Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Kratos

Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Kratos
Mekkah	Jul 2 2008, 12:06 PM
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Quote: Ninian would be better off if she had killed herself when imprisioned at the dragon's gate so Nergal wouldn't have been able to call dragons.Then she pretty much caused Elbert's death. Doesn't surprise me that Eliwood didn't want to spend even a single night at Pherae after Athos transported them, considering that bish was with them, and could kill his mum now. Also, Ninian's face looks like "Hey! I'm being forced to be a prostitute" and that gives you a horrible reputation. I mean, as the tactician, you are in charge of the "management" of the units. What would she kill herself with? Her hair? Plus, Ninian would obviously feel sorry for everyone if she killed herself...poor soul... Hey, give her a break, she's tired all game long. Quote: No, not necessarily. If both Erk and Raven/Kent can kill the enemy it doesn't matter if the latter have a couple more points in raw power, so Ninian is being just as good as Erk, but not better, combat wise. Key word: if. That is like saying: if both Lucius and Oswin can survive a horde of enemies, it doesn't matter if the latter has a couple more points in defenses, etc. Thing is, Raven and Kent DO have better offense than Erk, and by writing your paragraph you basically implied that these situations exist (I daresay there's quite a few of them - Cog of Destiny or Genesis anyone?). Focusing on the tie does not negate the win. Quote: However, Erk actually does better against stuff like Wyverns or armors, and Erk attacks enemy phase, so he potentially kills and/or damages more units than Ninian, even if she was as good at player phase. As far as combat goes, Ninian is worse or equal to Erk. And Raven and Kent do better against pretty much everything else, and both can also use effective weapons to rid of Armors. Also, Erk does not necessarily add enemy phase attacking to the team. I could already do it without him. It's not a unique trait of his. Assuming a team of 10 combat units, he just adds like 10% of that benefit. However, there is only one best unit per phase, and Ninian multiplies that "best" by two. Quote: Fortunately, Erk's class grants him the two most important abilities: attacking and healing. Erk does the best possible action nearly all the time. No, Erk hardly ever has the best possible action. His offense is worse than top tier units, and he heals less HP with a lower staff level than pretty much everyone else, including but not limited to Priscilla and Pent. He is never the best. Quote: As for other actions: Steal: by the time Ninian joins, thieves only purpose to be deployed is to steal. As they focus almost 100% on their job, they won't need any assistance. Eh? So if people focus 100% on one job, they do not need any assistance? You realize such logic implies that Erk needs more assistance than, say, Raven, since Erk does two jobs and Raven only one? Ninian allows a thief to steal and back off the same turn, or to end a player phase outside an enemy's range, to be able to steal next turn without having to crawl into range first. That's pretty cool, since if a thief were to be attacked, his counterattack would be pretty balls, and often hurt EXP rank due to being at 20/0. Quote: Seize: suppose there is a chapter with an 18 turn limit to get 5 stars in tactics. You get to seize in 15 turns but thanks to Ninian you seize in 14. Not a considerable benefit, as you already were within the required limit. Of course, you could also go an say "what if you arrive at turn 18 and thanks to Ninian you don't wait until turn 19?". Well, that is highly unlikely. As tacticians who attempt to S rank HHM, we are smart enough and know the game well enough to seize a few turns before the limit. Also, at non seize chapters, this argument is completely pointless. Of all arguments you made, this one probably makes the least sense of all. The game doesn't merely check whether you made the limit or not and leave it at that, it counts the turns. Quite often, there is no way you make the limit, and you are in the negative. The numerous 0 turn limit chapters, for example: 11, 15, 19xx, 25, 30 and 32x. That's quite a lot to make up for. You are in the negative and any turn saved is a boon to the tactics rank. For non-seize chapters, it's not like the chapter doesn't have a goal. The goal is simply "kill enemy" or "kill boss", and it's not like Ninian does not help you achieve those more quickly either. Just because it's not Hector seizing does not make Ninian's contribution null all of a sudden. If Ninian dancing allows you to kill Linus one turn earlier, then that has the same effect as allowing Hector to seize one turn earlier. Quote: Then stuff like rescue and talk are moar unlikely. The main reason rescue is considered suck is because the unit that gets dumped cannot move, so it costs turns. Ninian allows them to move again, so if someone just got carried by an 8 mov Paladin and Ninian dances for them, wham massive movement increase. Talk doesn't happen often, but it happens, and Ninian can be a good help with for example recruiting Harken before he brandishes his Brave Sword on you. Quote: Dancing is not only not the only way to increase mobility but also not the more efficient. Combat is. This game is mainly about combat, there is combat in your turn, and even more combat than that during the enemy phase, as they get to move more units and always play all offensive. So, Ninian can go and dance for someone and call it a day. Erk stays there and receives attacks and kills, and since there are less enemies by the time it's your turn, the group as a whole increases it's mobility. Imagine if Ninian was the one who got attacked. The enemies would be alive and some of your units would have to slow down during your turn instead of further advancing. Good thing that there is simply no need, no incentive for Ninian ever to get attacked. And yes, there is combat, which is important, but it hardly helps Erk, since without him I could still do combat perfectly fine. Adding Erk merely adds another combat unit, adding Ninian adds the best possible player phase action. I could do the former with a lot of units, and it doesn't add much if any at all to begin with, but the latter obviously always results in a significant improvement. What you stated has little to do with what you quoted anyway: It should also be noted that Ninian increases people's mobility, something that Erk cannot simulate at all. She can dance for people who have been dropped after rescuing, or simply dance after they already moved and did something. She can make Hector seize a turn earlier, making the chapter a turn shorter. Basically, Ninian has potential to give normal people up to 6 mov extra, so 12 mov total. That's pretty damn amazing. Quote: Attacking also adds exp rank. Everyone helps exp rank. But Ninian getting "unique" experience doesn't mean it adds more experience. Yes, Ninian does add more experience. I even outlined it in the very piece you quoted: EXP you would not have gotten otherwise. Anything Erk kills on whatever phase can be killed by about anyone, and I would have gotten the EXP. Anytime Erk heals someone, I could have done it with another healer, and I would have gotten the EXP (this one does not apply always such as with combat, but very often it does). However, even if Ninian's dance does nothing at all for any other aspect of the team, it adds 10 EXP, and no one else could have gotten me that piece of EXP. Quote: Fila's Might is not that h4x. Matthew doesn't rly attack very much, and besides, if you need more powah, you can just attack->dance->attack and the combat unit gets more experience than if he had killed in just one round. Matt was merely an example that showed that a unit that has relatively few Atk can become an attacking monster if needbe. Adding more Atk is adding more offense. Saying attack->dance->attack is better downplays the value of Fila's Might, but it makes the normal dancing better, so it doesn't take away from Ninian's value overall. What you conveniently don't mention is that adding more Atk means less rounds of combat and therefore less counterattacks (so it adds defense too), and it uses up less weapon uses (so you get more out of your expensive/rare weaponry). It may seem little to you, but all of it is stuff that Erk has nothing to say against. Quote: Then Thor's Ire. +10 Crt is lol. attack->dance->attack is more reliable. And most bosses are pansies, anyway. What's Erk's answer to it? Having 5 Crt with Thunder? Most people have more Crt with Killer anyway, so Ninian is adding more Crt to the team than he is. Thor's Ire gives Guy the possibility of 100% Crt (he caps at 90 with supports, S swords, Killer, 30 Skl and Swordmaster class), and it's also about 19% extra crit for a double. Again, you may say "it matters little", but Erk has nothing to counter it with, so it just piles on Ninian's advantages. Quote: OK? Thanks to Matthew, we don't really care about the funds rank. If we didn't care at all, we wouldn't have Dart and Farina at the bottom of tier lists, we wouldn't be bitching as much about Lyn and Eliwood's Heaven Seals, and we would just be assuming higher end weapons all the time rather than most of the time. The truth is, funds became easy, but not a guarantee five star category such as Combat. Ninian adding a good 30k to that overall cannot be shrugged off as "lol funds is easy". You also forget that funds is interchangable: the more funds you have leftover, the more you can trade in for better weapons to better tactics, or for better staves to better durability and EXP, or for an Earth Seal so that we can use four Knight Cresters. Every bit you have leftover can be used to your advantage in another area, and Ninian gives you quite a chunk of it. Quote: Archers also not need to be in the frontline. They can easily be behind your combat units so the only way they can get attacked is from a distance. They have a chance to counter. Ninian doesn't. Both an archer and Ninian force you to put extra work in your formation but the archer has more move so is more flexible itself, for whatever that's worth, even tough Ninian's dance is better for positioning purpose, BUT, if Ninian is being used a given turn just to reposition a unit so Ninian herself doesn't get attacked, then she was pretty useless that turn. Archers need to go near enemies to do what they need to: attack. Enemies are seldomly on their own, so the use of an archer during a turn basically implies that you will need people surrounding them in order to not lose effiency. Ninian can dance or ring PCs from a lot more spaces, since PCs are at your disposal, while enemies are AI-controled. Archers have more mov? Rath does, but Rebecca and Wil only have more once they have promoted. But it's completely nill compared to the flexibility advantage for Ninian I just gave. Uh, Ninian's dances add flexibility to your frontline for more good than her own. There will rarely if ever be a case where her dance is just there to protect herself, and if there is, it's still a net positive for her overall since she still added to EXP rank and gave someone an extra action (that could have been killing the last enemy with Ninian in range). Quote: wait, what? your last point said Ninian isn't at the frontline while now you say there is no incentive at all to leave Ninian behind the others. Contradiction too much? Don't be silly, "behind" in this context is behind to the point where she has nobody to dance for, not that she isn't out of enemy range. A mere two squares behind your frontlines achieves that perfectly. Quote: Anyway, if Ninian does what you said with Raven, then there's not much use for a unit going solo and leaving support partners, unless there's an enemy or something. At any rate, when that happens then Raven leaves behind the rest of the team, which doesn't seem like a fantastic idea to me. And if there is an enemy, then it is a good idea. There will be occasions where you want someone to leave the group for a little while, perhaps to kill that thief raiding your chest room in PFoD or BBD. If such a thing can be achieved without Raven being in support range with other people near them, then Ninian gives you the choice to do so, while Erk does not. Quote: And yes, she moves at the same rate as ppl like Hector and Osw1n, but since they are so near each other, she can dance for them and eventually she gets left behind. Only if people use their full move all the time and leave Ninian behind on purpose, but as I said, the benefit of Ninian dancing is so great that it's better to stay near Ninian for it. It more than cancels out LOL USIN ALL MA MOVE. She can also dance for people in small support triangles/chains so that they can advance faster, then keep assisting a slower group after that. Quote: If Ninian increases the team's mobility as much as you say, she's bound to get left behind at some point. If she doesn't get left behind, then the team's mobility didn't get increased by such a great amount. Mobility is more than advancing forward, ya know. A very valuable mobility increase can also be standing next to support partners, or onto terrain, or right next to a boss so that he attacks next turn, or protecting your less defensive units better, etc. You can get maximum benefit out of Ninian without leaving her behind. Or even if you do leave her behind, she only needs one turn to catch up, since you're bound to run into enemies somewhere. Also, if Ninian's mov is really a problem, you can give her the Boots. "zomg stat boosts 1!! FUNDS!!" Ninian is still cheaper than Erk even if she uses two or three stat boosters - the Guiding Ring alone is worth one and then some. "zomg stat boosts 2!! ERK BOOTS TOO" Yes, I suppose if Ninian gets a stat booster, then Erk should get one too to be fair, since it's a limited resource after all. However, Boots improve Ninian more than any stat booster improves Erk, so giving both a stat booster of your choice, so instead of Ninian > Erk, it becomes Ninian >>> Erk now. This is because while giving Erk the Boots increases only his mobility by two, an increase in Ninian's mobility means an increase in everyone's mobility. Quote: 1.-Joining time: Erk joins more than 7 chapters earlier and is one of your most valuale units. He joins with good stats thanks to Lyn's crappy mode, he is the only one that targets RES until Lucius joins (and even then, Erk is still better), has 1-2 range, which is pretty amazing since Javelins and stuff suck and ppl who use them aren't h4x enough, and he becomes a healer (possibly the best until Pent joins) before Ninian even joins. His joing time advantage is countered by the fact that Erk is using up EXP (and therefore levels and stats) that others could have gotten, even in Lyn Mode. Had I not used Erk, everyone else would have been stronger. And he's also using tomes before the Silver Card even exists. Best healer? Even if that mattered, he isn't. Both Priscilla and Serra are better units than Erk, and unless you give Erk beneficial treatment while denying them the same (for example, giving him a Guiding Ring earlier), then he's not surpassing them in any aspect really. He can use higher end tomes, but Serra and Priscilla can use much higher level staves, which add extra utility value and all. And then indeed Pent comes and makes him more obsolete, etc. Quote: and later disapoofs during the chapter with Denning. Who cares, it's one chapter where all that matters is getting treasure and keeping enemies from killing you or getting the throne. The only thing you need to do to maximize your tactics benefit for that chapter is kill Denning before the chapter is over. Erk's contribution to this chapter is extremely minimal, considering you can field a ton of units, and they can all do pretty much the same thing. Quote: 2.-Supports: ppl love Erk. Units like Priscilla and Serra would love to support him and later Pent also is a good option. Priscilla and Serra both have a million other good units to support. Guy, Oswin, Raven and Sain all want a Priscilla support if they can have it, and all four of these have trouble getting full supports if Erk snags the space away. Lucius wants a Priscilla support as well if Serra isn't in play/is full. You might bring up that Erk gives Priscilla better bonuses or something (which hardly matters, because Priscilla isn't entering the fray at all before she promotes, and afterwards she'll still be healing), but the difference between Erk/Priscilla bonuses and other unit/Priscilla bonuses is much smaller than the difference between these other units not getting supports and them getting a Priscilla support. Serra is same story, except Erk is literally her second slowest option ever. In this case, he's nowhere near her best support. Sain and Lucius both really want Serra, and they're the two fastest. Hector and Oswin don't really care to get the bonuses Serra gives them, but Serra does want their Def/Avo bonuses, and they are slightly faster than Erk, so again, she'll take them. I won't bother to argue for Matt or Florina. For Pent, that only helps really late, and Canas (who has a decent shot at being in play, being lower High/upper Mid) wants to support him as well, so again it's not merely gain for Pent, since he would still often have a support were Erk not there. Quote: On the other hand, Ninian has Eliwood, who is getting A Hector almost always and can support someone like Lowen and Marcus for equal or better bonuses that are active earlier and that don't disappear during the last chapters of the game. Then Hawkeye is not very good and Wind-Ice is lol. Florina is ok, I suppose, but it is a hard to build support as she's a flier and fliers don't stay behind for the only purpose of supporting. Ninian doesn't really care for supports since she doesn't fight. If you were arguing for someone like Lucius, who is giving Raven bonuses he otherwise wouldn't have, this point might matter, but Erk isn't helping his partners getting supports or bonuses, merely replacing others. So: Ninian - best player phase offense or best player phase misc action - mobility increase (huge normally, very huge if Ninian gets Boots, and makes Rescue a very viable strategy) - always adding to EXP rank - personal rings - costs absolutely nothing (which allows other units to cost a lot more) vs Erk - earlygame help - attacks on enemy phase Everything Erk does can be replaced by someone else, and since Erk is not the best unit, that means I could have been better off. Ninian's positives are all unique to her.


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