Inui

Sep 28 2007, 10:09 PM

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Whoa, whoa. What is this? If Sain is "almost never" standing next to Serra, how the hell is Lyn next to Kent?

Lyn is fighting and not camping like Serra. Lyn x Kent is way faster than Serra x Sain. Lyn x Kent is thus far more plausible.

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And wtf @ this support being "horribly slow". Your facts are horribly wrong. Sain-Serra B is almost the same number of turns as Kent-Sain A. It's the same number of turns as something like Guy-Priscilla.

Kent x Sain A: 71
Serra x Sain B: 81

Sain's job: Frontline and kill things.
Kent's job: Frontline and kill things.
Serra's job: Stay back and heal.

Kent's Move: 7
Sain's Move: 7
Serra's Move: 5

Yeah, looks like the support is really slow. They aren't near each other very often, and it takes a lot of turns anyways. And this comparing an A to a B, lol.

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Anyway, no, Sain doesn't rush forward. He doesn't have massive durability. He has offense, and he attacks enemies rather than running past them.

He has good durability. It's not massive, but he's going to be ahead of the likes of Serra almost all the time at the very least. It's not like he's blindly rushing, but he's indeed pushing forward to finish things faster. Tactics ftw.

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Wtf? Yes, it is like I'm not going to field her.
She's forced for a few chapters. Okay, yaye? What's the problem? Just keep her in the back, and she won't get attacked. And half of them are defend chapters.
Her avoid is not good. Her affinity is wind, and Kent is the only support she's getting that gives even half avoid. That's an auto-phail in avoid. The only time her avoid is good is against axes.

It's better to just use her. She has to be there in the final, and she can't just stay back due to long-range things and status staves. You'll either have her die and then fail the game, or have to cripple someone by carrying her around.

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And:

Lyn: 20/5 w/ B Kent: 66.1 Evd
Lucius: 20/5 w/ A Raven/B Serra: 55 Evd
Erk: 20/7 w/ A Priscilla/C Serra: 66.5 Evd

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Uh, yeah, nothing wrong with her Evd.  If you promote Eliwood first, then yeah, she'll promote late, but she gets bows so she doesn't have to take counters as often anymore.  She's actually good in Cog of Destiny from having good Evd by then and decent Res, and being able to double the Valkyries and one-round them.

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If Lucius is viable at all for Serra, Lyn is easily viable for Kent.

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Too bad C Florina gives her no durability. Lucius is getting defensive bonuses faster than Lyn is.

And Lyn is still winning.

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Lyn crushing in durability? She has a 2 def lead which is actually 0-1 when you factor in supports, and that's it.

I did factour in supports.

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Lyn will get B Florina while Lucius gets C Raven, which changes nothing in the Def gap.

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The avoid is laughably unreliable, so it's nearly worthless. It helps against Steel Axes, and that's it. And on the flipside, her defense drops by 1 vs lances.

It's probably one of the highest Evd scores at this point in the game since supports aren't high enough to matter a lot.

Guy: 15/0 w/ B Matthew/C Priscilla: 57.4

That's the absolute highest around this point in the game. Most units are far behind this. Lyn's Evd isn't hugely reliable, but she's got more than almost everyone on the team.

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Yeah, lances can school her, but the Mani Katti one-rounds them.

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Now on to Lucius's advantages that you conveniently neglected to include: A 10 res lead giving him a massive win vs magic, and not taking counterattacks, which gives him a clear win in durabiliy. Lyn can only take 1-2 hits without dying in the first place, and then one of those goes away from the counterattack. That's pretty phail.
Lucius beats Lyn in durability.

Yay, magic users, which are really uncommon. He wins Cog of Destiny.

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Lyn can do things on the enemy phase.  Lucius can't.  Lucius wins durability against a single enemy on the player phase, and that's it.  Unless there's a magic user swarm, but Lyn has Evd at least.

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Your precious Serra can heal her.  Or Priscilla.  Not a big deal.

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I still don't understand how Lyn so easily dies.  I've played this game so many times, used Lyn every time, and I've never found her to be too frail.  Enemies in this game don't have the Hit of FE 9 enemies or the Atk of FE 6 enemies.  They're pretty...bleh.

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Well, whatever.  You've successfully proved that Lyn is mid tier or something, not that Serra is better than Kent.

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I don't think you thought your cunning plan all the way through. First of all, Lucius can use that item as well. You get it near the end of chapter 6, and Lucius joins at the very start of ch 7.
Additonally, using that means not S-ing funds and therefore not getting a White Gem in ch 16, so lol @ at that.

Giving Lyn 7 HP can be worth losing out on some cash in the next mode. It's not like Funds is hard to S. It's really easy. If you're using Lyn or Lucius, they both really want it.

But, yeah, it's a bit of a problem.

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What kind of question is that? She's healing player units, obviously.

Yes, but what missing HP?

She needs to heal 9 times to get a single level up. That's 9 turns. Kent is already way past level 1 before Serra even exists, and Serra doesn't start higher than level 1. Kent can gain more EXP in a single enemy phase than Serra can gain with two heals from a Nils refresh.

And then there's the problem of your units often not taking damage. Things have bad Hit and are often just slaughtered, and weak things even *cling* Sain and Kent.

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Now you're making the game take an extra year and a half, which is massive phail already.
And you lose the S in funds, so you don't get a White Gem in ch 16.
And Sain could do this as well, so even if you do this, Kent is only promoting half the time.

That's not really a detriment in terms of ranks. If you abuse at all, you already failed your Tactics rank. Taking extra time is worth it since the payoff is massive: a better version of Marcus that stays good forever.

And you don't have to promote Kent in HHM, so that's balanced out. You didn't think your cunning plan through this time, good sir!

Okay, so Kent is way better than Serra 50% of the time you Lundgren abuse if Sain and Kent are considered equal in line for the promotion. Now you can break even at beast in this debate on this issue. Or maybe not, since Kent's partner will then become way better than Serra and Kent gets to always be with him. Usually Kent should be promoted, anyways. He's the better unit. Like how Lance gets promoted first in FE 6 usually, from what I've read.

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And then, when Kent rejoins, he's eating the exp rank. 20/1 in ch 16 or 20/1 in ch 17x
Serra you could have on a bit higher level so that she reaches 20 and promotes not much later, in ch 18, and actually still is good for the exp rank and takes way way less extra time (takes about 2-3 times as long to get Serra there as opposed to about 10 times as long to get Kent there) abusing and doesn't kill my White Gem. They're both raep and one-round everything and have good durability, but Serra also has staves. And Serra can actually gain a decent amount of exp, so she gets a level lead.

So, while it really doesn't matter due to this way suxxing massively, Serra wins this way, too.

Yes, Serra will successfully win Experience.

And then Kent is invincible and doing amazing in every other rank. Kills everything in one round, is really cheap, and has tons of mobility.

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Why does this way suck massively?  Because you have to spend an extra half hour hitting Lundgren with Kent?  The payoff is that you get a God in the next mode.  Worth it.  Very worth it.

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You have two options: Get 19xx or don't. The spend a year abusing after already getting Nils to 7 isn't an option. Well, it could be, but it's already phail. Spending a year boss abusing is as bad as having to spend a year strategizing because of your units phailing at life. It's worse, actually, because it's b0ring as well.

It's an option. And it doesn't take a year to only abuse Kent to promotion. Maybe if you abused everyone else, but I'm saying to just abuse Kent since that yields the highest payoff by far. It takes about half an hour to get one unit to promotion point, sometimes less.

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Well, without Lundgren abuse,
Kent'll be about lv 11 by Pirate Ship. 7.5 def, 3.5 res, 28.5 hp, 27.0 avo. Archers and Iron Lance Pegs (~15 atk) kill him in 4 hits. Mercs and Steel Lance Pegs (~17-18 atk) kill him in 3 hits. Shamans (~14-17 atk) kill him in 3.
Serra will be about lv 15. 4.1 def, 12.7 res, 24.0 hp, 41.6 avo. Archers and Iron Pegs kill in 3. Mercs and Steel Pegs kill in 2. Shamans kill in ~9.
Like I said, Kent's durability doesn't even beat hers here. With all those Shamans, and then add in the fact that he often has to take counters, and it's obvious that he doesn't win durability. In other chapters, there aren't as many magic users, so Serra doesn't get that advantage, but there are also more forests, so her advantage in avoid matters a bit more.

I don't have a clue how Serra has a big level lead like this. Without Lundgren abuse, she's really low level from Lyn's mode. She needs 9 heals per level, and some chapters are only half that length in turns. She's gaining very little from Lyn's mode, while Kent is gaining a lot more.

Serra can heal once and get 11 EXP. Kent can bait a single enemy, gain like 5, and then kill it and gain 10. That's with ONE enemy. Kent is actually gaining EXP far more easily, so Serra can't secure a level lead until she can fight.

Wow @ this massive Serra powerleveling. Reduce Serra's level by about 4 or 5 and increase Kent's by about 2 or 3 and you have what actually happens. Or what actually happens when I play this game, at least, and I've played it somewhere around 300 times.

Serra joins in Chapter 5 of Lyn's mode. She can do stuff in 5, 6, 7, 7x, 8, 9, and 10. If you plan on S'ing Tactics, she's getting very little time to heal due to chapters finishing in like five-seven turns. Except for 10, and 9 can take some time. Those are really the only chapters where she can do a solid amount of healing. I don't see how she's going to beat Kent in levels when Kent has a big level lead in Lyn's mode.

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Serra joins HHM in Chapter 12, and can heal a tiny bit there, and then 13, 13x, 14, 15.  A level per chapter would put her around the same as Kent, if I'm thinking right, and then Kent can gain EXP better from here on.  But she can't even gain a level per chapter.  She's lucky to heal five times in Chapter 12.  Chapter 13 is only going to be about ten turns, 13x is only 7 turns every time, 14 limits her because she has to go recruit Erk and the enemies are too abundant, and 15 has a turn limit under what it takes to gain a whole level.

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Kent baits something.  Gains 5 EXP.
Serra heals on her turn.  Gains 11 EXP.
Kent kills something and gains 10 EXP.

Moar for Kent.  And this is probably a lot less than what Kent actually would get from fighting.

Serra can only catch-up in level when she can finally fight, and that will also take time since Kent is seeing more combat.

So, yeah, screw you and your massive Serra powerleveling for no reason.

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lol no, only healer >>>>>>>>>>>> anything Kent has
One of your best fighters? Yeah, one of about 10 of your best fighters. Hector, Sain, Lowen, Erk, Matthew, Dorcas, and Oswin are about on his level, and Guy and Marcus are clearly better. Being one of only two healers aleady beats this without even touching either of her advantages of being the only healer for a few chapters or being raep for the exp rank.
Sry, Serra is tons more useful than Kent.

Best fighter for almost the entire game if you Lundgren abuse and promote him, which is perfectly viable. Either you rush in Lyn's mode to S Tactics and Serra is like level 5 at the end, or you abuse for 19xx and just promote Kent when you're done. Kent is at a higher level either way.

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And then there's the fact that Serra is helping out without cutting into anyone else's exp, like Kent is against every other combat unit since there's a limited number of enemies to gain exp from.

That's like...one of the worst arguements ever that people use just to fluff their arguements up. That means every single combat unit is doing a bad thing while killing enemies. If Kent wasn't making use of the EXP, then maybe it'd be valid, but the payoff of giving Kent EXP is high, so it's not a flaw at all.

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She can be cutting into Priscilla's EXP.

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Of course, healers don't take EXP from other units nearly as much, but it's certainly not a flaw worth harping on about in a debaet.  This would make healers better than every other unit if this mattered at all.  You have to level everyone up to beat the game, and you need your units to not be massively overleveled to S Experience.  If you decreased your team size, you increase the difficulty of Experience and sometimes Tactics.

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No, Kent can only help to maybe better any of the ranks because he's never the best at anything, and there's nothing that's Kent-specific.
Ttactics, yes, he can help with this rank. And healing units so they can actually move forward without getting raepd also helps tactics. No advantage for Kent here.
Combat? Wtf? Enough with the BS. You know perfectly well that combat rank in this game is a joke; you've even said it before yourself. You can 2-round half the enemies and 3-round the other half and never 1-round anything and still S combat. lol @ only needing 40% wins to S.
Survival? Healing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rescuing for keeping units alive. And no, Kent can't regularly one-round things, killing them "before they can do anything", until after Serra promotes and can do the same. Serra easily wins this rank.
Funds? If Kent uses Killer 30% of the time and Iron 70%...
Killer Ln 30%, Iron Ln 70% = avg 23.6 per use
Shine 30%, Lightning 70% = avg 21.6 per use
o snap; he's moar expensive. Let's try...
Killer Ln 26%, Iron Ln 74% = avg 21.52 per use
Exp? Serra obviously >>>>>>>>>>>> Kent

And that's a problem? He's still bettering all of the ranks a lot besides EXP.

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Tactics is the hardest.  Kent killing things and moving forward helps more than Serra healing people.

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With Lundgren abuse, yes.  And after promotion normally, yes, except for Heroes.

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Kent doesn't need Killer that much.  If he promotes in Lyn's mode, Iron works almost all the time.  Without it, he's still using Iron for more time than that, anyways.  Killer is used maybe 20% of the time normally, and like 5% with Lundgren abuse.

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No, you don't have to rush.

The Tactics rank is too gay to not rush. I suppose in this case, yes, it's better to let the thief still the first item, but you still have to kill him before he runs away. Kent can do this, and you still need to move quickly. It's only giving you one more turn to work with if you let him steal the silver sword.

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Lundgren-abused Kent is 12-13, so KENT'S stats are right except Kent has 1 less atk than that. He doesn't have C Sain yet. 17 turns is fast, yes, but 2 chapters isn't going to do it; chs 16 and 17 are not long chapters. Getting it that fast either means being adjancent pretty much every turn, which is extremely impractical and would make Kent or Sain's usefulness suck, or it means tactics rank raep. And you need 13 AS to double all the pirates, not 12.
non-Lundgren-abused Kent is 11 and phails.
Raven's stats, however, are quite wrong. lv 6 Raven has 10.6 str and 15.0 spd.

No. Abused Kent is promoted. I'm going to stick by that. It's not even a comparison when Kent is promoted, so I won't bother at all.

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for getting the houses that you can't reach otherwise

Which ones are those? I can't recall any.

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Wtf? No, he can't. Dying in 3 hits is ridiculously far from invincible. Was that a joke?

3 hits from Shamans and Steel Lances, yeah. I'm not saying to fight those things. Move Sain and Kent to the right where there are sword users, and they will not die.

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see above durability comparison done for this chapter

I did, and had to reread it and went "wtf" at it.

And, you know what? Who cares if Serra has decent durability as a healer? She's 100% worthless on the enemy phase. She's even worse than a unit that has less durability. She can't hit back. Even if Kent was somehow losing durability, he's still better than her on every single enemy phase before she promotes. That's half of the game during the time Serra isn't promoted. Every time she's attacked, she does nothing, and hurts Combat. Kent can counter.

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No, he might have it several turns into ch 18, but that's the earliest. Or were you support abusing or something? oki, lulz; tactics raep

17 turns. That's really short. Say you get at least five turns while moving through the forests in 16, and then like 8 in 17. It's basically done by the time you fight things in 17x. No abuse needed.

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Serra = lv 17 starting 19x if you're not getting 19xx. lv 19 if you are

Unbelievable.

Prove it. Prove how Serra is this high without abuse. Level 17 by the time you're in 19x? That's...

I've already shown why she doesn't gain a lot. How is she going to gain that much EXP from only healing?

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Kent, 17/0, B Sain:
38.6 avo, 33.6 hp, 10.0 def, 6.0 res, 15.2 critavo
Serra, 20/1, C Lucius, C Sain:
53.6 avo, 29.5 hp, 7.8 def, 18.4 res, 24.4 critavo

12 res, 15 avo, 9 critavo >> 2 def, 4 hp


20/1 Kent, A Sain:
45.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 12.7 def, 7.8 res, 20.8 critavo
20/9 Serra, C Erk, B Lucius, B Sain:
76.8 avo, 33.5 hp, 12.0 def, 25.8 res, 42.2 critavo

20/1 Kent, A Sain, B Fiora:
50.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 13.7 def, 8.8 res, 30.8 critavo


too much raep for words

Again, I don't find that level lead to be realistic or believable. 8 level lead? Insane. Promoting first? Insane. Either Kent promotes way before in Lyn's mode, or promotes around the same time with the second Knight Crest. Erk competes with Priscilla for that first Guiding Ring, afterall.

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Also, Lyn being deemed unfieldable; absurd.  Her stats aren't that low, and she's fielded by default sometimes, including the Final.  Maybe if she was as bad as Wil or something, but she's not.  She's a perfectly viable unit being in mid tier.  Not any less viable than Lucius.

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And:

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SArsalaanS (6:33:57 PM): Then healing is not necessary, combat is. Earlygame, vulneraries, no necessity I see. lategame, Supports + h4x durability (FE9 is a great example; half your units are impervious). Combat can never be called unnecessary. And the differences between combat units are more pronounced than the differences between healers. For example, doing 4 less damage per blow is 8 less per double, whereas a healer who heals for less isn't going to make a huge impact on your team. 4 less HP per heal? No matter, you don't need the 4 HP.

I know it may seem unoriginal of me to just quote Solid, but I didn't feel like just rewording what he said. I can expand upon it, however. Basically, combat is always needed at every point in the game, and you can't advance without it. You can't finish any chapters without killing things, and you can't S Combat without killing things easily. Healers can never be used and you can S rank anyways. The same can't be said for combat units. Kent is a h4x combat unit.

Now, I shall make another copy, and take something Sentenal said in a debate and just change the names and make some edits, lol. "In fact, I can't even see why you would ever even imply that Healing>>>>Combat. Seriously. Serra could run around, healing every single unit every turn, non-stop, and that healing wouldn't make a difference. Healing doesn't kill enemy units. Healing doesn't kill bosses who guard castles, that you need to capture to proceed.

However, killing people lets you proceed with the game. Killing those bosses on the castles and thrones lets you proceed with the game. Killing enemies to clear chapters lets you proceed with the game. Isn't it blatantly obvious how much more valuable killing things is? Is it more common? Yeah, thank god, but that doesn't make it any less useful."

Killing enemies completes the game. Healing doesn't. Healing just helps in doing it. Healing is like the left arm of your body of progress; it's useful, but not as good as combat, which is basically everything else.

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Kent destroys Serra when it comes to fighting, so he wins.

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Anyways... 

If you Lundgren abuse and promote Kent, he's wtfraping everyone and the best unit in the game besides Matthew and maybe Ninian.  This isn't even arguable.  He's going to have the best stats forever.  Well, maybe someone will get better in the endgame, but that's about it.
If you abuse and promote Sain instead, Kent gets to tag along with God all the time.

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If you don't Lundgren abuse and aim for S'ing Tactics in Lyn's mode, Serra gains very few levels, and Kent maintains a level lead until late in the game, so he's winning.  I showed how.  Well, there are higher level staves, and then Kent can just bait two or three enemies instead and gain more EXP.