Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Former Guest

Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Former Guest
Mekkah	Mar 9 2008, 07:17 AM
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	I swear every time I try to make a debate short and to the point someone counters with their characters' biography and a massive essay. @_@ Quote: My client has every right to be glum. He once belonged to a cult which enjoys practicing child genocide among other evils, and his thoughts of regret have left him no time to wriggle out of his Lopt outfit. Dude knows his place. It's to man up and accept he has more of a background role while two other units with staves teach him lessons in level leads and utility. Penchants for getting kidnapped seem to run in Saphy's family. I guess her people skills need some work or her position of piety wouldn't be treated as less than nothing. Salem can civilly negotiate with thieving masterminds like Parn, so he must be doing something right. Or, from unbiased standpoint: Attractive Priest from Tahra so desirable that not only she but also her underage sister get kidnapped vs Evil guy that chickens out only to join another evil organization ("they don't kill innoncents" on me all you want, they're still thieves) to save his life. Sorry, correction: these thieves save HIS life. I'm afraid being able to negotiate with Parn isn't exactly a huge feat. Trewd is his best buddy and he doesn't seem very bright either, and it only takes Lifis or Lara to make him change his mind as well. Quote: Does 15/0 sound reasonably uninflated for Saphy on the Dandelion map? Well, that depends on what rank we're taking. So, we'll have to tackle this first: Quote: I'm inclined to believe as per your recent comments on the tier thread that this goal is only attainable on Elite Mode. You'll have to excuse me not to care so much as a result. FE5 Triple S rank is the kind of insanity that makes European Extreme Big Boss rank for the MGS series break down and weep, no envy involved I assure you. Try framing your arguments to accomodate lowering the rank bar a little. After all, an A grade is nothing to be hanging one's head in shame at, and isn't assigned lightly unless the judge is high, a numbnuts or who knows what. Lowering the bar here would be about the same as using Eliwood Hard Mode instead, or settling for 4 stars all around in HHM. It's common sense to use the highest standard possible in a debate, which would be non-Elite Mode SSS-rank, in which case Saphy is the undisputed winner. I'm willing to go through on a lower standard, however it would be technically for kicks because there is no way Salem can best Saphy on the highest level. The one truth being unreachable didn't make philosophers stop: in fact, I think a really really hard goal to press units against gives a better measurement for their true helping than a goal that you can reach even when using worse units. If it was about equally easy to get the highest rank with the best or the worst unit, then there's no real point in tiers or character debates, is there? And lowering the bar does not help Salem's case versus Saphy. It becomes 270 turns instead (or 250 and passing up a character), and you get ~9 turns per map instead. Closer to 8 if you go to more than 7 gaidens. That still commands the use of Warp way more often than you can use by replacing Saphy by any other (later-lower-level) staff user. It's good to lay this stuff out though, FE5 debates seem relatively unexplored in their standards so we really should go on about this, perhaps moreso outside than inside this debate (because it is clearly more favorable right now for you to stress the nonviability of the highest rank possibility). Either way, back to this: Quote: Does 15/0 sound reasonably uninflated for Saphy on the Dandelion map? If we're playing for SSS-rank and Elite Mode, she should be pretty much promoting right now. If we're going for A, I'll accept it. Quote: Salem is one of three magicians in the game starting out with good ranks in multiple fields of study who can promote, and happens to be viable/adaptive enough to do so for his services rendered. I don't really get how this is helping Salem's case vs Saphy in FE5, I don't get why you're bringing other games into this (especially since being prepromoted is a good thing even outside the Knight Proof-scarce FE5) and in some games (such as FE4 or GBA FEs) no one really cares about these nice flashy magic types you can use, since one type would clearly stand out over the others (Anima in GBA, Wind in FE4). Quote: Signs of Saphy's past achievements starting to pale are already evident thanks to scenario possibilities presenting themselves like Salem being able to slink behind Lifis after he plucks a slim sword off some stray thief and OHKO it with Jormung for EXP while Saphy laments nobody has wounds to heal. You seem to be talking about 12x here, in which case Saphy would be Warping someone to capture Trewd, secure treasure or make everything run away by allowing Lara to talk to Parn to make the whole map quicker altogether. She's done more than any other unit can do at this point, so it's okay if she just heals for the rest. It seems like Salem's relatively best chapter too: he's always there and there's things he can OHKO. I lack enemy samples but I really doubt his Yotsmung OHKO is going to be consistent throughout the game, especially considering its shaky 84 base hit and the single-RN system plus the broken terrain bonuses in this game. Of course there's other factors that determine hit, but usually those cancel each other out: Leaf's leadership is usually overridden by that of the enemy, and Nanna will not always be there or near him. And will he always be OHKOing like that as he does on one of the weakest combat classes? I hope he does, because he won't be reliably doubling for a while either way. And the 12x Archers, for example, double him when he has Yotsmung equipped. Quote: With Leaf's fan club spreading like wildfire during the later half of 776, Saphy can't help but fade into the crowd more than Salem will and nothing is going to change that. Unit cooperation is not a one way street. Even ignoring the blatant favoritism aspect of pepping her up with stamina drinks whenever she fatigues, she's practically guaranteed to consume all the drinks you receive for free. Is it any wonder? Her endgame HP would have been competition for Salem's way back when he joined! And a staff tends to increase the fatigue meter by more than 1 mark when it's got less charges than heal. How's that for opting to be a selfish bitch? The drinks are expensive items, some of which you could have been holding on to for sale consideration or other characters might like. That's a lot of rukus, but weakened by the fact that most of your early scrolls give a bit of a HP boost and they're available for Saphy for longer than Salem. That should give her like 1-2 extra on its own overall, I guess. Then she's one of the best candidates for either of the Life Rings you get. But even then, being fatigued just means she can sit on the bench and allow Nanna or someone else to come in and rock. She's alright with that, because her leveling will be quite fine consistently throughout the game thanks to staves (+Elite Mode) while many others lag. Plus, fighting takes up a lot of energy: Salem, for example, may have to fight on enemy phase, and that tacks onto his fatigue as well. Saphy should only be getting stamina drinks when the benefits of that override the cost of that one drink. Otherwise, she'll be fine sitting it out. Being on the bench allows others to get a spot and more action, so it's not just a point against her. Quote: 3, 7, 8, 8x, 9, 10, 11, 11x, 12 C rank in staves has you in very good standing already and well, I can see where you're coming from with the first four chapters. Saphy able to tag along for three consecutive chapters before any stamina drinks? Naw. But of course. I took that into account when I said seven chapters. Quote: Most of the group is removed to such an extent from Saphy's entrance down south on ch. 7, a long vertical map, that she won't get to heal too many people unless they'd rather not use their vulneraries and thus be forced to refrain themselves from ganging the reinforcements for no good reason that I can think of, so her main patient will be Finn. Actually I'd say that in that map, you should Hicks Halberd the boss into oblivion right away so you can focus on getting items, getting Shiva, maybe getting some other swords, then get out ASAP. Saphy will be one of the few getting some EXP here as Fin can use the arena or the Brigand group to fight and train swords. Or they can move down to make Shiva and a few other swordies come to them to make his recruitment easier. Quote: 8 is a relatively short and easy chapter for this game. Saphy won't be getting her staff on too much either. The boss has to be captured and that's pretty annoying in itself, and people are bound to get poisoned at least once, so she has plenty to heal if needed. Nanna is fatigued for this one too, so she's on her own. And you'll want to train Carrion, whose avoid is not reliable yet (though not bad either). Quote: Dagda's mansion is where she can take a lot of credit. Leaf is always fielded, Lifis is definitely getting fielded here, and Shiva is another distinct possibility. Everything falls into place for the most part. yarr Quote: Noel Canyon: Note that her assistance is going to be more straitjacketed than usual for two chapters in a row starting with this one. Ballistas are so merciless she is still possibly OHKOd if she climbs on peak terrain in Leaf's support range. Healing with physic is fine but it's only 5 charges tops. She's very likely to be fatigued here so that's okay. Quote: On chapter 11, once you befriend Fred you have no way to reach the ballistas prick extraordinaire Kempf ambushes you with until you ascend all the way up that narrow locked door stairwell. She'll likely have to be confined to one of their blind spots in that central square alcove or outside the Dandrum perimeter, healing at range, and to add insult to injury can't do jack about the ballistas not so adverse to sadistic Fred targeting. Saphy can just stay at the beginning and maybe Physic if needed. I really doubt you can advance in this map quickly anyway because Saphy is not the only unit who gets raped by these amazing ballistae, so you might be forced to wait out all the bolts or something. The mere possibility to Warp in someone next to one of the ballista makes Saphy's existence here a huge point in her favor though. You may want to save it for other occasions, but it's there. Quote: Murder Hollace has narrow corridors and fog of war to navigate, and she's pretty restricted at first again. Budging far into the western alley wouldn't be too beneficial - with archers lurking on the sidelines, any damage she incurs is a turn she spends not healing a combat unit. This is one of the maps where she can use the Torch staff to get EXP and allow other units to see and do other things instead of using one of these 1-use Torches. She can also use Magic Up to protect others from the long range magic assaults. Quote: Oh hey it's Sleuf! Yeah - he sucks. Or, he does not exist at all. Lose-lose. Thanks for the scroll, though. Even desperately spamming rewarp in an effort to catch up and be special will do anything but ensure he's making it onto a given map team before lots of other people. That mediocre paladin he has to be fielded to recruit included. Next. I haven't even played his route but yeah. Quote: Not necessarily. There is this wondrous staff called magic up that with some harmless positioning can be traded to bolster the resistance of whoever has below 3 magic to little Tina's thief staff. Just another way for both our characters (and possibly Nanna if she's not taking a break) to demonstrate their utility on the very first turn and score EXP besides clearing the fog of war. Too bad it might be gone already because there's more occasions when you'll want to use the M Up, like the chapters before this one. It has only 5 uses, y'know. Not having to use it is obviously better than having to use it. Saphy's Warp saving up for that is a point in her favor. If it needs to be Repaired, more points to her. Quote: Unless you forfeit Trewd, a considerable smorgasbord of EXP, and extra spoils from thieves/reinforcements, then no matter what, one or some of the treasures are probably going to be lost to you. The difference is that if you don't Warp someone in the middle of the fray, you forfeit nearly all the spoils, while if you do only one or two get stolen. I think I saved them all once with a high build Lifis being in there. Forfeiting Trewd is obviously out of the question unless you want to take 20 turns extra and not forfeit any other recruitment. Quote: But this daring feat wouldn't be complete without a downside - the warped character that's able to capture him in one round is forced to haul him about for most of the chapter and look stupid fighting brigands. Just sit on the throne for 10 Def/30 Avo and you'll be fine. Or just let Lifis steal Sleep. Or the mere fact that you can Warp Leaf to the throne to speed things up helps her case. Quote: Flyers took nerf bats to the face in this game. One of Dean's faults is that his mobility is often restricted on outdoor maps because ballistas were given the most major buff they've had since the afterthought obstacles in Genealogy. Freege loves to deploy them often, in high numbers, cunningly and they even get leadership bonuses to sharpen their accuracy. You see what I'm getting at. Unfortunately, in order to not hang out of range and cower like a civilian unit, he's going to have to jump off his wyvern, stick to swords, and his class loses the most stats dismounted. The dragonspear is faultless as a weapon for combat and capturing purposes, but Dean is a flyer who doesn't get to be as awesome with it as he could be, especially when you consider he only gets that awesome for 9 maps. Just saying. Sure, that's annoying stuff, but whenever the Dragon Lance could be used freely (like in the I'm-ganna-split-routes chapter with Ralph) it is so really really wow and Saphy is getting credit for it and Salem is not. I believe you can also attack with it once, then dismount, should you want to Dragon Stab something in ballista range just once. Quote: Mountain out of a molehill. With the very few charges of the first warp staff you have, how much turn count impact can that possibly translate to? Mount a defense for blowing all five of her Hammerneish charges on Corple's present instead of personal weapons if you want. I wouldn't get your hopes up for me digesting it seriously, though. Eh, if you're going for an A rank you can get a second one in 12x by waiting out the dancer reinforcements, and it'll be paid back later. Whether Saphy uses Repair on Prf weapons or on the Warp staves she uses to decrease turn count does not help you belittle her case, since she can do both. If one is better than the other, then she can always do that, and if they are arguable, she still has the option of both. Quote: From 12x onward at the very least, he can do at least twice as much and not submit to fatigue as often compared to a promoted Safy by what, 16a/b? Next post I'll elaborate on this in more detail with a breakdown by chapter which shouldn't get too text wallsy. Brace yo' self. @______@ more text Salem is completely relying on that attacking possiblity of his, but that also makes him build up twice the fatigue, so it comes down to about the same.


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