Viewing Single Post From: Paperblade vs Mekkah

Viewing Single Post From: Paperblade vs Mekkah
Mekkah	Sep 30 2007, 09:59 AM
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Quote: Oh? Yeah. Quote: Azel has 3 less Move and no durability. They're beating him up, not Fin. Cuan's doubling is ridiculously unreliable. Anyway. Existing > Not Existing. It's not like Beo does much better in 4-5. Azel still has more offense than Fin which was my point. Cuan is still one-rounding more than Fin - 20% of the time as opposed to not at all. Beowulf does great in chapter 4 and 5, at least he is helping more than Fin is helping in prologue and 1, because he has options to make him good whereas Fin is being babied. Quote: What, Fin's not one rounding in Prologue and 1? Damn... that sounds like... Everyone who isn't Sigurd, Ayra, and Jamka. 2 of which are Top Tier. And one of which is only in like the last quarter of 1. Oh noes. Not one-rounding wouldn't be such a crime, but Fin can only get EXP without getting beaten up by killing off something. At least Alec, Noish and Lex can weaken things without rolling over. Quote: Beo's AS advantage hardly matters when he has lower concrete durability anyway and his doubling advantage over the few units who are slower than Beo but faster than Fin isn't enough to put him ahead because Fin's Attack is so much higher and he has a 100% Continue, which >>>>> Duel. So 2 enemies, neither of which are very common and that Beowolf is going to be worse off against ANYWAY, because if Beowolf is able to kill it in one round, Fin's doing it too and doing it better because of higher attack and getting his 2 attacks off without a counter, are unable to be one rounded by Fin. Meanwhile, Beo is using weak Swords against a bunch of high Defense enemies that he's hardly hurting at all. At least when Fin was sucking he hurt enemies, Beo's just being a pain. Also, Fin gets last hits because it's stupid to have him attack and eat a counter and then have say, Mideel attack to finish the enemy off, especially since Fin effects the Second Generation far more than anyone who isn't going to have a Child will. All I was showing Beowolf's AS advantage for was to show that Fin's WTA becomes hardly worth mentioning when Beowulf has some more avoid to close the gap. You claimed Fin was one-rounding anything except [list of enemies which does not include these cavaliers]. I claim Fin cannot one-round those either. There isn't more to it than that. So you concede that Fin was sucking. That's good. Beowulf does enough damage to finish off things anyways. Fin HAS to get last hits because it's really stupid to have him attack an axe user up straight when he's going to take a punch to the face nearly all the time, whereas EVERYONE else in your army has a way around this by either swords, ranged attack or just plain being durable enough. Also this is the first generation we're debating. Fin getting kills in Chapters 0 and 1 for preparing the second generation sounds a little bit early to me, you'll want to train up the rest too. Can't see what you're going at here. Quote: No, because +10 Avoid for ~2 chapters is outweighed by an easier EXP Rank because of Lakche and Skasaha leveling faster from Elite. +3 Strength is going to go nearly unnoticed in the First Gen, whereas it keeps Fin from being completely useless because of the Children in the Second Gen. It's not Lex/Ayra is difficult to get at all, their convo in 3 gives a massive boost, and Lex should be hanging back anyway once he gets to 30 as to not steal EXP. I don't get why you're quoting yourself since I already gave you the villages and I'm pro Lex/Ayra. Quote: There's no reason for Fin to hand in the Hero Lance quickly, because no one else is using it as effectively as him. Fury's Strength sucks so she's not going to be one rounding some enemies even WITH it, Noish lacks Pursuit and can't use it until promotion, same with Alec but he has Pursuit. Sigurd and Cuan have better weapons to use. I could understand Warping/Returning him to a Castle like halfway through Orgahill because Sigurd has to run from Silvail over to Orgahill, but there's no reason for him to sell it as soon as Chapter 3 begins. Fury can use the Hero Lance because EXP is a gay ass rank and it helps her offense, whereas Fin is still doing okay with Steel. Fury having good offense and Fin having good offense > Fury having bad offense and Fin having betterthangood offense. Fury can get rid of the Mage squad in the forests relatively quickly (no one else is prolly going to reach them before you seize Madino) and she can also give the Hero Lance some more kills by attacking pirates with it and thereby supporting Claude/Fury/Brigid. If she gets hit that's okay since Claude can Reserve. Quote: I gave Beowolf a much larger level advantage than he'd ever realistically have. Normally, Beo'd probably be sitting around 14-15 crying because Fin's kicking ass and taking names and he's hoping that Fin saves some for him (Of course, the only thing Fin leaves behind are the Magic Users that take off half of Beo's HP anyway). He's not gaining 10 levels in one chapter, especially considering how mediocre he is at combat. He's likely going to be around 15, which swings things considerably in Fin's favor, since the attack defense lead becomes more prominent and the avoid lead has shrunk. And again, there's no reason for Fin not to use the Hero Lance. He's the best wielder of it, simple as that. Beowulf being at lower level than Fin is obvious, yes. It doesn't matter much at this point since Fin is leaving. Chapter 3 goes in multiple directions. Beowulf can take the armors on any place on the map while Fin does something else. He doesn't need 10 levels from Chapter 2, he just needs enough levels to promote before Chapter 4. Everything else discussed before. Quote: I fail to understand why you'd heal him and then not move anyone to let him die, or why you'd not heal with ANOTHER healer, since Ethlin ain't gonna get bonus EXP for not healing... If Fin needs to be saved from dying every time that is a point against him. "I fail to see why you'd leave Nino to be killed". I don't get where the bonus EXP thing is coming from. Quote: It's a far better idea to let Fin use the Hero Lance to clear out Orgahill (or at least the bridge area). It's not like anyone else wants it right now... Hm, 12 Weight Lance or 3 Weight Sword against Axe Users? I think I'll take the -24 Avoid and -20 more from WTD over the -6 and +20 from WTA. Only that's stupid, you're losing 58 Avoid by using the Hero Lance over a sword here. Fin can't use anything else, there's no reason for him to not be using it now. Sure as hell you'd want to give some other units EXP so they can promote before Chapter 4. Fin has the second generation to do that anyway. Everything else seems to be a point against Fin?? Anyway Silver Blade Beowulf owns the shit out of these pirates. Quote: 100% Continue and Prayer >>> 40% Duel + ~35% Continue More like Hero Lance > Steel Sword. Quote: Pizarl moves last, so the only way this would happen is if there were already only a couple Pirates left, in which case why the hell is the test of their battle prowess a comparison of them versus Fin at his worst point in the entire First Gen? Let's throw Beo against those 4 Lance Knights and that General to the east of Agusty in Chapter 3 and see how well he fares. Fin's cockblocking enemies he sucks against, Beo's just dying. The worst point of Fin is when he's being babied or when he's not there at all, but sure if you want to declare this his worst point Anyway we were talking about this situation, and it seems Beowulf is better in this situation. Everything else seems to be rather lopsided: Fin sucks in Prologue and Ch1, Fin's doing better in Ch2 and part of Ch3 due to level lead, then leaves like a pussy while Beowulf is still fighting and killing. I suppose "at least when he's sucking he's doing damage" can be backfired on you here since Beowulf can use the Iron Cutter against them. And also hide in forests and shit. But hey this is only 5 enemies in total that Beowulf has little business against besides stealing a kill or something. Quote: Fin's cockblocking enemies he sucks against, Beo's just dying. Fin's got a chance of dying as well, like if he doesn't exactly have these averaged stats, or if Pizarl manages to kill him before his precious Prayer comes in. Quote: Yes, gogo 1 Res unit with mediocre Avoid against the army of Elwind users. Yes because the rest of your army has so much more RES and Beowulf isn't able to one-round the fuckers and your avoid cannot be boosted by forests at all and Fin is doing so much better. Quote: Why does Beo deserve the Wing Clipper over the myriad of other Sword Users? Fin was competing against like, one person for the Hero Lance and he was clearly better with it because he one rounded, liek, everything with it (probably most bosses too, but Big Shield is haet). Beo is competing against like... a third of your army. Against people that really want it too. Like Alec. And Noish. Alec needs some love, man. And Wind Mages have like... 45 Hit against him even on Forest. That's not very good odds. List of sword users: Ayra - One-rounds them with her Hero Sword. Alec - Can use it and is prolly Beo's main competition for it, but then again he does decent damage with lances. Ardan - Heh. Azel - Heh. Beowulf - He's good I hear. Dew - Hardly able to gain levels, not mounted, not doubling, therefore not good with Wing Clipper. Fury - Is busy saving villages. Holyn - Rapes the shitfuck out of them with a usual sword thanks to insane Skl and Moonlight Hit. And he's not mounted. Lachesis - Can use Lex' Hero Axe, as well as about any other weapon including all the bows. Noish - Doesn't double with it, so he completely relies on Charge to one-round them. Sigurd - Silver Sword. Enough said. Tiltyu - Heh. None of Beowulf's competition is able to double with the Wing Clipper AND gets there as quickly as he does, except Alec and Lachesis. Alec can do good damage with a lance and Lachesis does OHKOs with bows and still hurts with Hero Axe/whatever lanceoraxe, Beowulf does not have this. Alec with Clipper and Beowulf with whatever gives worse output than Alec with lance and Beowulf with Clipper, therefore Beowulf gets the Clipper. Paperblade Wait, wait, wait. Beowolf, the accurate, swift, mounted Sword User with the highest might Swords available is one rounding the almighty Pirates and their amazing -5 AS? You just totally blew my mind, dude. ?? Paperblade There are a few axe users though, but they're both at times when Beo's poor offense isn't enough, as we don't have time to dick around: Saving villages and saving the civilians. "Hey Beowulf's offense isn't enough to kill axe users and we don't have time to dick around HELP" "Beowulf's offense is enough [numbers]" "wow you just blew my mind" Quote: That's a 39.6% chance that neither activate, and then there's the chance that somebody else wants the Silver Blade because Beowolf doesn't have a monopoly on Swords. Who can use these blades and need them? Ayra and Holyn don't need them, Lachesis doesn't need them, Sigurd doesn't need them. That leaves Fury and a lot of people who can't use them due to weapon level. Fury can only use it if she's promoted at this point, which is hard to do since she comes at a low level and very late in Ch2, and weaken pirates with swords then kill with auto-Continue Hero Lance when they're weak enough. Beowulf doesn't have any noticable competition for these swords. You're also doing your maths wrong. Beowulf needs only one of his skills to activate to one-round said opponent. Beowulf attacks for a 3HKO. Continue activates 34% of the time here, 66% of the time it does not. Enemy counterattack. Beowulf attacks with Pursuit. Continue activates 34% of the time here, 66% of the time it does not. Game checks if Beowulf is going to CHAAAAARGE. 40% of the time he will, 60% of the time he will not. To not trigger Continue, Continue and Charge, the chance would be 66% * 66% * 60%. That makes a 26% chance of not one-rounding. Quote: We don't care about axe users. We already know he's good against them. It'd be like me going "Hai Mekkah, did you know that Fin one rounds the 40HP 10 Defense Sword Users without even getting attacked? AWESOMESAUCE FIN>BEO" That's all totally true, but it's irrelevant. Unmounted Axers are like the crappiest enemies in the game. Axefighters are like Swordfighters, only with no Pursuit and like 15 less AS, which sucks, because the only reason Swordfighters don't suck is because lots of people have trouble doubling them. We care about axe users because you said Beowulf wasn't good enough against them and I proved otherwise. They are enemies of FE4 Gen 1 that Beowulf owns and Fin does not, therefore it is relevant. I never contested Fin killing 40HP10DEF Swordfighters. Also the only thing axefighters and swordfighters have in common is that both of their names end in -fighters. I can't see what you're trying to pull here. Quote: There's a grand total of 15 Axe users in this chapter. Pamela's Pegasus Squad has 12 Pegasus Knights, +1 for her. That's 13 Lance using units right there that, most of which are going to be hitting because of either Slim Lance hit hax, or not being countered and thus being annoying as hell. Pamela goes for Thove castle because Andre told her to do so. Beowulf isn't "dicking around" at Thove, he's fighting Warriors at Silesia. If the Pegasi come towards Beowulf they have to face the rest of the group too, most of which have about as much trouble as he does, since as you said a large part of your army uses swords as well. But since Beowulf has the Wing Clipper he is doing as well as any other sword user if not better...or any other unit for that matter. Lex can WTA them but he's likely at 30 already and you don't want him to hog EXP. Bow users can't counterattack period unless you put them on the edge of Javelin range. Fury can counter with Javelin but lose avoid, or just do hit-and-run as she usually does. Quote: He's one rounding the weakest Wind Mages that we care about (the other is some Blizzard user that only Fury is going to be getting to without taking like 20 turns of running through the Mountains), and taking a nasty counter along with it because his Res Sucks. Way to ignore the Warriors but anyway, 34% of the time he will Continue against the Wind Mage and not take any damage at all. Sigurd, for example, will always have to face an Elwind since even with 24 Str (his L27+ average) he doesn't OHKO them. He is also one rounding the other Wind Mages in this chapter so whatever. Quote: They also have +20 Hit/Avoid from Lamia and 22 natural Avoid, for 44 Avoid against Beo's amazing 110 or so. 66 Hit. That's a 43% chance of missing once. With Continue and Duel his chances of not failing increases, but it's still hardly reliable, since he's relying on several unreliable variables in hopes that at least one doesn't mess up completely. Never mind the Sleep Sword. Thunder Mages have like 130 Hit and like 25 attack. Beo's being hit hard by them. If Beo gets hit once, Lamia could one round him since she's doubling (unless he's already 25+, unlikely) and has Continue. If you place Beowulf carefully as opposed to like, within Lamia's leadership range so every single of her mercs can attack him freely, that becomes 86 hit, a 73% chance of landing both hits. And that's with a 'Blade...with a Steel or Silver Sword he just won't miss at all. And THEN you still have Continue and Duel to count on. Thunder Mages are like the Wind Mages in this chapter, Beowulf has a chance of killing them with Continue before they even hit them unlike many of your other units. Lamia killing Beowulf? Heh. First off, you're a fool if you let Beowulf get doubled by her. He's mounted, so he gets to move after attacking, which also means that he gets to reselect his weapon equipment before enemy phase. He still has the Wing Clipper and Iron Cutter with him, and those weigh only 5, so he only needs 21 speed not to get doubled. Which he has a decent chance of having at L21, and averages easily at L22-L23. But of course, to really screw up Lamia we could just let Beowulf use a lighter 3 wt sword, which :gasp: makes Beowulf double Lamia! But why is Beowulf being pitted on his OWN against her entire squadron? You have Holsety Levin plus 78923789 other units that are going towards Zaxon castle. Beowulf is just a good help in taking them down but you're not sending him off on his own, are you? Quote: Fin only struggled because of Big Shield (and not wanting to eat a Knight Killer from Zain, that thing is enough to send any mounted unit running back). Even with it, he's easily two rounding pretty easily because of x4 attacks against most bosses and the pitiful defense of those he isn't (Clement). I think there's more that makes Fin struggle. - Elliot he 4x attacks indeed as long as he'd L7 or higher...oh wait he doesn't have Hero Lance yet. Hrhr. And the Silver Lance counter hurts. - Phillip he can double too, but for rather pitful damage if Cuan is still using Steel Lance as he should, and even if Fin is using Steel he's not doing all that much. - Boldo (guards Heirhein) he sucks against, he's not doubling him unless Fin has 16 Spd, and at L13 he averages 13.6 - Yay he can 4x attack the Duke Knight captain - He's absolutely not doing shit against MacBeth and his 23 Defense. - Augustry Duke Knight captain again...he doesn't one round the Augustry Paladin though! - McBeth he does okay against sort of, might miss a couple of times, eat a Thunder in return and not 4x attack because Clement has 3 AS (same as Boldo) - Zain is just ough - Shagaal he's not 4xing, generally not hurting that much due to Big Shield, throne evade, 15 Def etc. But yeah nice attempt at generalizing bosses. Quote: More like Beo is stealing everyone's swords just so he can be mediocre. At least Fin didn't hog all the Lances, he just wanted 1 of them that no one but Fury even wanted, and Fury sucks anyway. Beo's like, "Hay, even though we have like 6 other Sword users here, I'm gonna call dibs on this Wing Clipper and Silver Claymore, kthx. STEALS" while Fin is getting his Hero Lance stolen by that slut on a pegasus because Lances are more effective than Swords against axe users. I could repeat what I said already but then you would be repeating what you countered it with and that would be sorta useless so let's not do that. Quote: So. Out of Alec Beowolf Fury Holyn Lachesis Noish (Plus Ardan and Dew, but they suck) Beowolf has the Silver Claymore, Wing Clipper, AND the Iron Cutter for 2+ chapters? And you say I'm babying Fin? lolwut? You're handholding Fin in the first few chapters, yes. Beowulf just needs the weaponry, and he has rights to that weaponry because no one else who can use it as well as he can needs it. So basically what I said before except less detailed. Quote: Except when he gets OHKO'd by Thorhammer and you're like "Shit, dammit Beo, why couldn't you be like Fin and have left Sigurd to solo this?" Yeah what the shit is Beowulf doing in Thor Hammer range? Let Sigurd and Levin and whoever else is there that can take a hit stand in Reptor's range while Beowulf does hit-and-run then hides. Quote: Which totally compensates for his amazing 2 move in the sand/desert. Sigurd has the same movement range so there's no reason to hurry up. If there's no Meteor thanks to Fury and Sylvia then who gives a damn? Quote: Solo Beowolf vs. 13 Dragon Riders with Knight Killers, plus a Dragon Knight with 3 leadership stars a Hero Lance. Beo has 43 Avoid, to 73 from Phinora, to 53 from WTD. The Knight Killer has 60 Hit. +24 hit from Skill. 31 Hit. What's that, and he's being 2HKO'd? And this is assuming that the boss isn't in range to give Leadership? He has a 0.8% chance of dodging every attack. His chance of dodging just 12 in a row is 1.1%. By the way, the Hero Lance dude has 79 Hit on him and 2 hits is about as strong as a Knight Killer attack. Ok, so Beowulf is not solo-ing them that easily. Quote: Or I can just let Levin solo it all and not have to worry about stuff like "Is Beo gonna get raped by Thorhammer?" That sounds like a great way to nuke your EXP rank. How about we actually bring other units there to get kills, as opposed to Levin who has such high evasion that the enemies don't target him? Then you have two possible scenarios. 1) They cockblock all around Levin and nothing happens at all during enemy phase. 2) They cockblack all around Levin and Reptor starts fighting him, then Levin kills Reptor and everything disappears and you missed out on a bunch of EXP. Quote: Unless you get OHKO'd. By Thorhammer. Because you were stupid and brought your amazing 5 Res Forest Knight to fight Reptor. Yes, I'm going to keep Beowulf in the range of an enemy unit with only 5 movement (though 1-2 range) when I could let him autocrit an Armorknight/General or nuke a Sniper then run behind the frontlines again. That sounds like a brilliant way to play a strategy RPG. Quote: Fin's weapons are much stronger, 100% Continue > unreliable Continue + Duel. Beo's hogging all the swords. Fun Fact: Iron Lance > Steel Sword in Might. By 2. And Fin is using Hero. Which has auto-Continue. GG? Beo's crits do more damage than a regular Fin hit so it's not that big of a gap. Swordshogging has been handled. Quote: The number of lance users FAR exceeds the number of Axe Users, and the Lancers are far more mobile and are more likely to get Leadership. In Chapter 5 he's forced to use the ONLY IRON CUTTER to be good, and in doing so makes several other units with less weapon choice useless. Hm? Chapter 4 has more lancers because of the Pegasi, but half of those (Pamela's squad) he won't face. You can lure and kill a lot of pegasi out of leadership anyway, it's such a small difference. At least Beowulf is good in Ch5, and the only other person the Iron Cutter would make a significant difference on is Alec. Every other worthwhile sword user has their own ways of fucking up armors. Beowulf does it better than Alec thanks to Continue and Charge, so I don't see why Alec would get it. Quote: I like how you make it sound like Fin relying on the Hero Lance is a bad thing while Beo is using it for 2+ chapters while also using the Silver Claymore. PROTIP: Needing 3 one of a kind weapons to have a good offense is not good. He's not really hurting anyone on your team taking them. He's the best user for them because the ones that would use it "better" all don't need it and the ones that are worse are just going to suck at using it. So Beowulf has these things available to him, and that's a good thing. Quote: Prologue: Fin sucks at durability and but great at offense if you don't mind that you have to severely weaken something for him if you don't want him to take a counterattack. Chapter 1: Fin sucks less at durability and got even better at offense but still has the same issues as above Chapter 2: Fin's durability is now getting awesome and his offense becomes godly because of the Hero Lance, which only Fury wants, but Fury sucks because her Strength blows (one great unit and one below average one >>> 2 slightly above average ones). Beo joins but is pretty crappy because his Attack is low and his skills unreliable. yes Fin does good against generic enemies in the second half of chapter 2 Chapter 3: Fin continues to kick ass and Beo continues to be a knight-in-training by using Iron Cutter against the numerous Armors in this chapter and having WTA over the pirates including the ones that are pilfering villages Chapter 4: Fin doesn't exist, Beowolf has three great swords to use now that no one else needs except those that are extremely desperate and still aren't anything worth looking at with them Chapter 5: See Chapter 4 except with more axe users for WTA So Beo is totally reliant on his weapon, whereas Fin is still good with just the Steel Lance. Hero Lance Fin one rounds or brutally maims everything. Beo is gonna be bad if he has the wrong weapon out. Hero Lance Fin is good indeed, but that glory lasts for a relatively short time when you take into account that Fin isn't anything special the first two and a half chapters (and that's putting it in a kind way), and doesn't exist for the last two ones. "if beo has wrong weapun he will suck!?!" Why would you ever give him the wrong weapon? Enemies come in packs of units where you use the same weapon against all the freaking time. Group of pegasi? Wing Clipper. Group of armors? Iron Cutter. Group of just about anything else? Silver Blade. Quote: First Gen. I said First Gen. And I say they're still nothing to fawn over. He has no Holy Blood, and average-wise it's not like he's miles above other great units such as Jamka. Quote: Way to take things out of context. We call that loyalty, something that Beowolf obviously lacks. Yes because Beowulf is the one who flees the army he fought with ever since the prologue to return to the safe Lenster. Quote: Let me reword this. Beowolf gets 0 woman (not paired) or 1 (paired). Fin gets 1 woman (not paired or paired with Lachesis) or 2 (paired with someone who isn't Lachesis, as Fin/Lachesis is canon, it's just now he might have some other kids running around fighting resurrected dark gods). 2 > 1 1 = 1 1 > 0 Fin either wins or ties no matter how you slice it. We don't know how many random women they were with off screen, but on screen Fin is clearly kicking Beo's ass. If you're going to assume canon you might as well assume Beowulf gets Lachesis so "1 > 0" isn't an option. And if you're saying Fin is loyal then he wouldn't be cheating on said other woman with Lachesis, so worst case scenario for Beowulf it's a tie. And then Beowulf isn't stealing someone's wife while Fin is. In fact, he is GIVING Fin HIS girl because he needs it to hide his homosexuality. Quote: I doubt that. That's okay, you can't help it, you think Fin is loyal and heterosexual.


Paperblade vs Mekkah · Debates