Viewing Single Post From: Inui vs Reikken

Viewing Single Post From: Inui vs Reikken
Reikken	Sep 25 2007, 08:20 PM
Posts: 1,838 Group: FEFFer Member #907 Joined: August 26, 2006	Quote: Quote: Serra is Sain's best B support: he already overkills atk, and Serra's affinity gives pretty much everything else, so that's w1n for him. Maybe for bonuses, sure. But Sain's almost never standing next to her and the support is already horribly slow. Please, tell me how a healer is standing next to a unit that rushes forward enough for that support to build, especially since it's so slow. Whoa, whoa. What is this? If Sain is "almost never" standing next to Serra, how the hell is Lyn next to Kent? And wtf @ this support being "horribly slow". Your facts are horribly wrong. Sain-Serra B is almost the same number of turns as Kent-Sain A. It's the same number of turns as something like Guy-Priscilla. Anyway, no, Sain doesn't rush forward. He doesn't have massive durability. He has offense, and he attacks enemies rather than running past them. And by the way, the move gap even becomes 1 for several chapters once Serra promotes. Inui Sep 20 2007, 11:41 PM Quote: lol, all this ranting about durability, and then you suggest Lyn of all people? Haha, nice. Sadly, Fiora's isn't much better since she joins so underleveled. Lyn's durability issues aren't that bad. She has really good Evd and Florina gives her +1 Def/Res. It's not like you're not going to field her. She's forced upon you for many chapters, and has to be used in the final. Wtf? Yes, it is like I'm not going to field her. She's forced for a few chapters. Okay, yaye? What's the problem? Just keep her in the back, and she won't get attacked. And half of them are defend chapters. Her avoid is not good. Her affinity is wind, and Kent is the only support she's getting that gives even half avoid. That's an auto-phail in avoid. The only time her avoid is good is against axes. Quote: Quote: Lucius wants Serra way more than Priscilla, and Priscilla doesn't want Lucius either. What's Lucius's problem? Durability. What's Serra's affinity? Full defense. Priscilla's? critavo, lulz "Lucius is often not even used since he's so bleh."? He's only not getting used if you don't like units with low durability, in which case Lyn and Fiora definitely aren't getting used. Lucius has less def than them, but he's getting +5 def from his supports while the other two get +2 at best, closing the gap, and then he almost never takes counters, and he's immune to magic and doesn't have a weakness to bows or an inability to use terrain. Lyn: Level 15/0: 25.8 HP, 4.2 Def, 47.5 Evd Lucius: Level 15/0: 24.6 HP, 2.2 Def, 34 Evd At even levels, Lyn is crushing Lucius in durability. And Lyn has a level lead and a support lead. C Florina before Lucius even joins, and then that finishes quickly, and Kent started building. Too bad C Florina gives her no durability. Lucius is getting defensive bonuses faster than Lyn is. Lyn crushing in durability? She has a 2 def lead which is actually 0-1 when you factor in supports, and that's it. The avoid is laughably unreliable, so it's nearly worthless. It helps against Steel Axes, and that's it. And on the flipside, her defense drops by 1 vs lances. Now on to Lucius's advantages that you conveniently neglected to include: A 10 res lead giving him a massive win vs magic, and not taking counterattacks, which gives him a clear win in durabiliy. Lyn can only take 1-2 hits without dying in the first place, and then one of those goes away from the counterattack. That's pretty phail. Lucius beats Lyn in durability. And that's not even Lyn's only problem. Her other problem is that she doesn't promote until 28x (or you make Eliwood not promote until 28x, which is just as phail), making her crappiness level increase by a gigantic margin once your units start promoting. Lucius will have a 3 def lead in addition to his wtfmassive 17 or something res lead, and Lyn will still be eating counters, and she won't even have an avoid lead at all. And the move gap between Lyn and her supporters is 3. Massive phail. And Lucius beats her in other areas, of course, like having staves. Quote: And since we're raping our Lyn's mode ranks or something, give her the Angelic Robe before Lucius even exists. ggnore I don't think you thought your cunning plan all the way through. First of all, Lucius can use that item as well. You get it near the end of chapter 6, and Lucius joins at the very start of ch 7. Additonally, using that means not S-ing funds and therefore not getting a White Gem in ch 16, so lol @ at that. Quote: Fiora, bleh. I don't like her much. bleh Quote: Quote: No, Erk does not want Pent a lot more, or even more at all. Support with Serra > one with Pent. His Serra support is slow, but it also starts 15-16 chapters earlier. C Serra happens way way before C Pent, and the Bs are pretty close. And Serra gives better bonuses as well. Crit >> hit. This leaves Pent, an otherwise very impressive unit, without any supports unless you actually field Louise and/or Canas. Hawkeye's okay, but the bonuses are really bad. So, Serra taking the support from Erk hurts Pent, which isn't good. Erk isn't struggling even slightly without having Serra since he easily gets Priscilla, so it's not like you're hurting Erk by waiting for Pent. C Serra isn't making him jump a tier. The bonuses are barely different. It's 5 Crit and 5 Hit vs 10 Crit, which isn't all that different. What the hell? You're saying that Erk's Priscilla support gives him all the durability and crit he needs? So his 28 hp, 6-7 def, 12 res, and 46 avo at 18/0 makes him invincible or near-invincible? ... "C Serra isn't making him jump a tier." What's your point? Something doesn't need to be a tier of difference to be better. 5 crit is +5 crit. Better is better, period. The hit is worthless. Don't pretend that it matters. Erk already has over 9000 hit. Pent may be worse if he's even used at all, but Erk is also better. And then if Serra and Erk just get C, Erk is still better, but Pent doesn't take a hit until late, so here Erk/Pent is actually better off. Quote: Quote: Hahaha. Wow. Okay, first, I see Kent is level 10, which he isn't getting to unless you sat there and Lundgren abused or something while getting Nils to lv 7. Otherwise he'd be level 8-9. Maybe if you used Wil, Rath, and the other bleh units or something. My Sain and Kent are always at least level 10 without Lundgren abusing at all, and Experience is S'd anyways. Don't use Wil, Rath, or Wallace, and the rest of the combat units reach level 7 if you distribute exp evenly. Do +1-2 for Kent and Sain and -1-2 for two others, and that's level 8-9 for Kent and Sain. Quote: Quote: Next, Serra is getting way more than "a couple of levels" in Lyn mode. Without Lundgren abuse, if you're S-ing LHM, she can get to level 9 by the end of it. With Lundgren abuse, she'll reach at least level 11, possibly 12. If that seems high to you, realize that she's getting two heals on turns that Nils refreshes her, which is going to be almost every time since there's rarely ever a need to refresh an attacker: enemy density is so low in LHM that you have way more than enough units to kill all the ones in range every turn and usually even still have units left over who have nothing to attack, so refreshing an attacker would be pointless. You get nothing out of it. Whereas refreshing your healer gets you more exp. It helps Serra without negative effects on anyone else. There may be a turn or two in chapters 8 and/or 9 that refreshing an attacker would help, but that's it. Now, since you apparently got Nils to lv 7, Serra would be lv 11-12 when she rejoins in ch 12, and lv 14-15 by the time Kent joins. Wtf is she healing, dude? She can't heal HP every single turn. I've never had Serra pass level 7 without Lundgren abuse. What kind of question is that? She's healing player units, obviously. Quote: And if you're Lundgren abusing, Kent is also going to be higher than level 10. Hell, since you're going all the way, why not promote him? If you abuse, you already wrecked Tactics. So, if you want to Lundgren abuse, we'll make Kent a Level 1 Paladin or something. Sounds fine? Now you're making the game take an extra year and a half, which is massive phail already. And you lose the S in funds, so you don't get a White Gem in ch 16. And Sain could do this as well, so even if you do this, Kent is only promoting half the time. And then, when Kent rejoins, he's eating the exp rank. 20/1 in ch 16 or 20/1 in ch 17x Serra you could have on a bit higher level so that she reaches 20 and promotes not much later, in ch 18, and actually still is good for the exp rank and takes way way less extra time (takes about 2-3 times as long to get Serra there as opposed to about 10 times as long to get Kent there) abusing and doesn't kill my White Gem. They're both raep and one-round everything and have good durability, but Serra also has staves. And Serra can actually gain a decent amount of exp, so she gets a level lead. So, while it really doesn't matter due to this way suxxing massively, Serra wins this way, too. Quote: Quote: Serra promotes well before Kent does, and then she's gaining the same exp from combat but also gains exp from staves, so her level lead increases. Then Kent also has problems with promoting. There are hardly any Knight Crests. Oswin gets the first one, of course, and then the one of Kent/Sain/Lowen gets the second one at the end of chapter 22. Then the second Cavalier can't promote until you get the Earth Seal in ch 24. And the third Cavalier pretty much can't promote at all...Do you even get a third Knight Crest? You just have to wait for the second Earth Seal, right before 28x. Even if he had no promotion issues, Serra would be about 20/7 by the time he promotes, but then his promotion is held back, so Serra will be like 20/9 by the time Kent promotes. Then class exp bonus + staves keeps that level lead. Oh, no no no, we're Lundgren abusing, right? Kent is a Level 1 Paladin in Chapter 16. If we're not Lundgren abusing, then the levels I posed initially will be used. Your choice. You have two options: Get 19xx or don't. The spend a year abusing after already getting Nils to 7 isn't an option. Well, it could be, but it's already phail. Spending a year boss abusing is as bad as having to spend a year strategizing because of your units phailing at life. It's worse, actually, because it's b0ring as well. Anyway, get 19xx, and it's as I said. Don't, and just reduce their levels by about 2; there's not much difference...just that Serra gets you 200 more +exp rank Quote: Kent would at least be promoting second, so whatever. What? No he wouldn't. Unless you mean second among the cavaliers on average, but even that doesn't reflect the situation. 23, 24-25, and 28x. The average of those is 25-26. Ohsnap; I was generous to Kent. Quote: Quote: No, Serra has enough hp/def to usually take 2 hits and still be alive. Basically, her durability is like Eliwood's would be if he always had WTA. And.. only healer until Priscilla joins = w1n. Kent has nothing like this. She dies in two hits without Lundgren abuse, and dies in three with it. Kent dies in a lot of hits without Lundgren abuse, and can't die with it. Uh? Where are you getting your numbers? Well, without Lundgren abuse, Kent'll be about lv 11 by Pirate Ship. 7.5 def, 3.5 res, 28.5 hp, 27.0 avo. Archers and Iron Lance Pegs (~15 atk) kill him in 4 hits. Mercs and Steel Lance Pegs (~17-18 atk) kill him in 3 hits. Shamans (~14-17 atk) kill him in 3. Serra will be about lv 15. 4.1 def, 12.7 res, 24.0 hp, 41.6 avo. Archers and Iron Pegs kill in 3. Mercs and Steel Pegs kill in 2. Shamans kill in ~9. Like I said, Kent's durability doesn't even beat hers here. With all those Shamans, and then add in the fact that he often has to take counters, and it's obvious that he doesn't win durability. In other chapters, there aren't as many magic users, so Serra doesn't get that advantage, but there are also more forests, so her advantage in avoid matters a bit more. With Lundgren abuse, or getting 19xx, Kent = 13 . . 8.0 def, 4.0 res, 30.2 hp, 29.2 avo. 5 from Archers/IronPegs; 3-4 from Mercs/SteelPegs; 3 from Shamans Serra = 17 . . 4.4 def, 13.8 res, 25.0 hp, 44.4 avo. 3 from Archers/IronPegs; 2 from Mercs/SteelPegs; ~15 from Shamans Quote: That's fine. Kent is one of your best fighters, which makes up for that, since there's tons more fighting to do than healing. lol no, only healer >>>>>>>>>>>> anything Kent has One of your best fighters? Yeah, one of about 10 of your best fighters. Hector, Sain, Lowen, Erk, Matthew, Dorcas, and Oswin are about on his level, and Guy and Marcus are clearly better. Being one of only two healers aleady beats this without even touching either of her advantages of being the only healer for a few chapters or being raep for the exp rank. Sry, Serra is tons more useful than Kent. And then there's the fact that Serra is helping out without cutting into anyone else's exp, like Kent is against every other combat unit since there's a limited number of enemies to gain exp from. Quote: Quote: Kent only helps to better tactics. What I mean by that is that you can beat chapters just as fast without Kent. You cannot, however, get as much exp without Serra. It's an assured and rather large boost that you can't get otherwise. Serra's advantage >>> Kent's And not only that, but also, higher exp rank lets you use more of the tactics rank god that is Marcus, so this can go towards either rank. Serra wins even more. Kent doesn't just better Tactics. He rapes enemies, so he betters Combat. He kills things before they can do anything and can protect and rescue people, so he helps Survival. He costs a lot less than Serra and can use iron weapons almost all the time and still crush everything, so he's cheap and better for Funds. Yeah, she's good for Experience and lets you use Marcus more, but Priscilla also does this, and later joining units like Heath and Nino help out a lot. And all of your late-promoting Lords, especially Hector. It's not exactly like Serra alone lets Marcus be used more. What a tiny advantage... No, Kent can only help to maybe better any of the ranks because he's never the best at anything, and there's nothing that's Kent-specific. Ttactics, yes, he can help with this rank. And healing units so they can actually move forward without getting raepd also helps tactics. No advantage for Kent here. Combat? Wtf? Enough with the BS. You know perfectly well that combat rank in this game is a joke; you've even said it before yourself. You can 2-round half the enemies and 3-round the other half and never 1-round anything and still S combat. lol @ only needing 40% wins to S. Survival? Healing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rescuing for keeping units alive. And no, Kent can't regularly one-round things, killing them "before they can do anything", until after Serra promotes and can do the same. Serra easily wins this rank. Funds? If Kent uses Killer 30% of the time and Iron 70%... Killer Ln 30%, Iron Ln 70% = avg 23.6 per use Shine 30%, Lightning 70% = avg 21.6 per use o snap; he's moar expensive. Let's try... Killer Ln 26%, Iron Ln 74% = avg 21.52 per use Exp? Serra obviously >>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Quote: Quote: No, Serra's mobility is not terrible. She just has normal move rather than above average. She has more than enough move to keep up with the group. Compared to Priscilla, she usually actually has more mobility. Sure Priscilla can move farther, but that's not worth anything unless she can safely do so, and Serra's durability trounces Priscilla's. For Chapter 17, she's terrible. You have to rush. You have to stop some gay thieves and save those soldiers. Kent, Sain, Florina, Marcus, and Priscilla ditch everyone. Serra just follows along with nothing to do, so she's no benefit here. Priscilla is safe after Marcus, Sain, and Kent kill everything. And the big corridor is only two spaces, and there are three frontliners to block it off. Serra's ditched. No, you don't have to rush. Hector is the one who has to sieze, and those soldiers barely even make it out of their room by time you seize the throne with your party moving along at Hector-speed. No, you won't reach the thief before he gets the Silver Sword, but you can reach him once he takes the Knight Crest, and killing him then is better because Knight Crest >>>>>>>>>> Silver Sword, and if you kill him once he gets the Silver Sword, to get the Knight Crest, you have to wait for Matthew to finish with the chests at the bottom and come all the way up to the top and open that chest before you can sieze, so you actually hurt tactics as well as losing combat exp and hurting the exp rank from Marcus killing so many of the enemies in order to rush, so that's phail. Quote: Quote: On the contrary, Serra is one of the first to be fielded. First on the list are Florina, the healers, and a fast sworduser who can one-round the pirates, like Guy or Raven. Kent, however, is indeed unlikely to be fielded as he doesn't fit into any of the roles. Kent has more offense than Raven at this point, though. And if you Lundgren abused, he's like...a level 2 Paladin, and the best unit in the game. Raven: Level 6: 9.5 Atk, 14.45 Atk Spd, 8 Con Kent: Level 13: 11.8 Atk, 12.4 Atk Spd, 9 Con Steel Sword narrows the Spd loss, and Kent doubles those pirates anyways. Kent has moar Atk, too. Guy is better, though. Lundgren-abused Kent is 12-13, so KENT'S stats are right except Kent has 1 less atk than that. He doesn't have C Sain yet. 17 turns is fast, yes, but 2 chapters isn't going to do it; chs 16 and 17 are not long chapters. Getting it that fast either means being adjancent pretty much every turn, which is extremely impractical and would make Kent or Sain's usefulness suck, or it means tactics rank raep. And you need 13 AS to double all the pirates, not 12. non-Lundgren-abused Kent is 11 and phails. Raven's stats, however, are quite wrong. lv 6 Raven has 10.6 str and 15.0 spd. Quote: Why is Florina fielded? Lances-only against all of those pirates? And the bows around? Those villages aren't exactly getting raided, dude. for getting the houses that you can't reach otherwise Quote: And Priscilla is better than Serra and needs the levels more, so she's doing the healing, not Serra. They're both doing the healing, nub. You have 2 groups. And no, Priscilla is not better than Serra. And "needs the levels more"? What kind of logic is that? Who cares? And Dorcas needs the speedwings more. O noz. Quote: Quote: Haha. Serra >> Priscilla here because she actually has hp/def and doesn't die in two hits. She's also nearly immune to the Shamans while Priscilla's res isn't that high: she usually dies in two hits even if one is from a Shaman. Even from just Shamans, 2 Nosferatus or 3 Fluxes is enough to b7 Priscilla. In addition to hp and def, Serra also has avoid so that she can dodge and not have to waste a turn getting healed. But Priscilla has that brief conversation before the chapter starts, which makes her w1n. In all seriousness, Priscilla isn't too worse off because she can run away and move more. Serra can get attacked without being able to run away. No, Priscilla cannot run away. This is FE7, not FE4/9. She can't move after she heals. She's stuck there. Serra is easily much better than Priscilla here. Quote: Anyways, Priscilla vs Serra isn't all that important. Priscilla is the better unit overall and yields a better pay-off when used. If you want to argue against this, you can; good luck. Serra is better, as I've been showing, but it's pointless. Using both is best. Quote: Kent is awesome in this chapter because he can go anywhere he wants, rape the Pegs, tank the Mercs, and easily kill anything on the map. He can also move from one side of the ship to the other easily. Wtf? No, he can't. Dying in 3 hits is ridiculously far from invincible. Was that a joke? He can't "kill anything on the map" either. He doesn't double the Mercs, the only things anyone has any trouble killing. Quote: What this "hp/def" that Serra has? She has pretty bad HP/Def for the whole game. Beating Priscilla in them doesn't suddenly make her have HP/Def. see above durability comparison done for this chapter Quote: Quote: Kent's durability doesn't even beat Serra's here because of all the Shamans. He can take an extra hit or sometimes two from physical attackers, but he gets wtfpwned by the Shamans, and he takes counters often, and he has less avo. Also, the Mercs can crit Kent since he hasn't gotten C Sain yet. He might get it later in the chapter, but he doesn't have that critavo until then. All of this means nothing unless you make Kent go to the far left, which is pretty stupid. He can rape the other areas, especially the far right. Serra is raped in those areas since Mercs and Myrms have Hit. Quote: Uh, C Sain is only 17 turns. He gets that in Chapter 17, or in 17x at the latest. He's going to have it for 18 all the time. And C Lyn is likely, too. That's only 21 turns. No, he might have it several turns into ch 18, but that's the earliest. Or were you support abusing or something? oki, lulz; tactics raep Lyn isn't happening at all, and she's definitely not being fielded in ch 18. If she attacks anything that's not an archer, the counterattack usually leaves her able to die in one hit. Quote: Quote: 19 has lots of forests, so Serra's avo is a bigger factor. The 60-70 avo she'll have when standing on one starts to become actually reliable. Her Evd isn't that high unless you Lundgren abused. And if you did that, Kent is getting cling'd and shit, lol. 63.0 avo on a forest without 19xx. 65.8 with Quote: Quote: Serra promotes soon after 19, so Kent gets crxsh'd then. Only if you Lundgren abused, which means Kent is promoted in 16. Serra = lv 17 starting 19x if you're not getting 19xx. lv 19 if you are Quote: Quote: Oh yeah, and once Serra promotes, her durability starts beating Kent's, and it stays that way for the rest of the gaem. She wins massively in avoid, having significantly more even when Kent has WTA, she wtfraeps him in res, and only loses def by about 2. Beats Kent in durability? Prove it. Kent has tons more HP and DEF and great Evd too. I can't possibly see Serra winning in any situation you mentioned beyond the stuff with the Shamans, and then Kent has way more HP for those anyways. She's more durable in Cog of Destiny, and that's about it. Kent, 17/0, B Sain: 38.6 avo, 33.6 hp, 10.0 def, 6.0 res, 15.2 critavo Serra, 20/1, C Lucius, C Sain: 53.6 avo, 29.5 hp, 7.8 def, 18.4 res, 24.4 critavo 12 res, 15 avo, 9 critavo >> 2 def, 4 hp 20/1 Kent, A Sain: 45.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 12.7 def, 7.8 res, 20.8 critavo 20/9 Serra, C Erk, B Lucius, B Sain: 76.8 avo, 33.5 hp, 12.0 def, 25.8 res, 42.2 critavo 20/1 Kent, A Sain, B Fiora: 50.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 13.7 def, 8.8 res, 30.8 critavo too much raep for words
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Inui vs Reikken · Debates