cheaper than dark and staves if he's only using low level axes like Iron. Iron+Killer is about the same cost as Flux+Heal, even assuming he uses Iron much more than he uses Killer. If the extra funds is insignificant, I could give Sophia a couple of Angelic Robes and a couple of Nosferatu tomes, and now it's in the other direction but still just as insignificant. Durability problems after promotion? No longer. With those full hit supports, she doesn't even need any Angelic Robes since she isn't missing. She just needs Nosferatu for a full heal anytime she gets hit. So even if you suddenly decide that the cost does matter, she still doesn't have durability problems. Quote: Actually, scratch that, her incredibly crappy durability even after promotion counters it already (promoted Sophia gives you another healer to help keep others alive, but she is herself a very frail unit that dies when sneezed on), and then the babying needed to gain staves at all would just be a massive amount of phail stacked on top of that. “but ward liability too” Not to nearly the same extent as Sophia. A 20/10 Ward with Lott and Dieck support faces only ~7% real Hit from Ch. 21’s Steel Lance Dragon Knights, and takes 5 hits from them in order to die. A 20/10 Sophia (extremely lenient to her) faces ~43% real hit and dies in only two hits. That’s an overwhelming durability advantage for Ward even when Sophia was assumed to be on the same level, which is almost certainly not going to happen. The simple fact that Ward should be a few levels away from promotion when Sophia joins at 1/0 is evidence enough that they should never be on the same level. In fact, we’ll take it even farther than that, and remove Ward’s supports; now he’s 4HKO’d at about the same hit as Sophia. So even with absurd favoritism shown towards Sophia (assuming she’s on the same level as Ward, taking off Ward’s supports), Ward still lives twice as long in the given example? Indeed. If the situation is bad for Sophia when everything is played in her favor to the greatest extent that is even remotely reasonable, then imagine what it’s like when the situation is viewed realistically. In case your imagination is weak, I’ll just let you know: It’s not a pretty sight. Oh wait, we didn’t factor in Ward’s WTA over Wyverns in this situation, did we? And just when I thought things couldn’t get any uglier for Sophia. Anyway. Sophia takes shatloads of damage when she gets hit, and she doesn't have anywhere near reliable avoid, but wait....she heals it all back...! Sure, 20/10 is a bit unrealistic, but she doesn't need to be 20/10. Make it 20/5, or 15/10, or even 10/15. She gets staves when she promotes, so her exp gains won't be hurt too much by promoting early. C475_1337 Aug 29 2007, 03:56 PM Quote: No, he's getting doubled by several enemies, like even the cavaliers in ch 4, and obviously by Mercs and Nomads, and having the lowest def of any of the physical attackers doesn't help. And he gets about 55 hit on enemies. No one else sucks that much. That’s right, go off on a side tangent like this, and ignore the actual point being made. The main point, restated in a more concise form so that you have no more opportunities to try and divert it, is this: I daresay the gap between using Ward and using Dieck or someone early on is less than the gap between Ward and Sophia when the little girl joins. Quote: Also, one Sophia promotes, she can actually be useful with healing and junk. After she promotes. That is not happening without considerable babysitting; Sophia can kill nothing at all on her own when she first joins, and gets killed by everything. Her joining situation is by far the worst in the entire game, I believe. She has to be blocked off alot so that she doesn’t get raped, and has to have others severely weaken things for her (frequently going out of their way to do so) in order to ever kill anything. And even when she has a shot at finishing something, her hit is terrible; at base level, 75 Hit with Flux—50 Hit against an enemy with 10 AS and 5 Luck (not unreasonable at all for an FE6 HM enemy). So take the amount of times you have to weaken things for her already, and multiply by two, to account for all the times she misses. Wow. Even more suck. No, suck is still a huge understatement, I don't even know how to properly express how massive this is......worst combat ability possible, pretty much. 50 hit is indeed pretty crap, but Ward's 55 hit when he joins isn't much better. Is the gap between using Ward and using Dieck or someone early on less than the gap between Ward and Sophia when she joins? Well, the gap in hit is about the same. Others also had the advantage of doubling when Ward was not, but Ward doesn't have that advantage on Sophia. His advantage in damage makes up for that, though. Now, the biggest difference is that when Sophia joins, having a crappy unit is much more manageable. Well, it's not all in just when they join. Some of it is in the difference between them as well. Sophia is ranged, so when she attacks, she isn't getting countered like Ward was. You can argue that Ward's much better durability in comparison to Sophia's makes up for this, but never getting attacked at all is certainly better than getting countered even with more durability. And Ward is often getting doubled on the counter, and that's still happening when Sophia joins. Of course there's enemy phase, but there's also another problem for Ward. When he attacks, unless he kills the enemy, which he definitely isn't doing when he misses and often isn't doing even when he hits since if another unit already attacked, they're now in the way, making it harder for Ward to attack as well. Anyway, unless he kills the enemy, it's much harder for someone to come in and finish it off since he's in the way. Since Sophia is ranged, she isn't getting in the way, so she doesn't have this problem. So if you can't finish that enemy, Ward is taking a second attack from it in addition to any other attacks which are much more likely to happen since he's at the front instead of further back and behind ppl and stuff like Sophia. That's mostly it for the difference between the units themselves. The rest of the difference it is that it usually takes 2-3 rounds for ppls to kill enemies, and units aren't as durable, etc., but when Sophia joins, it takes 1-2 rounds for ppls to kill things, others are more durable, and so on, so the burden of a crappy unit is much more easily handled. Is the gap between using Ward and using Dieck or someone early on less than the gap between Ward and Sophia when she joins? No, not at all. Quote: As for Sophia’s help to the Exp Rank which you tote? First, remember that terrible base Hit I mentioned earlier? Getting high Exp gains half the time doesn't look so good when you get only 1 Exp the other half of the time. No, if she misses, it doesn't die, so the exp is still there for the taking. Her missing doesn't hurt the exp rank, so it doesn't do anything to reduce the benefit of getting high exp gains when she hits. It actually helps it even more, by a tiny +1. Before promotion, Sophia sucks harder, but in a way that's easier to manage and during a time when it's easier to manage it, and Ward sucks longer with most of it during a time when it's harder to manage it. No advantage for Ward there. Sophia helps the exp rank. Clear advantage for Sophia there. After promotion (which can be done early, possibly even before Ward promotes since he has to wait until the end of ch 16 regardless), Sophia gets staves. Clear advantage for Sophia there. For supports, if there's any advantage for Ward, it's small and is easily beaten by either of Sophia's advantages, and she has two of them, so she wins overall.
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