Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs CATS

Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs CATS
Super Saiyan SolidSense	Nov 20 2007, 07:20 PM
Posts: 896 Group: FEFFer Member #1,311 Joined: June 15, 2007	This is my first official debaet with you, the debater who inspired me to become a debater, so this is pretty epic for me. I guess, judging from Inui’s comment, it’s pretty epic anyway. Let’s give the audience a dazzling performance, then. Let’s duel...nob. Kent vs. Erk I’ll start off with a comparison at 18/0. For Supports, Erk’s got Pent and Priscilla and Serra. Kent’s got Sain, Fiora, and Lyn. Then I left out the garbage on both sides, such as Nino and Wallace (and Heath isn’t total garbage, but he’s late, so I left him out too). There may be contestation on the use of Lyn, so let’s get that out of the way first. It’s not imperative to my case, as Fiora exists, but I do feel that Lyn is underrated on FEFF, so I'll press the point. Earlygame, she has among the best offense, due to huge Speed during the period of the game where your units double the least. A hierarchy of Speed values for earlygame: 17/0 Matthew (19.8) > 12/0 Guy (19.3) > 13/0 Lyn (16.2) > 13/0 Florina (15.6) > 5/0 Raven (15) > 11/0 Lucius (13.2) > 13/0 Erk (13.0) > 13/0 Kent (12.4) > 20/2 Marcus (11.2) > 13/0 Sain (10.8) > 9/0 Eliwood (10.2) > 8/0 Rebecca (10.2) > 10/0 Lowen (9.4) > 11/0 Wil (8.6)> 9/0 Hector (7.8) > 16/0 Oswin (7.1) Only Guy and Matthew beat her, and it's largely irrelevant (highest AS in Whereabouts is a Myrmidon with 12, which she gets). Lyn also has Mani Katti, for h4x against Armors/Cavaliers. She’s possibly your best offensive unit early on (Guy has 1-2 Str but her Florina Support is faster than his Matthew Support, and Mani Katti > what's left) until others start to double more often. Her Support roster is also full of speedy Supports with people who want to Support her. Her Florina, Rath, Kent, Wil, and Hector Supports are all incredibly fast (54-81 turns to A). Eliwood/Wallace are also decent. Her Florina Support in particular is uberfast--fastest in the game, in fact, barring Pent-Louise. She caps level later on but continues to have high Speed, good Avo (59-66 Avo depending on Support setup at 20/0, and 75-82 at 20/10), and 20-25 Crit from Supports. You’ll also want to use her if you want to recruit Geitz, and she’s a necessary deployment in several chapters in the game (training her = your free unit slot isn’t wasted + she’s easier to keep alive). If Eliwood isn’t in play (what, he's bottom of High on Reikken’s tier list? That’s definitely nowhere near “always in play” or anything), Lyn’s promotion is fine. When he is in play, she promotes later sometimes, but then she helps out the lategame EXP Rank too, which is tough due to your units being high levelled. And she's arguably better at it than Matthew and Nino, since the former costs a lot of money and the latter is frail and will have to be babied. Then there's this: CATS If applying a certain resource to one unit improves them by X amount, and applying it to another unit also improves that unit by the exact same X amount, and those are the only two units that can use that resource, then there's absolutely no reason one unit would get that resource over the other. Whether or not one unit is better overall than the other has no relevance whatsoever. Their inherent worth is the same. Assuming one unit has a worth of 20, the other has a worth of 10, and applying the resource improves a unit's worth by 5, then we have these two situations: Give it to Unit A. Now you have 25 + 10 = 35 total. Give it to Unit B. Now you have 20 + 15 = 35 total. wtfh4x, they're the same? What? The fact that Eliwood is better doesn't mean he makes better use of a promo item. His promo gains aren't magically doubled because you decided to promote him first. His overall worth as a unit, and what he does with a promo item, are two entirely different things. And seeing as how we're judging who gets the promo item here, it's the latter which is relevant to this discussion. Nope, I’m not saying that Lyn is the best FE unit ever or even close to it. I’m just saying that it’s perfectly possible for Kent to be able to Support Lyn. And, if not, substituting in Fiora doesn’t do him much harm (it’s still a fast Support, and Fiora is mounted, unlike Lyn, making it even faster; it’s just a bit later). Now that we've gotten Lyn out of the way, let's get to the actual, direct Kent vs. Erk stuff. Now, Erk doesn’t have Pent for a while, so he’ll have either Priscilla or Serra, depending on which one you’re using. The only way he’d have both is if both were in play, obviously, but depending on playstyle you might not even want to use two healers. Even if you are using them both, the Serra one is massively slow, so it’s not around for a good while (A Priscilla is 76 turns, whereas C Serra is 79...). I’ll assume A Priscilla for now. 18/0 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn or B Fiora) Irn Lance: 24.8 Atk, 123.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 14.6 AS \| 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo Javelin: 23.8 Atk, 108.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 12.6 AS \| 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 42.6 Avo Stl Sword: 25.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 13.6 AS \| 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 44.6 Avo Klr Lance: 27.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 49.3 Crit, 14.6 AS \| 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo 18/0 Erk (A Priscilla) Fiyah: 17.8 Atk, 126.7 Hit, 21.4 Crit, 15.5 AS \| 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 46.1 Avo Thundah: 20.8 Atk, 116.7 Hit, 26.4 Crit, 14.5 AS \| 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 44.1 Avo Well, Erk has 1 point of AS, and Kent has 7 points of Atk with base weapons. With a Killer Lance, that changes to 10, and Kent has a lot more Crit, as well; if Erk wields Thunder then the AS lead vanishes but Kent retains 8 points of Atk and 24 Crit. Sure, Erk attacks Res, but that isn’t going to help him win this bout. Taking some random enemy stat examples from Chapters 19x-23, here are the differences in Def and Res (positive if Def is greater, negative if Res is greater): Peg Knight: -2 Mage: -3 Knight: +8 Shaman: -4 Brigand: +2 Nomad: +2 Cavalier: +5 Merc: +4 Soldier: 0 Fighter: +1 Myrmidon: +1 Archer: +2 Thief: -1 Wyvern Rider: +9 Monk: -9 Against Peg: Kent by 10 Against Mage: Kent by 11 Against Knight: Tie Against Shaman: Kent by 12 Against Brigand: Kent by 6 Against Nomad: Kent by 6 Against Cavalier: Kent by 3 Against Merc: Kent by 4 Against Soldier: Kent by 8 Against Fighter: Kent by 7 Against Myrmidon: Kent by 8 Against Archer: Kent by 6 Against Thief: Kent by 9 Against Wyvern: Erk by 1 Against Monk: Kent by 17 Assuming Killer Lance vs. Thunder, Erk wins damage by 0 against the Knight, but Kent has a significant Crit lead, so Kent is winning. Erk wins by 1 against the Wyvern Rider, but that’s the only victory for him, and suffice it to say it doesn’t come near matching over 20 Crit. Other Wyverns and Knights have higher Def-Res gaps (10 appears to be the highest in Kinship’s Bond), so that can be counted as a victory for Erk, but it’s minor at any rate; Kent’s damage leads are easily more decisive. So Erk wins against some high-Def enemies, whereas Kent wins against everything else. And Wyverns and Knights are not more common than all of the other enemies combined. Especially since Erk’s victory against those Wyverns and Knights is so small when it does exist. But that’s not all. Kent also does more damage to bosses, since they actually have decent Res. Behold: Darin: 16 Def, 14 Res Paul: 12 Def, 10 Res Cameron: 11 Def, 12 Res Eubans: 12 Def, 15 Res Aion: 7 Def, 18 Res Again assuming Killer Lance (or Killing Edge for Paul) vs. Thunder, Kent does 6 more damage to Darin and Paul per blow, 9 more damage to Cameron per blow, 11 more damage to Eubans per blow, and 19 more damage to Aion per blow (Erk probably can’t even attack Aion since the Kishuna Barrier is up that chapter), with a significant Crit lead against each. And Kent’s Killer Lances are readily available from Dragon’s Gate and onwards (even if they weren’t, the Atk difference is still 7 for Iron Lance vs. Fire, and Steel Sword vs. Thunder would only be reduced by 1, to 6; he could also still use Steel Lances against slower enemies such as Knights and go back up to 8). Aside from the Atk, the Crit is also very relevant. They’re not 2HKOing everything, so being able to have a chance to crit is helpful. Even if it’s not extremely reliable, it’s something to which Erk has no answer. And 50ish Crit is especially nice when Killer Weapons have already-decent Might to boot. There are effective weapons that you get here and there as well. They’re limited, but Kent’s one of the primary candidates for using them since he has such huge Move to outrange enemies, avoiding a need to lure in tough enemies against which you’d want to use such weapons. Like that Swordmaster in VoD. Of course, by that time, you can actually purchase some of those weapons as well, so Kent becomes even more likely to have them available. In the face of these facts, Kent wins offense quite easily. Defensively, they have about the same Avo. Kent has 5 more Def and 6-7 more HP and Erk has 4-5 more Res, and physical enemies are more common than magical enemies, so Kent’s winning. Against Axes and Swords, Kent can also get +1 Def/+15 Avo to add onto that, strengthening his defensive lead. Erk has 1-2 Range, yes, but he can only exploit that on Player Phase, for one. For two, enemies almost always have < 100% chance to hit our duo. That means that the chance of two attacks landing is a lot smaller than the chance of just one landing, and Kent needs to take two attacks to Erk's one for Erk to have a shot at winning durability. To demonstrate: a 100-Hit enemy has ~58% chance (real) to hit either of our units. The chance of two attacks striking Kent = ~34%, whereas the chance of one attack striking Erk = 58%. And Kent might have WTA, as well. And you can only take one blow on Player Phase, but you can take several blows on Enemy Phase, so the 2:1 ratio is ruined by that, as well. And even then, even if you're horribly biased to Erk and consider two blows of physical attacks to Kent compared to his one: A 13 Atk enemy attacks Kent twice, for 1.8 damage each time. A 13 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 6.6 damage. In two hits, Kent has taken 3.6 damage, 3 _less_ than Erk, and that’s without considering possible WTA, in which case it’d be less than a point of damage per hit and with a lower chance for each blow to connect. Something stronger, perhaps? A 16 Atk enemy attacks Kent twice, for 4.8 damage each time. A 16 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 9.6 damage. In two hits, Kent has taken 9.6 damage, the same damage as Erk. WTA makes him take 2 less than Erk, with -15% to take each. Stronger still? An 18 Atk enemy attacks Kent twice, for 6.8 damage each time. An 18 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 11.6 damage. In two hits, Kent has taken 13.6 damage, only 2 more than Erk (gogogo 6-7 HP lead). WTA reduces that to 0 more damage to Kent, with -15% to take each. So the potential advantage that Erk gains from 1-2 Range is incredibly marginal. When Kent wields Javelin, however, Erk’s 1-2 Range durability advantage entirely disappears, whereas Kent’s durability advantages remain (and as time goes on, Kent can wield Javelin/Hand Axe more and more often as he starts to 2HKO things). Against 1-2 Range enemies, Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage for durability similarly disappears. You’re also frequently finishing wounded enemies off (either enemies that got damaged on Enemy Phase or were attacked on Player Phase by another unit), so neither will take damage back on Player Phase and both will on Enemy Phase, in which case it’s clear to me who wins. Then there is the possibility of Kent OHKOing, as well. A level 6 Peg Knight, for example, with 20 HP/5 Def gets OHKO’d by Killer Lance Kent, so that means Kent takes no damage on Player Phase from it. In all of these cases, it would then be the same differences, only not doubled for Kent: Quote: A 13 Atk enemy attacks Kent once, for 1.8 damage. A 13 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 5.6 damage. A 16 Atk enemy attacks Kent once, for 4.8 damage. A 16 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 8.6 damage. An 18 Atk enemy attacks Kent once, for 6.8 damage. An 18 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 10.6 damage. +possible WTA Erk’s marginal leads vs. Kent’s clear and heavy leads. Durability goes to Kent. And then Kent has more Move for visiting villages and rescuing and other miscellaneous tasks. Reaching more enemies makes his offense effectively better, as well. Yes, Erk does have better Move through Forests (the only form of terrain worth noting in this comparison, as Erk can’t cross Mountains/Peaks). Plains are far more common than Forests, however. And then, the most common situation involving terrain is Kent and Erk wanting to get into a single space of terrain for the defensive bonuses rather than going through a whole bunch of it. Kent uses up one more Move than Erk does in this case, but he already has 2 more, so he’s still winning. w1nn4r = Kent, by a mile. 20/10 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn or B Fiora) Slvr Lan: 37.2 Atk, 132.8 Hit, 22.5 Crit, 20.5 AS \| 45.8 HP, 16.0 Def, 11.0 Res, 60.6 Avo Kilr Axe: 34.2 Atk, 122.8 Hit, 52.5 Crit, 20.5 AS \| 45.8 HP, 16.0 Def, 11.0 Res, 60.6 Avo Javelin: 29.2 Atk, 122.8 Hit, 22.5 Crit, 20.5 AS \| 45.8 HP, 16.0 Def, 11.0 Res, 60.6 Avo 20/10 Erk (A Priscilla/B Pent) Thundah: 26.2 Atk, 142.1 Hit, 33.6 Crit, 20.9 AS \| 39.2 HP, 13.6 Def, 21.2 Res, 70.2 Avo Elfiyah: 28.2 Atk, 147.1 Hit, 28.6 Crit, 16.9 AS \| 39.2 HP, 13.6 Def, 21.2 Res, 62.2 Avo Offense again. Kent’s got about 9-11 points of Atk on Erk and a substantial Crit lead when he’s wielding Killer (with Killer, Kent wins all of the important offensive stats against Erk with Elfiyah and only loses by .4 AS against Erk with Thunder, oh noz). The Def-Res gap still doesn’t tilt things in Erk’s favor. Heroes have around 5-6, Snipers 1-2, Warriors 5, Paladins 3, Berserkers 4, Wyvern Lords 9, Generals 8, Swordmasters 0-1, etc. Then Magic Users and such actually have much greater Res than Def (Bishops/Valkyries/Druids have 14-point gaps on average by endgame, quite a large margin--I even see 17's and 18's). Bosses also continue to have similar Def and Res stats, so Kent’s Atk lead matters just as much as before. The only things with over 10 in their Def-Res gaps are Knights and Wyvern Riders, which are unpromoted, so both of the units in our duo 2HKO those anyway. And Kent still has those effective weapons. Defensively, 6-7 HP and 2-3 Def vs. 10 Res and 9-10 Avo (only 2-3 with Elfire, lawl). With WTA, that’s +1 Def/+15 Avo for Kent against Axes, Lances, and Swords, so a lot of the time the Avo lead is actually on Kent’s side (barring some areas of Victory or Death or other maps where the enemies are diverse in small groups). Erk leads against Magic users, Kent leads against physical. Yes, Erk’s lead is greater against magical than Kent’s is against physical, but there are two times as many physical enemies as there are magical enemies in most chapters, aside from CoD or something, and with a Silver Lance Kent can outrange and OHKO many Magic Users before they even get a chance to attack him, so the point is fairly moot. As for 1-2 Range, Kent is using Javelin/Hand Axe very frequently now (against most of the unpromoted enemies), so that’s diminished quite a bit in usage. The situations named above exist to combat it, as well (finishing off an enemy, facing increasingly common 1-2 Range enemies, OHKOing, etc.). Kent also continues to have more Move for a lot more offensive h4x and other miscellaneous uses, same as before. Erk has Staves now, sure, but neither is he very good with Staves, nor do Staves manage to override Kent’s Mounted status. First off, Erk starts with only an E in Staves, worse than every other Staff user barring Canas (Lucius starts at C, Pent at A, and even Renault has an A; Priscilla and Serra will most likely be at A’s as well). So right there he’s one of your worst Staff users. With 17.2 Mag at 20/10, he loses to 20/15 Serra (19.5), 20/10 Priscilla (18.4), 20/10 Pent (19.2), 20/10 Lucius (23.8), and 20/8 Canas (18.5), winning only against Renault alone, who phails at life. This means that he has lower Staff Range and healing power than all of them. Meanwhile, Kent is among the best at doing his job (being a mobile unit, which is aided by having better and better offense and defense), if not the best. Kent’s durability stands solidly. Lowen is the only one who clearly beats him. Sain’s pretty similar. Isadora can get a lot more Avo through Supports but loses it when she wields...almost anything, lol. And not to mention her Supports are late. Marcus gets doubled by the faster enemies, despite having similar parameters otherwise. Fiora/Florina obviously don’t compete (Avo-reliant units losing Avo from almost everything they wield is fairly bad). Heath's Supports are late and his AS is pretty low. That takes care of most of them (except Vaida, but no one caerz about her, so meh). And then his offense is possibly the very best out of all your mounted units (including your flyers): 20/1 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn-Fiora) = 19.6 Atk, 16.5 Spd, 11 Con 20/1 Sain (A Kent/B Serra) = 24.8 Atk, 14.6 Spd, 11 Con 20/1 Florina (A Lyn/B Fiora) = 17.6 Atk, 18.8 Spd, 5 Con 20/1 Fiora (A Florina/B Kent) = 18.5 Atk, 19.0 Spd, 6 Con 20/1 Lowen (A Rebecca/B Eliwood) = 18.4 Atk, 13.4 Spd, 12 Con 20/7 Marcus (A Lowen/B Eliwood) = 18.8 Atk, 12.5 Spd, 11 Con 20/3 Isadora (no Supports yet) = 13.6 Atk, 17.0 Spd, 6 Con 17/0 Heath (no Supports yet) = 17 Atk, 11.5 Spd, 9 Con He very clearly defeats everyone except for Sain (he loses Spd to Florina, Fiora, and Isadora, but he has a ton more Con for actually using heavy weapons without AS loss), and it's arguable against Sain. With 2nd best defense and 1st-2nd best offense, Kent is going to be your best bet for performing mobility tasks. Plus, he Supports two other mobile units (Sain and Fiora), so they can often be coming along with him. Being h4x at a task >>> sucking at a task. Kent’s pretty clearly the winner. Then there’s your own LHM-abuse argument. Kent can be Lundgren-abused in LHM and promoted, providing you with a Jeiganesque figure in the main game to use, and one with substantially better growths than Marcus— HP/Str/Skl/Spd/Def/Res/Luck Kent’s growths: 85/40/50/45/25/25/20 Marcus’ growths: 65/30/50/25/15/35/30 lol h4x’d. Kent has higher growths in everything except Res and Luck, and 20% more for Speed growth. Is it a huge point in Kent’s favor? No, but it does exist, and it can’t be written away. It’s something that Kent can do and Erk can’t, and Erk has no answer to it. Kent debaet-cruxes Erk.
	this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER

Solid vs CATS · Debates