| Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs CATS | |
|---|---|
| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jan 7 2008, 07:56 PM |
 
|
Levels
orly? In Chapter 1, there are 5 enemies, and no one is one-rounding (and sometimes you don’t even two-round), so each gets at least one kill, one shot on the boss, and two regular hits. +.8 level. In Chapter 2, there are 6 enemies. One is near the bottom of the map, and Lyn wants to reach the throne, so either Kent or Sain has that kill entirely to himself. Again, no one is one-rounding, so each can get a shot on the boss, and two regular hits, and 1-2 kills. +1 level. In Chapter 3, there are 9 enemies. Florina is a nub who can barely handle the Axes and gets raep’d by the Bows at this point, and Wil is an Archer so he’s only attacking once per turn (and you’re probably not using him in the main campaign anyway), so it’s still mostly Lyn, Kent, and Sain, with higher levels but more enemies, so +1 level. For Chapter 4 in particular, Kent and Sain can expect to wall in the south entrance (since they have WTA against both the Mercs and Brigands) while Lyn recruits Dorcas and goes down towards the boss, Florina hits up the Mercs, and Wil doesn’t get used. They can see more kills there than anyone else can here, quite easily. +2 levels. Seems like 4-5 levels to me, even after accounting for progressively higher levels throughout the chapters (if anything that just tilts it closer to 4 than 5). Besides, lowering it to 3 doesn’t make a difference—it only lowers Kent’s level lead in the main campaign by 1; it doesn’t, as you’re trying to suggest, give Erk a level lead. That’s quite out of the question.
lol @ this. I thought you were above such tactics, WJC. First, when Erk joins, his Speed isn’t high enough to double LHM enemies, whereas Kent can be doubling them and one-rounding them quite niftily. Thus, there is a counter-reason to give Kent those kills. A level 1 Archer, for example, has 4 Speed. Base Erk has 7, failing to double it. Kent only needs to be level 3 to double it on average, and you said in your post that he’d be level 4, so he most definitely doubles it. Brigands have 5 Speed, and Kent gets them by level 5-6 on average, whereas Erk also needs to be 5-6, and Kent is obviously reaching level 5 earlier than Erk is. There are also Shamans in Chapter 7, 7x, 8, and 10, and even a level 8 Erk can’t 2HKO them (13 Atk – 1 WTA – 2 Res = 10x2 = 20 dmg, and they have 22 HP), whereas Kent can do so at level 8. The only enemies Erk could ever win against would be Knights, but those only appear in boss-form in LHM, and Kent also has advantages over bosses as well (such as Beyard and the bosses that appear before Erk is even there), so naming those would be pretty moot. If Kent can kill lots of enemies that Erk can’t, there most definitely is a reason to let Kent kill it—you’re already hurting your chances of a better gem by abusing Lundgren, but delaying kills just to get Erk to a higher level makes it even worse. Not only that, but Kent also has more Move. Yes, maps in LHM are small, but so is the difference in stats gained when Erk gets a kill and when Kent gets a kill. Since the enemy concentration in LHM is so small, in fact, units are just plowing ahead a lot of the time. Over the course of two turns, Kent has moved four more spaces than Erk has, so an enemy from one to three spaces farther away than Erk’s Atk Range is fair game for Kent. Again, there’s no reason at all to delay killing that enemy just so Erk can get it. Even if all of that that weren’t true, Erk getting closer to gaining a level means that others are getting farther away from gaining levels, as well—if Erk takes 3 more kills than his fair share, that’s 3 less kills that others would have gotten. Since the difference is small, as you said, I’m not gaining or losing much of anything either way. Erk gets a higher level, my other units get lower levels. Those cancel at the best. So, if Erk needs to be forcefed kills just so he can compete with Kent, it’s still an advantage for Kent. Kent gets his kills naturally, his fair share, while Erk has to deprive other units and take more than his fair share. The view that you give the unit that gains more EXP the kill every single time is rather flawed; it’s the same logic as was used against Titania in FE9; it failed then and it fails now. Of course, this is on a much different scale than was the case with Titania, but it applies nonetheless. You have no reason (short of EXP Rank, and LHM EXP Rank is easy to S with Nils and Serra anyway) whatsoever to give kills to Erk over Kent just because he “gains moar stats.” If Titania +8 kills is still better than Boyd +8 kills, then depriving Titania and giving Boyd more kills doesn’t make sense. Similarly, if Kent +4 kills is still better than Erk +4 kills, then giving Erk more kills has no relevance whatsoever. It’s no better than me giving Kent a Speedwing or Dragonshield or something. Finally, if you’re LHM-promoting Kent, you have a major incentive to give him as many kills as possible—the more levels he gains, the less he loses out on by promoting early. In the face of all this, I’d say it’s practically impossible for Erk to have a level lead. And even if he did, he has one measly Defend Chapter and a chapter where he doesn’t even start as a PC unit to get it. On top of that, he’s overlevelled compared to the likes of Lowen, Eliwood, and Rebecca, so he’s gaining less EXP per kill, and so the same logic, according to you, that gave him “priority” over Kent for kills in LHM is now giving everyone else priority over him for kills in HHM. Even if he gets one level in those two chapters, he’d at best have a level lead of one on Kent, and Kent easily closes that, so meh. He shouldn’t have it anyway, as shown.
If it existed, it indeed would. However, in the comparisons in your first post, you were assuming that it never went away (you had Kent consistently two levels lower even after Dragon’s Gate—lol @ that). I was the one who had Kent and Erk at the same levels. Are you now retracting your statements?
Iron Lance Kent damages Lundgren at level 8, and that’s certainly reasonable by the end of Chapter 10. Kent can also use Heavy Spear/Armorslayer and do damage at base level if need be, though he shouldn’t need to do so. Yes, he takes up the 1-Range attack slot, but Nils exists, and you can rotate units out every turn. Chances are you’re only using Sain, Lyn, Erk, and Kent for combat units in LHM. Maybe throw in Lucius or Florina. Sain can damage Lundgren at level 7 with Javelin, so he’s not competing with Kent. Lucius has 1-2 Range, so he’s not competing with Kent. Erk’s not competing with Kent. For Lyn, you have the least reason to abuse her since she’s probably the one who’s going to be killing Lundgren in the end anyway (Mani Katti ftw). Not to mention her promotion in the main game is a bit inflexible, so Lundgren Abusing her just makes her cap ram her level that much faster and hurts your HHM EXP Rank, which is a phail idea. Same applies to Matthew if you throw him in. It seems that the only person who might be competing with Kent is Sain, due to Javelin’s inaccuracy, and maybe Florina, if she’s in play, so that’s not much at all. But, also keep in mind that getting 19xx isn’t always possible. It requires killing Kishuna in 19x in a single turn; even one miss can screw you up, and restarting = too much tedium. Basically, it’s based on chance, so even if you get Nils to level 7 by abusing Lundgren, it’s not guaranteed that you’re going to get 19xx. This means that not only do you lose out on the best gem from LHM, but you also don’t get the items from 19xx to compensate, which phails since Dragon’s Gate with its juicy Killers is right up next. Abusing Lundgren to get 19xx is largely a wager in the first place. Indeed, it seems to me that the majority of the time that you do abuse him is when either Kent or Sain wants to LHM-promote, in which case the brunt of the abuse is being focused on them anyway. So w/e @ Kent not being able to get EXP from Lundgren. Anyway, Erk is never going to have a level lead on Kent like you say—rather, it’s the opposite. Even if he did, it’s only liek 1, so lol; as if it would matter at all. You mentioned Priscilla and Serra being able to heal after this, but we agreed to stop arguing about supports, so meh. I’ll cover healing when I get to Erk’s Staves later on. Offense
The “level gap,” if it exists, favors Kent, not Erk, so if anything it’s a point bigger at that time. At equal levels, 13/0 Erk has 9.8 Mag and 13/0 Kent has 10.8 Str. So that’s +1 right there. And it’s more than just C Sain. Both of Kent’s Supports are pretty uberfast, and we’re assuming optimal Support setup, remember? C Sain/C Lyn is +2 Atk for Kent over Erk. +3 already, before weapons are even considered.
While Erk has Thunder to upgrade from Fire, Kent also has Steel Lance, Killing Edge, Lancereaver and Armorslayer to upgrade to when the need arises before Dragon’s Gate, and Killer Lance/Killer Axe/Killing Edge very consistently after. Combined with a 3-point gap in Atk, this is indeed going to push offense towards Kent. Let me draw up my example from the beginning: Def-Res Peg Knight: -2 Mage: -3 Knight: +8 Shaman: -4 Brigand: +2 Nomad: +2 Cavalier: +5 Merc: +4 Soldier: 0 Fighter: +1 Myrmidon: +1 Archer: +2 Thief: -1 Wyvern Rider: +9 Monk: -9 Assuming Iron Lance (or Iron Sword against Axes) Kent vs. Thunder Erk, Kent wins against: Peg Knight, Mage/Shaman/Monk, Brigand, Myrmidon, Nomad, Archer, Fighter, Thief, Soldier. Considering WTA, he ties against the Merc, but if he pulls out a Steel Lance against it, he wins, and by Pirate Ship, where Mercs are the most common, Steel Lance Kent becomes entirely plausible as they wouldn’t double him anymore. With that in mind, and with Erk having no alternate for better performance against said Mercs, I’d actually say that this, too, is a victory for Kent. Now, Soldiers, Pegs (though not Slim Lance ones), and Archers Erk can probably one-round, and Thieves are pretty insignificant, but he won’t get the Mages, Shamans, Nomads, Myrmidons, and Brigands. Even though Magic isn’t that common right now, there’s a significant number of Shamans in Pirate Ship and Mages in 19x, and Erk can’t 2HKO either set of enemies, whereas Kent can, so that matters as well. Erk can win against Wyvern Riders (not even existent yet), Knights, and Cavaliers. Erk’s victory against Cavaliers is reduced to 2 damage per double if you apply Kent’s initial level lead. If the Cavalier in question has a Sword (Steel or Iron), the gap becomes even shorter: 2 without level lead and 0 with. Or if Kent upgrades to Steel Lance (which he will do on a number of occasions, such as when neither can double or when the enemy has been hurt by another character previously) or Horseslayer, he actually turns the tables around and wins. So Erk’s major victory here is against Knights, a single enemy type. That’s not nearly enough for him to claim a lead in offense. In fact, if Kent ever uses the Armorslayer, which isn’t that unlikely at all, Kent will be winning against Knights as well, and Erk’s offensive advantage against them entirely disappears. Kent’s leads are easily more decisive than Erk’s lead against Cavaliers and Knights. And then, if that isn’t enough for you, Kent also wins against bosses, as illustrated in the first post, since they have good Res and he has a big Atk lead. Sealen, Aion, Darin, Cameron, Bernard, etc. Kent performs considerably better against all of those enemies. Hmm? And you said that Kent was only winning against Pegs and Soldiers? Phail, WJC, phail. And this is all before Dragon’s Gate, where the Atk gap is at its smallest. After Dragon’s Gate (and as the game progresses and you get better and better physical weaponry) Kent raeps Erk in offense by so much that it’s not even a comparison. 20/10 Kent w/Killer Axe, optimal supports: 34.2 Atk. 20/10 Erk w/Thunder, optimal supports: 26.2 Atk. Kent has 8 more Atk. That means that he wins against: Heroes, Warriors, Paladins, Berserkers, Generals, and Swordmasters, since all of those enemies have less than 8 more Def than Res (Generals have 8, but WTA gives Kent the lead there too). They tie against Wyvern Lords, since those have 9 more Def than Res, and Kent has 9 more Atk after WTA. Then they both 2HKO all the unpromoted stuff and Snipers, so w/e. As you can see, Erk never wins against anything at all. Bring Valks or Bishops or Druids into the picture, and Kent is winning by more, since they actually have more Res than they have Def. Against Valks, for example, the 8-Atk gap becomes a total of 21. It’s so bad against those, in fact, that Erk can never ever 2HKO a Valk at all, no matter what level he’s at or what supports he has. Even being downright stupid and giving Erk a 3-level lead or something, like you were trying to do earlier, the gap only decreases by 1, so Kent still w1ns against the vast majority of the stuff. Erk can switch to Elfire, but Kent can switch to Silver Axe, and the Atk gap actually increases by +2 when they do that, so it only hurts him more. Slayer weapons also exist, and Kent can use them to kill enemies he couldn’t get otherwise, while Erk has no such option, so that w1ns, and Kent has moar Crit thanks to the presence of Killer weapons. And bosses still have more Res than Def, or at the very least similar Res and Def. Sonia, Denning, Limstella—all of those units have way more Res than they do Def. Others, like Paul or Jasmine, have at worst a Def-Res gap of 2 or so, which means that Kent wins massively with his huge Atk lead. Do I even need to mention Genesis? Woo Kent.  For Erk to have an offense lead, you’d have to have him be gaining EXP at ridiculous rates, faster than an unpromoted Kent, and Kent has to be denied his supports. I can anticipate you arguing that supports aren’t always in range, but they’re almost always there on Enemy Phase (since it’s the enemy moving then, not the player) so that’s 50% of the time, and they only have to be around half the time on Player Phase to be considered mostly constant, and for the remaining time the unit in question is providing other units with bonuses, so it works out to about the same as if that unit had those bonuses all the time. You could maybe have said earlier that Lyn and Fiora, specifically, aren’t always in range, but we agreed not to attack the supporters (otherwise I could just as easily hurt Erk’s defensive support bonuses, since you have both your healers around the same unit), so it’s too little, too late. +4 from supports, +2-3 from weapon, +1 inherent, +1 WTA = ggnore Erk. Defense
“Ignoring it” (which I didn’t do, btw, since I mentioned it right after the quoted section) is better than making up bullshit about it, like you’re doing.
lol, “Kent takes less damage per hit, but he has to more hits overall” is indeed true. However, you cleverly neglected this: with each additional attack that Kent needs to take to die, the %chance of his dying becomes a lot lower. If 8 hits are needed to kill Kent, and 5 are needed to kill Erk, and Kent takes 8 and Erk takes 5, Kent is winning massively since the chance of all 8 hits striking him in the first place is a lot lower than the chance of all 5 striking Erk: A 90-Hit enemy = 60% real on our two. ~1.68% chance of Kent dying from 8 attacks. 7.78% chance of Erk dying from 5. And that’s without considering Kent’s possible WTA, which becomes almost constant after promotion. w1n
that’s cancelled out by this: “If they don’t get attacked on Player Phase, that means an auto-win for Kent. Kent takes less damage that round, while Erk takes more. This is obvious.” And the situation I mentioned is easily more common, as during the Player Phase, it’s the player in control, not the enemy, and you can only get hit once on Player Phase, whereas you can get hit several times on Enemy. Additionally, earlier on, people aren’t one-rounding a lot, as you yourself said in your last post; if Lowen attacks an enemy and Kent finishes it, Kent takes no damage that Player Phase, just like Erk. This is happening at least a third to a half of the time, depending on the specific part of the game. So Erk’s advantage is now only half of what it would be otherwise, which means that Kent is quite clearly winning.
lol, yeah, let’s totally ignore Hit%. The chance of Kent taking two attacks from a 90-Hit enemy is 48%. The chance of Erk taking one attack from a 90-Hit enemy is 60%. Quite a difference. In fact, it’s such a big difference that it easily overrides any 1-2 Range durability lead that you could possibly argue for Erk (and here you’re not even arguing a lead, you’re just arguing that they’re even, so that’s even worse for him)—12% is quitealot. And if Kent has WTA, the chance of his taking two attacks becomes 10.24%, so the difference is now 37.76%. If Kent OHKO’s an enemy on Player Phase, then neither takes damage on Player but both do on Enemy. If neither attacks on Player Phase, then neither takes damage on Player but both do on Enemy. If Kent finishes off an enemy, neither takes damage that turn but both do on Enemy. Or if they were attacking a 1-2 Range (nonmagical) enemy on Player, both take damage that turn and both do on Enemy. In all of those cases, Kent wins due to greater concrete durability. That, combined with the fact that the probability of Kent taking moar attacks is less likely than the probability of Erk taking fewer attacks, pushes it entirely to Kent.
No, because you said that putting Oswin out in front can lure the enemy away from Erk. If the situation is indeed dire enough to need to do that, Oswin can just Trade Kent a Javelin. You lose something only if Oswin would have been attacking that Player Phase otherwise, and that’s countered by the fact that Kent needs to do it less than Erk since his concrete durability is greater, and so his %chance to die is lower.
If there were two enemies in range, and they could kill Erk combined, they would try it, despite low Hit%, and still attack Erk over Oswin (or at least the first would, and, if it hit, the second would follow), whereas they wouldn’t do this for Kent since they wouldn’t be able to kill him as easily, very rarely in 2 or 3 hits.
Uh? You don’t ever want a nonranged unit in range of a ranged unit ever if you can avoid it. Only if the situation is extremely dire can you say that Erk has an advantage there, and even then, someone can Trade a Javelin to Kent, and Erk’s advantage disappears. Maybe it gives Erk an offensive advantage to not have to switch to a worse weapon, but certainly not a defensive one. And Kent was winning offense clearly anyway, so w/e @ a few ranged enemies. Also, most 1-2 Range enemies are Magical, which Kent can one-round with Javelin or Hand Axe a lot of the time anyway, so lol @ the notion that this somehow matters.
“Erk wins anyway”? No. If Kent OHKOs a magical enemy on Player Phase, and physical enemies comes in and attacks them on Enemy Phase, guess who has the lead? That’s right, Kent. A lead in concrete durability is indeed better than 1-2 Range, even in this case. It’s a different story if you’re facing groups of magicals, sure, but by the time you see those (outside Pirate Ship and 19x), your guys are promoted, so they barely affect durability at all. The only really threatening Magic users later on are Luna Druids and Valkyries. Against Luna Druids, Kent has more HP, so he’s winning durability anyway. Against Valkyries, neither can outrange those, so chances are that they’re not attacking them on Player Phase anyway, in which case Erk’s 1-2 Range is moot, and Erk won’t face them anyway, since his damage against them is pathetic. Finally, with Killer Lance, there’s over a 40% chance of Kent criticalling on the first attack on Player Phase, which means that he doesn’t take damage that Player Phase, just like Erk, and both do on Enemy Phase, so he’s w1nning by a lot again thanks to concrete durability.
The average Atk value on Noble Lady of Caelin is 13-14. It rises to 14-15 in Whereabouts Unknown. And considering that’s the section of the game we’re talking about, it certainly is not rare. It’s the same in Dragon’s Gate, even (14-15). lol @ 40. Even Limstella only has 39. Yeah, let’s pick an enemy they’re never going to face ever (and if they do, it’ll be Kent since he does a lot more damage and can use Killers to Crit her 0 Luck) as opposed to enemies that they’re going to face very often. I’m sure that’s a great idea. :rollseyes: Promotion
That’s essentially the gist of what you just said. Indeed, the chance of playing Lucius is less than his normal Tier List position due to what you said, but, on the same note, it’s also higher by that same logic thanks to his Supports. First, Lucius is one of Serra’s best supports. Serra can get B Erk, but it’s massively slow, so B Lucius > that, and Sain usually has A Kent, so she wants an A support as well, and A Lucius is her fastest by far with the exception of that. Then, Raven wants him as well; Raven only has Rebecca, who is an Archer and one of your worst units earlygame, so she’s unlikely, and she has other options anyway, and Priscilla, who probably doesn’t even want him with her massive support list, headlined by Erk and Guy. So, it’s lower since you don’t want promotion troubles with Erk, but it’s higher since Serra and Raven both want to support him. That balances, and you’re left with Lucius’ worth as a unit—Upper Mid by FEFF standards. Since you tote Staves so much, and he starts with a C, it should be even higher than that according to you. Playing Lucius is indeed a possibility, and as illustrated, he wants to promote before Erk does, since he’s the better Staff user (more Mag, higher Rank).
no, nub. Erk is a healer who can counterattack. Serra/Priscilla are healers who can counterattack and get an EXP boost. Quite a difference. Also, gaining attacking > gaining healing in the first place, since without attacking, you’re almost completely worthless on Enemy Phase—a total and utter liability. Without healing, you’re not being a liability in any way whatsoever. Erasing the tremendous disadvantage of the former is obviously preferable to adding something that Erk isn’t even good at anyway. Even if that weren’t the case, the EXP bonus pushes it towards them overall anyway.
It’s not about when they hit 20. If Erk is promoting at 15/0 with the Guiding Ring, they can be doing so, as well. Since they have an EXP boost, they’ll make up the levels they lost by ending at a higher level, even more than Erk would have. Serra at the worst is 17/0 by Pirate Ship, perfect timing to promotify with the Guiding Ring. She loses 3 levels but gains a lot more in the end due to an EXP boost, so in reality she loses even less than Erk if Erk were to promote early. Priscilla by Dragon’s Gate is . . . maybe 12/0. So she loses 8 levels, but gains about 7 or so overall. It’s plausible for her to promote right when you get the Ring. Or, if not, there’s also the possibility of playing Lucius, in which case he promotes early, and combined together, the chance is almost 0% that Erk gets to promote by Dragon Gate.
You also have 4 times the number of enemies as wounds taken, due to Avoid, Range, WTA manipulation, walling, etc., so that about cancels at the very worst, and then you have EXP boost left over and not being useless on Enemy Phase anymore, so the healers do indeed get priority over the attackers for promoting early. Also, healing someone at 1 HP less than the maximum barely increases that unit’s durability. Finishing off an enemy at 1 HP is a substantial gain to Tactics, and the more units that can do this, the more that can be moving forward toward the next enemy unit. Attacking is itself massively better than healing, since it’s necessary and healing is not. You’re just spewing bull if you say that adding better attackers doesn’t do as much as adding more (not even better in this case) healers—obviously, both have their merits, but healing is something that you don’t need, whereas attacking is something you do need indeed. That about cancels with the fact that your healer options are more limited, so your point is moot.
wth How in the HELL did Erk gain a one-level lead over Kent in LHM? For yes, that’s what would have to be true for Erk to come back at level 13 in Chapter 14 when Kent was 12/1. That’s utterly ridiculous for a number of reasons, the major one being that you’d actually have to forcefeed Erk kills to get him that much higher than Kent in LHM, and the other one being that Kent starts at a higher level to begin with. So this comparison more directly applies: 15/1 Erk, B Priscilla: 12.6 Att, 14.0 AS--30.1 Hp, 8.8 Def, 13.6 Res, 40.2 Avo, 16 crit (21 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves 12/3 Kent, B Sain/B Lyn: 16.2 Att, 13.9 AS--33.0 Hp, 12.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 52.4 Avo, 6.3 crit, full Weapon Triangle, 2 Move h4x’d Now, I see you changed one thing in your comparison: you now have Erk promoting at 18/0 instead of 15/0. If he’s doing this, then Kent isn’t going to promote in LHM anyway, as 18/1 Erk is about the same as 20/1 Erk, and Kent is only matching Erk’s promotion time frame (if Erk wants earlygame h4x in exchange for lategame h4x, so does Kent, etc.).
No. If Erk’s getting EXP from healing when there’s “no attacking to be done,” as you said earlier, then that means that frequently your units are just moving ahead with the full extent of their Move. Each turn, Kent ends up 2 spaces farther than Erk, which means that not only can more enemies reach him on Enemy Phase, but he can reach more enemies on the next Player Phase—there doesn’t even necessarily have to be nothing for Erk to attack, but since Kent has greater Move, he gets better kill choices, so he’ll be going after the enemies that give more lucrative EXP gains (like Soldiers early on—ftw). So, basically, if Erk gets more EXP from having Staves, Kent gets more EXP from having Move, and if those cancel and Erk is promoted and Kent is not, Kent’s gaining EXP at a significantly faster rate than Erk is. Or, if Erk doesn’t get more EXP from having Staves, since, as is more likely, you’re attacking most of the time, Kent doesn’t get more EXP from having more Move but still gains more EXP from being unpromoted, and thus still ends up growing much faster. Finally, Genesis exists, and that’s one of the most EXP-rich chapters in the whole game. These enemies have up to 11 more Res than Def, meaning that Erk killing them is quite out of the question unless you baby him, whereas Kent can kill them quite easily (17/0 Kent w/Killer Lance = 27 Atk, and that kills all of them, whereas Erk needs to have 34 Atk to get them all, and he doesn’t _ever_ get that, not even at 20/20 w/Elfire, rofl). You could say “desert,” but there are enemies outside of the desert, too, whereas in Genesis all the enemies are enemies that Erk struggles with.
Except that when neither is attacking, Erk’s 1-2 Range isn’t going to allow him any advantage, whereas Kent’s Move will indeed let him move farther ahead that turn. Two Move, 4 spaces, difference in total Atk Range = 3, or a full 4 if Kent uses Javelin. Yeah, Javelin is inferior to Kent’s standard equip, but if it can do the job (and it can increasingly do so as time goes on, or if Kent is just finishing an enemy someone else attacked, or doing the initial damage so someone else can finish, which isn’t unlikely early on), it makes Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage completely disappear. Erk can never make Kent’s Move advantage disappear outside of the desert, which is combated by Kishuna chapters, and terrain, where at the worst it’s a tie. Besides, Javelin is only 1 Mt. less than Iron Lance, so earlier on it has to be a situation where a damage difference of exactly 2 is the difference between killing and not killing for Kent to be unable to use it comfortably. That certainly is the case sometimes, but when it’s not, Kent does indeed want to use Javelin, which heightens his advantages and lowers Erk’s advantages, and Erk can’t reverse that situation, so w1n for Kent. Oh, and 1-2 Range doesn't even affect the enemies' ability to reach Erk on Enemy Phase, whereas Kent's 2 Move does indeed. And this isn’t even touching rescuing or visiting villages or anything like that.
Staves vs. Move, you mean, so no, it doesn’t let Erk get to a higher level. Close it, sure, but never actually turn the tables.
If it’s “pretty often the case” that you don’t need additional attackers, then it’s also “pretty often the case” that Kent and Erk are using all their Move, in which case Kent ends each subsequent turn farther and farther ahead, so he can reach more/be reached by more, and, therefore, gets better kill choices/more kills. Also, if Erk is stopping to heal, he may be using less than the full extent of his Move, so that makes him fall back even further. So it’s that and gaining more combat EXP per kill vs. healing when they’re not attacking—thus the level gap does indeed decrease and eventually close. Also, again thanks to his Move, even when there are going to be attackers “floating around,” Kent is less likely to be one of them. People like Oswin and Bartre, maybe, but not high-Move units like Kent and Sain. When healing is just a substitute for attacking, which it is in the majority of cases, there’s not even a notable difference between that and if Erk had just attacked the enemy instead, so that doesn’t even matter. Or, when you’re facing higher leveled enemies and bosses (which Kent wins against, by the way), like in the example I gave, the actual gap in combat EXP is quite large. From two of those level 12 enemies, for example, there’s already a difference of 28, over 5 times the amount of EXP given by Heal. Enemy levels actually do increase as the game goes along, or else you’d never see promoted enemies. When promoted enemies do appear, actually, the gap rises to even moar since they start out pretty evenly in levels as compared to your characters (20/2 Kent to 1 Hero or something). Of course, Erk’s lead is probably entirely diminished by then, but that’s just in case it weren’t. Anyway, with Serra and Priscilla/Lucius, +LHM to add to Kent and Erk’s levels, Erk isn’t promoting before 18/0 or thereabouts anyway, so discussing early promotion is rather moot. Staves
In your example: Lowen attacks w/Javelin, doesn’t get countered. Eliwood finishes. No damage taken. Rebecca attacks with Bow, doesn’t get countered. Hector finishes. No damage taken. Guy attacks with Sword. Maybe he takes damage, maybe he doesn’t (if he’s attacking an Axe user, chances are that he won’t; if he’s using the KE, he also might Crit). Only one unit possibly damaged? h4x. Or, if Javelin is too inaccurate for you, realize that since we’re talking about Erk’s Staves, this isn’t the very start of the game; this is considerably later on (around Dragon’s Gate if you promote early, later if not). In which case, people’s Hit ratings with Javelins are indeed becoming more accurate. Lowen, specifically, doesn’t yet have good Hit with Javelin, that’s true, but keep in mind that for Lowen, taking damage doesn’t matter that much after about level 14. Healing someone like him, Hector or Oswin is usually just “lol I got EXP,” which is considerably less valuable than actually increasing someone’s durability, as you’re trying to claim Erk does. AND Avoid is starting to work more reliably—you’re arriving at the promotion point, where almost everyone has at least two weapons for WTA manipulation to make Avoid ratings soar compared to enemy Hit ratings, which actually falls thanks to the upgrade to Steel weapons. People are also starting to use Killers now, for at least 30 Crit (moar with half Skill, and moar if the unit has an S Rank in that weapon type, and obviously some from Supports, so an average of 40-45 is probably more accurate), or 1/3 chance to OHKO each and every enemy, in which case 1/3 of the time no damage is taken, and at least another 1/3 of the time no damage is taken again due to Avoid. The 1/3 of the remainder features Hector, Oswin, Lowen, etc., so chop off something from that, and tack on people who use 1-2 Range not to take counterattacks, and you’re left with hardly anything for Erk to heal with the presence of two other healers. Erk replacing Priscilla’s action, especially when Priscilla is still unpromoted (which is the case for a while when Erk promotes before Serra and Priscilla), means little, if anything at all.
Except that the worth of Res can be objectively measured by looking at the number of Magic Users in the game, and their power. One can quite clearly deduce that it’s not worth very much as compared to Def, Spd, etc. The worth of Move (or healing) isn’t as easy. I can belittle healing. You can belittle Move. If we can’t decide objectively, then the debate about Move vs. Staves is entirely subjective, and so we’d do well to assume them equal.
Rebecca being the best Bow User does indeed give her an advantage over Lowen. Unlike in the Move vs. Staves situation, however, we don’t have to resort to relative values in this case. Bows suck. This is obvious to anyone who’s played the game, or even knows about the mechanics of the game. They fulfill a certain niche, so she gets points for that, but not very much at all. I cannot, however, say that having more Move sucks. I can’t say that having Staves sucks. Both are indeed useful, and they share neither in common. Kent is the best mobile unit, Erk is not the best Staff user. That’s already an advantage to Kent. Kent has more Move both before and after promotion, Erk only has Staves after promotion. Another advantage to Kent. Now, if we can determine Staves to be inherently > more Move, that’s an advantage to Erk, but Kent has two advantages to Erk’s one, and even if that one were great enough to override the other two, the margin wouldn’t be great at all, certainly not great enough to override Kent’s other advantages.
oh yea? I can belittle your case as easily as you can belittle mine: “Knoll has Summoning and combat, Franz just has combat. Knoll > Franz.” That’s essentially what you’re trying to imply with your case about Erk’s Staves, is it not? In fact, Knoll also has Staves, so I can belittle your case even further: if functions cancel each other out, then Knoll is massively better than Franz, since he has three functions to Franz’s one. Knoll for Top Tier.
Move is a stat just like Def, Str, or Spd are stats. Move’s an obvious improvement; it doesn’t necessarily have to be a second function. You might as well say that Alan being better than Lilina at combat and mobility doesn’t matter since Staves is a second function that only Lilina has, whereas combat is a single function that they share in common and higher mobility isn’t even a function. Besides, even if Staves were > Move by a lot, Kent has more Move, more offense, and more defense, all vs. Staves, so you’d have to argue the value of Staves as being enough to override all of that, which is a pretty tough case to make. For Erk to add durability to your team via Staves, there would have to be at least three wounds to be healed (add in Lucius and/or Pent, and it becomes more, up to five, which is pretty ridiculous to begin with if you have “additional attackers just floating around”), otherwise all he’s doing is letting your other healers attack, which isn’t worth much at all since it’s just switching actions rather than adding one. Not only that, but those three damaged units would have to also be units that would need the healing (not Oswin or Lowen or tanky types), AND the enemies would have to have been particularly damaging, AND there would have to be more enemies ready to attack. If there’s “frequently no attacking to be done,” that means less damage is taken, and therefore, there are fewer wounds to be healed, so that works both ways, son. Also, killing faster is always an advantage since it lets you progress faster no matter what the circumstance. It’s not just adding a 9th attacker—it’s adding a h4x 9th attacker, with awesome offense and defense and mobility. That’s the fundamental difference that you keep ignoring. You’re trying to say “well, combat < combat + Staves,” but in reality it’s moar liek “combat Level 4 > combat Level 2 + Staves”, after accounting for both Kent’s offense and defense leads. Throw in mobility, and you have a landslide victory for Kent. Also account for the fact that Erk is one of the worst Staff users (starts with bad Rank and later on has the lowest Mag), and it’s quite clearly Erk that has a mountain to climb, not Kent. Not to mention that Staves only starts existing as an advantage for Erk after he promotes; Kent’s advantages always exist.
2? No. Priscilla, Serra, Lucius, Pent, and Canas if you’re using him. Athos in Final. Nino and Renault very rarely. At the least five other units can perform the function as well—2 is quite an exaggeration. And 20+? Don’t joke. For that to be the case, you’d have to include the likes of Bartre and Wil, and then say that they’re just as capable of killing and surviving, or nearly as capable of killing and surviving, as Kent is.
Kent does indeed add to the team’s durability, my friend. Killing enemies much faster lets the team take less blows, first of all, and, secondly, since Kent’s durability is better than Erk’s, Kent can take on large sections of enemies and divert attacks from the rest of the team as well. 1-2 Range can’t even be applied in this case, so the gap is indeed quite large—3-4 attacks against some things, h4x.
So, basically, you mean, don’t add much at all, since that situation is rare with so many other healers around (at best the advantage is reduced to “let your other healers take different actions,” which is phail in comparison to what you’re trying to pass Staves off as). Also, I notice that you keep using Lyn and Fiora as specific examples. It’s clever of you to still argue against supporters even after we agreed not to do so. To that I will only respond with a quotation of my last post: You also have both of the other important Staff Users (Serra and Priscilla) Supporting Erk, so Erk adding Staves doesn’t spread out your possible Staff Range—it just makes it so that you have one more Staff user where there were already two gathered together, which phails. lol I bolded the important part. -- So, what have we got? Kent is winning offense for pretty much the whole game (+1 inherent Pow lead, +4 from Supports over Erk, +2 from Killer Lance vs. Thunder, +1 WTA, for a total of +8, and more with Axes/Silver weapons), is winning defense since concrete durability > 1-2 Range, and has +2 Move. Erk only has Staves, so Staves have to be > all of Kent’s leads for Erk to even stand a chance. If Erk promotes early, Kent does too, to match his early promotion, so that’s entirely moot, not to mention Erk promoting early is in itself a ridiculous notion since Serra/Priscilla are almost always in play in this debaet, and Lucius might be as well. Kent >>> Erk. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
 |
|
| Solid vs CATS · Debates | |
- Fire Emblem Fusion
- →
- Fire Emblem
- →
- Fire Emblem 6-8
- →
- Debates
- →
- Viewing Single Post From: Solid vs CATS
| Theme: Fire Emblem Fusion - Green |
 9:22 PM Nov 26
|
| Affiliates |
|
| Topsites |
|
| Fire Emblem Fusion Skin, © Cubic and SwordsAreShiney. |
Hosted for free by ZetaBoards
