Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Sentenal

Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Sentenal
Mekkah	Nov 28 2007, 10:28 AM
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Quote: Well, okay, lets get started with this bastard. I'm not going to let you smother me with numbers. I'll do it with arguments then. Obligatory good luck wishing here. Quote: First, your early point, with the EXP rank. Lachesis does indeed gain more levels than Holyn. She does indeed drawn from the healing EXP pool as well. However, it seems that all your arguements leading up to Lachesis' promotion is that gaining more levels>Anything else. And just look at some of the things you are suggesting doing! I won't pretend that gaining more levels is >all. However, it certainly is an important aspect of it. Quote: If this isn't babying, I don't know what is. Lets just talk about some of this stuff. One, you are having a unit fight repeatedly in the arena, getting his ass kicked every time, just for Lachesis to heal. Now, let me quote something else you said: "You need to level up every unit to their maximum potential to stand a chance at reaching the amount of required level-ups." Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but how does suiciding a person time after time help that person level up to their maximum potential? It looks me me like you are having them sitting around, artifically boosting Lachesis' level at the cost of their own. Not to mention doing this will kill their weapon, causing you to have to spend more money, and cost you alot of money in staves (and since she is sitting there healing, she isn't getting money from villages or with the theif sword). It's not babying. It would be babying if other units and ranks were hurt or denied kills or something. Indeed, if a unit stays behind with Lachesis, he might be deprived of EXP from the field campaign. But that EXP suddendly isn't lost or anything: it will go to other units. You can leave your most retarded combat unit at that point behind with Lachesis. That would be Ardan, but since Ardan is going to the beach to find a Pursuit Ring, you can use someone else who isn't much of a help in the first part of Chapter 2, and then Ardan take over the slacking since he's useless anyway. A good candidate for this would be Dew. He has to get near Lachesis to give her the Thief Sword anyway. Of course they shouldn't be standing next to each other too much so they don't fall in love, but that's easy since entering and then exiting a castle allows you to move the remainder of your movement. Both Ardan and Dew are pretty good at not kicking ass in the arena of Ch2. There is no way Dew ever gets past Lovin the Lanceknight, let alone the Lance Armor. Ardan MIGHT get past those if he's uber lucky (he will get a bazillion attempts and the Pursuit Ring after all), but the Thunder Mage with Shield Ring is too much for him. They're not missing out on anything, really. Your mounted units will conquer Heirhein before turn 11 to get the crucial Bargain Ring, so these two are never making it there to begin with. Dew can technically make it to the Free Knight army if he hurries up, but he'd likely only get one or two chances to steal 2000G and he deals like 5 damage while risking death, so he is more of a hinder than a help. Then against the Armors of Amphony (or Heirhein for that matter) he doesn't do anything. After your goal becomes McKeily and Augustia, Dew can tag along with everyone else while Ardan takes over. He is in grave danger against McKeily's Fire Mages and also gets doubled by both the Swordfighters and the Bowfighters, and might get put to sleep by Clement. Then you rush to Augustria and there's Javelin Armors and a bunch of mounted units he sucks against. Better off letting your 6, 8 and 9 move units go for the tactics rating. So, these two would be useless if you keep them in the "main army", and they are much more useful if they keep Lachesis company. The second point you brought up is money loss. Well, here's the news: Holyn fighting with his Iron or Steel Blade is costing money as well. Less per use than Lachesis' Live Staff, yes, but don't pretend his leveling is free. And money isn't an issue, even if Lachesis isn't getting any villages. She comes with freaking 10,000G: she can repair her own Live Staff twice with that if you completely break it. Add 2500G from the first two levels of the arena which she can easily beat, perhaps even 4500G or 7000G if she manages to trigger Prayer with her Prayer Sword against the next opponents. No need for it, but hey, it's there. Then she can sell her Prayer Sword for ~4000G since she doesn't need it after getting the maximum out of the arena, and the Thief Sword for 500G. And then Chapter 2 ends, and she gets the Knight Ring which is worth 20,000G. In Chapter 3 she also gets money because you kept all allied castles intact (if you don't, your tactics rank drops), and for some last minute repairing she gets she insanely pricy Earth Sword from Elthsan which can be sold for 5000G. There is no funds rank or anything, so as long as Lachesis has enough money to have enough stave uses left to promote, she is a-okay. She only needs 1800EXP to promote, which is 120 times using Live, and she can already afford 100 of that with her starting money. So Lachesis can heal, promote and still buy Christmas presents for Elthsan, Beowulf AND Fin without getting red numbers on her credit card. The unit that's losing in the arena loses a really small amount of money. Iron Swords cost just 1000G to buy (and since you likely can get one from the Pawn Shop where it's used, it's even cheaper), and when it's broken there is no need to repair it since you can just proceed to use it in the arena. For absolutely free, with a nearly guaranteed loss. They only need to fight every 2-3 turns too, because Lachesis doesn't heal their HP completely yet. Or you could leave Aideen/Ethlin with them if you wanted to so you can heal more often every turn and so they can sell their staves to other people later, such as Claude, Levin, Fury and...Lachesis. I'd like you to define babying for me, because it seems to imply that someone else in your army is losing out, or your rank is losing out. But all I see is that you are putting two offensively retarded units to good use to realize a really good unit's amazing potential. I mean, who else can say they improve this much from a promotion? We're talking about +7/+0/+7/+4/+7/+0 and 7 extra weapons here. Now, Holyn, he is actually using a resource that others want to use. And he cannot one-round Armors without getting Moonlight Hit twice, so he will need some kill set up for him. It's almost as if :gasp: Holyn is being babied! Quote: Holyn? Well, he doesn't have the stave pool to draw EXP from, but Holyn also has an advantage that Lachesis doesn't, at least for now. The Arena EXP pool. Holyn is one of your most powerful units, and one of few who can actually complete the Arena. The more levels and EXP that he gets from the arena, the less EXP he needs to get from combat, taking EXP away from other people. And, he gets all his EXP easily. Holyn basically kills nearly every single unit he fights in one round, during chapter 2. Moonlight hit + High STR + High SPD=Offensive monster. When playing, you we have two objectives. One, obviously, is getting the best ranks possible. The second one, which goes without saying normally, is completing the game. Holyn plowing through chapters 2 and 3 TONS better than Lachesis does, helps you complete the game easier than any advantage a Master Knight Lachesis might have over Holyn later on. "At least now" indeed. It's like Holyn's only true victory, better rub it in. Yes, Holyn can gain more levels than Lachesis in the arena. But can he play the arena all day long? No, he still has to get field EXP, and Lachesis doesn't at all. High this, high that. Holyn isn't destroying everything in one round. Moonlight Hit isn't guaranteed, and he needs it TWICE to one-round Armors. With 20 Skl, he's not triggering anything 64% of the time. I'll give him that he can one-round things like Free Knights, Swordfighters, Fire Mages and lolLongArcs though. But then you tried to hold the fact that Lachesis one-rounding things in Ch4 and Ch5 against me because she would be preventing others from EXP. Apparently only Holyn is allowed to say he helps the team by one-rounding. You can only get ranks if you complete the game, and one of the ranks is actually determined by how quickly you complete the game, so I don't see why you're trying to make them into seperate points. I suppose Holyn is technically helping this quick-seizing a little bit more during Ch2 and Ch3. However, let's try to imagine what happens if we leave Holyn off the team. You lose a combat unit - a good one, fair enough, but it's just a combat unit. How many others do you have that fight and kill and do what Holyn does? At this point, you have 13 of them, not counting Dew, Ardan, Lachesis, Ethlin, Aideen, Sylvia and Deirdre as fighters for obvious reasons (though Ethlin can fight with her Light Sword). How much of an impact is it going to have whether you have 13 or 14 combat units? I'd wager not much at all. If Holyn made completing chapters possible, or faster by a really high amount, you would have a point. As it is, Holyn's total contribution might be like...2, 3 turns off the tactics rank maybe? Whereas Lachesis is gaining about 9 of these precious level-ups in this chapter and then 9 in Ch3 and then 10 in the next two, which is completely necessary to S-rank. I'd wager Master Knight Lachesis is contributing more to that rank than anything else too, considering her insane amount of staff utility while also being able to remove 99% of the enemies with no sweat at all. Quote: So, lets take this to the next level. Any unit getting beyond 20 levels of EXP, is lessening the amount of EXP that other units can get, if they are getting it through combat. And doing that makes getting the EXP rank that much harder. If you think about it like this, Lachesis fighting past level 22ish, when she finally ABLE to attack, hurts your EXP rank. Holyn, on the other hand, needs to gain as many levels as he possibily can, do help the EXP rank as much as he can. Holyn needs to fight all the way to level 30. Holyn fighting beyond L22 gains just as much EXP as Lachesis does. The difference is that he HAS to do field combat, and is also worse at it than Master Knight Lachesis, while Lachesis also has an alternative that allows her to not fight at all, which in turn allows other units (such as Holyn) to take her share of combat EXP. If Holyn needs all the field EXP he can get to L30 while Lachesis can do it without interfering with other units' resources at all, would that be a point to Holyn or a point to Lachesis? Whether Holyn gets to L30 is a good question in itself too, because I'm sure there's plenty of people who are still below L20 even in Chapter 5 (think Tiltyu, Ardan, Dew, perhaps Noish), and those would gain a lot more than Holyn from attacking or killing something. Quote: Now then. Lots of your examples has Lachesis one rounding them, and Holyn leaving them at low health. Now, Lachesis also shouldn't be fighting, letting other people get EXP. She already got her 20 levels, and can just ride the rest out on healing. Holyn fighting, gets him EXP, and against certain enemies, doesn't kill them, which allows for WEAKER units, who you HAVE to level up, get an easy kill. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Lachesis cannot weaken things for others to kill? If anything she does it BETTER than Holyn, because - she doesn't take counterattacks from 1-range people, while Holyn does - her amazing weapon versatility allows her to pick the perfect weapon for not one-rounding. All Holyn has for tuning his damage amount is going with an Iron Sword or something, whereas Lachesis can theoretically do any amount of damage to about any enemy. - she's mounted, so she can step aside to make room for someone like Tiltyu or Dew to finish off a crippled enemy - she's mounted, so she can reach more enemies, pick an enemy that's easier to finish off for the weak unit (for example, units outside of leadership range) - she's mounted, so she's at the frontlines earlier, so she can work together with Leg Ring Tiltyu/Dew/Ardan - she's mounted, so if she's weakening for units that have low movement she can still catch up with the rest of the group afterwards - her Charisma gives these babied units a slight boost in hit and evade - she can use a staff whenever there's nothing to weaken - she's able to one-round other things on the field if the weaker unit's protection is a priority, or if that weaker unit already found another target to pick off And if Holyn triggers Moonlight Hit against something he would normally leave at anywhere between 1 and the difference between his Atk and the enemy's Def, then he is killing. Based on the RNG, something you cannot control. Lachesis doesn't run that risk at all. You've also left Lachesis' amazing staff utility, Charisma boost to others and lover boost during the endgame completely uncountered, while those certainly help complete chapters faster, especially the ability to Warp/Return people. And of course healing allows other units to advance faster as well. Don't give me the "healing doesn't complete chapters" bullshit. Seizing is the only thing that completes chapters - Holyn can fight all day long and kill bosses, but it won't complete chapters. Your fighters actually need healing once in a while (this game doesn't even have Vulneraries, Elixirs or en-route forts to make up for it) or they, you know, die. If Sigurd is put to Sleep, is Holyn going to wake him up and save 4 turns of waiting? No? He doesn't help complete the chapter at that point then. Do you have an assload of other fighters who could take Holyn's job at killing stuff? Yes, you do. What effect would removing Holyn from the game have? 16 less levels on the EXP rank, actually you'd lose less than that because others now gain more field EXP and thus have a higher level potential. What effect would removing Lachesis from the game have? Besides misc stuff like having to fight Elthsan, not getting the Earth Sword, Knight Ring and Thief Sword, you miss out on 28 levels of EXP, a bunch of healing utility, a force more massive than Holyn's in Ch4 and Ch5, and one unit wouldn't get a lover and therefore no lover bonus. Quote: Lachesis already getting those 20 levels is good for nothing other than the EXP rank. If she fights more, she hurts it. Holyn fighting more, doesn't. And then you have Holyn being vastly superior earlygame. Holyn>Lachesis. Woah. According to your logic, if Lachesis didn't have staves ever, her fighting beyond 20s wouldn't hurt EXP, because she needs the EXP to get to L30 now. Despite the fact that she is getting the same amount. Needing something other field units want (EXP) > not needing that something. What you see in the game is that Lachesis can ride to L30 without knowing what an enemy unit is, but that is merely a consequence of a positive property: not needing field EXP. The fact that she trumps Holyn at fighting during Ch4 and Ch5 but doesn't need to do it and thereby frees up EXP for others shows just how hax she is. So: Ch2 Lachesis allows two craptastic units to be good for something and boosts the EXP rank by 9 levels. She obtains the Thief Sword and the Knight Ring. Negatives: ohno she spends gold Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Ch3 Lachesis boosts the EXP rank by another 9 levels. She obtains the Earth Sword and she scares Elthsan away. She can actually heal and do the Charisma thing on the field now due to lack of dumb NPC Paladins, so she also supports the team. (maybe promoted) Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Ch4 Lachesis promotes, and from here does whatever you need her to. Heal the team, weaken enemies (for Holyn, perhaps), kill enemies (and maybe save a turn or two on your tactics rank), Charisma support, Warp/Return people, save villages. Negatives: every time she attacks, she is taking a bit of EXP that others could have gotten. Promoted Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Or maybe he's weakening just like Lachesis can except do it worse. Or maybe he is accidentally triggering Moonlight Hit and killing something that you were reserving for Tiltyu. Too bad, Tiltyu, should've asked Lachesis instead! Ch5 Lachesis: See above, minus promoting because she did that already. Promoted Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Or maybe he's weakening just like Lachesis can except do it worse. Or maybe he is accidentally triggering Moonlight Hit and killing something that you were reserving for Tiltyu. Too bad, Tiltyu, should've asked Lachesis instead! So overall, looking at what you need to S-rank... Complete the game in 400 or fewer turns. If we're nice to Holyn, he saves 6-7 turns or so here. Lachesis using Warp/Return/healing/Charisma'ing allies so they can advance faster > that, easily. And then you add Lachesis' possibility to speed up Ch4 and Ch5 with her own superior fighting abilities, and obviously she has a horse... Level up 982 times or more. Holyn levels up 16 times, using arena and field EXP. Lachesis levels up 28 times, and can do it with just staves and a bit of the arena. Have everyone live. Holyn...doesn't die. Lachesis doesn't either. But Lachesis also makes other people survive with staves and Charisma. Guess who helps more with that? Have three or fewer total unit defeats/battle losses. Kinda like above - Holyn doesn't really do anything for survival ranks. Lachesis owns Holyn at everything, even at incest.


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