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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Dec 1 2007, 06:50 PM |
 
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Neither of us has used “%::%” yet. And we’re both LotErs. Shame. Thus, I shall commence by saying this: %::%
Indeed. You and I both know that that quote was merely meant to be a joke. You even followed through by quoting me from that same Lyn debaet. So lol @ actually countering it. Now on to the real stuff.
Irrelevant. Whenever you use someone below Top/top of High, you’re trading a good unit for a worse one. By that logic, most Mid Tiers are entirely invalidated for Support consideration. Trading a good unit for a worse one isn’t exclusive to Lyn vs. Eliwood. And exactly who determined that Eliwood is so much >>> Lyn? 10/0 Eliwood: 9.1 Atk, 10.6 AS | 25.2 HP, 7.7 Def, 3.1 Res, 32.3 Avo 14/0 Lyn (LHM level lead): 9.2 Atk, 16.8 AS | 25.1 HP, 4.6 Def, 3.9 Res, 45.7 Avo (Florina gives Lyn a couple points of Atk, whereas Hector gives Eliwood a couple points of Def, so meh.) Looks like Lyn is winning here. More AS/Avo (and, as outlined above, the AS matters a lot early on), similar Atk/HP/Res, less Def. Then later on: 20/1 Eliwood (A Hector/B Lowen): 18.5 Atk, 15.6 AS, 19.3 Crt | 37.2 HP, 15.7 Def, 13.6 Res, 71.8 Avo 20/1 Lyn (A Florina/B Kent): 18.6 Atk, 19.3 AS, 35.1 Crt | 32.3 HP, 8.8 Def, 10.7 Res, 59 Avo Lyn wins offense (same Atk, more Crit and AS), Eliwood wins defense. Lyn also has Bows for avoiding melee counterattacks on Player Phase, so that narrows the durability gap (concrete durability is obviously better, as I showed in my Kent vs. Erk comparison earlier, but the difference becomes a lot smaller). Eliwood is probably winning at this point since the durability gap is greater than the offense gap, but Lyn was winning earlier in the game, so they’re about even overall. Earlygame is arguably harder due to fewer Supports, PC Avoid not being as reliable, and enemy growths sucking compared to PC growths, so I’d say that Lyn is actually the winner overall. Even if Eliwood does end up winning the game as a whole, however, the margin between them isn’t anything huge at all, as you can see (offense vs. defense, prepromotion vs. postpromotion). Certainly not enough to merit Eliwood in High Tier and Lyn in Low Tier. So, the negative that you get from using Lyn rather than Eliwood is quite tiny, if it exists at all.
Except that it’s not anywhere near the same as recruiting Farina. Each Heaven Seal is 10k over a regular promotion item, so you’re losing 20k there. “40k” represents only the total loss for promoting both Eliwood and Lyn. The net loss that Lyn is giving you from using an additional Heaven Seal is only 20k, in reality, since you were already using one to begin with in your example (otherwise Eliwood isn’t in play and Lyn doesn’t have promotion troubles in the first place, so meh). It’s about half as bad as recruiting Farina, which is indeed quite manageable (the benefit that either Eliwood or Lyn provides for your EXP Rank means you sometimes don’t have to promote Matthew, saving 40k as well that way). So that's -20k to the Funds Rank. A regular promotion item is -10k to the Funds Rank. Kent's total deficit: -10k. So Kent gets -10k to the Funds Rank by requiring Lyn to be played. Kent is still not that much more expensive than Erk, however, if more expensive at all. If Erk is using Staves, a single Physic Staff is already over a third of the additional cost of promoting Lyn. By using only three of these, Erk’s gone over the deficit, and is now actually more eexpensive than Kent. If he gets to use anything like Barrier, Warp, Restore, or Fortify, the cost increases substantially (using Fortify even once adds 500 gold). Up until Dragon’s Gate, Lances (and possibly Axes if you LHM-promoted Kent) are much cheaper than Anima weapons, so Kent is saving lots of money over Erk that way. After Dragon’s Gate, Killers add to Kent’s cost, but Erk’s basic Mend Staff adds to his own expenses, so that about cancels, and Kent is still being less expensive with the rest (Iron Axe is 3 gold per use; Fire is 7, Thunder is 10). And Kent can promote in LHM, saving you 10k in the main game, making Erk actually a lot more expensive in the long run. And this is only of he were to take the burden of Lyn’s promotion entirely on his own shoulders (in reality it’s less since Lyn has another Supporter that is sharing the burden of the cost with Kent, as he’s dragging her into play as well). And when Fiora is Kent’s B Support instead of Lyn, it’s the same, only Kent doesn’t get -10k added to his account, so Erk is actually losing by a HUGE amount (10 to 20k or more). lolpwned Erk. ggnore
Being possibly the best unit for offense early on is indeed quite a boon. Don’t pretend otherwise. It’s worth a sizeable jump in placement, as earlygame is possibly the hardest section of the game (no Supports + PC growths are much greater than enemy growths). While “her Str at 21 is the lowest,” she gets +5 Atk/20 Crit form A Florina/B Kent, and she continues to have the highest AS on the team excepting Guy/Raven, which lets her double Heroes and Valkyries and the generally tougher set of enemies. Against those who have massive Atk, like Bartre/Oswin, she has a big AS lead, and against those who have massive AS, like Guy and Rebecca, she matches them in Atk—20/1 Guy with A Matthew/B Prsicilla only beats 20/1 Lyn with A Florina/B Kent in 1 Atk, and 20/1 Rebecca with A Lowen/B Raven ties her. The people with good AS and good Atk, such as, say, Kent, she loses against, but then I’m not claiming that she’s some sort of amazing FE unit. I’m saying that she’s Mid Tier, and that’s quite plausible. As for her durability, that’s not that bad before promotion (level lead from LHM + naturally high Avo). The lack of Avoid Supports makes it go down after promotion, but then she also gets Bows to avoid counterattacks on Player Phase, so she manages to slide back up to reasonable levels of durability.
The damage done to Eliwood is not much at all if she’s replacing him, since, as proven, the differences between her and Eliwood are at best marginal. Unless you want to suggest that Eliwood *also* sucks at combat, since they compare about the same, and that’s what would have to be true for you to continue to say that Lyn sucks at combat. And the Funds Rank? I’ve shown why that hardly matters in Kent vs. Erk.
No, they’re with totally different units, so you are indeed basing quite a bit off of Support structure. If it so happens that my team is helped out Supportwise more by Lyn being there (i.e., without her, I would have one or two units without Supports) than by Eliwood being there, then I will be using Lyn. For example, Kent and Florina might lack a second Support, whereas Lowen and Hector might have secondary options that they can turn to if Eliwood is out of the picture. The opposite may also be true, but it depends entirely on what your team needs. Writing it away as “Eliwood is Anima, therefore he wins” isn’t going to cut it here. The simple fact that he possesses an Anima affinity doesn’t mean I get more out of him being on the team and Supporting people. Giving full Supports to units that wouldn’t otherwise have them >>> giving better bonuses to units that would still have full Supports otherwise.
Eliwood is a good unit, you say? There you have it, folks! Lyn must be a good unit as well, if Eliwood is one, since they’re about the same overall (certainly the margin is nowhere near large enough to consider one “bad” and the other “good”). And, also, no, you’re quite wrong. Using someone else for EXP Rank, all I get is wasted kills on a unit that I’m not even using. With using Lyn for EXP Rank, the EXP that I’m using to add to my EXP Rank is actually being used by one of my units. A resource that’s actually put to use while achieving a Rank > one that’s not. So, reasons to use Lyn vs. reasons not to use Lyn: Best earlygame offense + Mani Katti + fast Supports + high AS always + strong 1- and 2- Range options for avoiding counterattacks + high Crit + forced deployment in several chapters + needing to be used to recruit Geitz + possible EXP Rank aid vs. meh concrete durability + average Atk + possible promotion issues. From that, I’d say it’s pretty reasonable for Lyn to be used. And if not, there’s Fiora:
Clever how you manage to poke holes in Fiora’s case as a unit but you neglect to mention her main contribution to your team: flying. Florina and Fiora are clearly your best flyers (the rest all come very late), so one or the other is almost certainly going to make it on the team. Why? Because flying is a function that no other type of unit is able to perform, and it does indeed have merits. I can have a team without a flyer, or I can have a team with one. The option is simple, no complications or anything about it. A team with a flyer can obviously do certain tasks better than one without a flyer. That’s common sense. That flyer has less durability due to not being able to use terrain and having a weakness to Bows, but it adds a unique and quite useful dimension to the team due to being able to bypass terrain, and with high Move to boot. Flyers are, for example, the only units who can successfully cross Mountains with any degree of proficiency. Rivers, long runs of Forested area, etc., also all pop up. I’ll go over some chapters where flying comes in useful after Fiora joins: 19: There are lots of little islands on Dread Isle, and foot units can’t cross over the Rivers very fast (they have to rely on going over the bridge) 19x: Mountains in the topmost corner. Fiora can ferry a unit over to Kishuna to kill him faster or can handle the Pegs that fly in and attack Merlinus from up here 21: Not only is this a chapter with a lot of Wyverns (flyers can intercept them), but there are villages here 23: loldesert 23x: This isn’t a flyer chapter, but Fiora is the highest-Res unit on your team barring magical units, and she can actually do significant damage to the enemies here unlike magical units, so she might be your best candidate for bringing to this chapter 24: Big river, Wyverns in Linus’ version; big mountain range, Wallace in Lloyd’s version 25: Huge Rivers. Monks everywhere that no one else can get to nearly as fast (and you’re most likely not recruiting Farina due to her cost) 26: Wyverns galore. HUGE Mountain Range + a village. 28x: lol, wut. There are big streams and disappearing bridges and good Magic users—flyers are h4x here 29: Mountains + Magic users. Fiora’s big Res and attacking Def rather than Res is most noticeable here 32: Huge Mountains, +around 40 Valkyries here (huge Spd + attacking Def + huge Res = makes Fiora w1n here) In all of those chapters listed, having a flyer >>> not having a flyer. Therefore, Fiora’s combat only needs to be average for her to earn a place on the team (meaning, as long as she doesn’t suck, you should be fielding her). But it’s not average. It’s considerably above average. So she’s got about as much of a chance on the team as Eliwood. In fact, if Lyn really is as bad as you say, then Florina loses quite a bit of value, and thus your best flyer is Fiora, giving her even more reason to be used, since Fiora will have a considerable advantage in Supports. (It doesn’t really matter to Kent, of course, which flyer you use. If you’re using Florina, Lyn is likely to be in play, so he can Suppport her. And if you’re using Fiora, he can outright just Support her. If you’re using both, he gets his pick. Or, if you’re using Heath for some reason, Kent can Support him too, though using him is a rare phenomenon). Then Fiora has high AS (19.0 at 20/1) and good Atk (she gets +5 Atk/20 Crit from Supports, just like Lyn, and Lances and Swords for WTA manipulation, for more w1n). Her defensive parameters are also nowhere near as bad as what you claim—you tried to compare her to Lyn? Her Def at 20/1 with A Florina/B Kent is 12.6 and her Res is 17.6 (easily one of the highest values on the team, and unlike a magical unit, she does a lot more damage to enemy Magic Users), whereas Lyn at that level has 4-5 less Res, 2 less Def, and 3 less HP, as well. To compare to another unit, 20/4 Erk (A Priscilla) has 11.4 Def and 16.8 Res—lol, h4x’d. And that’s with a level lead that he probably won’t even have since Fiora has flying to get more kills and thus close the level gap that exists from her joining underlevelled. Try 20/1, where Erk’s Def is actually _less_ than Lyn’s (it’s 9.8 compared to Lyn’s 10.8) and his Res falls to 15.6. Her Avoid is “barely better than Bartre’s”? Excuse me? 20/1 Bartre (B Raven) has 39. 20/1 Fiora has 52.9, for a 13.9 lead (-1 against Lances, 28.9 lead against Axes and 43.9 against Swords). She can also have +10-12 Avoid if Eliwood, Geitz, or Pent decides to Support her (Pent in particular isn’t unlikely—if you have Erk tied up with both healers like you do, Pent will frequently be going Supportless). So no, Bartre and Fiora are not anywhere near each other in Avo. Yes, Bartre does have an HP lead—however, Bartre also has less than 10 AS before promotion and a comparable amount after, so he, unlike Fiora, can get doubled. Plus, Bartre’s non-Raven Supports (Renault, Karla, Canas, Dorcas) are a lot less likely to be played than Fiora’s Supports (Florina, Kent, Eliwood, Pent, Sain, Geitz). And Fiora has a lot more Res, whereas Bartre has a couple more Def. Also, I notice how you cleverly chose Bartre to compare her defense to and labeled him as a “trash unit.” But Bartre and Dorcas’ problem isn’t durability—their problem is low AS, and Fiora doesn’t have that problem. Your other selection, even more ironically, was Oswin, who has one of the best defenses in the game. Her Def is on par with people like Kent and Sain (one less than A Kent/B Rebecca Sain) and her Res is huge. Yes, she does join underlevelled, but this is also a benefit to the EXP Rank. No, I’m not saying that being h4x for the EXP Rank overrides being underlevelled, but it does indeed make the “omg she’s unusable” aspect go away. Adding to the EXP Rank means that you can use Marcus and Oswin more early on. She doesn’t have Supports? lol, by Dread Isle, Supports haven’t advanced that far, since the early chapters are rather short. Erk x Serra isn’t even at a C by then. And then Fiora’s Supports are indeed quite fast—A Florina is 52 turns and B Kent is 54.
LOL @ both of those quotations. Nice logic there. You’re trying to tell me that since the chance of Eliwood not being played (and Kent therefore being able to get Lyn) is about the same as Sain not being played, Kent can’t have full Supports? I’m afraid it doesn’t work like that. When a unit is in play (in this case it’s Kent), all of that unit’s Supporters have extra reason to be used. For example, if a unit is in Mid Tier normally, and a unit in play really would like a Support with that unit in Mid Tier, the chance of the Mid Tier being played is about the chance of a normal High Tier being played. If this weren’t the case, we would never use anyone outside of the top 12 units, which obviously doesn’t fly. Kent being in play means that Sain has a lot more chance to be in play. It also means that Lyn has a greater chance to be in play. Since this debate is about Kent and Erk, the only units we know are in play for sure *are* Kent and Erk. When you’re sitting there planning team structure, you’re going to try to base as much of your team as possible around these two units’ Supports, provided that their Supports aren’t more negative than they are positive (*cough* like Erk Supporting two healers). And then even your comparison is flawed. For one, you completely forgot Fiora. You included Lyn, but you left out the possibility of Fiora, whom you said was about the same as Lyn? You’re contradicting yourself, buddy. Then, the gap between Eliwood and Lyn isn’t that big. Finally, Eliwood and Sain have quite a difference between them, on any tier list you look. Eliwood is near the bottom of High, and Sain is near the top of High, so you can’t say that the chances of Eliwood not being played is “about the same as Sain not being played.” Kent can have: A Sain/B Fiora, A Sain/B Lyn, A Fiora/B Lyn, or Lyn/B Fiora. Given these options, and the fact that playing Sain is almost a guarantee and that the chance of playing Fiora is quite high, Kent is almost always going to have full Supports, even if you discard Lyn for the most part. Actually, even without a B Support, Kent still wins against Erk. Going back to my 18/0 comparison, 18/0 Kent (A Sain) Klr Lance: 25.8 Atk, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 10.2 Def, 6.2 Res, 41.6 Avo 18/0 Erk (A Priscilla) Thundah: 20.8 Atk, 14.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 44.1 Avo All that removing a B Support does for Kent, notably, is lower his Atk. He’s still winning defense despite the defensive loss (4 Def, WTA, 6-7 HP >>> 1-2 Range, 3 Avo, and 5 Res, for reasons already covered). Losing Atk by only 5 now, Erk can arguably lead in offense, but the lead that Erk gains here, if there is one, still isn’t going to shift the margin too much. Kent wins against anything with under 5-6 w/WTA in their Def-Res gaps, and as you can see from the samples given in the first post, that's quite a lot, even if a little less than what it would be if he had B Fiora or Lyn. And he still has a 2 Move lead. Kent is definitely going to have a B Support, but removing it doesn’t cause Erk to suddenly win, either. Kent will still win when he doesn’t have it, but when he does have it, the margin will be much greater, and since he’s going to have it the majority of the time, he w1ns by quite a lot.
No, I explained my reasoning behind that, and you even countered it. Clever, trying to make it appear as though I had made a mistake.
The biggest problem with Erk Supporting two healers is that if you’re using two healers in the first place, they’re not going to be concentrated together. Serra wants to heal a unit over on the left and Priscilla wants to heal a unit over on the right. That’s generally the point of having two healers. As the game goes on, you're dividing up your army more and more as maps get much bigger, and you're sending one healer off to each little group, meaning that either Erk loses his Support bonuses (as do the healers) or you have to scrunch together and hurt your Tactics. Your healing force is small, whereas your combat force is quite large. Supporting two combat units doesn’t concatenate any significant portion of the combat force around a single unit, whereas Supporting two healers does indeed cause your entire healing force to be stationed near one unit (Erk), largely defeating the purpose of having two healers in the first place. And then, no, playstyle is indeed quite important in deciding whether to use Serra or Priscilla or both. Using two healers gives me another unit to shield early on, and I lose another shielding/attacking unit. In exchange, I receive benefit to the EXP Rank/more durable units. Oftentimes, there is also only one wound to heal, and either Serra or Priscilla finds herself unable to perform an action that turn. Two healers are also never, for practical purposes, going to heal the same unit, whereas two combat units are going to very often be attacking the same enemy. In this case, Kent can slide in between the two and still be Supporting them, whereas Erk can't. Erk also needs a minimum of 4 units (possibly even 5) to be chained together to Support both his Supporters on the same turn, since they're actually going to be healing other units. Kent, however, only needs a chain of 3 (since the other slots are occupied by the enemies). For Supporting one unit at a time, Erk needs 3, Kent only 2. Another problem with Priscilla is that she isn't very durable, even after promotion. Earlier you mentioned how Lyn has “meh to bad” durability, I believe. If Lyn has bad durability, then what of Priscilla? 20/7 Priscilla (A Erk/B Guy) has 29.4 HP/8.4 Def (68.4 Avo). 20/1 Lyn has 32.3 HP/8.8 Def (59-66 Avo). Lyn beats her in both parameters at 6 levels lower (and that’s not even going to happen if she’s actually played), and then Priscilla’s HP growth is 40, Lyn’s is 70; Priscilla’s Def growth is 15, Lyn’s is 20. Anyway, the point is: Priscilla is pretty frail, especially early on, when she lacks Supports. Having to shield her when she can’t counterattack, therefore, is pretty bad (Lyn at least gets to counterattack the enemy). You have another worthless unit on Enemy Phase, and one that’s even a liability. And you’re using two healers. That means two worthless units on Enemy Phase for quite a while. And even if we were using both healers, what’s to say that they’re both Supporting Erk? The chance of that is definitely not high enough to be considered a guarantee. Erk’s Serra Support is extraordinarily slow, for example. This means that by using Serra and having her Support Erk, you have a unit that goes without full Supports for a while. In fact, let’s see just how slow Erk’s Serra Support is: A Sain = 121 A Lucius = 121 A Hector = 226 A Oswin = 231 A Matthew = 236 A Erk = 239 A Florina = 241 wut All the Supports except for the one with Florina are faster, and Hector, Oswin, and Matthew start several chapters earlier? h4x. Yes, Erk has Thunder affinity—no, one is impressed. See, while Priscilla fails at durability, Serra’s main problem is offense. She loses a constant -1 AS from your basic Lightning tome, and her Mag at 20/1 is 12.5. She attacks Res, but using the weakest type of tome (Light) and getting little Atk from Supports make her offense quite borderline a lot of the time. So if she’s Supporting Erk for a B, the most she can get from her other Supports is +1 Atk (without Supporting Erk she can make that +2, and the other Support will be guaranteed to be faster except in the case of Florina). “she can’t use offensive bonusez before promotion” Indeed, but this is entirely irrelevant, especially since we’re talking about her Support with Erk. Serra isn’t even likely to have C Erk until about the time where she’d be promoting (she’s one of your highest-levelled units, so she’ll be one of the earliest to promote), so Erk’s defensive bonuses aren’t even in play before promotion. Priscilla . . . Erk’s Support with Priscilla is indeed at a good speed. There’s another problem here, however—Priscilla has one of the best Support lists in the entire game. This means that virtually everyone wants to Support her. Even if Erk is the best, the difference between, say, Erk and Raven, is marginal at best (Ice vs. Thunder Affinity, about the same speed except that Erk is a few chapters earlier—one of which is the 7-turn Talons Alight, another of which is False Friends, during which they’re not together). Then Lucius, Guy, Heath, Oswin, and Sain might all want Supports, and she’s not overly likely to refuse any of them. Sometimes the Erk Support might only go to a B, for example, if she wants to A someone else. For one final problem with Erk Supporting two healers—remember that 1-2 Range that you tote so much? It means that Erk is taking less points of HP damage than direct attackers are (he also has lower HP/Def, so he basically needs that to keep anything near decent durability, in case you wanted to say “just don’t attack indirectly” or something). That means that the chance of Priscilla/Serra healing Erk is a great deal less than the chance of them healing someone like, say, Sain. While this isn’t _huge_, it does damage the speed at which the Supports can build, and given Erk’s already-slow Serra Support, that’s an issue. So, in the face of these facts, Erk is not going to get both Serra and Priscilla most of the time. Even if both are in play, only one might be willing to Support with him. Therefore, sometimes he has C Serra, sometimes A Priscilla, and sometimes A Priscilla/C Serra at the levels posted. I was assuming A Priscilla as an average of these (even though in reality it’s tilted closer to the former than the latter due to Serra’s level lead, so we’re still being quite generous to Erk).
Erk with a level lead? That’s highly unlikely. Erk joins several chapters after Kent does in LHM, and Kent can expect to have a substantial lead on him coming out of LHM. “but you completely control LHM EXP flow” Indeed, but that doesn’t mean that Kent and Erk are going to come out at the same level. If Erk needs to take others’ kills to come out at equal levels with everyone else, that’s obviously a bad thing. That’s similar to giving Kent a Energy Ring or an Angelic Robe or something, though on a different scale. By the time Erk joins in LHM, Kent has already gained several levels. Enemy concentration in LHM is relatively the same no matter what chapter you’re playing on, but earlier on, there are fewer units, so Kent is getting quite a bit of EXP. He probably has a 4-5 level lead on Erk when Erk joins. You could justify Erk’s level lead if EXP flow in LHM were infinite (in which case I could also justify Kent having a huge level lead, so that’s moot anyway), but it’s not, so by LHM Chapter 10, Kent is already 3 or so levels above Erk. Then Erk has two chapters in HHM to make up the deficit. One is a Defend Chapter, and for the other, he isn’t even present for the entirety of the chapter (most of it, sure, but he misses a few turns). If anything, I was being generous in assuming that they maintained equal levels. If you’ll notice, it’ll actually be Kent that has the higher level (probably by 2, since Erk is overlevelled for False Friends/Talons Alight, and will likely only gain 1 level combined there), so your comparison is indeed quite flawed. And Kent’s greater Move allows him to maintain that higher level and possibly even increase it, as reaching more enemies = killing more enemies. And I notice you also have Erk with C Priscilla. Aside from the fact that Priscilla might not want to Support Erk/be on the team, there’s another major problem with this: turns. Priscilla doesn’t get to rejoin the main team in False Friends until the chapter is nearly over, so they can barely Support there. Then they effectively have Talons Alight together. C Priscilla is 22 turns. Talons Alight is limited to 7 turns, and you most likely aren’t going to be Supporting every turn out of those 7 (when it comes down to attacking an enemy or Supporting your partner, you’re going to choose attacking an enemy). So by the time Kent joins, Erk has 5 or so turns at the very best built up with Priscilla. But wait . . . ! Kent’s Sain Support is 71 turns to A. Erk’s Priscilla Support is 76 turns to A. The difference is exactly 5 turns. So much for Erk’s earlier Support advantage. And then Kent and Sain are both mounted, making it easier for them to Support (if Sain is 4 spaces away from Kent, for example, and Kent wants to attack an enemy 3 spaces away, Sain and Kent can still Support that turn). Kent can also Support Lyn if she’s being used, and needless to say that’s _way_ faster than Erk’s Serra Support—it’s also 1 turn faster than his Priscilla Support. So Erk having C Priscilla (22 turns) while Kent doesn’t at least have a C Sain (17 turns) is quite a preposterous notion. Rewriting your comparisons, we come up with this: 12/0 Erk, C Priscilla: 9.4 Atk, 12.5 AS – 24.1 HP, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res, 33.3 Avoid 13/0 Kent, C Sain: 11.8 Atk, 12.4 AS – 30.2 HP, 8.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 31.2 Avo The situation is quite different now. Matched in AS, and Kent is winning Atk by 3. Then a Fire Tome has 5 Mt. whereas an Iron Lance has 7 Mt., so tack on another 2 Atk for Kent. So Kent’s Atk lead is already 5 here. The only things with over 6 more Def than Res at this point are Knights and some Cavaliers (Wyverns don’t exist yet), so Erk wins against those while Kent wins against everything else. And then there is also WTA, as well, not to mention that Kent has Armorslayer available to tie up the gap between Knights. Offensive w1nn4r = Kent. Then for durability, that’s obvious. 4 Def, 6 HP, and WTA vs. 2 Avoid/4 Res? The former is clearly preferable. You yourself said this later on in your debate post:
If Magic users are “almost nonexistent,” then Erk’s Res lead amounts to about nothing, whereas Kent’s Def and HP leads are still quite relevant. So Kent is winning. It doesn’t have to be a comparison at 18/0, as you can see. And that’s only if Kent’s level lead is 1. From LHM it should be 3 or so, and then Erk can reduce it by 1 in HHM, and then Kent has greater Move to gain more levels that way, so it may be even worse for Erk. And that’s considering that Lyn isn’t in play, otherwise he’d also have a C Lyn by now. Now, for 1-2 Range. You made a case about this, but you almost entirely ignored mine, claiming that you “didn’t understand” what I was trying to say. I thought that at least for this debate you’d avoid spewing bull. Apparently not. Let’s address this:
Kent can equip a Javelin and have much the same effect. If the situation is dire enough that neither wants to be attacked, then Oswin can Trade with Kent and have him equip a Javelin so that he’s not attacked either, meanwhile sacrificing no Atk on Player Phase. You say that Kent using a Javelin sacrifices offense? But if 1-2 Range is used to avoid being attacked anyway (as it is in the case that you mentioned), neither is attacking, so it doesn’t even matter. At all. Also, there is the chance that the enemy will go after Erk anyway. Very often the AI doesn’t care about taking a counterattack and will go after a less durable unit either way. Especially if the only nearby unit is one like Oswin, to whom they’d do 0 damage. To Kent with Javelin, however, the case is different. Kent has greater concrete durability than Erk does, so if the choice is between ranged Kent and nonranged Oswin, there’s an even greater chance of the enemy choosing Oswin over Kent than there is of it choosing Oswin over Erk. There’s almost no durability advantage on Enemy Phase for Erk’s Magic.
And in exchange for this, Kent has a concrete durability lead. “Both dying in 3 hits” is rarely going to happen. At the levels posted above: 12/0 Erk, C Priscilla: 9.4 Atk, 12.5 AS – 24.1 HP, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res, 33.3 Avoid 13/0 Kent, C Sain: 11.8 Atk, 12.4 AS – 30.2 HP, 8.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 31.2 Avo A 13 Atk enemy kills Kent in 7 hits, Erk in 3. Erk needs to take 4 less attacks than Kent to be able to match Kent. There are several impediments to this, and I’ll list them all succinctly this time, so you can’t ignore them again: 1.) Enemies can attack several times on Enemy Phase, only once on Player Phase. Both take damage on Enemy Phase, so Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage is nonexistent there. 2.) Kent might OHKO the enemy. In this case, he takes no damage on Player Phase, just like Erk. This also erases Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage. 3.) Kent might be wielding Javelin on Player Phase, in which case Erk’s durability lead disappears for 1-2 Range. And the more Kent starts to 2HKO, the more he can use Javelin (and later Hand Axe). 4.) As stated, Kent dies in 7 hits from this enemy. Erk dies in 3. Even if Erk’s 1-2 Range capabilities somehow did allow him to take 4 less attacks than Kent, Kent would be winning durability. The chance of 7 hits hitting Kent is a lot less than the chance of 3 hits hitting Erk. A 100-Hit enemy has ~69, 82.3% real on Kent and ~67, 78.55% chance to hit Erk. The chance of Kent getting hit by all 7 attacks (death) is 25.6%. The chance of Erk getting hit by all 3 attacks (death) is 48.46%. h4x’d/10 Do you think what you said counters those 4 points at all? Because they were in my last post and you never addressed them. I don’t blame you for ignoring these points. You have to in order for Erk to win durability, which is a part of your case. However, I’m not an idiot— I’m not going to fall for the typical “I don’t get what ur sayin, let’s look at it this way” type deal.
As much as Erk wants to go Super Saiyan, I’m afraid that you need to have a power level of at least 9,000 to get there, and his power level is quite a fair degree under 9,000. Kent has competition for Knight Crests but Erk doesn’t for Guiding Rings? Are you joking? Lucius, Serra, and Priscilla are all sure candidates to want that first Guiding Ring as well. While Erk has a level lead on Lucius, Lucius gains a C in Staves at promotion, better than Erk’s E by far, and his Mag to use such Staves is higher despite being at a lower level. 13/0 Lucius beats 15/0 Erk by 3 Mag, and Lucius gets 2 more Mag from his promotion than Erk does from his own, adding to a total of +5 over Erk. If it’s a good idea to promote Erk early due to Staves, it’s an even better idea to promote Lucius early, due to his better Staff level and higher Mag. Then there is, of course, the fact that YOU have me using both Serra and Priscilla, as Erk’s Supports. Gaining attacking > gaining healing, since that makes your healers no longer useless on Enemy Phase (the comparative gain of staff utility is nowhere near as large, especially for a unit who starts with an E like Erk does). Even if that weren’t true, however, Serra and Priscilla also earn an EXP bonus, unlike Erk. Gaining attacking and an EXP bonus >>> gaining Staves at an E Rank. So both Serra AND Priscilla also want to jump onto this “promoting early” boat. The only one who doesn’t want to, arguably, is Canas. For Serra, it isn’t even really “promoting early," since she has a higher level than most of your team. Serra sees a lot of use in LHM, due to Nils. In LHM, the enemy concentration is low, so your attacking units don’t need to be Nils’d. However, PC Avoid is not high by any means, and enemies are wielding Iron rather than Steel, so you’re getting hit in LHM quite a lot, which means that the need for extra healing _does_ exist. Therefore, Serra is going to be getting Nils’d a lot, and is going to end up at a high level. By the end of LHM, level 10 or 11 is not out of the question, and then level 20 by Chapter 18 is perfectly natural. Or, if she's level 8-9 by the end of LHM, then 18-19 by Chapter 18, she still wants to promote before Erk since she can’t continue to gain many more levels without doing so. The first Guiding Ring is in Chapter 18; the second, in Chapter 20. Two of Lucius, Serra, and Priscilla are almost always going to take those first 2, so Erk gets stuck with the third, which is in Chapter 23. By Chapter 23, Erk is so ridiculously close to 20/0 anyway (if not *at* 20/0) that the notion of “promoting early” becomes impossible, unless you’re keeping Erk underlevelled, but that would only hurt him. Kent is actually in a better relative situation than Erk is in regards to promoting early. First, he can actually promote in LHM, before the HHM campaign even starts. Second, the first Knight Crest found in the actual campaign is in Whereabouts Unknown, Chapter 17, before you get your first Guiding Ring. Finally, his competition’s promotions are not better than his own, unlike in Erk’s case. Sain and Lowen gain the exact same benefits that Kent gains, and Kent can expect to have a level lead over Lowen from LHM. Oswin is the only one that can be argued, as he has a higher level (not by much, though, since Kent has LHM and Oswin is already gaining less EXP than everyone else other than Marcus). When they both promote on time: 18/0 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn or B Fiora) Irn Lance: 24.8 Atk, 123.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo Javelin: 23.8 Atk, 108.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 12.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 42.6 Avo Stl Sword: 25.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 13.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 44.6 Avo Klr Lance: 27.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 49.3 Crit, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo 18/0 Erk (A Priscilla) Fiyah: 17.8 Atk, 126.7 Hit, 21.4 Crit, 15.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 46.1 Avo Thundah: 20.8 Atk, 116.7 Hit, 26.4 Crit, 14.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 44.1 Avo h4x I’ve already covered why Kent wins in this comparison in the first post, and you never countered it, so there’s no need to cover it again. Of course, this was also being generous to Erk in assuming that Kent didn’t have a level lead, but Kent still wins anyway, so it doesn’t matter. In the rare event that Erk *does* promote early, however, Kent has LHM promotion to counter it. Let’s fix your comparison:
Firstly, Kent only has a C Support while Erk has a B with Priscilla? That’s totally out of the question since Erk only has False Friends and Talons Alight (lol, 7 turns) with her. Secondly, you still have Erk with a level lead of two levels. That’s also ridiculous, as noted. Thirdly, you again include that “or” clause in there. Kent isn’t going to have one or the other; he’ll have both (unless he’s waiting for Fiora). Fourth, Kent himself can promote in LHM. Taking all that into consideration, let’s do a rewrite: 15/1 Erk, B Priscilla: 12.6 Att, 14.0 AS--30.1 Hp, 8.8 Def, 13.6 Res, 40.2 Avo, 16 crit (21 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves 12/3 Kent, B Sain/B Lyn: 16.2 Att, 13.9 AS--33.0 Hp, 12.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 52.4 Avo, 6.3 crit, full Weapon Triangle, 2 Move So, Kent is obviously winning defenses, with a Def/HP lead, more Avo, and constant WTA now due to all three weapons. He’s winning offense, as well—they have the same AS but Kent has a 4 Atk boost normally and an 7 Atk boost when you consider weaponry (go Axes). Enemies *do not* have 8+ in their average Def-Res gaps, as mentioned many times, so Kent takes the lead there. And then there’s +2 Move. w1nn4r? Kent. I don’t really need to rewrite your other comparisons; it follows logically that if by rewriting one of them we can come up with Kent winning, we can do the same to the others (you just basically made one base comparison and posted it at different levels, so I only need to counter one). And even if not, it doesn’t matter, as this situation doesn’t represent the majority of the time—which is a normal promotion. In that case, view my first post, please. Kent wins when it’s a normal promotion by even more than he’s winning here, so it doesn’t even make a difference.
No, it’s not even close to being countered by staff EXP. A level 15/0 Erk gets 20 EXP from killing a level 12 enemy. A level 15/1 Erk gets 7 EXP from killing a level 12 enemy. He lost 13 EXP from a single kill. A Heal Staff gives promoted Erk 5 EXP, and a Mend Staff gives him 6. Even in two turns, with one heal and one kill, I still haven’t made up the deficit from promoting. So this Erk actually grows a lot slower than an unpromoted Erk, allowing an unpromoted Kent to gain a substantial level lead. He can hit 20/1 by the time a 15/1 Erk has reached 15/3-4 or something, and then obviously Kent is going to win that comparison. Maybe you should check your statements first next time?
That logic can be applied when they share the same functions, but in this case, they don’t. Erk has Staves and Kent has h4x mobility, and neither of those do they share in common. Therefore, the relative value of each is indeed important—if Erk is one of the worst Staff Users, and Kent is one of the best mounted units, Kent has a lead already. The value of Staves themselves? Two Staff users early on already have trouble healing every single turn. You add on a third, and now you have three Staff users, with one frequently doing nothing at all. You also have both of the other important Staff Users (Serra and Priscilla) Supporting Erk, so Erk adding Staves doesn’t spread out your possible Staff Range—it just makes it so that you have one more Staff user where there were already two gathered together. lol And then there’s Lucius, which makes 4. On the very basis of how much you need combat vs. how much you need Staves, and what Rank Erk starts in with Staves, we can already see that his Staves are diminished in value by quite a lot. In fact, they’re almost entirely worthless—you seldom need to add on a third Staff User when you already have two, let alone a fourth when you have three. As for when he promotes later on . . . well, I’ve already demonstrated how Erk fares with Staves then. He promotes to gain an E, easily the worst of the lot barring Canas, and his Mag is lower than everyone’s except Renault’s. Two Move does indeed matter, by the way. Miscellaneous utility functions such as rescuing and visiting villages are important, and mounted units obviously >>> nonmounted units for completing them (they can Move Again after visiting villages and have more Move itself), and if Kent is the best of the mounted units, as shown, that means that he’s the number one candidate in the whole game to perform such tasks. h4x. Erk can never claim to be number one in anything at all (while his durability is greater than Priscilla's, it's arguable against Serra, and he still loses in Staff Rank to both). Finally, even if 2 Move didn’t qualify as a separate function, it does indeed help offense, as it allows Kent to reach and therefore kill more enemies than Erk can. So if you view Staves as adding on to Erk’s durability and mobility as adding on to Kent’s offense, those cancel out and you’re left with Kent’s already-superior defense and offense. In that case, Kent wins. Staves don’t change this debate much at all.
Guy alone makes up the Tactics deficit in subsequent chapters. He can reliably kill anything in one round after he gets his hands on some Killing Edges (~96% chance to land a crit once on a double, and he doubles everything), including bosses. This means that you’re progressing through chapters much faster. So much faster that the Tactics Rank is not even hurt—rather, it’s helped. There isn’t only Guy, after all—most physical units benefit from the upgrade to Killer. Sain/Lyn/Florina/etc, both thanks to the Atk boost and the Crit boost.
o rly?
This is what you said earlier in your post. And, unlike in my comparison, which was Staves vs. h4x mobility, neither of which Kent and Erk have in common, you’re comparing an outside unit’s direct attacking capability to Erk’s. If Kent is better at combat than Erk (and he is), Erk being better than Marcus is hardly relevant.
Promoted Kent can indeed move through Mountains as well. Your point? As for 30 Avoid . . . not only is gaining that impractical, but Kent does indeed have a relevant counter to it—Reavers. A Reaver weapon gives him +30 Avoid against enemies. And they’re buyable. h4x. No, they’re not in constant use, since they only have 15 uses, but they’re certainly in use more often than Erk’s “lol I Movez into the mountains to become a hermit,” which sums to about 0.1% total value, especially after Kent can do it too, which is just past the promotion point. Reavers can, in fact, make durability a completely laughable comparison (30 Avoid lets things have 0 or near to 0% hit chance on Kent very often, and it increases his Def also), and Erk doesn’t have access to them while Kent does. Point for Kent. And, actually, Erk can’t even win Move in Forests before promotion. If they’re crossing 1 Forest, Kent’s 7 Move is reduced to 4, Erk’s 5 Move to 3, so Kent’s winning. If they’re crossing 2, Kent’s 7 Move is reduced to 1, Erk’s 5 to 1, so they’re tying. Neither can even cross 3 until promotion, at which point Erk can claim a win. However, that win is incredibly marginal—when would you _ever_ want to move through three Forests? It’s highly impractical. Kent would still be winning in the most common situation—that is to say, if they both want to get through to 1 space of Forest to use its defensive bonuses.
Apparently the term “Kishuna” doesn’t mean anything to you? There are more Kishuna Chapters (3) than there are desert chapters (1), and Erk can hardly take any actions in those chapters all, whereas Kent certainly can in the desert chapter (Wyverns fly outside the sand area, and there are Cavaliers there as well).
No. See, promoting also gives Kent +Axes, +1 Move, and +2 Con, in addition to +2 Def and “2 level ups.” That is indeed pretty nice. The Con is useful for not losing AS from weaponry (0 AS loss now from Javelin, ftmw), and I don’t have to illustrate why 1 Move is useful; then Axes round out Kent’s WTA so that he pretty much has a constant +15 early on and an Atk boost to boot (plus he’s even cheaper nao, moar w1n). And you save 10k in the main game, even more w1n. So it is indeed significant, and Kent can do it while Erk cannot. As proven in the comparison, LHM-promoted Kent can handle early-promoted Erk without a problem, so if anything Kent’s LHM promotion serves to balance Erk’s potential early promotion (or, if you don't LHM-promote Kent, he gains levels faster and then catches up and wins anyway, as illustrated), and then you’re left with a normal promotion, where Kent easily wins. To conclude, this is pretty easily Kent’s win. When they both promote like normal units, Kent dominates, as demonstrated in the first post. He wins offense due to a huge Atk lead that the Def-Res gap on enemies can’t fix, and he wins defense due to more concrete durability (and I’ve shown why this is > 1-2 Range in both posts, and you never contested my points). When they don’t promote like normal units, which is rare for Erk, Kent still wins—the margin is just less. If Kent wins either way, and the way by which he wins moar is the more common way to use them, then Kent easily takes the cake overall. Your entire case is based on Erk having a nonsensical level lead, Kent not getting full Supports, a promotion time frame that occurs only about 10% of the time, if that, and the assumption that a 15/1 Erk gains EXP at the same rate as a 13/0 Kent. lol wut Kent >>> Erk |
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