| Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs Jeigan | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Sep 17 2007, 04:42 PM |
 
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Indeed, and that had nothing to do with what I was saying, so it's irrelevant. What you managed to conveniently ignore, however, was: Lowen vastly prefers A Rebecca/B Eliwood. FirexFire and FirexAnima >>> FirexIce due to the grants of Atk/Crit (and Hit for FirexFire), which Lowen severely needs. For Lowen, the added offense >>> the added defense.
A few more chapters with one more level of Support <<< better bonuses for a longer amount of time.
And when 118 turns have passed, we have 2 Atk and 8 Crt vs. 1 Def (lol, CEV's totally worthless), and the latter circumstance lasts throughout the rest of the game. This game has 28 chapters counting gaidens. If Lowen's A Rebecca finishes in ~12 chapters, then that's still ~16 chapters where Rebecca's Support is better than Marcus', and the later chapters of the game are considerably longer than the early chapters, so it’s around for more turns, as well. 2 Atk translates into 4 Atk per double, which is very nice on a unit that struggles with one of the game’s worst offensive stat sets. The 1 Def, however, Lowen will barely ever notice because he’s the best tank in the game. That’s similar to giving Hector an Energy Ring instead of a Speedwing. Also, the C Support only differs by 17 turns, and when they’re at equal Support levels (for many turns, this is the case), the difference is again very strongly in Rebecca’s favor, so the Marcus Support isn’t necessarily better for those _entire_ 12 chapters, whereas the Rebecca Support is better for those _entire_ 16 chapters. “but mounted” Yes, and this will come in handy the entire two or so times that you move both Lowen and Marcus to the full extent of their Move while not attacking any enemies. It’s approximately cancelled out since high Move units are also the ones who go to visit villages and such, so the actual speed at which the Support progresses is barely altered. In fact, far more significant is the fact that Rebecca has constant 2 range. That means she can attack from diagonal squares, so when Rebecca and Lowen attack the same enemy, Rebecca can be Supporting Lowen that turn as well (meanwhile, for Marcus to have 2 range available all the time, he loses Crit/Atk from not using Killer/Silver weaponry). Rebecca Support >>> Marcus Support.
"And this is just the first chapter." Of course it is. In earlier chapters, Marcus has better raw statistics than everyone, so naturally this is true. The stat comparisons listed in my post showed Rebecca to have better offense than Marcus when it's not earlygame, however, and Lowen's offense is better with a Rebecca Support than it is with a Marcus Support, so it logically follows that Rebecca + Lowen's offense >>> Marcus + Lowen's offense at that time. Either way, "total offense" doesn't matter, since you're not using only two units in the game, so I don’t know what you’re trying to say. What the actual partner deals damagewise has no relevance to what the Support is doing. Not Supporting them doesn’t mean they can’t attack the same enemy (nor does Supporting them imply they must attack the same enemy). If you’re saying Marcus > Rebecca in stats earlygame, then that’s already obvious (the problem is with EXP, not stats), so you’ve proved just about nothing. Armors? Good thing Lowen has that Crit/Atk boost from his Rebecca Support. Even earlygame, Rebecca gives more Crit and Atk to Lowen than Marcus does, so he’s always better offensively with a Rebecca Support than he is with a Marcus Support. _Always_, even if it’s A Marcus vs. B Rebecca.
Marcus can’t transfer stats over to Lowen by standing next to him, what are you talking about? He can weaken a unit for Lowen to finish, but that has nothing to do with the Support. Oh, so you admit Lowen’s offense is shaky. Good thing his Rebecca Support gives him more Attack/Crit than his Marcus Support.
Nowhere in my post did I imply that they would be used. I said _if_ they were ever used, they would Support Rebecca, which is true. Either way, lol, I have no problem “conceding” this, as it has no bearing whatsoever on my case.
No, 14, 15, 16, 17, ~4 chapters. Guy can easily be nearing or at a C with Priscilla by the time Raven shows up, so the Supports finish at about the same time. If there's a difference, it's fairly negligible. Anyway, it gives 8 more Crit and 2 more Atk, which is way better than 1 Defense for Priscilla, especially since by the time the bonuses are fully in effect, Priscilla is promoted (before then, she’s a healer, so she should never be getting attacked anyway, but the Mag boost still helps for healing). Defense on a unit like Priscilla is almost entirely put to waste—1 point of Def is not going to save her from being OHKO’d or 2HKO’d. It’s Avo she wants, and Guy already gives her the same Avo that Raven does, so then she looks to that juicy 2 Atk and 8 Crit. Priscilla also has constant 1-2 range + Physic, so she doesn't ever get counterattacked on Player Phase (and attacked less than most on Enemy Phase, since 1-2 range + high Move + Physic allows you to position yourself more strategically). Also, Supports work both ways. With full Supports, Guy has the game’s highest Crit value and, thus, the game’s biggest offense. If he doesn’t get Prsicilla, whom is he going to have to round out his Supports? -10 Crit/-2 Atk/-5 Avo for Guy is significant. For one, it moves his Crit value from “almost 100% reliable” to “good, but not always 100% reliable.” For two, it lowers his already borderline Atk by a full 2 points, meaning 4 less damage per double, 6 less damage on a Crit, and 12 less damage in two Crits. Sure, Guy would still be a good unit, but is it not a much better idea to simply Support Raven with Rebecca? Indeed. Then you listed Lucius, who has possibly the game’s worst durability (maybe Lyn aside), even with a Raven Support. Lucius won’t be used the majority of the time. So even if Raven took Priscilla, he wants a second Support, and Rebecca’s available for that purpose. So, let’s see, for Rebecca to not get this Support… 1.) Lucius must be in play 2.) Priscilla must be in play 3.) Guy must NOT be in play Lol, all three of those happening = no. The other alternative is that Raven just isn’t in play, but that’s just as “lol”
wut. No. That’s not how it works. For Dart’s promotion cost to interfere with others’ promotions, you’d have to be using like 20+ units. Each unit in this game, on a 12-unit team, gets 29k to spend. -10k for promoting. Now, you’re likely to have prepromotes on your team—that saves you money. You’re likely to be using Ninian, who doesn’t use money at all, so that saves you 29k. You’re likely to be using Magic users, who don’t have to buy Killer/Silver Weapons, so that saves you money. Hector doesn’t have a promotion cost, so that saves you 10k. Fillers shouldn’t be promoting, so that saves you money. Dart spends his 29k and then goes 21k over. From Ninian’s share alone, you have enough to promote Dart and still have everyone promote and use Killers and everything. No problems that I can see. Funds in this game is a joke.
Perhaps for a bit, but with a little use he’s one of the best units in the game. Huge Spd + Str + Axes + Crit Boost? w1n Anyway, even if Dart weren’t used, Rebecca would take B Sain. Doesn’t matter much to her. She loses some Avoid, but her Avoid is still great, so meh. The fact is, Rebecca has a _fallback_. Marcus, meanwhile, is never above 3rd on any useful unit’s list, so far from a fallback, he doesn’t even have Supports most of the time. Oh, or Rebecca could get A Raven and still get full Avoid.
You somehow ignored the “Eliwood x Lowen > Marcus x Lowen” bit in my post. Fire x Anima >>> Fire x Ice for much the same reasons as Fire x Fire was >>> Fire x Ice. In this case, Lowen gets less Crit, but the Def gains are equal, and then there’s still Atk left over. Lowen x Eliwood is also faster than Rebecca vs. Lowen, so it makes sense that what applied for the latter in terms of chapters (16 > 12) will apply to the former. Lowen wants B Eliwood more than he wants B Marcus. And then, let’s not forget that Eliwood also prefers Atk and Crit to Def (again, lol @ more CEV), since he already has fairly good defensive parameters but is not as good offensively, so Eliwood himself would also prefer a Lowen Support to a Marcus Support. So, basically, Lowen’s full and Eliwood’s full. Marcus goes with nothing.
ROFL @ the 10 vs. 9 comparison. Enemies don’t change on a turn-by-turn basis, nor does EXP/turn have any relevance--EXP/enemy does. The amount of enemies in a given chapter is set. If Marcus weakens three enemies and gets 9 EXP, others could have weakened those same three enemies and gotten 30 EXP, so in reality you’re losing 21 EXP, not 1. That’s where the Tactics-EXP tradeoff comes in. You lose 21 EXP, and in turn you weaken enemies faster. To make that EXP up later, however, you have to use fillers, so the Tactics “benefit” is actually nonexistent. And actually it’s even more than 21 EXP, because if an enemy takes 3 hits to kill, and Marcus whittles its HP down so it takes 1 hit to kill, you’re losing out on an entirely separate attack somewhere there. It’s something like 30-40 EXP every three enemies. Meanwhile, Rebecca can be safely used without hurting the EXP Rank. She’s actually helpful due to being a ranged attacker early on, and she can help damage Pegs in early HHM. Using her earlygame is a good idea, but using Marcus earlygame is not. Also, since she’s ranged, she can fill in little niches, never get attacked on Enemy Phase, and never take counters on Player, so there’s no reason NOT to use her early on, especially since she’s not using a character select slot for a bit. Then once her stats/Supports start building up she becomes h4xer and h4xer. If anything, Rebecca is winning earlygame.
You say “not rly” but then you never go on to prove anything about why fillers don’t have to be used—you only mention the fillers themselves.
If Heath, Rath, and Raven are being used only as fillers and are taking away levels from my main team, that’s a bad thing. A bad thing I could have avoided had I not used Marcus. This isn’t FE9, where there’s BEXP for finishing faster and no EXP rank. Also, as you progress through the game, your characters get higher leveled but you still see unpromoted enemies, so your EXP gains later often fail to meet the EXP requirements. S-ing EXP is easier if you distribute your party’s levels throughout the game. Under that premise, Marcus is actually _at the same level_ as Rebecca in those comparisons I listed in my first post, since he shouldn’t be used until everyone is 20/1. Let’s check it out. 20/1 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Dart (or B Sain, doesn’t matter) Killer Bow: 26.6 Atk, 131 Hit, 67.8 Crit, 17.3 AS | 32.4 HP, 73.1 Avo, 7.8 Def, 8.7 Res 20/1 Marcus Killer Axe: 26 Atk, 99 Hit, 37.5 Crit, 11.0 AS| 31 HP, 30 Avo, 8.0 Def, 8.0 Res Rebecca wins offense due to Crit/AS. Rebecca wins defense due to Avo h4x. Rebecca has Supports. Rebecca >>> Marcus by a greater margin than before. That’s what happens when you distribute EXP out evenly so that you don’t have to use fillers. However, it wouldn’t even matter if Marcus were 20/6-20/8—as shown in the first post, he’d _still_ be losing.
Marcus isn’t S’ing Axes if he wants to have his precious WTA. He has an A in Lances and an A in Swords. Since he’s going to be using all three more or less equally, he’s going to S-Rank one of his A’s.
For the S Rank, see above comment. About the 15 chapters—it’s not how many levels he _can_ get, it’s how many he _should_ get, and he shouldn’t get many due to EXP Rank.
Lol, “definitelysawthiscoming/10” Don’t pretend like Rebecca isn’t attacking during Enemy Phase. She’s just not attacking as much as melee units. There exist plenty (especially in HHM) of 1-2 ranged physical enemies, magical enemies, and Bow enemies, and she can lure them all into her range and force them to evoke a counterattack. In that capacity, she’s the single best character for dealing with HHM Valkyries, perhaps the most threatening enemies in the game. Due to her >90 Avoid, the Valkyries have less than 2% real chance to _hit_ her, let alone kill her (the kill chance is much less than 1% real), 0% real if she’s on terrain. Then, unlike magical tanks that can also handle Valks, Rebecca attacks Def, so she’ll do more damage than they can. Being the #1 candidate for handling the most threatening enemy in the game >>> There’s more than just that. A normal unit has 7 Atk range after promotion. Rebecca has 8. That means that she can outrange a Hero (or a Berserker, which is also threatening—and which, coincidentally, often uses a Tomahawk) and attack him on the Player Phase, whereas most others would have to equip a weak ranged weapon to do so and sacrifice the needed Crit or Atk power. w1n for Rebecca. Her class is actually being an _advantage_ for her here. Oh, but you say Marcus can outrange Heroes as well? Lol, sure, but he doesn’t double them, unlike Rebecca. He actually gets doubled by them (he has 13-14 AS, Heroes have 17-18). Being one of the few units who can successfully outrange and kill the second most threatening enemy in the game >>> getting doubled by said enemy. Which brings me to another point. While lack of melee range can be worked around a lot of the time, Marcus’ lack of Speed cannot. In the lategame, 20/10-12 Marcus can’t double Heroes, Wyvern Riders, Wyvern Lords, Swordmasters, Nomads, Nomad Troopers, Berserkers, Warriors, Snipers, Valkyries, and Paladins. And lategame is when enemy Speed has had the _most_ time to fail, so this is Marcus doubling at his best. Speed growths are very, very low (a Hero has 20%), but bases are very high. Yes, Marcus doubles unpromoted enemies. No one is impressed, since most everyone on your team can do that. Marcus’ offense isn’t just worse than Rebecca’s—it’s worse than most characters’ offenses on the team. As for a lot of the enemies he _does_ double, his Speed is borderline. The RNG generates at random. Stats are rarely exact. So it could go a point down or a point up—doubling all the time >>> doubling only when your stats are average or better. Stats are way more important than class. And Rebecca’s stats are amazing. Her Crit, for example, is one of the best in the game. Guy is often considered the best unit in the game despite lacking 2 range and only having average Move. Why is that? It’s because of Crit. With Guy’s Crit, he has nearly a 98% chance to kill any enemy in the game. Fully Supported Rebecca at 20/1 has 67.8 Crit with a Killer Bow. That’s ~90% chance to Crit once on a double. That means 90% chance to kill virtually any enemy in the game like Guy. The probability, indeed, is that she’ll _double Crit_ instead of single Crit. In the face of that, not being able to counterattack melee isn’t terribly important at all. And then most attacking is completed on the Player Phase—especially for Rebecca, who can outrange and usually Crit + KO the average unit. Rebecca can also function as a tank with her high Avoid, so not countering on the Enemy Phase even when she is attacked doesn’t matter for her. She can lure enemies in so your other characters can reach them, much like Oswin, except that she has more Move. And unlike Oswin, Rebecca takes 0 damage from _both_ physical and magical (massive Avoid >>> massive Def). h4x
Hold on there, Jetro. Even under this situation (which shouldn’t exist since Marcus won’t have full Supports), Rebecca would have either A Dart or A Raven. B Sain’s about her last choice. Both of those raise her Avoid by 10. 20/10 Rebecca has 90.4 Avoid with those Supports and a Silver Bow, not 80.4, so the Avoid gap is larger than you claim (or if she had A Lowen, which she should, but we’re being generous to Marcus here—very generous). Lol, WTA? Well, Rebecca can never suffer WTD, whereas Marcus can (and in later chapters, where enemies have varied weapons, he most likely will), so that cancels out “WTA control.” On Player Phase, which is when Marcus will have WTA, Rebecca doesn’t take a counterattack from melee, so she w1ns. On Enemy Phase, chances are that the enemies that are going to attack Marcus will have WTA on him. He also doesn’t have WTA to Magic or Bows, which form a significant portion of the enemy total. So it’s 20ish Avoid vs. 5ish Def and 3ish Res. If a physical enemy has 30 Atk and 100 Hit (averaging out WTD and WTA): Marcus takes 15.4 damage @ ~26.28% real, dies in 3 Rebecca takes 20.8 damage @ ~1.71% real, dies in 2 Chance of Marcus dying after 4 attacks = 5.83% Chance of Rebecca dying after 4 attacks = << 1% Rebecca = w1nn4r And against magical, it’s even worse than this, since the Res gap isn’t as big as the Def gap between the two.
On the contrary, it remains. Now, here’s the settler: Even when Marcus has full Supports, Rebecca manages to keep up or be better statistically. In your lategame comparison, it’s Crit, AS, and Avoid vs. Def and Res. Rebecca is the winner there. She still has that Huge Avoid and that Huge Crit for offensive and defensive h4x, and then she doubles a lot more. In your midgame comparison, Marcus was 20/8, which is a ludicrous assumption. Even so, Rebecca’s Crit and AS are greater for offensive purposes and then, once you apply A Dart or A Raven to her, it’s again Avoid vs. Def/Res. Rebecca is arguably the winner. But what happens in the more likely case that Marcus has no Supports, Jeigan? That’s right, he stands no chance against Rebecca. It’s not arguable at all. View the first post again, please. Even with a single Support, he wouldn’t be a match.
Nice skewing. “Very few.” 700 EXP for Marcus, under a 3:1 ratio, would mean about 2100 EXP lost—by using Marcus, I just negated Ninian’s EXP gain entirely and then some (like, 800 EXP left over after Ninian goes from 7 to 20), so I need to make that up somehow. How am I going to do that, Snake? Tell me. I do want to know. w8….you mean….use fillers!?!?!?!?! Bingo. And using fillers means that I have to set up kills for them. That’s obviously a bad thing, as it wastes Turns. Then, fillers take levels from the rest of your party, also a bad thing. Then, fillers don’t have Supports, so that means they’re not as durable as your main party. No, not even Heath and Rath. Heath’s Def is by no means impressive, especially since he has a weakness to Bows and not-stellar Avo. Rath’s worse off. “Rath snipes from the back” is laughable since that would imply I have to protect him or wall him in, which is phail.
What? Using Marcus doesn’t allow you to use fillers—you can do that either way. What are you talking about? However, _having_ to use fillers <<<< not. It’s painfully obvious. Rebecca > Marcus, earlygame, midgame, and lategame. |
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