Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Sentenal

Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Sentenal
Mekkah	Nov 17 2007, 05:55 PM
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Hey Sentenal, long time no see! Holyn versus Lachesis it is. Seeing as this is FE4, where everyone can and will automatically be fielded, we should be looking at how each unit contributes to you getting an S-rank at the end of the game. The hardest rank in the game to fulfill is easily EXP. You need to level up every unit to their maximum potential to stand a chance at reaching the amount of required level-ups. Since Lachesis completely trumps Holyn when it comes to helping this requirement, she is definitely helping much more. How? Lachesis comes at L2, Holyn at L14. Assuming both max out, Lachesis contributes 28 levels, whereas Holyn only adds 16. For the record, you need to level up 982 times in the entire game to S-rank, with 48 playable characters, so on average each unit would have to level up a little over 20 times. And then there's a lot of people who aren't going to make that, like dancers, thieves, Deirdre, Hannibal, and obviously Holyn. And now, we'll focus on how these units are getting their EXP. There's essentially three main pools of EXP: - Field EXP from battling opposing armies - Arena - Healing There's also things like dancing, but neither of our units does that, so that's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the arena and field EXP are limited, and field EXP is also shared by every single other fighting unit. That means that beyond the levels that Holyn garners from the arena, he will be competing with other fighting units and getting a smaller portion. Lachesis, however, doesn't need to use field EXP once in her life and can still cap out her level. During Ch2, she can first heal her Paladin friends with her Live staff, and when she's done with that some other unit can come around and repeatedly lose in the arena and end up at 1HP. This doesn't even count as a combat loss, so it doesn't affect your rank. Meanwhile the rest of your army can take care of fighting armies and capturing castles and all. And then Ethlin can sell her the Return Staff which she can spam as well, and she can keep that up during Ch3. In Ch4, Lachesis will be ready for promotion, and that's when it's finally viable to compare her to Holyn. Holyn will have grown and promoted as well by now - going by our previous debate we could place him at L21, which also implies that he has taken from the limited shared pool of field EXP. Holyn L21 Forrest HP: 49.9 Str: 21.7 Mag: 3.4 Skl: 26.1 Spd: 21.7 Def: 15.7 Res: 4.4 Luk: 2.8 Mov: 6 Pursuit, 26.1% Moonlight Hit Swords Holyn using Steel Blade Offensively: 37.7 Atk, 15.7 AS, 110.8 Hit Defensively: 34.2 Avoid, 49.9 HP, 15.7 Def, 4.4 Res Lachesis L20 Master Knight HP: 36.8 Str: 22.0 Mag: 8.9 Skl: 17.8 Spd: 20.6 Def: 17.6 Res: 10.8 Luk: 12.2 Mov: 9 Pursuit, Charisma Swords, Lances, Axes, Bows, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Light, Staves Lachesis using Steel Blade Offensively: 38 Atk, 14.6 AS, 89.5 Hit Defensively: 41.4 Avoid, 36.8 HP, 17.6 Def, 10.8 Res Yeah, I just compared them using the exact same weapon, but as you know Lachesis can do much better than that. Lachesis is a Master Knight: she can do about ANYTHING for your team. She doesn't need to enter the fray for her EXP, but if there's anything tough you need her help for, she's the one to do it. Comparisons between the two against various Ch4 and Ch5 enemies with these stats. Granted, they'll be higher as time goes on, but the general point will get across. - Pirate L20 , 55/11/0/6/13/0/11/2, Iron Axe, -5, (6) Holyn does 2x26.7 to them, leaving them with 1 or 2 HP. He kills with Moonlight Hit, but 54% of the time that won't happen. Lachesis beats him with the Steel Blade that 54% of the time. Or she can just use the Hero Axe nobody else except your already capped Lex can use, and deal 38 damage per blow, killing BEFORE the counter, and having another two blows for backup if she ever misses. - Wind Mage L15, 41/1/11/10/13/0/2/9, Elwind, 11 (10) Both of our units one-round them with the given weapons. However, Lachesis whacks them with the Hero Axe before they can respond, and can switch to a Javelin/Hand Axe to discourage counterattacks. Holyn's best option is a magic sword (which Lachesis can use as well), but from his 3.4 Mag that will do dicky damage. And he's not mounted, so he cannot switch weapons after attacking. The boss of these faggots uses a Sleep Staff btw, and Lachesis can use Restore. - Pegasus Knight L18, 53/12/1/12/17/0/10/8, Slim Lance, Slim Sword, 11 (16 with Slim Sword) (9) [Whatever] Bow Lachesis doubles them when they have Slim Lance equipped for two guaranteed criticals and doesn't take a counterattack at all. Holyn one-rounds with Steel Blade but suffers WTD and can therefore miss and he's taking counters. Boss: Deetva ** - Falcoknight L21, 61/13/9/16/21/0/12/14, Silver Sword, Prayer Ring, 18 What a bitch, Holyn cannot even double her and thus deals ~26 damage, or ~38 with Moonlight Hit. Lachesis with Silver Bow has a massive 40 Mt, so she does 68 damage (Critical's 2 coefficient is calculated before substracting Def in FE4). Even with a Steel Bow she deals like 60, so she can finish off after anyone did even a tiny bit of damage. - Armour L19, 59/14/1/10/8/0/15/1, Javelin, -8 (7) These guys stand near Thove castle, on the opposite of the river. Elwind/Elfire Lachesis does 22.92 = 45.8 damage and can counterattack, Holyn does 232, so again he needs that 46% chance of having Moonlight Hit triggering once. He's not countering their Javelins either without dealing dumb damage with a magic sword. Lachesis can also use Tron if needed (since Tiltyu usually wants the accuracy of Thunder more than the power of Tron since she's usually picking severely weakened low Res units off anyway) to one-round, but that shouldn't be needed. Holyn does a little more damage but not enough to be very significant. - General L20, 60/16/2/12/11/0/18/5, Silver Lance, Steel Bow, -1 (3 with Steel Bow) (3) Holyn does 19.72 makes 39.4 damage, 57.4 if he triggers Moonlight Hit once. And in the meanwhile takes 20 damage in the chest from the Silver Lance which has 89.8 Hit on him. Having WTD sucks. Meanwhile, Lachesis with an Elspell does 17.92 = 35.8 from a safe distance taking 13 damage from that Steel Bow. Or she uses the Hero Axe for 38 Mt, so she's doing 4x20 damage. She kills even if they activate Great Shield once, whereas that totally ruins Holyn's damage output. - Swordfighter L22, 52/13/2/16/16/0/11/2, Hero Sword, 13 (2) Holyn does one-round them with the Steel Blade, but he's also taking 18 damage from their double Hero Sword slashes. Lachesis one-rounds with her trusty Silver Bow without taking counterattacks, and then she can just switch to whatever she pleases. She's also not at risk of the Sleep Sword Swordfighters on Player Phase, and obviously she wins against the Thunder Mages about as badly as against the Wind Mages. Boss: Lamia ** - Swordmaster L25, 65/19/2/22/22/0/14/5, Silver Blade, Life Ring, 16 Talk about a though customer. Holyn should be able to double by now for about 48 damage total, but will again take a counterattack. Lachesis does 35.8 with Elwind without taking a counterattack, so both are two-rounding. Slight win for Holyn for raw damage per hit, but not enough to compensate for the fact that Lachesis never has to take that 24 damage hit unlike Holyn. That about sums it up for Ch4's enemies, both the most common as well the most threatening ones. Lachesis' wins over Holyn range from noticable to massive here, she is definitely the better fighter. Let's see how this is for Ch5, shall we? Both of their levels will now be 25 or so. You can argue it's a little different but if anything, the more goes to Holyn the more field EXP it takes, whereas for Lachesis she is doing better at combat while also having staves as an EXP source. Holyn L25 Forrest HP: 54.3 Str: 22.9 Mag: 3.6 Skl: 27.0 Spd: 22.9 Def: 16.9 Res: 4.6 Luk: 3.6 Mov: 6 Pursuit, 27% Moonlight Hit Swords Lachesis L25 Master Knight HP: 39.8 Str: 24.3 Mag: 9.1 Skl: 18.3 Spd: 21.6 Def: 18.6 Res: 11.3 Luk: 14.2 Mov: 9 Pursuit, Charisma Swords, Lances, Axes, Bows, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Light, Staves Holyn using Steel Blade Offensively: 38.9 Atk, 16.9 AS, 111.2 Hit Defensively: 37.4 Avoid, 54.3 HP, 16.9 Def, 4.6 Res Lachesis using Hero Axe Offensively: 40.3 Atk, 9.6 AS, 99.5 Hit Defensively: 33.4 Avoid, 39.8 HP, 18.6 Def, 11.3 Res Lachesis using Silver Bow Offensively: 42.3 Atk, 13.6 AS, 109.5 Hit Defensively: 41.4 Avoid, 39.8 HP, 18.6 Def, 11.3 Res Lachesis using Elwind Offensively: 23.1 Atk, 19.6 AS, 109.5 Hit Defensively: 53.4 Avoid, 39.8 HP, 18.6 Def, 11.3 Res - Mountain Thief L30 , 65/14/0/9/16/0/14/3, Steel Axe, -2 (5) It's like that Pirate from Ch4 all over again. Holyn does 24.9x2 damage with Steel Blade, and thus has a 53% chance of not killing this guy. Lachesis does 4x26 damage for the easy KO with Hero Axe. Or she does what Holyn does with Steel Blade except no Moonlight Hit, or she does a little more with Silver Bow except she's not taking a counter. Lachesis is, as always, the winner. - Axearmour L17, 57/14/1/10/8/0/15/1, Steel Axe, -10 (5) Holyn doing 23.92 and taking a counter versus Lachesis doing 22.12 with Elwind and not taking a counter, or doing 254 with Hero Axe and one-rounding them. Yeah. - Thunder Mage L17, 43/1/12/14/11/0/2/10, Elthunder, 4 (2) Both one-round, though Lachesis kicks its ass with Hero Axe before they can blink. And Elwind Lachesis has WTA and counters perfectly whereas Holyn's ranged option sucks and he cannot switch weapons after attacking. - General L20, 60/16/2/12/11/0/18/5, Hero Axe, -1 Holyn does 20.92 = 41.8. Lachesis does 18.12 = 36.2 with Elwind or 24.3 * 2 = 48.6 with Silver Bow. And she is not getting countered by that double Hero Axe. Even if Moonlight Hit triggers once, Holyn is not killing. - Axeknight L17, 47/12/1/11/11/0/11/1, Steel Axe, -7 (9) Classic. Lachesis kills these guys with 292 damage from Hero Axe repeatedly. Holyn is stuck leaving them at 1HP if we round his Atk up to 39. Boss: Slaydar * - Great Knight L20, 60/18/2/13/13/0/16/5, Silver Axe, -5 244 damage from the Hero Axe sends this faggot to his grave, whereas Holyn's 2x23 isn't impressing anyone. He'll need Moonlight Hit to mimic Lachesis here again. Lachesis can also just do ranged with Silver Bow again and outdamage Holyn that way. - Archknight L18, 48/12/1/11/11/0/11/1, Hero Bow, 3 (8) This is a total joke. Holyn is again not one-rounding without Moonlight Hit. Lachesis with her Silver Bow does 312 and actually counterattacks. A good case of massive rape. Of course she can use Hero Axe on the player phase to not take a counterattack from them. Boss: Andre **** - Bowknight L22, 60/16/2/14/14/0/14(+5)/5, Hero Bow, Shield Ring, 6 If you're not letting his sister kill this guy, Lachesis does quite nicely. 214 from Hero Axe, down before you know it. Counters on player phase while Holyn is doing 40 damage unless Moonlight Hit triggers. In which case he still isn't one-rounding. We've discussed Generals and obviously neither of our units is going to face Langobart. Now it's time to head into the desert. Yes, Lachesis' movement is being hindered by the sand, but so is Holyn's. I lack exact terrain numbers, but I believe Holyn can walk 3 squares whereas Lachesis walks two. Lachesis being able to move after attacking something will easily compensate for that. - Dragon Knight L18, 58/15/1/12/11/0/16/1, Horseslayer, -5 (13) Oh boohoo, Horseslayer. Before we compare our units defensively here, let's just note that Lachesis RAPES them with her Silver Bow and Holyn obviously leaves them hanging. Now, defensively, it looks like Holyn is finally about to claim some sort of win here. Too bad that even with the Critical bonus they get, they're doing about 31 damage, so Lachesis lives. They do 9 to Holyn, which admittedly isn't much when looking at his HP. Now, the chance that Holyn gets hit is about 65% due to WTD. Lachesis with her Hero Axe actually has WTA over them, so they only have about 30% chance to hit her. If you supply her with Sigurd's leadership, that becomes 20%. If Beowulf's her lover and stands near her, that becomes 10%. Holyn with the same treatment (leadership + lover) plus the Charisma from Lachesis (!) has a 35% chance to get hit now. Looking at the overall picture, they both survive a good bunch of assaults, only Lachesis is doing better offensively in both phases, and defensively winning on player phase due to not getting countered. Does that mean...Lachesis wins even against these guys? Boss: Magorn ** - Dragon Master L25, 70/19/2/16/14/0/21(+5)/2, Hero Lance, Shield Ring, 2 Another easy kill for Lachesis' Silver Bow of doom before he can even put up resistance. Over 80 effective Mt is nothing to sneeze at. Holyn? 2x13 damage, needs 3 rounds to kill. He needs 2 Moonlight Hits to be able to one-round him. And then he is still getting countered for 17x2 damage with WTA and good accuracy in general for his opponent. This just screams "Lachesis is winning". - Firemage L18 *, 44/1/15/11/11/0/2/10, Meteo, Elfire, -1 (-19 with Meteo) (6) Nothing fancy here, they just do more damage with Meteo to Holyn than to Lachesis. I could show results of Holyn and Lachesis versus Reptor's army if you like, or any other enemy in Ch4 and Ch5, and Lachesis would be the winner, or at least tie in the absolute worst case. And this is all not taking into account that Lachesis is giving everyone around her Charisma bonus, she's making Beowulf or even Azel better with a lover bonus and...she has staves! Free EXP alone is still a big plus, but besides that it obviously keeps your army alive. Got hit by these dumb Sleep Priests in the Desert? Lachesis can use Restore. Need general healing? Lachesis has the most healing range of EVERYBODY. Fury is mounted but has no Libro, Levin/Aideen/Claude can use Libro but have less movement. Lachesis is both mounted and can use Libro. Need to transport people from Thove to your home castle or Silesia in Ch4, or from the fray at Barhara to a usable castle? Lachesis can use both Return and Warp. Need your entire army cured? Lachesis can Reserve. Lachesis is by far the most versatile unit in the game when she promotes, and arguably as good as Holy weapon users at fighting, at least better than Holyn. The only thing that Holyn has over her is that he is fighting in chapters 2 and 3, but that is a double-edged sword as he's taking EXP away from others, and nearly your entire army could fight in his stead. Also, forgot to factor in her conversation with Beowulf that boosts her stats. Heh.


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