Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui
+Ema Skye	Sep 30 2007, 12:48 AM
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,958 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Garret is while Cecilia is :feez:, so that's already a win for him. Why even bother continuing this debaet? Well, free raep against the best debaeter ftw? I guess so. Quote: Cecilia joins two and part of a third chapters before Garret, and she gains exp faster than a level 15 unit even though she's 20/1. Same kill exp as a 15/0, plus she has staves. Mathematically, yes. In the actual game, no. You see, when Cecilia joins you, she's nearly capped in her Suck stat, which will be abbreviated to SUK to fit in with the other abbreviations from now on. So, her SUK stat is too high for her to do anything. She's crippled in the desert, and can't even hit things properly. She starts off with 104 Hit with Aircalibur, and the Mercs in the desert have 46 Evd according to Sentenal's enemy samples. That leaves Cecilia with 58 Hit, lol. And the suck doesn't stop there. Cecilia only does 16 damage once with 0 Crit to its 35 HP if she even hits. The Merc can do 14 x 2 damage to her, and has 77 Hit. Omg, massive raep against a level 16 unpromoted unit. How is she even making any use of this EXP bonus? Answer: She's not. The Killing Edge Hero in this chapter does 18 x 2 damage, which one-rounds Cecilia, and he has 85 Hit and 29 Crit. That's utter rape. Let's take something totally crappy, the worst possible enemy on the entire map, a Hand Axe!Brigand. Cecilia does 16 damage once to its 40 HP and has 77 Hit. The Brigand hits back once for 16 damage as well to Cecilia's 30 HP, and lucky for her, the Brigand only has 33 Hit on her. However, these guys swarm, only two need to hit in order for her to die. The Wyvern Lord brings her down to 1 HP, and she can't even one-round it due to 0 Crit. Even with boosted Aircalibur damage, she won't even outdamage someone that doubles it. The Mamkutes and Rose OHKO her, and Maggie has a high chance of a OHKO thanks to his huge Crit. Things don't really get much better from here. In 14x, she has to fight the same things except the average enemy level went up by about 1, and Ohtz can one-round her with Bolting. She's killed in two hits by everything, and the things that don't kill her in two hits can double her. There are also Druids that wtfraep her terribly in this chapter. In 15, things still aren't looking better. The Mercs still double her, she still has poor Hit, and things destroy her in two hits. The Valks also double her, and she doesn't do anything to them. So, basically, she's sucking massively at fighting, and the EXP boost only applies to EXP gained in combat, IIRC, so her bonus doesn't matter. She can't fight. While Cecilia is adding massive SUK to your party, Garret is off looting villages and raping women or something else evil and manly for fun. Then, Garret joins you halfway through Chapter 15, and his HM boosts make him pretty strong. That renders this statement: Quote: She's level 5 by the time Garret joins, and she's still gaining exp faster than him, so her level lead will increase moar, and she's obviously better at exp rank. clearly false. Cecilia will be at level 3 if she's your primary healer or something, but Saul, Ellen, and Clarine are already there, and are way better than her. Later on, Lugh promotes, and possibly Ray and Hugh, and then Niime is a decent filler, etc. She's even failing at this healing business. Quote: NOW supprtz Okay, let's see if they make up for Garret's astronomical stat leads. Quote: Garrrret supports Lalum, Gonzales, and Geese. He's Lalum's worst support by far, so lol @ that Gonzales has Echidna and Treck, and they both start way earlier, so he'd rather support one of them. Geese has Echidna and Lalum, and they also both start way earlier, so he would also rather support one of them. He may be able to snag a C or two, or if he's lucky, a B with Gonzales, but that's it, and that B doesn't appear until late. Yeah, no Lalum most of the time indeed. If Treck doesn't die before he's recruited, sure. Or if he's fielded at all. He's not really that good. He has doubling issues and his durability isn't not top-notch thanks to sucky RES and the worst defensive support in the game. If Geese is used, then maybe, but you forget that Echidna and Lalum already have other people. Echidna is going to score A Lalum/B Gonzales. That's almost a given. That means Geese is still free if he's used. Looks like A Geese/B Gonzales is pretty reasonable for the endgame. The supports are slow, but he'll have double C's by the time Sacae/Ilia starts (Chapter 18 is what I mean). Quote: Cecilia supports Percival, Saul, and Roy. Percival is hurting for supports, so he wants this one for sure. Ditto on Saul, except to an even greater degree. Roy has a B with Alan and Lance easy, but that leaves a C open. She's easily getting full supports, and her supports also help her supporters moar. Well, she can get Percival sometimes, but there are a few problems with that. Percival likes to rush off and rape and abuse his insanely high stats, while Cecilia gets killed by everything. That's a bit of a problem. Also, Percival has other options. There may be movement issues with Douglas, but he offers better bonuses(full Crit > partial Atk), and Douglas can survive the enemy phase without camping behind everyone. If you take the route without Echidna, then not only are Gonzales and Geese completely free for Garret, but Elphin joins instead, and that's a fast support for Percival. Klein, a unit better at both living and fighting than Cecilia, offers Percival another speedy support with full Evd and full Hit, which are the best possibly bonuses for Percival besides Crit. Lalum also supports him, and Dorothy wouldn't mind him if she's used, and she gives Percival full Evd, full Crit, and full Hit, which is his best support bonus-wise. Even Percival doesn't look very likely for her. Saul is indeed hurting pretty badly, however, not badly enough that Cecilia instantly gets him. Saul can be supporting Dorothy at an A by the time Cecilia even joins, and then Ellen is also there for him. Igrene, who's basically like Klein with better bases but worse supports, also supports Saul without being frail as glass like Cecilia and she can actually fight things. Roy's looking unlikely to me, too. He can C the following units before Cecilia even exists: Lilina, Marcus, Wolt, Sue, Thany, Lalum. He can C the following units after Cecilia joins: Sophia, Cecilia. In order for Cecilia to even have a chance at that C, Lilina, Wolt, Sue, and Thany have to all not be fielded. In addition to that, Marcus makes for a good earlygame and midgame C support, and Marcus could even be used in the longrun without losing much to Cecilia; Cecilia isn't even faster than Marcus, and Marcus is more durable. Sophia has a capped SUK stat from the very start, so that's a very likely one at all. Lalum usually doesn't want Roy. So, Cecilia isn't exactly winning supports by as much as you say, if at all. Quote: In defense, Garret wins massively in hp, and Cecilia wins massively in res. The HP win is certainly more significant. Garret is clearly winning against all things that use melee, and the HP matters more against magic users unless they're getting swarmed by them. If Garret has 55 HP and Cecilia has 32 HP, and a mage with something like 24 Atk hits them both, Garret ends up with 36 HP and Cecilia ends up with 22 HP. Next round reduces Garret to 17, and then 0. Cecilia then goes to 12 HP, and then 2. Cecilia's huge RES lead doesn't matter at all on the first hit, Garret still wins on the second, and then Cecilia wins on the third. Quote: Garret starts out winning by a bit in def, but Cecilia passes him with a higher growth, higher exp gain, and more from supports, so they're pretty even there. No. I've addressed supports already, so that's not really making her win. And then this nonexistant big level lead you speak of doesn't exist. Garret starts with 10 DEF, she starts with 7 DEF. Garret's growth is worse, but it's nowhere near worse enough for Cecilia to even come close to winning in raw stats, and then Garret still gets +1 from supports eventually. Quote: They start out with about the same avo, but Cecilia quickly starts owning him since her supports are faster, fuller, and give full avoid. Garret gets like +5, while Cecilia gets +25. Cecilia doesn't get full supports just like that, so whatever. Garret will end up getting +12 eventually, but it's indeed +5-7 for most of the game. Against the hordes of lance users in the Ilia route and the Wyverns of Bern, Garret is getting +10 to close that gap anyways, and then he's still winning HP massively and DEF by a bit, so he's more durable. It's also harder for enemies to double him. 10 SPD with 25% growth vs 11.2 SPD with a 25% growth makes Garret teh winnar in Atk Spd easily. Consistent 1.2 lead at the same levels. Quote: Garret wins offense with higher atk and crit but less hit, and Cecilia has staves. Less Hit? Hmm. Cecilia: 20/8 w/ C Roy/C Douglas(Thunder/Elfire) Atk: 20.4/22.4 Hit: 108.3/103.3 Crit: 15/10 Atk Spd: 11.8 Garret: 20/5 w/ C Gonzales(Iron/Killer/Hand) Atk: 30.3/33.3/29.3 Hit: 107.1/107.1/92.1 Crit: 43/73/43 Atk Spd: 12.2 What the hell? Cecilia's only winning Hit with Thunder. What, you want Fire? Then she has no Atk. Garret crushes her in Atk and Crit and has stuff like Halberd/Hammer/Swordreaver/Killer Axe. Garret is also slightly faster even when Cecilia has a level lead. Garret utterly crushes her offense. Staves? Lol. She has them, but doesn't get to use them much at all, as I said. Quote: exp rank + supports + defense + staves > offense You put "defense" on the wrong side, and supports is even or Cecilia wins slightly. "Offense" means he's winning Combat easily, too. Another minor advantage for Garret is that he's cheaper. Costs Per Use Iron: 6 Steel: 12 Hand: 15 Devil: 45 Halberd: 45 Hammer: 40 Reaver: 140 Killer: 50 Brave: 75 Silver: 50 Tomahawk: 200 Fire: 14 Thunder: 20 Elfire: 40 Aircalibur: 55 Fimbulvetr: 260 Bolting: 600 Looks like Garret can swap between stuff like Iron and Killer freely and still cost loss than Cecilia unless she's only using Fire. However, Fire has such terrible Mt that her offense plummets into nothingness. She doesn't have high Mag or a Crit boost to make up for it. Hell, she doesn't even have the ability to double to give her some offense. Staves cost moneyz too, and the high rank ones are very expensive. Did you pick a terrible unit out of pity or something? I'm not that bad.
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