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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Sep 22 2007, 10:57 PM |
 
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It doesn’t matter. If he’s already one of the best defensive units in the game, more defense isn’t going to help him. No matter which of the two Supports he gets, he is going to be one of the most durable units in the game, so your statement is indeed irrelevant.
The earliest part? Supports aren’t active for the “earliest part,” and the time difference between their C Supports is actually the smallest time difference there is.
You cleverly ignored the Crit, and also my main point. Ok, I’ll format my logic for you: Lowen’s Marcus Support gives him more defensive bonuses than his Rebecca Support. Lowen’s Rebecca Support gives him more offensive bonuses than his Marcus Support. Lowen is one of the most durable units in the game. He’s your best tank, in fact. Meanwhile, he's one of your worst offensive units. Which Support does he want more, Kratos? As for Support Level differences...Rebecca’s Support gives Lowen more Atk and Crit _even when_ it’s A Marcus vs. B Rebecca, so it’s still giving him offense vs. defense, and Lowen wants the offense. By about level 14 or so, when the Support time differences REALLY come into play (being negligible at C), Lowen is already a great unit defensively.
I can’t counter when you don’t back up your claims. Please show me how more time helps him more. Lol, see how that logic falls apart? Now, if you seriously want evidence, see the sequence above. Also, it’s not just 2 Atk, you forgot the Crit. And, actually, when you think about it, it’s not even “time and defense vs. offense.” The Rebecca Support grants an additional 1 Atk and 3 Crt even before the Supports are fully completed (A vs. B, for example), so there’s not really a time factor involved apart from the first 17 turns. So, in the end, it is JUST offense vs. defense, and it’s clear which Lowen prefers.
Not so. Level 14 Lowen has ~12 raw Defense and ~33-34 HP, which is nice indeed. To contrast, Hector has only about 2 more Defense and 3 less HP. And before you say “But level 5 Lowen,” remember that these Support bonuses aren’t doing much, if anything at all, until a ways into the game. Also, the same could be said for offense. “Any earlygame unit is far from 2HKOing, so Lowen receiving Rebecca’s offensive Support definitely helps.” So, again, we have offense vs. defense, in which case Lowen prefers his Rebecca Support.
First of all, don’t you mean A Rebecca/B Eliwood? That’s the setup I was proposing, and that’s the only way your calculations make sense. You use one particular example and say that +2 Atk makes no difference? Wow. If you really believe that, then I don’t even know what to say. That’s like saying “The fact that Unit A has 2 more Atk than Unit B doesn’t matter as 2 Atk isn’t helping at all against this one enemy.” What if that Hero had 1 more Defense? The first Lowen kills it in 4 hits, whereas the second Lowen kills it in 3. ZOMG, so it matters after all!!!!!! Enemy stats vary, you know. There ARE, indeed, going to be times at this point where that Atk doesn’t matter, but there are also going to be times when that Atk DOES matter. On the other hand, that 1 Defense is almost never going to matter. Lol, now, even your example is flawed. First of all, you left out the Crit again. Each of those attacks, Lowen #2 has some more% chance to Crit his enemy. That’s _certainly_ helping his offense. Anyway, the Attack alone is enough to win it; the Crit is just an added bonus. And notice how he does 4 more damage in two rounds of combat with the second setup? Yes. That makes it easier for others to kill off the enemy, as well. Don’t just assume that Lowen is alone against it. I expect you to bring up some examples of others and show how it doesn’t make a difference, but that’s entirely unimpressive, as whatever evidence you could provide would be situational. I’ll put it simply, so you can’t skew it again: for 2 Atk (and some Crit) to NOT make a difference, your offense would have to be amazing, and Lowen’s offense is quite far from amazing. On the other hand, his defenses ARE amazing, so 1 Def is almost never going to help him.
Please. Enemies are not 7 spaces apart from each other every single time. The only time the extra Move is going to come in handy for building the Support is when both are moving through a load of empty squares. This isn’t FE6, though, so that’s not happening a lot.
This has no relevance at all to the Support. Lowen Supporting Marcus is not going to make Lowen a better “weakener” than Lowen Supporting Rebecca. If anything, you have it reversed, since the Rebecca Support gives better offense.
They’re most likely not going to be going together in those cases. The enemy concentration on the way to the villages is very clearly less than the enemy concentration in the main part of the map (for 14, you can see that clearly by looking at the center of the map), so sending in two units isn’t worth it. A smart player will be sending in one. Thus, the Support isn’t progressing at all during that time.
On the contrary, you get Killer Weapons starting Chapter 20, before the Supports are entirely completed. “But that’s not many chapters.” No, it’s not, but the point was that it’s much more significant than the Move advantage, and it is. To finish up about this Support: -Offense >>> defense for a unit with the best defensive parameters in the game. It’s 2 Atk (and some Crit) vs. 1 Def—even if offense and defense mattered equally for Lowen, the former would very clearly be preferable. -“Around for a longer time” means basically 17 turns + maybe 5 turns for Move advantage. The rest of the turns in the game, Rebecca Support is better, for the reason above. K, now on to the next one.
O.K.? Are you implying that Rebecca is off to some far corner of the map while Marcus and Lowen are standing right next to each other? For that to happen you’d have to deliberately be trying not to Support them. If you’re not implying that, then what are you saying? I repeat: Marcus can’t transfer his offensive stats over to Lowen. It’s perfectly plausible for Rebecca and Lowen to attack the same enemy, as much as it is plausible for Marcus and Lowen to attack the same enemy. As mentioned above, people have fairly bad offense in the earlygame. This means that Marcus won’t exclusively be attacking enemies that Lowen is attacking, either. By the time others start getting better offense, the Supports are in place, and Rebecca’s offensively geared Support >>> Marcus’ defensively geared Support.
lol, total offense. Again, you don’t seem to be getting this: Lowen Supporting Marcus is not going to mean that Marcus’ offense is suddenly added on to Lowen’s. How much Marcus is doing damagewise has no relevance _whatsoever_ to whether or not they should Support And what is this at the cost of, again? That’s right, EXP.
More Crit and more Atk (it's 8 Crit at A vs. A, by the way). It’s certainly more significant than the zero, in terms of offensive advantages, that a Marcus Support offers over a Rebecca Support.
And hurting your EXP rank sucks.
Good, you agree.
My bad. It doesn’t matter much, however, whereas the rest of the passage about which bonuses Priscilla prefers, which you didn’t try to counter, does. I’ll assume you conceded that.
Erk doesn’t exist? Erk would like a Priscilla Support, kthxbai. Erk’s only other good Support is Pent, and that’s not for a while, so Erk really wants a Priscilla Support. A Erk >>>> A Raven. It differs by only 1 turn for the A, so the Erk Support is actually faster since it starts earlier (and Erk has range for flexibility of placement before promotion). Then, for the bonuses, it’s Hit vs. Crit. Guess which Priscilla prefers? %::% Raven doesn’t get Priscilla.
Priscilla is always in play? What about Serra? “Priscilla > Serra.” No, not by a huge margin. Serra has a much higher level due to LHM (tests done by Reikken have estimates as high a level lead of 11 levels by Chapter 14 if you’re getting 19xx, and other estimates may be around 7-8 levels, and healers can’t close level gaps). The probability of Lucius being played = the probability of Priscilla not being played, more or less. While Lucius is good offensively, his defenses are game-low, horrendous. And lol, Staves. By promotion you have so many Staff users you don’t need another one anyway. Oh, and indeed, Guy’s presence does matter after all. Erk is Priscilla’s most canon Support. Raven is trying to get a B with her. Whenever Guy is played, which is almost always, Raven can’t get a B with Priscilla. So, again, Lucius has to be in play, Priscilla has to be in play, and Guy has to NOT be in play. All of those happening = lol.
No, it doesn’t come down to an option of “I can have this or I can have that.” You have enough money in this game to promote Dart and STILL promote everyone else and STILL be using Killers and such with everyone all the time, as I showed in the passage you quoted. Ninian alone adds 29k to the bank. I can only assume you misread the passage: wut. No. That’s not how it works. For Dart’s promotion cost to interfere with others’ promotions, you’d have to be using like 20+ units. Each unit in this game, on a 12-unit team, gets 29k to spend. -10k for promoting. Now, you’re likely to have prepromotes on your team—that saves you money. You’re likely to be using Ninian, who doesn’t use money at all, so that saves you 29k. You’re likely to be using Magic users, who don’t have to buy Killer/Silver Weapons, so that saves you money. Hector doesn’t have a promotion cost, so that saves you 10k. Fillers shouldn’t be promoting, so that saves you money. Dart spends his 29k and then goes 21k over. From Ninian’s share alone, you have enough to promote Dart and still have everyone promote and use Killers and everything. No problems that I can see. Funds in this game is a joke. Put in a different way: you have 348k after S Ranking Funds, and you have 11 units + Dart, so that’s 160k (-prepromotes) you need to spend to promote them all. That’s still _16k_ left per unit, and then lots of people don’t even need half of that, including Ninian, who needs exactly 0k.
Your Funds Rank takes no hit from promoting Dart. It’s _easy_ to promote him and still S Rank Funds. Reread the passage above.
No. You’re not going to take away other peoples’ best Support options just so Marcus can have full Supports. _That_ is bias. We’re judging “What’s the positives and negatives of using Marcus?” If Marcus has to let others drop their best Support setups just so he can keep up with that Rebecca, that’s a disadvantage. Thus, he can be assumed to have no Supports.
One word: Erk.
Same as with Lowen-Marcus, a bit more defense on Eliwood won’t make a difference. More offense for a longer time means he can kill more things reliably. You seem to be trying to write off offense on a situational basis, which is not only nonsensical, but it’s also biased. A 20/0 Eliwood has ~70 Avoid and 14.7 Defense (A Hector/B Lowen). Meanwhile, he only has ~16.5 Str with that setup, and he’s locked to Swords. Yeah, he definitely prefers the offense.
And what’s to say that Eliwood isn’t going to tag along? Besides, it’s a few chapters, as the first Heaven Seal doesn’t appear too much later after other people are promoting (only about 3-4 chapters worth). A small price to pay for better bonuses on both units, wouldn’t you say?
lol, this is laughable. “I want my unit to be full” isn’t a valid excuse for giving Marcus full Supports. When you’re judging the value of two units, you’re weighing the pros and cons of using each. If Marcus has to ruin other peoples’ best Support setups to have full Supports, then that’s a big detriment. Rebecca, on the other hand, far from _ruining_ the best Support setups, actually _provides_ them.
I read this part over and over and over again, trying to make sense of it, but I couldn’t do it. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Rebecca isn’t getting only 1 more Experience. Rebecca is getting 30 Experience to Marcus’ 9, she’s just taking more turns to do it. There’s a _fixed_ number of enemies. The game records how much total Experience you get in a chapter, not in a turn. If you kill all the enemies (many chapters require this, and in most chapters where it isn’t required, you’re going to do this anyway) with regular units, you get a certain amount of EXP. For _every unit_ that Marcus weakens or kills, however, that amount of EXP _decreases_. If each of 8 units can get 100 EXP in a chapter by dividing the kills amongst themselves, and Marcus can get 30, you’ve just lost 70 EXP. He’s hurting your EXP Rank. For him to get the same amount of EXP in the chapter as others, as you’re suggesting, he would have to get _more kills_ than your other units, which would still be hurting the EXP Rank as you could have distributed those kills out evenly to get more EXP. Rebecca and Marcus individually aren’t trying to S Rank Experience—the team is trying to S Rank Experience, and every single time Marcus attacks, he’s impeding that, whereas Rebecca is never impeding that. “but three enemies weakenz” And? I already said that Marcus soaks up EXP to get things done faster. That’s the point. He gets you a Turn benefit in exchange for EXP—however, that EXP detriment must be made up with fillers, so the Turn benefit, for aforementioned reasons, is negated, so in essence using Marcus earlygame is nothing but a detriment.
Yes, yes. Marcus weakens Pegs, he’s melee, he has range, etc. That’s all well and good, but Marcus can’t do that without hurting EXP Rank, so my point stands. At the very worst, they’re equal here, which would still leave Rebecca as the winner the rest of the game, so *shrugs*.
Wut. No. Explain to me, please, how EXP per turn matters more than EXP per chapter. I’m dying to hear this, especially since the game bases EXP Rank on EXP per chapter, not EXP per turn.
WTH, stop saying 1 EXP per turn. That has no relevance, as you enemies don’t regenerate infinitely every turn. It’s EXP per enemy or EXP per chapter, in which case it’s much greater. Ok, you’ve got Raven. Marcus is still losing well over 2000 EXP by getting to as high a level as you proposed, so even Raven isn’t going to make up for that (using him regularly, people still have trouble Sing EXP, let alone using him with constant Marcus use). And Heath and Rath suck to _level up_. You didn’t contest that that whole paragraph, so I assume it stands.
OU MAA GAA Wut In The World 8 units without Marcus get 800 EXP from 30 enemies (which is, say, a set number of enemies in a chapter). 8 units with Marcus get 730 EXP. Did you finish the chapter faster? Sure. Did you get less EXP? Yes! Therefore, the rest of my points about fillers stand, and earlygame Marcus is indeed a detriment.
Ok, but you concede it, so that’s good.
The difference is, Rebecca has a much greater chance of critting said Heroes and “other enemies that are melee.” She also doubles more often. Her offense >>>>> Marcus’, despite class. Did you not read the passage about Rebecca’s 91% chance to crit an enemy once on a double? That’s pretty amazing.
Lol, that would be an advantage if Marcus could actually double those promoted enemies, but he can’t, so it doesn’t matter. As for unpromoteds? Everyone except Oswin outranges those, and they’re weak, so no one cares.
Marcus, on the other hand, can’t kill these dudes because he won’t even double. And he takes actual damage from them, unlike Rebecca, and evokes a counter every time, unless he wants to equip a weak ranged weapon. Rebecca >>>> Marcus here too. Which is another point, Rebecca can function as a tank for soaking up blows. Taking 0 damage from everything (including Magic) >>>>>> That’s better than Oswin. So can Marcus, you say? No, since Marcus without Supports and WTA (since that's not constant)--and it's been proven that he should be without Supports--has 40 less Avoid than Rebecca. Even with WTA it's 25, which is significant enough to not call them "equal defensively." 25 Avoid >>>> 4-5 Def and 2-3 Res, quite easily.
Even with Swordslayer, Rebecca killing it a single Phase and either not evoking a counter or evoking a counter but never getting hit >>>> Marcus taking two, possibly three phases to do it and evoking a counter every time. Also, Swordslayer? There's only one, which I don't think even exists in HHM, sorry. Even if it does exist, there are others that want it. And endgame Wyvern Riders have 10-11ish AS. Endgame Marcus from my first post has 13.8, which is not enough to double them.
No, it’s more Move + more counters on Enemy Phase (Rebecca can counter there, just not as much) + Def/Res vs. Crit, AS, and Avoid. Rebecca’s Crit, AS, and Avoid are among the best in the game, with her one-rounding everything in the game and Avoiding every attack in the game and doubling everything (except that one lone VoD Swordmaster) in the game, so Marcus’ advantages simply don’t compare.
This is not true, as the groups will intermingle. In some chapters this is true, whereas in other chapters it is not true. Having to rely on enemy distribution to get your high Avoid <<< just having the high Avoid. Not to mention that Rebecca won’t take counters from melee on Player Phase.
At the first part of your passage, I again go ARRGH since it’s not EXP per turn, but we’ll let that be for the moment. Heath and Rath taking kills means the rest of your party misses out on those kills, in turn leading to lower levels, in turn negating Marcus’ Tactics/Survival benefits. And “no risk” is a bold statement for someone with no Supports and a weakness to Bows. No risk would imply 0 or close to 0% chance of dying. Base Heath has around 20-24 Avoid—not nearly enough to come close to negating enemy Hit, even with Axereaver. Plus his AS base is weak—you complain about Dart but you don’t complain about Heath, who has approximately the SAME Speed several chapters later? Lol, bias + double standard.
I didn’t say Rebecca snipes from the back, what are you talking about? I said Rebecca outranges enemies and kills them with a crit on a double, so that’s an advantage to her class offensively. Meanwhile, Rath’s Crit and AS are nowhere near Rebecca’s level when he joins, so he can’t claim the same. I _did_ say she doesn’t take counters on Player Phase, which is true. For Enemy Phase? Easy, she has huge Avoid, filler Rath does not. And the rest of your stuff was redundant about such things as “lol you only lose 1 EXP per turn”, so it doesn’t need to be covered. Do you actually have a point? Because at this point I could just repost my previous paragraphs and be done. Conclusion. Marcus is a detriment earlygame due to hurting EXP Rank whenever he is used. He may help Tactics during this time, but the later use of fillers contradicts and opposes any benefit that may be derived thereof. During midgame, his lack of Supports are starting to show as Rebecca continues to trounce him (judges/Kratos, view Post #1 for a comparison therein, and also for a lategame one, thank you). Lategame, he fails miserably compared to her, where she has huge AS/Crit/Avoid to handle virtually any role in the game (need another Guy? You’ve got it. Need another Oswin? you’ve got it). He may have a “class victory,” but her stats and actually existent Supports >>> his class, easily. I'm sure you'll get back to Marcus having Supports, but the facts are clear--he shouldn't have any. When he does, it's arguable, but when he doesn't, as he shouldn't the majority of the time, it's not arguable, so Rebecca is the w1nn4r. And then you failed to address a few points in my last post. I can only assume that you’re going to try to lollastpost me or something, but my case stands, so, for effect, I'll end with Rebecca > Marcus. Good debate. |
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