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| C475_1337 | Dec 10 2007, 04:41 PM |
One serious d00d
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damn, u caught me, lol
A 4-5 level lead for Kent when Erk joins in LHM? Kent has 4 chapters before Erk joins, and there’s barely even 4-5 enemies in half of those chapters, and it’s 3-4 kills to get a level up, and Kent’s sharing his kills with Sain, Lyn, and possibly others. Taking that into account I would expect maybe three levels gained; of the 4 chapters, only #4 has enough enemies to go around at all. Once Erk joins, he has priority for any kills that he can make over the others such as Kent, because his Exp gains are higher. Every kill made by Erk brings me closer to another level of stats than a kill made by Kent would have; when the choice is presented, it’s more efficient to give the kill to Erk. Yes, the difference is very small, as I’m sure you’ll point out, but it’s still a difference, and there’s no counter-reason to give Kent the kill. The most efficient way to distribute the Exp is to distribute it as evenly as possible. And since, like you said, you can mostly if not completely control who gets what kills in LHM, there will be plenty of opportunities for that to take effect. So overall I’d most certainly expect them to come out on the same level, but then Erk has two chapters in HHM which Kent doesn’t, and thus he’s on the higher level when Kent rejoins in HHM. Erk has chapters which Kent doesn’t in HHM, and it’s the opposite in LHM, but the gap created in LHM can and will be solved without issue before LHM is done, and LHM combat performance has no relevance, so the lead Kent has for a while there means nothing. However, since HHM is the mode being debaeted, Erk has a small lead there which *does* matter while it exists. Ofcourse, it quickly goes away, so it has little significance overall, but it does rather defeat the notion of Kent ever being the one with a higher level, except when he promotes in LHM. Also: Lundgren abuse is necessary to get 19xx, and Erk is better able than Kent to partake in that. On average Kent has to be L13 in order to hurt Lundgren w/ the Javelin, while Erk only needs to be L5 to hurt him w/ Fire, or can even hurt him at base level w/ Thunder. There’s only one space that melee units can attack Lundgren from, and Lyn and probably others want some too, so Kent has to share with them, while Erk can hit Lundgren from range and not care. Even if Kent could hurt Lundgren w/ Javelin, his accuracy with it is considerably less than Erk’s w/ either of his two tomes, so Erk would still get more out of the process.
Right now it’s pretty much only Oswin who can regularly take zero damage, and even he can still be hurt by alot of things, and no one has reliable Avo. The only way there’s only one unit to heal alot of the time is if there’s only one unit attacking in the first place, but that’s a ridiculous notion when you’re fielding not 1, but rather 8 or so attackers. Most people take counters, or take them most of the time, and then some also get attacked on enemy phase, and pplz have a significant chance of taking damage both times, and there’s probably atleast 4-5 units attacking on most turns, more on some turns if you can manage it; since this is still early on and individual offense isn’t good yet, I need way more attackers to kill the same number of enemies compared to what I’d have to use later on in the game. Observe: If I have 3 enemies, Guy can kill one, then Lowen/Eliwood have to gang up to kill one, and Hector/Rebecca have to double-team in order to get the last one, then that’s 5 units just to take out a mere 3 enemies, and they’re all taking counters except Rebecca, and again, no one has reliable Avo early on, not even Guy. So yeah, lol @ healers not having anything to heal.
A 5-6 Att lead for Kent? I find that to be quite excessive. 11.8 – 9.4 = 2.4, not 3, for starters. anyway The gap in natural Pow starts off as the same, then when the level gap closes, Kent gets +1, and then when he gets C Sain around the same time, he gets another +1. As for weapons, why would you only consider Fire? That’s like me ignoring Kent’s considerable arsenal, instead pretending that the only weapon he can use is the Iron Sword, and then saying Erk has more Mt from weapons because Thunder has 8 Mt while Iron Sword has 5. Thunder exists, and Erk even rejoins from LHM with a copy of it, so Kent’s not getting any kind of base Mt advantage from his weapons. So at best, Kent can expect a 2 point lead in raw Att. That goes up to 3 against sword enemies, and axe enemies in certain situations, but at the same time, there’s the chapters before he builds up that 2 base lead to consider, so it still comes out to about 2 overall. That means he has an Att lead against……Soldiers and Peg Knights, both of which Erk kills anyway. Erk, on the other hand, has the advantage against most of everything else, Knights and Cavs in particular. The only time Kent edges out any kind of damage lead which matters at all is possibly against Myrmidons (one of the very few enemies Erk can’t kill), and it’s achieved only by using the Steel Lance, which is a bad idea if there’s other enemies around against which the cuts to AS/Hit would hurt him, so even that is situational atbest. And even when it’s happens, it’s only liek 2 more damage for Kent, which probably won’t matter anyway. Erk’s winning situations, however, feature a much more noticeable difference. A 10 damage lead (5 per hit) against Cavaliers is the difference between one-rounding and not one-rounding, for example. Unlike Kent’s win against Myrmidons or w/e, that’s actually significant, and its significance is also constant rather than situational. Erk also does more damage to nearly all of the rest, and depending on the enemies’ stats, Kent may not be able to one-round some of those other things, such as Brigands, but Erk consistently will.
Nah, you can’t just ignore 1-2 range for Erk. That’s no better than me claiming that Erk wins because it’s “WTA vs. 2 Avo/4 Res/1-2 range,” and totally ignoring Kent’s Hp and Def leads. 1-2 range makes it a close race atbest; Kent takes less damage per hit, but has to take more hits overall. Putting them both on L13: If they don’t get attacked on enemy phase, that means an auto-win for Erk. Erk simply doesn’t take damage that round, while Kent gets countered. This is obvious. If they get attacked once on enemy phase, Erk takes less damage that round so long as the enemy has 12 Att or more, which it will. Taking 17 Att, Kent gets countered for 9, then attacked again for 9, for a total of 18. Erk gets attacked for 12.6 once. Taking Kent’s Hp lead into account, that means Erk has ~4 more Hp when the enemy phase begins, and they have the same Hp on the start of the next player phase. Kent can only claim a win if the enemy has under 15 Att, which is pretty rare. If they get attacked twice on enemy phase, Erk *still* takes less damage so long as the enemy has 16 Att or more, which should be the case more often than not. However, Kent’s Hp lead means he should have a bit more Hp left anyway, so he wins here. If they get attacked 3 times on enemy phase, Kent would definitely win, but he has a chance to die if the enemy has 16 Att or more, so odds are that you aren’t letting this happen anyway. Kent’s WTA gets him another point of Def in some situations, but at the same time, against ranged enemies, Erk is less likely to be attacked. As you can see, the advantage for either side is entirely situational. It’s not a clear win for either one at all.
This situation turns it from “5 Hp, 4 Def, and WTA vs not taking counters & discouraging ranged enemies,” to “5 Hp, 4 Def, and WTA vs not taking counters & not making another unit waste their turn,” which is a win for Erk. Allowing another unit to actually do something is similar to the effect of a dancer. Ofcourse, in this situation Kent can pick the unit whose turn he wants to waste, which is the opposite of a dancer choosing whose turn they want to refresh, but it’s still a very significant disadvantage.
In order to have Javelin equipped on enemy phase, Kent must either attack with it on player phase, which *does* sacrifice offense, or have someone trade it to top of his inventory, which was covered above.
What? No, the AI is not inconsistent like that. The only thing that takes precedence over not being countered is killing someone, so if Erk could possibly die to that individual enemy’s attack, then yes, they’d go for him over Oswin. Otherwise no.
If Kent equips Javelin, then this is true, but that doesn’t eliminate the disadvantage, it just passes it into another form, so w/e. Objectively it’s the same, or probably worse if he’s wasting someone else’s turn. If Kent doesn’t equip Javelin, then Erk has an advantage anytime ranged enemies are around, which is certainly often enough to be significant.
That’s only happening, if ever, against magic enemies, where Erk wins anyway.
14 Kent C Sain w/ Javelin: 17 Att, 11 AS, 94 hit 14 Erk C Priscilla w/ Thunder: 18 Att, 12.5 AS, 110 hit, Res hitting It’s now superior defense for Kent, except maybe vs Axes, against an even larger offense win for Erk. Considering that Javelin use made the defense go from “neutral” to “Kent wins,” whereas it made the offense go from “Erk wins” to “Erk wins even more,” it’s pretty clear that the offensive gap is more significant.
13 Atk is rarely if ever seen on the enemies. A Merc or Myrm w/ Iron Sword can have 13 (or maybe a Slim Lance Peg? Not sure), but that’s about it.
Okay, let’s roll with a single AS value which favors our own unit. My counter: How do they perform, for example, against a 40 Att enemy? Both are OHKO’d, so Erk wins, because he doesn’t have to take its counter, while Kent does, so Kent can only attack it with the crappy Javelin. “but enemies dun have 40 att” Obviously not. Nor do they always have 13 Att.
Naw, you only need 1337 power level, and erk gets dat easily.
Only if they’re in play. Serra and Priscilla are, but Lucius most likely isn’t. Not so much because he sux, but more because of this: When a unit is in play (in this case it’s Kent), all of that unit’s Supporters have extra reason to be used. For example, if a unit is in Mid Tier normally, and a unit in play really would like a Support with that unit in Mid Tier, the chance of the Mid Tier being played is about the chance of a normal High Tier being played. If this weren’t the case, we would never use anyone outside of the top 12 units, which obviously doesn’t fly. Kent being in play means that Sain has a lot more chance to be in play. It also means that Lyn has a greater chance to be in play. The same principle works in reverse here. When Kent is in play, you want him to be supported, so you have more reason to use Sain and Lyn. Likewise, when Erk/Serra/Prissy are all in play, you don’t want pplz promoting later than usual, so you have more reason to not use Lucius or Canas. Combined with the fact that Lucius isn’t especially likely to be in play to begin with, that means he’s almost certainly not used in the scenario of Erk + 2 healers being used.
If you’re interested in gaining a healer who can counterattack, you’ll notice that promoting Erk turns him into one, just like promoting one of the other two would have done for them, so there goes that argument. Priscilla’s not even going to be at L10 when the first Ring shows up, so w/e @ her. Now, promoting Erk increases your total number of healers from 2 to 3, which promoting Serra does not. Given that I’ve only got 2 healers but about 8 or something attackers, I’d much prefer to have a new healer over a new attacker. I have plenty who can attack already, whereas there are comparatively few who can perform the also-useful function of healing; Erk promoting increases my healing power by 50%, whereas promoting Serra increases my attacking power by alot less (assuming 8 attackers already, 12.5%). With 4 times as many attackers as I have healers, it’s quite obviously the attackers who are going to have trouble all finding something to target, not the healers.
Giving her 1 level per chapter, she hits 20 in Dragon’s Gate. Perfect timing for the second Ring. You can obviously argue that she’s growing faster than 1 level per chapter, but there’s reasoning to support the opposite viewpoint aswell (5 and 6 in LHM have no Nils and very few enemies; 13x is only 7 turns so she can’t possibly gain 100 Exp there; etc), so w/e.
If an LHM-promoted Kent was 12 by the end of Ch. 10, then Erk is at 13 in Ch. 14. Not that I agree that Kent should be L12 at the end of LHM (I consider 10 to be pushing it already), but, it doesn’t really matter as long as Erk is given an unnaturally high level aswell. Thus, Erk is 15 upon Kent rejoining in Noble Lady: 15 Erk: 10.6 Att, 14.0 Spd—26.2 Hp, 4.8 Def, Res hitting, 1-2 range 12/1 Kent: 11.4 Att, 13.0 Spd—31.3 Hp, 9.8 Def, WT, move The concrete defense is now a 5 Hp/5 Def initial lead which is going to get smaller, instead of a 3-4 Hp/3 Def initial lead which gets bigger. Kent has about 1 more Att and the same AS if Erk uses Thunder, which is a clear win for Erk overall. Kent now has Axes, which is pretty cool. Overall, Kent has improved, but this is simply an arguable scenario now (offense vs defense), as opposed to a clear win for Erk when Kent didn’t promote in LHM. Now consider that Erk is quite a bit better for the Exp rank than Kent, and Erk clearly wins again. And since Erk’s better for Exp rank, he’s got priority over Kent for kills again, on top of higher natural Exp gains, and this is early enough that those higher Exp gains are quite noticeable. Liek, the 20 Exp vs 7 Exp thing that you posted later. However, Erk’s sharing this status of “better to give kills to than Kent” with pretty much everyone else sans Marcus, so it won’t matter *that* much……probably it’s liek, 1 level for Kent for every 1.5 that Erk gets, or something. So when Erk promotes under this scenario: 18/1 Erk C Priscilla: 12.8 Att, 15.5 Spd—32.0 Hp, 8.4 Def, 13.8 Res, 41.1 Avo, Res hitting, 1-2 range, staves 12/2-3 Kent C Sain C Lyn: 14.0 Att, 13.7 Spd—32.1 Hp, 11.2 Def, 6.2 Res, 36.9 Avo, WT, move Kent’s phailing, just like he would be if he’d stayed unpromoted. His Hp lead disappeared, and his Def lead was reduced from 4 to 3, which means Erk is now the one winning durability unless they get attacked by 3 or more enemies on the enemy phase, which remains a fairly unlikely scenario. Offensively there’s no contest, Res hitting vs 1 Att is a w1n for Erk, and Erk’s considerably faster aswell. On top of that, Erk’s actually going to close that level gap and eventually be on a higher level himself, due to staff Exp which Kent doesn’t have.
Naw, it can cause phailure of the LHM funds rank, so that you only get a Blue Gem instead of a White. A White Gem is worth 10K more than a Blue Gem, so it would come out to be the same, or if you get a Red Gem, you actually lose funds. But w/e, funds shouldn’t be much of an issue anyway.
This would be accurate in the beginning, when it’s liek L10 Kent vs L7 enemies, but Erk isn’t promoted during that time either, so w/e. Then PCs continue to level up, but enemy levels stay largely the same. 15 Kent killing a L8 enemy is only 8 Exp. 15/1 Erk killing that same enemy gets 6. The difference between Kent and Erk there is less than half the Exp gained by a single casting of Heal. Erk and Kent can both partake in the combat Exp, and Kent gets slightly more from it, but Erk can also heal when you don’t need additional attackers, which is pretty often the case with so many attackers floating around. So it comes out to be the same.
no u
You’re right in saying that they don’t share the same functions. Well actually, they do share the function of attacking, but then Erk has a second function in the form of staves, while Kent has no second function at all. There isn’t anything on Kent’s side to compare staves to. Maybe if Kent could Dance or Steal or something. However, he can’t. Using his Move as a match for Staves doesn’t work out, because Erk can Move too, but Kent can’t use Staff at all. Attacking adds offense to the team, while healing adds defense; both Erk and Kent are adding offense to the team, but Erk’s the only one of the two who is also adding defense. In addition to Erk taking hits himself, he can allow any unit you choose to take additional hits after being injured. Kent has nothing like this, and it can’t be pretended that he does. The best he can do is Rescue injured units out of the fray, which is a pitiful imitation atbest. Point: Erk The ability to heal is particularly handy if you advocate the use of low-durability units such as Fiora and Lyn; both lack reliable Avo and have low enough Hp/Def that they can’t simply take hits, and on top of that, they nearly always have to take counters, and Fiora can’t even camp on terrain to try and improve her Avo. With a unit like one of those in play, they’ll need healing liek every other turn, on a good day. Erk can assist in keeping them in the fray and thus keeping their offenses at work on the enemies as often as possible; Kent cannot. Add on to Erk’s personal offense all the additional times that he lets Lyn or Fiora (or any other unit that needs healing at the time) attack where otherwise they would’ve had to retreat or stay back. Now also consider that Erk healing units produces Exp for Erk himself *without* taking any away from the limited pool of combat Exp; the kills he would’ve otherwise taken during those turns spent healing go to other units, so they get to grow more than usual, while Erk himself continues to grow aswell. More Exp for Lyn or Fiora or whoever else, which equals higher levels, and thus higher stats all-around. Even more w1n. Advantages like these can match up to an advantage in raw personal offense. Kent can spar with Erk in terms of who’s better at attacking, but he can’t even challenge him in the arena of healing, and both are significantly useful functions; if anything healing moreso than attacking, because your options for healing are alot more limited. So Kent has a steep mountain to climb already; he has to not only beat Erk at attacking, but also beat Erk at attacking to the extent that his w1n there even beats Erk’s healing aswell. Sadly enough, though, Kent can’t even scale the first slope of that mountain, because his attacking isn’t clearly better than Erk’s at all. If anything, it’s quite the opposite. Even if Kent managed to win at attacking, which he doesn’t, the fact that it can be reasonably disputed in the first place would be evidence enough that the gap between Kent’s offense and Erk’s isn’t large enough to overcome Erk’s staves.
This argument is no better than me coming out and saying “Kent has h4x mobility and Erk has h4x res, and neither of those do they share in common. Therefore, the relative value of each is indeed important—if Erk is one of the best units with h4x res, and Kent isn’t one of the best units with h4x mobility, Erk has a lead already.” Obviously such an argument phails; instead of weighing the actual case of Kent vs Erk, all I did was pick a particular trait for each unit which the other lacks, compare them to other units who have that same trait, and then say based on the results that Erk > Kent. However, the results of such a contest are irrelevant and inaccurate regardless of what they are, because I compared Kent and Erk to two totally different sets of units and thus held them to two totally different standards, and worse even than that, I didn’t even actually compare Erk to Kent at all, which is pretty phail in a Kent vs Erk debaet. This kind of logic would also tell me, for example, that Rebecca > Lowen, because: “Rebecca has Bows and Lowen has Swords, and neither of those do they share in common. Therefore, the relative value of each is indeed important—if Lowen isn’t the best Sword User, and Rebecca is the best Bow User, Rebecca has a lead already.” You can see how silly that is. It’s merely a more intelligent attempt at the old competition arguments.
Obviously it matters. It simply is not in any way comparable to staves, like you implied above. The two things differ on a fundamental level. Move is, well, move; I can’t really think of anything else that it’s at all similar to, except having more attack range (which Erk has, btw). Staff is a weapon rank and a function. There’s no basis at all for trying to give those equal worth, as there’s no way to objectively measure their worth compared to each other. It would be liek me trying to use Erk’s Res lead to cancel out Kent’s move lead; that would be laughed down aswell. The two things are completely different and can’t be objectively weighed against eachother. Anyway, the hard benefit of extra move is most often that it increases Kent’s flexibility in where he can attack enemies from, and what positions he can take to end his turn on. You’ll notice that Erk’s 1-2 range produces the exact same type of advantage; Erk has more options in where he can attack from and what positions he can end his turn on as compared to a unit with only 1 range. So there goes Kent’s extra move.
Knoll is number one in summoning, Franz can never claim to be number one in anything at all. Knoll > Franz.
That only applies when Kent can reach an enemy that Erk can’t, which is extremely unlikely to begin with given that Erk’s attack range is only one less (if Kent wants to use Javelin, then you can remove the word “killing” from your statement) and there also needs to be no forests or forts or anything in the way for a solid stretch of 7 tiles, and Erk has to also have absolutely nothing else to attack, and there also has to be no one else who’s going to attack that enemy over Kent, and it also has to be safe for Kent to charge ahead that far. In other words it pretty much never applies, and the idea of it giving Kent significant amounts of Exp which Erk can’t access is fairly silly. I might as well try to argue that Erk’s higher earlygame crit from Thunder gets him alot of unexpected kills and thus alot of Exp that Kent won’t get. Certainly mobility is a positive for Kent, but by no means is it the difference between Kent fighting and Erk doing nothing. This is a combat game, not a racing game.
Right now it’s pretty much only Oswin who can regularly take zero damage, and even he can still be hurt by alot of things, and no one has reliable Avo. The only way there’s only one unit to heal alot of the time is if there’s only one unit attacking in the first place, but that’s a ridiculous notion when you’re fielding not 1, but rather 8 or so attackers. Most people take counters, or take them most of the time, and then some also get attacked on enemy phase, and pplz have a significant chance of taking damage both times, and there’s probably atleast 4-5 units attacking on most turns, more on some turns if you can manage it; since this is still early on and individual offense isn’t good yet, I need way more attackers to kill the same number of enemies compared to what I’d have to use later on in the game. Observe: If I have 3 enemies, Guy can kill one, then Lowen/Eliwood have to gang up to kill one, and Hector/Rebecca have to double-team in order to get the last one, then that’s 5 units just to take out a mere 3 enemies, and they’re all taking counters except Rebecca, and again, no one has reliable Avo early on, not even Guy. So yeah, lol @ healers not having anything to heal. Maybe if you had a team of invincible units, but, you don’t. Arguing that staves are worthless is a pretty tough case to make; staves are essentially a boost to team durability, so in order to argue that staves are worthless, you’d have to argue that durability is worthless.
With this line of thinking, I can easily belittle Kent’s attacking capabilities far more than anyone can belittle Erk’s staff capabilities: In fact, Kent’s ability to attack is almost entirely worthless. You seldom need to add on a 9th or w/e attacker when you already have 8. Not only am I going to have trouble finding things for 9 attackers to all attack on every turn, but using that many also means that I have more units than ever to divide the combat Exp between, so everyone’s on lower levels than they would be otherwise. The addition of a ninth attacker would only matter on the rly huge maps like VoD or something, where you have tons of enemies to cover in multiple areas. Alot of the time it might actually be better to have fewer total attackers, because you’re rarely exerting 9 units’ offense to its full extent, but you’re feeling the effects of those lower levels on everyone all the time. If your unit can only perform a single function which 20+ others can also do, and the other unit can perform that function *and* another one which only 2 others can do, then it makes little sense to try and argue “you have too many pplz who can do this already.” That logic primarily tears down the function which 20+ others can do, leaving only the one which just 2 others can do, and which your unit can’t do at all while the other unit can perform quite competently. |
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