Viewing Single Post From: Paperblade vs Inui

Viewing Single Post From: Paperblade vs Inui
+Ema Skye	Oct 26 2007, 12:35 AM
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,966 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Quote: Little relevance to first gen rankings? There's no such thing as "First Gen" or "Second Gen" rankings, just an overall FE4 ranking, and Fin is win for the most difficult one, EXP. Fin gets access to 8 Arenas, Jamka gets 4 (assuming you have Edain Warp or Ethlin Return in Chapter 1). That's DOUBLE the access, and getting 29 levels total vs. 24. And if Jamka is getting "tons of EXP" from 4 Arenas, then Fin is getting even more from 8. What I mean is that it doesn't do anything for your rankings during the first generation. What Fin does during the second generation isn't applicable to this debate. It's in the rules. If it wasn't, Fin would automatically win, maybe even over units like Sigurd... Or maybe not. Either way, it's kinda dumb. So, you're going to limit Fin a lot by keeping him at a low level, which benefits one difficult rank. Jamuka can crush things and be good. That makes Jamuka better in this First Generation debate tournament. Also... I recently recorded all of my levels as I progressed through the game, trying to use every single unit for that EXP rank without killing other ranks. Here are his levels at the start of each chapter. Chapter 2: Level 11.2 Chapter 3: Level 17.3 Chapter 4: Level 21.5 Chapter 5: Level 26.0 Endgame: Level 30.0 Ohsnapz, a lot of that is from the arenas. He can max out his level pretty easily. Lots of EXP from arenas and then just fighting like everyone else does it. Quote: I think you missed the part where Fin doesn't NEED to be doing much because of his ridiculous access to EXP. He's in 9 chapters and gets 8 Arenas, he can afford to miss 2 chapters to get that pairing, because 7 chapters and 8 arenas is still more than any other character in the game. Then he is balls. Jamuka can rape four arenas, and rape everything he attacks, and never die, His only problem is his class. In this game, countering isn't as important as it in others, because there's a lot of rushing and offensive stuff. You don't just camp and play defensively. You have to rush and kill things because of all the castles and the Tactics rank. Yes, Fin has a horsey, so this is good for him, but Jamuka's movement isn't lolmagicuser level, so he's not doing terrible. He also has one more range than all of the other foot people except Brigid. And, if Fin is hanging with Lachesis, less use for him. So what if he's benefitting the second generation by just hanging back and gaining his EXP there? Then he's not even doing anything in the first generation, so whatever, Jamuka wins. Quote: I don't see how Ayra is relevant to this discussion, and I like how you ignored Javelin users (of which about 66% of the Lance Armors in Chapter 2 are), Axe Armors (5 in Chapter 2 compared to 6 Sword Armors), and Bow Armors (admittedly rare, at only 3). Ayra has ridiculous offense. Most offense in the first generation after getting the Hero Sword. Jamuka, however, doesn't seem to be losing to her, and he is more durable. Javelins suck. They're barely a threat to him. He actually has high Evd, good HP, and good Def. He also doesn't have WTDA. He has more Evd than Fin and more HP. He's doing better at fighting Javelin users. Quote: Also, Fin has the potential to one round them all with the Hero Lance at a 100% rate (which is more than Jamka can say, because even with all his hax skills, there's still a decent chance he won't Crit/Charge/Continue), although this is assuming we aren't going for his Lachesis pairing. . . But like I said, he really doesn't need to be, because he's already haxxing EXP Rank, which is really a more difficult rank to get. A decent chance he won't? Wtf? By the time he's fighting them, he has 15% Crit, 34% Continue, and 35% Duel vs a 0 Atk Spd unit. Since he has Pursuit, all of these have two chances to activate. This means he has a ~86.7% chance of something activating. This only increases as he gains HP, SKL, and SPD. ~94% of something happening vs 0 Atk Spd at level 30. Yes, he's relying on chances, but those chances are incredibly high, so it's very reliable. Quote: And Big Shield with 15+ Defense and 55+HP >>> Jamka's chances of one rounding Jamka at 16 has 15 Skill and 30 Attack with 14AS, meaning 34% Continue and 15% Crit. 39% chance of Charge against the lowest level General in Chapter 2, dealing 14 damage a hit, which is a 4HKO. So let's see, 100% Hit rate. . . Oh, and the boss has a 14% Big Shield chance. It doesn't seem very reliable. Is there a chance? Yes. Well he likely bring the boss to half or below? Yes. Does this matter? Not really, since most bosses can be 2HKO'd anyway. Uh, the only Generals around are the bosses, and Jamuka has a chance of one-rounding them. I'm pretty sure Fin's chance is 0%, and he has to fight against their close-range weapons, which are way better than lolJavelins. Duel counts negative SPD? Hmm, that means Jamuka's chances are even bigger than I calculated? I'm not sure. Quote: Level 5 Fin with a Hero Lance 4HKOs and doubles (and with Continue, that means 4 hits) any Armor except for the Level 14 Axe/Bow Armors at Anphony and the Sword Armors. 10.2 Strength + 1 from Cuan talk + 15 Might frm Hero Lance is 27.2 Attack, truncate to 27. The Level 14 Sword Armors are before he gets the Lance and he can't double anyway because Swords are hax. So the second highest is Level 10, with 54HP and 13 Armor. 27-13 is 14, 144 is 56. Pew pew, Fin wins. At Level 10 he can one round the Level 14s. 100% of the time. Even on enemy phase (except for the 3 Bow Armors at Anphony). If you're keeping him at such a low level, he's going to be devastated by the counter, and his chances of dodging will be nonexistent. Countering on the enemy phase? Lol, not if you're keeping him this low. If he's higher, sure, but then he's relying on Prayer, which isn't 100%, or even that reliable given that his HP could be at 9 instead of 1 before it activates, and then he's going to die. Quote: Fin hardly needs the EXP, and he's doing minimal fighting because it's not necessary for him to be doing so, since he still owns 3/4 of Chapter 2 with minimal EXP. Also, there's a Javelin that sells in Chapter 1 IIRC, and Axe-user Avoid sucks so bad he could probably use it effectively (most have about -20 Avoid, which compensates for WTD) Ugh, not that again. Lots of other dudes want that Javelin. Sigurd, Alec, and Noish, to be specific. Fin's not definitely getting it. He has more durability on his turn, and less on the enemy phase, and less offense in general with it. Quote: Well, Lance Armors do exactly enough damage to knock him to 1HP, which makes him basically invincible for a turn, which then lets him run back to Edain or something (she wants the EXP anyway and probably isn't in range). Is he losing out on EXP? Yeah. Does it matter? Not in particular. Ohohoho, now I see why you kept him at Level 5. Not just for your EXP arguement, but because he gets down to 1 HP exactly? Crafty. Well, if you do that, he's clearly failing in terms of combat to Jamuka, and Prayer doesn't even make him more durable unless you're being attacked by like 10 things at once, which doesn't happen. Jamuka has HP/Evd/Def to keep him alive for a single turn very easily. Quote: Oh no, a hit loss against enemies with -24 Avoid. Even with it, Fin has >100 Hit. The only one that matters is the Avoid loss. It's worth noting that Fin's attack is better than most at this point, since Noish and Lex and Cuan don't double, Alec and Midayl do less damage, and Arden just fails (as does Ethlin, but Ethlin can heal). That leaves Azel, who has even lower durability than Fin and less move, and Sigurd, who is broken. Is his durability weak? Yeah. Is he still 2 rounding every generic axe user, which is more than what anyone who isn't Azel or Sigurd can say? Yeah. Eh, never missing > having a shot at missing. More Hit is nice. Cuan has like ~20% to one-round while Fin's is 0%, so he's losing offense to another unit. Alec at least doubles and has WTA. He's outdoing Noish in offense, sure. Quote: Wait, the unit that joins 2 chapters later 5 levels higher has superior base stats? What are you trying to prove? Level 6 Fin w/ Cuan conversation HP: 35.5 STR: 11.2 MAG: 0.2 SKL: 11.0 SPD: 11.5 LUK: 10.5 DEF: 9.5 RES: 0.2 Hmm, yeah, Jamuka's better at even levels. Fin's total growth minus worthless MAG = 255. Jamuka's total growth = 255. Fin can't possibly have better stats than Jamuka. But wait, there's more. Fin's promo gain total = 12. Fin's promo gain total = 14. Damn, promotion just makes it worse. So, now that we have it settled that Jamuka's stats are always better*, we can move on, right? Quote: Jamka's offense for roughly half a chapter is better. There's still one a half more chapters after that where they're both there. It's still better after Fin gets the Hero Lance. Fin gets to whack non-sword armours 4 times, but Jamuka is winning everywhere else. Fin also almost always takes counters, while Jamuka almost never takes counters. He has huge chances of raping the super tanky things with all of his shit stacked up. Fin has a 0% chance of one-rounding bosses and Generals. So, Fin is better at one-rounding some armours by a small percent, and Jamuka's better at one-rounding Generals/bosses by a lot since Fin's chance is 0. During all this, however, Fin is taking counters, and therefor at risk of death, even with Prayer. Quote: And then they get out of the forests, and Fin quickly overtakes Jamka while running to the next castle. And then the chapter ends. Then in Chapter 2, Jamka spends the first half of the map trying to catch up, then more fun backtracking, fight swordies, then Jamka gets left behind again as we charge Shagall. Chapter 3 is about equal. When they get out, there's just moar forestz. Well, he moves along with everyone else, kills things when he encounters them and stuff. He kills a few armours, and he can move ahead to kill some free knights. Then when you're done with that, you can warp him. That's nice EXP for Edain and/or Ethlin. If you're doing this "Fin should wait for second gen to fight" stuff, then Jamuka is possibly promoted in Chapter 3 and absolutely crushing Fin. Quote: Good thing none of them will hit because he has no skill. His KILLER Bow has huge Hit, so he has very high Hit anyways. Harhar. Quote: Jamka's adopted, and Fin is pretty much the godfather to the Prince and Princess of Lenster, plus he's probably gonna get king of Agustria or something because Lachesis wants him and Sigurd decided to kill off everyone in power. Verdane is the crappiest country in Jugdral anyway (seriously, it's a country full of bandits, it wasn't even founded by a Crusader), being royalty there isn't worth much. Adopted? I never knew that. He doesn't look adopted. He just looks younger. His son becomes the King of Verdane at the end of the game, so he's probably not adopted. Being royalty somewhere >>> being a commoner. King of Agustria = Aless. Sorry, nppb. Here is your entire debate: Fin can just stay at a low level and let everyone else level up since he can level up in the second generation, and this makes him supposedly better for the gay EXP. Well, I'm pretty sure you have more units to level up in the second generation anyways, and they like starting at lower levels, so...
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