Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs Jeigan

Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs Jeigan
Big Boss	Sep 14 2007, 06:21 PM
Posts: 650 Group: FEFFer Member #890 Joined: August 19, 2006	Quote: Buena suerte, señor Snake. Buena suerte a ti también, señor Borde Carmesí. Quote: Rebecca vs. Marcus. %::% Soez, supports. Quote: Lowen—with a Rebecca Support, he’s one of the most durable units in the game. In addition, unlike your other tank, Oswin, Lowen has mobility. Not only is Lowen a good unit, but Lowen x Rebecca is Fire x Fire, which is desirable to Lowen since he wants offensive boosts as much as possible. Quote: Lowen—Lowen vastly prefers A Rebecca/B Eliwood. FirexFire and FirexAnima >>> FirexIce due to the grants of Atk/Crit (and Hit for FirexFire), which Lowen severely needs. Just to let you know, Lowen is more durable with a Marcus support rather than with a Rebecca support (same Avo, more Def, more Crt evade). Marcus support is also considerably faster (Rebecca B is 78 turns, Marcus A is 75 turns). So, when 78 turns have passed, we have 1 Def, 5 Hit, 5 Avo, 7 CEV against 1 Atk and 3 Crt. Marcus support is clearly looking better here. Another point to consider is how well Marcus and Lowen work as a team. Marcus being near Lowen is a magnificent help as Lowen's offense is shaky before promotion. Let's see an example for chapter 12: Brigand. 24 HP, 3 Def Rebecca. 10 Atk Lowen. 12(+1) Atk Marcus. 20 (+1) Atk Iron weapons for everyone (Marcus and Lowen have swords, for WTA). They don't double (Marcus is carrying a unit). We can see that Marcus-Lowen team kill the enemy in one round, while Lowen-Rebecca doesn't. And this is just at the first chapter. Tell me, Solid, what happens when you fight more sturdy units like Armors and cavaliers? On top of that, Marcus and Lowen are easier to keep together so the support is active for more time. Clearly a better support, so Lowen goes with A Marcus, B Rebecca. Quote: Raven—one of the best characters in the game. Wil and Bartre are useless and Priscilla wants Erk and Guy (both of whom are good units) due to better bonuses, so he definitely wants a Rebecca Support. No, Priscilla prefers Raven over Guy. Guy gives Atk, Raven gives Def. Priscilla doesn't attack for a very long time, so the defense is more welcome. Also, even tough Guy joins earlier, the support is much slower, so Raven-Pris can be completed earlier. Then Raven gets Lucius as his B. Lucius gets the much needed full def boost. Rebecca gives more avoid, yes, but Lucius is a healer after promotion, so in actual practice, Raven is more durable when standing near Lucius. Lucius support is also much faster. Quote: Dart—Yes, he costs 50k. However, a lot of that is offset due to the availability of the Silver Card. Dart has good stats, with high Strength and Speed, so he’s definitely a valid choice. A Fire x Fire Support is useful to him due to Hit and Avo. Not using Dart>>using Dart. Ocean seal has a value of 50k gold, Earth seal 20k, and regular promo items 10k. If we want to spend 50k gold on promotion, we have the choice of promoting Dart, or promoting other 4-5 units for the same price. Clearly obvious which is the wisest choice. Then Dart's joining situation is pretty bad. He doesn't have good starting Spd, subpar Hit and mediocre defensive stats. He shouldn't be used. Quote: Wil/Louise/Nino—I won’t pretend these units are anything but garbage. However, let it be quickly noted that they all lack sufficient Supports, and Fire is a killer affinity, so they wouldn’t mind a Rebecca Support were they ever played and were Rebecca ever free. Garbage units have no place in a ranked run. Nino may be used for 1-2 chapters, for experience rank purpose, but then she gets dropped of the team. As for Wil and Louise, using more than 1 sniper=lol Quote: Eliwood—Eliwood wants A Hector/B Lowen. His Hector Support is uber fast and Lowen grants Atk, which Eliwood would prefer to more Def as he his defensive parameters are already good. Lowen is already full with Marcus and Rebecca, so Marcus can get his B suport. This is it for my supports argument, so let's see what happens with your comparisons. First, the endgame one. 20/10 Rebecca. B Lowen, B Sain. Killer Bow: 31.2 Atk, 149 Hit, 65 Crit, 22.7 AS \| 37.8 HP, 78.4 Avo, 9.2 Def, 11.4 Res Silver Bow: 35.2 Atk, 149 Hit, 35 Crit, 23.7 AS \| 37.8 HP, 80.4 Avo, 9.2 Def, 11.4 Res 20/12 Marcus. A Lowen, B Eliwood. Killer Axe: 31.3 Atk, 136.6 Hit, 47.2 Crit, 13.8 AS \| 38.1 HP, 63.9 Avo, 14.6 Def, 14.8 Res Silver Axe: 35.3 Atk, 136.6 Hit, 17.2 Crit, 13.8 AS \| 38.1 HP, 63.9 Avo, 14.6 Def, 14.8 Res Oh, btw, I added the S rank bonus for Marcus. While Rebecca has better AS, Marcus doubles the majority of enemies out there. Plus, Marcus is actually attacking during the enemy phase, so overall he is dealing more damage. Defensively, Marcus almost always matches Rebecca in avoid thanks to weapon triangle control, and has more solid defense and resistance. Marcus' class offers more utility value, such as visiting villages faster and rescuing people. Also, since Marcus gets supports, that negates your long stat up items argument thing. In fact, Marcus' supports are better because he is fully supported. Rewinding back to midgame. 20/1 Rebecca, B Lowen, B Sain Killer Bow: 27.6 Atk, 131 Hit, 57.8 Crit, 17.3 AS \| 32.4 HP, 63.1 Avo, 7.8 Def, 8.7 Res 20/8 Marcus A Lowen, B Eliwood. Killer Axe: 30.1 Atk, 132 Hit, 46 Crit, 12.8 AS \| 35.5 HP, 60.7 Avo, 14Def, 13.4Res Marcus' level was a bit low. From the starting chapter to this point, there are about 15 chapters, counting sidequests, so Marcus could have easily gained 7 levels. I added his S rank bonus for this one, too. Once again, Rebecca only has AS, but Marcus is doubling fine. Defensively, Marcus crushes Rebecca. He has only 3 less avoid without factoring WTA, a minor lead in HP and a solid lead in Def and Res. As always, the character's classes give an advantage to Marcus in offense and usefulness. Marcus is better mid and lategame, and I honestly don't feel like I need to elaborate earlygame, but still... Quote: Before you make arguments concerning Marcus' earlygame utility, let me intercept you in saying that whatever "earlygame usefulness" Marcus possesses spears itself upon the massive EXP detriment that you face when using him therein. I expect you to say something along the lines of, “But he helps the other ranks!” Definitelysawthiscoming/10 Let's see. Rebecca's base defensive stats suck too much. You aren't taking the risk of her being attacked so she's only weakening for 10 exp per turn. Marcus gets 3 EXP by weakening, 6 since he should attack during both phases. He may even attack 3 times and get 9 experience. Dealing more damage to 2-3 enemies>>scratching 1 enemy. You would have a point if Marcus was actually killing. And Marcus not only helps your ranks, he helps other people by setting easy kills, preventing damage and fulfilling certain objectives, such as recruiting Priscilla. Quote: I’ll admit that he does, to a certain extent, help the early Tactics/Survival ranks, you’re right. However, using Marcus also requires using EXP fillers—most of whom, due to their underlevelledness, are not great at combat, so in turn they’re _hurting_ your Tactics/Survival ranks later on (hard to keep alive + need to have kills set up for them). Not only that, but using a filler means that your main party is losing out on EXP, so Marcus is indirectly lowering the party’s levels later on, a further strain on Tactics/Survival (lower stats = harder to satisfy ranks). This negates his earlygame benefit. Using Marcus requires fillers? Not rly. You don't even have fillers for some time, since all your team is at a low level. The first underleveled unit I can think of is Raven, but he starts great. Other one I can think of is Heath, who has nice defensive bases so he doesn't hurt survival, and Rath, who snipes from the back so he doesn't die. Using Raven, Rath and Heath help your experience rank. The very few experience you didn't gain by using Marcus is recovered here, and you still got Marcus' h4x benefits. If anything, fillers are an argument in my favour. Quote: Basically, to summarize this outline, Rebecca slaughters Marcus statistically midgame and lategame, and during the only time where he could possibly have had a win due to Jeigan utility, earlygame, he’s being detrimental to your EXP Rank (and his traded benefit is largely negated, as well, due to the later use of fillers). As soon as she builds her first Support level, she has a massive advantage over Marcus (giving others Support bonuses = win, and it only continues to increase until it levels off at 5 levels), as well, and from there on it’s downhill for the old man. Rebecca > Marcus. Alright. Summary. Marcus wtfraeps Rebecca earlygame stat and utility wise and is still better midgame. By lategame is when Rebecca has a chance, but she is still not impressing anyone. Rebecca has no answer to Marcus' massive help to ranks, and her class hurts her a lot. When you are not biased against Marcus and give him supports, you can clearly see he is the better unit. Marcus>>>>>
	^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan

Solid vs Jeigan · Debates