Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs CATS

Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs CATS
C475_1337	Jun 23 2008, 01:48 PM
One serious d00d Posts: 1,863 Group: FEFFer Member #902 Joined: August 26, 2006	Quote: Neimi has pink hair. Her promoted class is Ranger. Logic dictates that Neimi is actually the Pink Power Ranger, disguised as a crybaby in FE8 as to not give away her identity. Until today, this has not been discovered. Joshua gives himself away as Prince of Jehnna after Ch14. Winner: Neimi. The Pink Power Ranger > Joshua? How old are you? 10, maybe? Nah, prolly closer to 7 or 8. Most pplz stop watching that show by the time they’re 10. If not sooner. Quote: That's not her only win though. Neimi also has much better attacking range. Joshua is locked to 1-range forever, Neimi is locked to 2-range before promotion. That alone is better. Neimi can attack enemies from eight different places around them, Joshua only from four, giving her the versatility of standing next to support partners and out of other enemy range. She can attack enemies that are 7 spaces away, while Joshua can only attack those that are 6 spaces away. And this works in a radius around them. 2-range is not better than 1-range at all. “neimi have 8 square to attack from josh only have 4 neimi r winnar” Except that Neimi doesn’t have enough move to reach all of those 8 spaces anyway. If they’re both 3 spaces away from an enemy, each has 3 available spaces to attack it from. “neimi can reach 1 tile farther away” That matters as often as units are using the full extent of their movement ranges, which is to say, very rarely. Josh counters it with higher hit or some other meaningless little thing of his own. The disadvantage, which you conveniently failed to mention, is that Neimi’s both unable to counter and is a magnet to melee enemies. She either has to be positioned and/or protected so that these enemies can’t reach her, or you suffer the consequences of those enemies getting free hits in on her. It’s hurting either her flexibility or her combat record, and both of those are hurting your efficiency. I guess it’s a small mercy that she gets to pick her poison, atleast. Joshua suffers the same thing against bow enemies, but his problem is miniscule compared to Neimi’s for two reasons: first, half the team shares it, and second, by my initial count, there’s roughly 15 times more melee enemies in the game than bow enemies. Quote: Then, the majority of enemies in this game have either 2-range or 1-2 range (there's more of those than 1-range, obviously). I don’t know why you’re posting false facts right off the bat. Again, looking at all the enemies recorded on this site, I count 389 melee, 117 1-2 range, 26 2 range, and 3 2-3 range. And I doubt that the trend violently reverses for the section of the game that isn’t recorded. The 1-2 range aren’t helping Neimi’s case anyway; both she and Joshua have blind spots that they can exploit, and both she and Joshua can be positioned to counter them. It’s slightly easier to do so for Neimi, since doing it with Josh requires placement of other units/enemies or impassable terrain, whereas Neimi only requires herself to be positioned in a certain area, but that’s an insignificant advantage considering how often you’re going to have them countering these enemies in the first place. Don’t pretend that you’re going to spend 3 or 4 turns luring 1-2 range enemies out with Neimi instead of just sending in Lute and nuking them all in 1 phase. And again, Joshua has a small counterattack in the form of the Light Brand, which gives him (yes, very limited, but still better than nothing) some possibility of obtaining 1-2 range himself. Quote: In addition, Neimi is easier to put behind a frontline of walls than Joshua is, since there's only 4 squares where she can be attacked from without countering, while there is eight for Joshua. Um, I can put Joshua behind walls just as easily as Neimi, should it be necessary. No, he won’t counter anything from back there, but it’s doubtful that the things which can reach Neimi will attack her either. “I can hide better than you!” isn’t exactly a boasting point. Quote: Colm is pretty much always in play and it's the fastest support in the game, so she gets that. I’d imagine Colm’s quite possibly not in play, myself. During the early chapters, sure, as he remains a competent fighter during that time. Once his Spd becomes overkill, though, his combat abilities become maybe mid-tier-ish, so that’s the end of any benefit for Neimi from the support. In order for her to receive the bonuses, you’d have to field Colm, when instead you could’ve fielded a stronger fighter, so that cancels any benefit Neimi might get from the bonuses. “but colm need for steal” Except that there’s barely anything worth stealing, and even when there is, fielding a better combatant for that chapter is still going to be atleast as beneficial as stealing whatever it is you’re going after. Outside of stealing things, Natasha and Moulder armed with Torch Staffs and Chest Keys fulfill the role of Thief perfectly, without wasting any combat slots. Even if Colm is fielded, at this point it would be primarily to achieve that one thief objective, so he may easily find himself separated from Neimi. Quote: Garcia is Mid, and she ties the support in speed with Seth while Ross beats her, so she is very likely getting that, especially since Neimi/Garcia is Fire/Fire. Gilliam has no trouble filling up, but since Neimi helps him on his weak point (offense and avo), it's not out of the world that he wants her. Amelia is garbage, but if she's in play, she'll take her. Yes, Garcia is Mid, so that support isn’t helping for the same that Colm isn’t. Gilliam is the same. In reality Neimi doesn’t have any net benefits from her supports at all, except Artur, who is indeed atleast hightier. Joshua, on the other hand, has a toptier unit who takes an A with him in the form of Natasha. He’s also got Artur like Neimi does, but he’s got Eir Route Gerik, aswell. So he’s quite abit better off here. Quote: They also both support Arthur, and if Arthur is given the choice, he'll take Neimi. Faster, starts a chapter earlier and better bonuses. Which brings me to affinities: Joshua is Wind, which is basically Neimi's Fire minus Avo plus Crt Avo, so it pretty much blows cock. 4/6 of his entire support list is Ice, giving them full Hit and Crt Avo, the worst two bonuses. Neimi has the second best, arguably the best affinity (at least the best offensive one). This means that when people choose between Neimi and someone else (with all other variables equal), they'll take Neimi, while if people need to choose between Joshua and someone else, they'll often take someone else. Demonstrated perfectly by Arthur, who takes Neimi's full Avo over Joshua's half. And he doesn't have room for both, because of Lute being his A. You can’t dictate who Artur takes nearly that easily. First of all, consider that Joshua and Neimi do not necessarily have to be played together, and probably aren’t going to be, in which case Artur does indeed have room for whichever one is used. Second of all, Lute won’t be Artur’s A if that’s not the optimal setup for the entire team. The player does his best to ensure that his team is fully supported, and if that means putting Lute with a combo of Ross/Kyle/Vanessa so Artur has room for both Neimi and Joshua, he’ll do it. I’d think it’s most realistic and least biased to assume that both will get B Artur in the event that they’re played. Quote: Promotion. Neimi is the only person who can use an Orion's Bolt, so she never has trouble promoting, and can promote before 20 if she so desires to get access to swords earlier, S-rank bows earlier, and generally rape enemies earlier with her promotion bonuses. Joshua shares a Hero Crest with Gerik, Marisa, Ross and Garcia. No matter how you slice it, he's worse off than Neimi here. On Eirika route, you only get one Hero Crest before Ch14, and that's also the route where Gerik happens to be good, so Joshua is bound to get in the way for promotion here. Add the possibilities of Garcia, Ross or even Marisa in play, and it becomes worse. On Ephraim route, he's better off. Garcia, Ross and Marisa won’t be used if their play creates promotion issues. Obviously it’d be better to use someone else who doesn’t. Yes, you only get 1 Crest before Ch. 14 on Eir Route, and you get a second in Ch. 14, and units generally promote around Ch. 14 or 15, so that’s not any kind of point against Joshua. Neimi’s situation is the opposite; she’s the only one with her promo item. And as a result, this actually creates problems for her, unlike Joshua. Consider that were Neimi not in play, you’d simply be selling that Bolt for 5K, whereas if Joshua weren’t in play, his Crest would likely be going to Garcia, Ross or Marisa anyway. Her promo item also requires special effort in order to obtain; it adds a new objective that requires you to change your tactics in order to achieve. In effect, it has a restricting effect on how you can play Ch. 6. Similar to the way that Neimi’s inability to counter melee may restrict your tactics, as you have the objective of covering her ass to worry about on top of all the other things you’re already trying to do (kill as many enemies as possible, position units as best as possible for supports, terrain, etc., distribute Exp as efficiently as possible, etc.). If you don’t play Neimi, on the other hand, then you don’t have to worry about this. Quote: With all of the above in mind, Neimi doesn't even have to win combat to claim a win over Joshua. Or vice versa. But, it even gets better. When they join: 5 Neimi (C Colm): 6.8 Att, 8.4 Spd—19.2 Hp, 3.6 Def, 3.4 Res, 24.8 Avo 5 Joshua: 8 Att, 14 Spd—24 Hp, 5 Def, 2 Res, 35 Avo raep Now, you might point out that this is just one chapter. And you’d be right. But what’s significant about this particular point in time is that Joshua gets a headstart on his Exp gains thanks to being initially superior in combat. He’s better on both offense and defense, and perhaps more importantly than either one, can actually generate Exp through counters on the enemy phase. He’s on the same level, so he has the same gains and priority, but with superior combat, he’ll get more kills and combat rounds in general, if played naturally. Ofcourse, it isn’t a large lead that he develops, since lower gains and priority take effect once he’s on the higher level. But it is indeed there. Quote: But for a quick glance: 20/1 Neimi - A Colm, B Garcia 20.0 atk, 18.9 AS, 65.8 hit, 33.3 crit - - 68.8 avo, 30.0 hp, 10.0 def, 13.0 res, 14.0 critavo 20/1 Joshua - A Natasha, B Arthur 17.2 atk, 19.9 AS, 69.9 hit, 36.6 crit - - 63.3 avo, 41.0 hp, 12.0 def, 8.0 res, 36.5 critavo 3 Atk vs 1 AS, 4 Hit and 3.3 Crt? Doing 6 more damage per double > all that. Neimi wins offense. Joshua wins defense on raw stats (5.5 Avo, 11 HP, 2 Def, 22.5 CEV), however, Neimi takes much much less counters. How about more than a superficial glance: From Ch. 5 through maybe 10: 5 Neimi (C Colm): 6.8 Att, 8.4 Spd—19.2 Hp, 3.6 Def, 3.4 Res, 24.8 Avo 15 Neimi (A Colm, B Artur): 14.3 Att, 14.4 Spd—24.7 Hp, 7.1 Def, 8.9 Res, 56.8 Avo Average: 10.55 Att, 11.4 Spd—21.95 Hp, 5.35 Def, 6.15 Res, 40.8 Avo 5 Joshua: 8 Att, 14 Spd—24 Hp, 5 Def, 2 Res, 35 Avo 17 Joshua (B Natasha, C Artur): 13.2 Att, 19.6 Spd—33.6 Hp, 8.4 Def, 5.4 Res, 58 Avo Average: 10.6 Att, 16.8 Spd—28.8 Hp, 6.7 Def, 3.7 Res, 46.5 Avo 2.45 Res vs 0.05 Att, 5.4 Spd, 6.85 Hp, 1.35 Def, 5.7 Avo, Superior flexibility After this point, Colm starts to taper off. I won’t bother covering the rest of the time from here til promotion; I’ll just say that it’s a significant loss for Neimi. Then after promotion: 21 Joshua (A Natasha, B Artur): 17.2 Att, 19.9 Spd—41 Hp, 12 Def, 8 Res, 63.3 Avo 32 Joshua (A Natasha, B Artur): 21.1 Att, 25.9 Spd—49.8 Hp, 14.2 Def, 10.2 Res, 78.6 Avo Average: 19.15 Att, 22.9 Spd—45.4 Hp, 13.1 Def, 9.1 Res, 70.95 Avo 17/1 Neimi (B Artur): 14.2 Att, 16.6 Spd—27.8 Hp, 9.4 Def, 11.6 Res, 55.2 Avo 17/10 Neimi (B Artur): 18.2 Att, 21.9 Spd—32.8 Hp, 10.7 Def, 14.7 Res, 70.3 Avo Average: 16.2 Att, 19.25 Spd—30.3 Hp, 10.05 Def, 13.15 Res, 62.75 Avo 4.05 Res vs 3.05 Att, 3.65 Spd, 15.1 Hp, 3.05 Def, 8.2 Avo I do give Neimi credit for still managing to average a few points higher Res, but meh.
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