Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Reikken vs Inui
+Ema Skye	Oct 20 2007, 07:25 PM
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,959 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Quote: First off, the Mercs average 41 avo. 14-17 spd, 1 AS loss, and, 6-8 lck. +5 from the terrain. Sentenal's enemy samples are probably just the highest he can find or something, I dunno. 63 (73%) hit with Aircalibur, 73 (85.7%) with Fire. That's fine. It was still a viable sample, and the decreases don't change the fact that they rape Cecilia horribly and she can't do anything to them. Quote: Anyway, so every enemy on the map is a Merc, huh? Let's compare Garret against the Mercs when he joins, then. He has about 51 (52.5%) hit on them with a Killer Axe, and his hit doesn't go any higher. When he attacks, unlike Cecilia, he gets doubled with a counterattack for 14x2, and then it takes just one to finish him on enemy phase. Cecilia needs 2 thanks to not taking a counterattack. Garret is prepromoted and uses the cheapest weapon type. Not giving him a Swordreaver for such situations is ridiculous. And so, against your Merc: ~89 Real Hit if WTA is double with reavers which I'm not sure on, and ~78 if it's not, with ~36 Crit. The Merc now only has ~50 Hit or so with double WTA and ~60 with normal WTA. If you just attack with another unit and damage the Merc first, Garret will slay it easily since he does massive damage. Cecilia's chances of dodging are almost nothing. She's also left in much worse shape after taking an attack due to Garret's huge HP and DEF wins. Quote: And the best part? If it's an enemy she's bad against, she can still be just as useful for she can do other things, such as use staves. Garret? He either sits there and does nothing, or he gets raped. And often healing is better regardless. Saving someone from death and/or allowing them to go continue fighting >>>> attacking and maybe killing an enemy. What is Garret bad against? He easily crushes lance users and can counter sword users with WTA. Axe users have bad Evd and Hit anyways. The only enemies I can think of that he's awful against are Nomads, Swordmasters, and magic users that get to attack first, and Cecilia's even worse against those(except the magic pplz, but she can't damage them). Cecilia can run around healing and healing forever and it won't make you complete a chapter or finish the game. Garret kills things to allow you to progress. Cecilia's healing can easily be substituted for by the plethora of superior magic users in your party and healing items. Healing doesn't complete chapters. Fighting is always needed, and Garret's good at it. When he joins, he has massive Atk and Crit, and is only losing Atk Spd to your party, and not even by that much sans gods like Rutger and Lance. He will have the highest HP of all your units until he starts cap ramming. Quote: o noz. Who cares? It's one enemy, and it rapes alot of people. Even Alan can get one-rounded by it. If Garret was decent against it, then sure, but that's obviously not the case. He'd be better than Cecilia against it with a Swordreaver, that's for sure. Quote: Worst possible enemy on the map = Steel Axe Brigand or Steel Lance Wyvern Rider. Hand Axe Brigand is actually one of the ones she does the worst against (for Player Phase at least) since it has 1-2 range. That barely changes anything. Cecilia can attack it without getting countered, but she takes more damage when it attacks her, and she's still sucking terribly. Garret can one-round crappy things like weighed down Brigands, but Cecilia can't. Quote: and everyone's avoid drops by 5 "Druids that wtfraep her terribly"? What are you talking about? There's only one Druid that attacks, and it's no more dangerous than anything else. No, she's not overly durable, but most others aren't either, and Cecilia isn't taking counterattacks and isn't always fighting and is healing instead, and she has high mobility for good placement, so there's no problem. But average level went up to make up for that, and Cecilia's Hit is still bleh. Well, she can't damage them, and the one that attacks her indeed destroys her. Actually, anything that attacks her will wreck her. She will have the worst durability in your party by far. Even units like Clarine, Lalum, and Lugh that will have less raw Def and less HP will be more durable thanks to actually dodging things and having supports. You kidding me? At this point, most of your units are perfectly fine. Who's going to die? Lance, Alan, Echidna. Rutger, Gonzales, Dieck, etc? No way. They're indeed "overly durable" when compared to the glass that is Cecilia. The only units she can possibly make a case of durabilty against are the ones with crap HP that don't have super h4x Evd yet, like Lugh. Quote: Garret joins here. Now...who cares? Garret is even worse off, as shown above, and his only role is fighting. Way to phail. No, he's not, as shown above. Quote: Saul and Ellen can attack as well. Even if you don't need as many heals as you have staff users, and you very often will--this is FE6, afterall-- letting Saul or Ellen attack instead of heal = +that much offense, and they have pretty good offense thanks to being already promoted. Lugh is indeed later on, out of the context of this section of the discussion, and even once he does promote, see above. The others are also later on, but they're also "lolnothx, I'd rather not use sucky units." They're inferior at attacking compared to a large amount of units, so they're mostly healing. Allowing them to attack is handy, but it's a minimal point for Cecilia at best. Clarine, Saul, and Ellen are all currently healing. In addition to this, you can look forward to having Lugh and Ray-if-you're-using-him healing. Later than this, you have filler like Niime and Yodel that can outdo Cecilia. Well, Niime pwns her in offense, at least. Quote: You haven't done anything to show that Cecilia is even suck, let alone massive suck. "This enemy can pwn her!" "Oh wait, a top tier unit can get pwned as well". So she doesn't wtfraep enemies. Okay? This is FE6, not FE7. Enemies don't suck and get raepd. If she was sucking compared to everyone else, then sure, but that's not the case. She's actually pretty well off as she can both attack and heal, and she's mounted but without the slayer weaknesses since horseslayers are only effective against paladins and cavaliers. She has abysmal durability and offense. Possibly the worst on your team. That's indeed massive suck. Worst on team = worst possible = massive suck. She's completely incapable of one-rounding and very easily killed. The numbers show it. Even the weak enemies are raping her. And she is sucking compared to everyone else. Cecilia at base: 30 HP, 7 Def, 13 Res, 30 Evd, 10 Crit Evd, 10 Atk Spd Underleveled Dieck only at 15/0 with just C Rutger/C Clarine: 35 HP, 9 Def, 3.5 Res, 41.5 Evd, 18.5 Crit Evd, 13 Atk Spd lulz, even when deprived, Dieck rapes her. Here's some lulz: Level 15 Astol with no supports: 29.5 HP, 8 Def, 4 Res, 46.8 Evd, 11.8 Crit Evd, 17.5 Atk Spd Base level Bartre: 48 HP, 10 Def, 3 Res, 34 Evd, 14 Crit Evd, 10 Atk Spd Base level Marcus deprived of EXP and supports: 32 HP, 9 Def, 8 Res, 32 Evd, 10 Crit Evd, 11 Atk Spd What the fuck? She's losing to garbage. Even Marcus would be raping her if given a few levels and just C Roy or something, lol. This is terrible. Beyond terrible. Cecilia is glass. Must I go on? Quote: Treck doesn't die before he's recruited. Rescue/drop, and he's recruited on turn 2 every time. Indeed Treck may not be used, but Geese is about as good as Treck, so he's also getting not used about as much. Uh, whatever. Both get used sometimes. Quote: A Lalum B Geese > A Lalum B Gonzales - support triangle - Echidna needs offense moar: she's already getting full avo and near-full def Geese is still free for a C. Gonzales is now even more free. Works for me. Quote: More like Geese isn't getting used at all because he has no supports until a C midway through Ilia/Sacae. Gonzales is also worse: -3.5 spd, -exp rank bonus, etc., and Treck is his only support for forever, so if Treck doesn't get used, he goes supportless for about as long as Geese, so he also becomes iffy. If Geese is used: C Geese, B(A) Gonzales. A in parenthesis because he's not actually going to reach that. It's 180 turns, and 10 chapters later already sees ch 22. If Geese isn't used and Treck is: C Gonzales If Geese isn't used and Treck isn't either: B(A) Gonzales not looking too good for Garret Use Cath, lol. And yes, Gonzales is worse off, and the EXP rank suffers a tiny bit, but it's not a huge problem. You're not going to always take the Echidna route. Taking it most of the time is understandable, though. The point here I'm trying to make is that Garret just snags C's with the likes of Geese/Gonzales almost all the time. And even with minimal supports, he's winning. Quote: He may do this occasionally, but not often because there are enemies in the way, and his stats with supports >>> his stats unsupported. It's not much of an issue. If there are few enough enemies nearby that Percival should run away, Cecilia isn't in much danger anyway. He gets better bonuses from Klein, Lalum, and Douglas. And Klein and Douglas crush Cecilia in defense, and Klein crushes her in offense, and Douglas even wins offense in a lot of cases. The only thing she has on them is a horse and staves. But she dies easily and they are very hard to kill, and they can fight better, and that's better. Glass on a horse is still glass. Quote: Full crit is indeed > half atk, but that's not the difference here. It's half crit vs half atk (half crit + half crit vs half crit + half atk). Any difference between those is minimal at best. More importantly, Douglas blows and isn't getting used. He has good def, sure, but low res and low avoid, and he gets doubled all the time, so his durability isn't that impressive, and everything else about him sucks. 5 Crit > 2.5 Crit + 0.5 Atk. It's minimal, but Percival wants Crit more. Cecilia blows, too. Douglas can survive and actually give bonuses on the frontline. He's only getting doubled a bit more than Cecilia, really only in the cases of Mercs that cling him and Wyvern Lords. However, his Evd gets decent after supports since he has a great defensive affinity, and is Def gets even more insane. Steel vs Glass, lol. I'd let steel support me over glass even if the steel moves around slower. Quote: Whether or not Klein is better than Cecilia doesn't matter as he's still worse than loads of others who are getting on the team instead of him. He may be used for a few chapters if you just need an overleveled dude for some reason, but not as a permanent team member. He's fine. Not unfieldable at all. He's a viable support partner. You don't always use the elite of the elite when you play, which is why we're debating these units in the first place. He's more fieldable than Cecilia. Quote: No, Dorothy sucks and isn't getting used. She has a terrible class that gets no weapons or crit boost or anything on promotion and can never counter melee, and she joins underleveled with crappy bases. Igrene isn't much better. Klein is better than her, and he's not good himself. Whether or not she's better than Cecilia doesn't matter as she's still worse than loads of others who are getting on the team instead of her. Well, yeah, but let's say you let her tag along to give Saul some actual supports and peck at things. She can just poke things and gain some levels before Cecilia joins. She can gain get to 15/0 by poking and following Saul. Level 13/0 Dorothy w/ B Saul Defense: 29.2 HP, 6.8 Def, 4.8 Res, 40 Evd, 12.2 Crit Evd Offense: 12 Atk, 36.4 Hit, 10.7 Crit, 11.4 Atk Spd She's beating Cecilia in stats at a lower level. >_>; Cecilia counters that with a horse and staves, though. Against Igrene, it's even moar lulz. Igrene has way better bases than Cecilia. her base Atk Spd is Cecilia's 20/20 Atk Spd. My point is that Cecilia's stats don't even exist when compared to garbage. That's what I've been driving at here. Her stats are abysmal. Her only positives are a horse and staves. Garret actually has stats. Quote: And they're all utterly horrible, except Thany, who's just normal horrible, so not using any of them is by far the best option. Indeed. Individually, they have very low chances of being fielded. Combined, one of them is likely to be used, and then Cecilia has no chance for that C with Roy. Quote: How good Marcus is compared to Cecilia has zero relevance. This is Cecilia vs Garret, not Cecilia vs Marcus. Dropping Marcus after earlygame for someone else >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing to use him, and Marcus is almost never next to Roy earlygame anyway because he's off making himself useful with his 8 move and good bases instead, so Roy's definitely not getting a Marcus support. They can be next to each other for 15 turns before Cecilia joins and get that support. Using Marcus after the earlygame is probably better than using Cecilia at all. Marcus is way more durable, for starters. He can actually use a whole crapload of weapons like slayer/killer/silver to make up for shitty offense. He has more Atk Spd than Cecilia. Cecilia's single advantage is staves. Personally, I'd rather field Marcus forever than use Cecilia at all, because Marcus can survive and use awesome weapons to make up for his shortcomings in offense. Cecilia doesn't have this, and nothing ever helps her insanely low Atk Spd. Quote: Indeed, after two hits, Garret's hp lead is pretty much gone, and three leaves Cecilia winning slightly, and that carries over after healing, since your units don't heal enough to fully heal Garret, so no, the hp lead isn't more significant. And that's only at the start, before growths, levels, and supports, all of which Cecilia beats Garret in. That's why Mend was invented. Or Recover. Also, melee users are way more common. Cecilia has nothing to make up for this. Garret can get WTA vs two melee weapons and has huge HP for melee users, and huge HP to make up for bad RES. Cecilia has nothing. Cecilia was actually given a three level lead when I did that comparison. Quote: Go to liek the start of ch 20x, right when Garret's hp caps, before his hp growth starts being wasted, and assuming Geese gets used: Garret, 20/9, C Geese, C Gonzales: 60 hp, 5.4 res Cecilia, 20/15, A Percival, C Roy, C Saul: 38.4 hp, 19.5 res And yes, staves + class exp bonus makes Cecilia reach 10 levels in the time Garret reaches 8. After two hits, Cecilia wins by 6. Garret doesn't reach B Gonzales for +1 res (and 2 avo) until probably most of the way through ch 21. That helps, but his hp has also stopped growing. For the rest of durability, Garret starts with 2 more def, so he would win except Cecilia doesn't take counters. Then, back to ch 20x: Garret: 11.2 def, 46.1 avo Cecilia: 12.8 def, 65.5 avo and on top of that, she still almost never takes counters, so her durability >> his. Related to durability, Cecilia can always counter ranged, while Garret can't and has phail hit when he switches to a ranged weapon. She's not healing enough to gain that much EXP. Saul, Ellen, and Clarine exist. All are way better. And Lugh, Ray, and Hugh can be promoted. Those supports aren't happening, or at least really rare. She's not making any use of that class bonus because she can barely enter combat. She's abysmal at living at fighting. So, no; these comparisons are incorrect and slanted towards Cecilia. I'm not going to repost stuff I already said, so I'll just say this was countered by stuff posted above, which it was. Quote: and he gets -10 along with -1 def against the things that double him Those are less common around then, but... Swordreaver means he gets WT bonuses. Yay for being a cheap prepromoted d00d. Quote: Things that don't happen don't matter. They're never on the same level. Oh no, his SPD lead is a bit smaller than that! It's still a lead. Quote: fix'd Also, Garret has a 57.5% hit growth while Cecilia's is 102.5%. Seems more like you broke it, actually. That's fine. Garret's Hit base is way bigger, so it's fine. His affinity also gives Hit. Quote: And Cecilia has Aircalibur. And... Garret's hit with Halberd: 96.8 Garret's hit with Hammer: 86.8 There's only one Swordreaver in the game, it has only 20 uses, and both his supporters are axe-only, so he's never seeing that thing. And reavers don't double the weapon triangle like in FE7 anyway. Okay. She still sucks. Your point? He has WTA. Your point? He has WTA and Generals/Knights have crap Evd. Only one in the entire game? You can't ever buy them? Are you sure? I was certain there were more. Quote: And I dunno what that rant about Fire having low mt is supposed to mean. The gap between Fire and Iron == gap between Aircalibur and Killer. Cecilia's base Atk is too crappy for her to deal damage with Fire. Garret's base Atk is huge, so he can do a lot with Iron.
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