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| Mekkah | Jun 23 2008, 01:39 AM |
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Yes, and everyone is better than Wendy at that point as well. What exactly is your point? Wendy is horrid for so much longer.
The game isn't over after this chapter though. Au contraire, it only just started. You are right in that the majority of enemies in her joining chapter are about as fast as Microsoft's customer service, though you managed to overlook (or ignore) the Armorslayer Merc reinforcements that plow in right behind Wendy, and one round her with ease. This is also the last Ostia chapter - pretty much the last chapter in which you encounter Soldiers, and Knights will be much rarer from now on. If anything, Wendy's durability takes a further plunge, as the Western Isles are full of Fighters, Pirates and Brigands that one-round her with ease. Mages will continue to be quite common (they are already very common in her joining chapter btw, and have the highest range of all enemies in there) and there will also be Shamans, etc. Juno's relative joining situation is much much better than Wendy. For one, Juno cannot get one-rounded other than if something like a Silver Bow Sniper hits her when she doesn't have the Delphi Shield. Note that this particular enemy needs to walk into Juno's attacking range first before being allowed to attack her, and that if Juno for some reason wishes to fight it, she can strike it up-close without being countered. This is much much worse for Wendy, who gets one-rounded by, say:   The situation here is reversed for Wendy: the Pirate has 1 more movement and 1 more attacking range (assuming you don't whip out lolJavelin), and as you can see, he has 8 AS and 19 Atk, enough to one-round up to L3 Wendy. Mages will also always continue to screw the hell out of Wendy. The only magic enemies she wins in durability against is ones with Aircalibur, but those will always double Wendy until she promotes, and from there she still isn't safe from being doubled, and against everything else with magic Juno wins durability by a huge amount anyway.
Hm, no, I think it does not exist. There are several problems with the assumption of Wendy Triangle Attacking in her joining chapter: - It requires Bors to be fielded. Bors is terrible. We're already scraping the bottom of the barrel with the units we're defending here. Compounding the suck with another inflexible Armor Knight is not a great idea. Bors absolutely stinks during the early chapters, having terrible performance against axemen, and also getting doubled by cavaliers and only having four move. So either you'd have to train him and pile up a lot of suck through chapters one to seven, or we're fielding a base level Bors just for Wendy to be able to use Triangle Attack. Not only that, but we're carrying Bors around to Wendy's group with some mounted unit because he cannot keep up at all. - It requires all Armor Knights in position. All three of them have four move, and the three of them standing around attacking the same enemy is obviously not something you'd do if the Triangle Attack wasn't there, so you have to go out of your way to do it, big time. Arguing for the Triangle Attack is like arguing for fielding Wendy in a gaiden with little space - you can do it, but you are giving Wendy beneficial treatment and merely moving the problem of her suckitude to somewhere else. In this case, you are trying to negate Wendy's horrible hit rate, damage output and wet-cardboard-defense simply by using Bors (and he sucks, both at base level and not at base level, and he sucked during 1-7) and hindering the flexibility of other units. And at the end of the day, Juno is part of the Triangle Attack too, but at a part of the game where there's more unit space, and one of the people involved is actually halfway decent (Tate) while the other is pretty bad, but still better than both Bors/Barth (Thany), and these are units with more movement and move again, meaning you have to go out of your way to a lesser extent to give Juno a Triangle Attack kill than for Wendy. And after Wendy's joining chapter, you'd have to field Barth too in addition to Wendy and Bors. Do I need to go on about how terrible that is, especially on chapters like the Western Isles?
I see you did your homework and picked a Pirate that is weighed down to the maximum. Above example leaves a L3 Wendy with rounded up Skl and Luk with 63% real hit by the way, so the example is fine, it's just that there are more enemies out there than that one, such as Fighters/Pirates with Iron/Poison Axes. Not that 63.45% real hit is worth praising, that's a 37.55% chance that Wendy misses. Against above Pirate, that spells her demise more than a third of the time you do it. And even if she doesn't die, she is now standing in the way. Given the chokepoint-happy nature of the Western Isles, other units will have trouble reaching said Pirate now, especially since Javelins will have pretty shitty accuracy on him. Wendy will indeed have under 50 hit at times. If we put above Pirate on a forest tile, he now has 38 evade rather than 18, so that 85-hit-with-Iron Wendy faces 27.75% real hit with WTD factored in. Man, that is so terrible. That's what you'd expect enemies to have on player characters. You bring up supports, but they are not helping her in this specific case. Oujay is 25 turns for a C, which she obviously doesn't have yet since even if one is taken into 8x, the other likely is not, and Astol takes even longer (about 30). We'll get to those supports later anyways.
Having 4 mov is always bad, and having 5 mov after promotion is still 99% as bad (she can now keep up with Fa and Roy, and still lose to everyone else by the same amount, how amazing). Wendy's mov is never average. And when terrain comes into play, it becomes even worse for her, especially when comparing her to Juno. You seem to be under the impression that having more Mov is useless if you aren't storming through the chapter, and that the existence bottlenecks in FE6 therefore negates Wendy's immobility. This couldn't be more wrong - movement also defines from where you can attack an enemy: perhaps in support range, or on favorable terrain, or which enemy you can attack. Wendy is going to have very little choice in what and from where she attacks enemy, and she was already completely constrained to enemies on low health, and she already always has a chance to get hurt badly or killed in return. Bottlenecks even hurt Wendy's case further, since if she fails to kill something now but survives the enemy onslaught, she is now occupying the space she's standing on. People with more move and better 1-2 range have the option of attacking from somewhere else, like behind the enemy, but Wendy will almost always have to take them up front, since she couldn't be in enemy range on enemy phase. Juno can sit on anything, even a river or a mountain, and attack people from there if needed.
There's Steel Axe Pirates, but also plenty of Iron/Poison/Hand Axe ones. Steel Axe ones are the least threatening of them anyway. Wendy being two-rounded by them is still terrible enough. Mages never completely disappear, where are you getting this idea? Mages are the magicians of choice for Bern/Eturia armies. 8x: 5 Mages 9: 3 Mages 10A: none 11A: none, but 9 AS Shamans just the same 12: more Shamans 13: 2 Mages 14: plenty plenty of Mages...lol at Wendy being fielded in the desert anyway. Go 1 mov. 14x: Two long-range magicks, and two Druids, one with lolEclipse, but the other with Nosferatu 15: Huge ass range Valkyries and a few generics. 16: Massive Mage fests going on. 16x: Dominated by Magic. etc
Too bad she misses a lot of the time, and needs that thing to be set up for her to begin with, which is obviously a huge failure for combat, tactics and unit flexibility in general. She gets either one-rounded or two-rounded most of the time...lol "she can take a hit".
Wendy is never truly good. No matter what your stats are in the end, if you have 5 movement and the two least accurate weapons in the game (and as a consequence, lame 2-range), you can only be mediocre. At the point where her stats are halfway good, other people finished their supports and succesfully outgrew enemies and can use cool weapons and stuff. No reason to let Wendy frontline when anyone can do it, anyone who we don't have to wait for. No reason to clear space for Wendy's presence when someone else can kill just kill in her stead. Juno's not good either at this point, obviously, but she will at least be useful to pick off things left hanging at low HP without getting in the way and without being behind on movement space to begin with, like Wendy. Remember, now that enemies can actually be one-rounded, people will move the full pace more often, and every time they do that, Wendy is one extra space behind on normal foot units, three on promoted mounts. Yes, Wendy can officially tank against unpromoted Cavaliers. Congratulations, you're mediocre. She's also rather borderline on doubling them by the way: Ch13 ones have 11-12 Spd, so these Ch17 ones should be around 12-14 (HM boni increase for enemies as the game goes on), and are weighed down by 2 on Javelin/Axereaver, 4 on Steel Lance, so that's 8-10 AS with Steel Lance, 10-12 with anything else (and they like to use Javelins more). 18/3 Wendy has 15.4 Spd, about 49% chance of 14 or lower, 31% chance of 13 or lower...lame.
I believe I showed Wendy isn't better off than Juno for durability, but we'll get to that. Still, 4 more mov, ignoring terrain and move again can be seen as a durability edge in itself, since you are much better at attacking from spots where other enemies cannot reach you, and you can position yourself much more easily somewhere where other people can go in front of you.
Naw, there's a village with a Knight Crest in Ch21 that she can get.
Transporting people is useful even if team durability increases. You are confusing it with using rescue to get people out of the fray. Transporting via rescue gives other people more mobility, and also allows you to get someone who already attacked out of the way to attack again. It also allows you to dump some offense monster in the middle of a group of enemies somewhere else, to prevent them from joining a bottleneck your main army is bound to encounter.
Juno is providing an extra flexible player phase attack for enemies that she can finish off. That alone is a net positive addition to the team, which is more than Wendy can say. She's not good now, and she was extremely terrible before. Juno's additional pros may be small, but they're there. There's none really for Wendy, she just sucks a lot more and for longer.
I was assuming Wendy was waiting for promotion until she hits 20/0, but apparently she's not. She will still be using that Knight Crest, or if not, she's stuck with bad stats, 4 mov and now hurting EXP rank. So yes, this matters. Padding EXP rank might be given equal worth to this in a game like FE4 or FE7, where the requirement is ridiculous and EXP gain gets super shitty. FE6 HM knows no EXP cut, and also has good units that help EXP rank (Gonzales, Miledy, Fa), and in addition plenty of healers and dancers. You have plenty of funds too, but you can spend that on better weapons/staves, or using more of them before you get Silver Card, which means better other ranks.
Good thing you're aware of how terrible combat counters good EXP gain. Now that I explained how the triangle attack is not helping Wendy's case at all, that still leaves us with the same good old 1.3 per map. FE6 maps "being long" doesn't suddendly improve her. That also gives other people more EXP, and also gives her more combat suck for longer, so the team is still relatively much better off than Wendy, which easily cancels out any advantage she gains in a comparison with Juno for the last few chapters of the game. But my comparison still stands, because I can confidently take off Ch14 from the list, in which Wendy has 1 mov and gets raped by Brigands, Wyvern Lords and Mages all over the map. So even if she gained 1.7 rather than 1.3 per map for, say, 5 maps and thus 2 extra levels, 1.3 of that is canceled by not getting into the desert. Sure as hell don't want her into 11/12 either, where rushing is the norm for recruiting Tate/Klein/Gonzales/villagesaving, and where she thus is deprived of more EXP.
Oujay sucks. He is in a similar situation as Wendy: joins massively underleveled, two-rounded by everything, and his 2-range option might as well not exist. He is more reliable at accuracy than Wendy, but in trade his power output blows monkey dick due to a lock to swords, and his competition for a Hero Crest is massive (Dieck and Rutger are nearly always in play, Lot and Geese are middle ground and Fir is good enough to be considered). And as you said, his support list sucks otherwise, so he isn't even benefitting someone else. Again a case of Wendy shoving her suck to the rest of the team: she gains support bonuses, but at the cost of dragging a bad unit into play where I could have used a better one, so my overall combat worth is probably even worse than before. Even if Oujay somehow manages to get a spot on your squad, Wendy is hardly ever going to get to build up with him, since rarely will it occur that both will be able to expose themselves on enemy phase. Arguing for a thief support? I thought you were better than that. Chapters where Astol is fielded are chapters where Astol is off to get chests. Chest rooms hardly if ever have enemies in them, so combat bonuses are pretty useless. If Astol is fielded in a chapter where this isn't the case, then he's merely being an inferior unit taking up a spot to give bonuses to Wendy. That's not being better off overall. Later on Astol runs around at 20/0, unable to promote, so him seeing combat is completely undesirable. Interestingly, the chapters wherein you're arguing Wendy to be better than Juno have very little business for Astol: 21 has no chests, 21x has two, but they contain Mamkutes half of the time, so fuck those, 22 has a few, 23 has none, 24 has none. You can factor in those supports if you wish, but as I outlined, that makes Wendy a bit better, and the rest of the team much worse. And even if the supports are in play, they cannot always be there, even the one with Oujay, again due to Wendy's lack of movement. For above reasons, I don't see why I'd address your ridiculous comparison. Juno's potential 14-turn C support with Tate matters more often than that (no, Tate is not full since the rest of her roster sucks). You're presenting Wendy without presenting how much worse the rest of the team is now. Oh, I suppose I should add this though:
There is one Axereaver in the game, it costs about 2k and it has 15 uses. It's been around for a while, and other people want to use it too, such as Miledy before promotion.
She can finish one off after someone else hit it (Durandal or Wyrmslayer Rutger frequently leaves them alive, and there's also missing on the throned ones). Or she can be part of a rescue chain that helps Fa and her 5 mov advance faster. That's better than Wendy replacing anyone else with the Malte with more Mov can do. Both these units are taking the spots of hax units here, so unless they got some kinda misc stuff like Juno's going for them, they're simply doing something someone else could have done better. But eh, lol at them getting a spot here anyway.
Using Wendy is spending resources (EXP, weapons, money and a unit slot) and raping ranks on a unit that is terrible for a long time, and never becomes good, and does not add anything on the team but fighting. All this time, I could have used a better filler unit instead - I could use some random unit like Treck who owns her at everything and discard him later, or I could instead field someone who could at least use staves like Cecilia, and then replace them with Juno for the last four chapters (it's safe to assume neither get a spot in the Mamkute chapter, though if they are, Juno wins). So differences since last post: - Wendy promotes early. If she promotes at the end of 16, that makes her L12. If she wants to promote at 15 like you propose, that means she promotes about a chapter before Juno joins. - Wendy adds more suck to the team in the form of Bors (either Ch1-Ch7, or base level at Ch8). - Wendy adds even more suck to the team in the form of Oujay. - Wendy requires Astol on the field even when Astol has nothing to do. Juno is better than Wendy because: - using a bad unit for 16 +4 maps >>>>>> using a bad unit for 4 maps - using up EXP for 16 +4 maps >>>>> using up EXP for 4 maps - taking up a unit slot for 16 +4 maps >>>>> taking up a unit slot for 4 maps - helping funds >>>> helping EXP - sucking with 8 mov, move again, flying >>> sucking with 4-5 mov, no move again and horrible terrain penalties - misc flier utility > adding nothing to the team edit: typo edit2: reavers edit3: 14x sample fix |
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