Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Kratos

Viewing Single Post From: Mekkah vs Kratos
Mekkah	Jul 10 2008, 05:05 PM
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Quote: Yeah, hair sounds good. Or she could've stopped drinking water, or something. And I bet she feels awful now. She went against the rules and opened the gate. Because of her irresponsible actions, Eliwood and co eventually ended up in Bern and protected Zephiel. If Zephiel had died that day Bern wouldn't have caused a massive war and killed Hector years later. What, you think Ninian cannot survive without water? Silly. It wasn't because of Ninian that they ended up protecting Zephiel. They were going there to begin with, because Desmond was acting all tough. Quote: The difference isn't nearly as big as your Lucius-Oswin example. Well, at least you admit the difference is there, that's all I wanted to get across. Quote: There also exist many situations where Erk has better offense like, all early game Erk is stronger due to enemies having low RES and easily wins against armors (chapter in Caelin castle, anyone?). Then later on he still wins against armors but now wyverns are common. Where are Kent and Raven winning? Promoted magic users? Far less common. Against stuff like pirates and cavaliers and archers and stuff all of our units kill easily. In such situations, there's still people with better offense, it's just not Erk but, say, Wolf Beil Hector. Interestingly, the Caelin chapter has no relevance for this argument, because this is about Ninian providing the best performance on player phase vs Erk not doing so. When Ninian is there, Erk doesn't really beat Raven and Kent at anything in offense. 23 Erk has 14.4 Mag, gets 15.4 if Priscilla is with him 21 Raven has 16.2 Pow, gets 17.2 or 18.2 depending on if one, two or none of Pris/Lucius/Rebecca are with him 22 Kent has 14.6 Pow, can get up to 19.6 with supports So let's say you are with your supporters about half the time (therefore halving the bonuses): Erk - 14.9, 20.9 Atk with Thunder Raven - 17.2, 25.2 Atk with Iron Axe, 26.2 with Killing Edge Kent - 17.1, 25.1 Atk with Iron Axe, 27.1 with Killer Lance That easily bridges the Def/Res gap if it's there, and then some. The biggest is Wyverns (9), and both Raven and Kent have 26.2 Atk against those (thanks to WTA), and will later be able to use Killer to bridge the gap even more. Next up is Armors (8), which Erk wins against minimally, but Armorslayers >>> that. Against something like a Cavalier (5), they are about even with Iron, and with Slayer or Killer Raven and Kent beat out easily. So no, Erk isn't winning offense against these. Now, you may bring up that they both kill generics anyways, and that we should only be looking against threatening enemies, such as promoted ones. That doesn't help Erk's case. The Def/Res gap becomes maybe 2-3 bigger, but Raven has 15% more Str growth (Kent's is equal), and they will pick up Silver if needbe, as well as Killer Axes once their axe level has been built, and you get to buy all Slayer weapons in the FFO Secret Shop. Bosses make it even worse, because those don't really have a Def/Res gap for Erk to capitalize on at all, and some even have more Res than Def. Bosses with Def/Res gaps (+ is more Def, - is more Res) Eubans: -2 Paul: +2 Jasmine: -3 Linus: +2 Lloyd: -7 Kenneth: -12 Jerme: -4 etc etc Quote: Erk not needing effective weapons is an advantage. Not everyone can have them at the same time. You would require to trade weapons while Erk can simply melt the fat armors. They're buyable in FFO, and they don't all need them all the time, only when they're fighting Armors. And Ninian can also make Lucius or Canas move again, or make trading such a weapon easier. So no, Armors don't help Erk's case at all. Quote: And who cares if attacking enemy phase isn't unique? That's like saying "I use only one unit of each class because more than that wouldn't be unique". Erk may add only like 10% of that benefit, while Ninian is at like -10% (can get attacked but can't attack). I don't mean unique as "Sol Katti makes the boobs bounce"-unique and you know it. Erk isn't adding anything of it because I could have countered on enemy phase without him. Ninian isn't getting attacked, so she's doing 0%. I would still counter on enemy phase when using Erk. Quote: Then best unit per phase isn't as unique. Imagine a situation where you have 3 units (one of them Ninian) and 3 enemies. The 3 enemies get killed. Now, replace Ninian with Erk, the 3 enemies still get killed but you have 3 attackers during the enemy phase instead of 2. Erk is easily winning here, and this is the situation that happens more often in the game, considering that there are shitloads of enemies. Uh, there is not a single situation in the game where you're stuck using three units, so I don't know why I would try to imagine an unrealistic situation like that. Nonetheless, all three got killed either way, so there's no difference here at all (if there's one you didn't illustrate it properly at all - I guess you are going to do so in your last post, but it's kinda lame waiting it out like that). If anything Ninian wins in this situation, because one of the attackers gets to advance further on player phase. Quote: numbers The difference is 5 attack, which is equivalent to the Def-Res gap most of the time, And, his enemy phase offense exists more and is better so I'd call Erk's offense top tier. Also, note that when, for example, Raven moves before Pris and Lucius, he is losing 2 atack, when Kent isn't in range of Lyn or Sain, he loses 2 Atk per partner, and can have worse offense than Erk, while Erk, on the other hand, doesn't lose a vital amount of power when away from Priscilla. Next is a comparison with...Erk with a 4 level lead for some reason. I gave him 1-2 levels, that's plenty. Kent and Erk start on about the same level (Erk joins earlier in HHM, but Kent earlier in LM, and overtime to promotion any gap one has will be closed by the other). When Kent promotes, Erk didn't suddendly build up a 4-level lead with staves. I'll point you to the comparison done above instead. For them losing supports when they move away, I took that into account in the comparison as well by giving situations with and without supports in range equal weight, and they're still winning offense by a huge amount. Quote: And then staves, depending the time of Erk's promotion, he has 11-13 MAG. There are hardly situations at midgame where you need to heal more than 21-23 HP. Same for lategame, but Erk heals moar now. Priscilla, at the same level as Erk, heals like 1-2 more hp, which doesn't make her superior at all, and I'd question them being at the same level considering Erk has a level lead and grows faster before promotion. And Pent only heals like 3-4 more when he joins. Not clearly superior at all. And finally, Serra has less MAG than Erk. You forget that the others can use Mend (which makes up for 10 mag when healing), while Erk cannot do so until mid-endgameish, and by then the others also have Recover to resort to if needed as well as other staff utility value. In addition, if I healed once with, say, Priscilla, and I have a choice of making her heal again or letting Erk heal, I'll take Priscilla, since she gets more EXP out of it when unpromoted with the same staff, or still more if she's promoted by using Mend. So using Ninian to let people heal again > using Erk to heal. More EXP and healing more HP ftw. Interestingly, Bishop Lucius has the same higher level staff advantage (as well as much more Mag), and Canas just has more Mag. Quote: When it is a job as simple as thieving you do not need assistance. The thief is easily covered without assistance. For example, a room with chests. The thief goes inside and takes his time getting the treasure. Dancing for him is completely worthless as you don't need it battling or something. When it is about stealing from enemies, well, they are the ones who approach you so you easily steal and then kill with other units. Sometimes your thief isn't done picking while everyone else is ready for the seize/boskill, so Ninian dancing helps then. Sometimes there's combat units or other thieves out there (and enemy thieves often have nice lockpicks to steal), so Ninian helps that as well. Enemies don't always rush, some stand still until you're in their range, and unless you're Rebecca (or heh Ninian), you might kill them on the counter. Or if you disarm or let them use weaker weapons, they're worse against every other enemy in range. Plus, your method leaves the thief exposed more often than mine. Quote: Ninian is not going to not get attacked just because you wish it. Wyverns can fly around to her, mounted units can also move around, mages/archers/other 1-2 range ppl can attack her if she's not that far behind. And once again, if something is h4x, the more the better. Combat, in this case. Imagine how slow the game would be if you just had a single unit because more "would add nothing new". Ninian adds the best possible player phase action, yes, but in exchange, she also is the worst possible unit enemy phase, which is also something pretty unique, I guess =P Enemies can only reach Ninian if you let them. You can see enemy movement ranges and positions, and you can adjust yours more than usual thanks to Ninian herself. You're looking at it the wrong way. If you only had one unit, the second unit would be doubling your combat power. Adding another adds 33%, then another adds 25%, etc. Those are all reasonable. At this point, we are considering adding Erk or Ninian, and assuming a 12-man team total (where Erk/Ninian is the 12th unit), so he adds like 8% compared to Ninian. Not even that, since Ninian adds more combat as well, plus you will be using fillers (either unpromoted for EXP rank or promoted simply for having more). Ninian is only the worst possible unit on enemy phase if she got attacked every single time and didn't have any durability. Fortunately, she never needs to be in enemy range, and even if she ever is, her 10/0 Avo alone is 53.8 - more than the 50.54 Avo Erk has at 20/1, giving him half of his support bonuses (this is to acount for the time they're not near him, though I also doubt he has A Priscilla and B Serra already). And then 220% Avo growth over Erk's 130%. Quote: It is relevant. Both of us are talking about mobility, but Erk's approach is different. Ninian makes one unit move 12 spaces or w/e. Erk kills enemies enemy phase, and that helps mobility. Imagine this situation. There's a group of enemies ahead; 3 shamans make it into Erk's range and commit suicide. Everyone happily moves in your turn. Now, imagine the 3 shamans attack Ninian, or someone who doesn't add the enemy phase offense Erk adds, like, for example, killing edge Guy and live. 3 units then attack during your turn and Ninian dances for one. Remaining units advance. Everyone but 2 units (3 if we count Ninian) fully advanced. 12 units advancing>>9-10 units advancing. Erk's offense is fantastic when it comes to mobility, more so than Ninian's dance, because it helps the team as a whole, and not just a single unit. For that to happen, said Shamans would have to be attacking Erk to begin with, which means either he is the only one in range (so others had to position themselves out of enemy range, which is gheyer than what Ninian needs to do, since others actually want to advance, especially Hector, plus it's more of them) or others have 1-2 range equipped (in which case the enemies are not likely to go for Erk anyway - especially not if they're Shamans). So it only helps mobility if you hurt other people's. Around the time Ninian joins, people have pretty decent offense with Hand Axe/Javelin if needed, so Erk is hardly anything of this at all - I would just have it without him. Ninian isn't simply helping one unit either: the effects that one unit has on advancing more spread out to other people being able to advance more, for example by killing an extra enemy, or positioning another unit so that he kills more enemies, or blocks a reinforcement spot. Quote: Yeah, bad wording here. I meant "more experience than Erk". So, while Ninian's contribution is unique, it doesn't mean it adds more than other units. For example, Erk kills 3 units in two full turns. That's some 70 exp. Ninian would have to dance 7 turns to get the same as Erk. So yeah, Ninian has unique exp, but in lesser quantity, so her contribution is actually smaller, as the exp rank doesn't care how you got the experience. And then, Ninian only has like 13 levels to grow, if she's level 7 from Lyn's crap story. Erk has those 13 and then other 20 thanks to promotion, so his contribution gets even bigger. Once again, you totally miss the point. Erk didn't create that EXP out of thin air. I would have gotten it anyways without Erk on my team, it's just that someone else like Lowen or Raven would have taken it instead. That's not adding anything to the EXP rank at all (in fact, since Erk is slightly overleveled, it's more likely that he actually hurt the EXP rank there). Ninian's EXP, however, cannot come from anywhere else. She dances, gains 10 EXP, and no one else could have gotten that. Key word: "if". I might not want to get 19xx - that depends on whether I want to spend time Lundgrenabusing and killing Kishuna, to get the spoils from 19xx, trading tactics for funds and EXP. If she doesn't, she has more like 17. And no, again, Erk is not contributing EXP to the team at all. With your logic, Lowen is better for EXP rank than Nino, because Lowen has 18 levels prepromotion and 20 after, while Nino has 15 levels pre and 20 after. However, Lowen isn't gaining more than anyone else when he fights, but a normal amount, while Nino gains tons more, so she's adding EXP to the team (if a normal unit like Lowen would have gotten 5 from an enemy, and Nino gets 50, Nino added 45). Ninian doesn't kill enemies to gain EXP though, so she simply has a net benefit of 10 per turn (and 1300 or 1700 overall), while Erk's is pretty much 0. Quote: It only adds defense when you OHKO thanks to it, which may not be the case that often (especially if you use it on bosses). Then, weapon uses don't rly matter unless it's an expensive weapon. I wouldn't mind losing like 10 gold from using an extra use of my iron axe. However, an extra round of combat means some 10 exp to my combat unit, which is better cause combat units need the level ups and the extra stats, unlike Ninian, and the exp. rank is harder than funds, anyway. Bosses aren't always at full HP, but it will happen that they need an extra 1-10 damage to die to another smack, and Ninian can give them that. It's not just about gold, more about using shit like Mani Katti and Brave weapons that you have a limited amount of which you get more out of when you use Fila's Might/Thor's Ire on it. But hey, if normal dancing is a better option, Ninian adds that to the team as well, so it doesn't matter. Still an advantage for her, just on a different field. Quote: Having 5 stars with nex to to no effort =/= being free to give bad use to all the funds. That's why Dart and Farina are rated low. You can easily achieve the 5 stars rank and use fancy weapons and stuff without Ninian. Zero requeriment chapters ftw Both Dart and Farina have amazing potential, and they're pretty much only held back by the cash. Dart is just a great offensive unit that gives Geitz an extra support option, Farina's underleveled, but then again she also helps the gay EXP rank and adds flying, so she would at least be in Upper Mid if she didn't have cost. Adding Ninian to da team instead of Erk gives you a lot more money, and that automatically fixes these units fatal flaw. Making other units hop tiers = win. And as I said, funds is interchangable. There's no reward for ending funds with 10k overkill, so spend it on stuff. Ninian adds another 30k or so. You cannot pretend your funding is infinite in this game, so Ninian will always allow you to use more expensive stuff more often, which improves combat performance, and therefore your tactics rank. Zero requirement chapters _hurt_ your tactics rank by every single turn you spend in it. And those don't make you auto-S funds or whatever. Above still applies. Plus, some are gaidens, and if Ninian's extra funds means I don't have to go to zero requirement chapters, then that's cool, because not only did I just add funds, but I also saved out on tactics. Quote: Archers are in the exact same situation as Ninian, except they approach the enemies moar, but it doesn't matter if at the end both Ninian and the archers get covered. In fact, if you surround your archer and gets attacked from a distance it is being helpful. On the other hand you could say you keep Ninian behind to avoid attacks, but even if she doesn't get attacked, she's still completely useless. Archers aren't gonna be attacked from a distance when they're surrounded unless everyone else has 2-range equipped. Neither Ninian nor Archers are gonna be attacked like that, and if you don't get attacked, it doesn't matter who you are. This means having a unit like Erk out of enemy range is totally useless - he might as well be Renault or Karla. These situations happen, and on such turns, Ninian is raping Erk in usefulness due to winning huge on player phase and then winning by a bit on enemy phase (other units are now positioned better on enemy phase). Quote: If we are talking about Oswin and Hector yes, they want to use their full move to own the frontline with their h4x stats. They do indeed stay behind a single turn to benefit from Ninian's dance and arrive at the frontline, but after that they are pretty much on their own until you get slowed down. People are going to run into terrain and enemies too often to advance fully every single turn, so Ninian can easily keep up with them. Not that Ninian can't perfectly keep up with unpromoted Oswin anyway. Quote: She's not the only one who wants the boots, tough. Good thing I addressed this right under the passage you quoted. Yes, I suppose if Ninian gets a stat booster, then Erk should get one too to be fair, since it's a limited resource after all. However, Boots improve Ninian more than any stat booster improves Erk, so giving both a stat booster of your choice, so instead of Ninian > Erk, it becomes Ninian >>> Erk now. This is because while giving Erk the Boots increases only his mobility by two, an increase in Ninian's mobility means an increase in everyone's mobility. What goes for Erk goes for others: Ninian improves team mobility by more when she gets the Boots than anyone else improves team mobility. In arbitrary values to illustrate: other people add +2, Ninian adds more like +6. Net win: +4. Quote: The "lol using exp" argument is silly. First, let's suppose I used Erk in an 11 units team and at a given point we see he got 10 levels Now, imagine the team without him, you have 10 units but in average they are just one level higher, meaning, one more point in 2-3 stats. Incredibly small stat advantage<<<<1 more unit. Second, if your team is smaller eventually your units will start hogging experience because they'll level up a bit faster. The more units, the merrier. Small stat advantages can save your ass in bottlenecks pretty often. It frequently happens that your 11th unit doesn't take an action on any phase at all, so in those cases I'd much rather want 10 stronger units. Lol, "hogging EXP". You get like 3 EXP per kill less if you're one level higher (at for example, 15/0 compared to 16/0), weakening is the same. Plus, something I forgot to mention, Erk is taking up a unit slot. Those are pretty limited early on. You can hardly field your whole team at all, and you also want to blend in fillers for the EXP rank. Hey, I am using Erk, but I could be fielding Kent instead. Take like Port of Badon. I need Hector, I need Florina to visit the houses and talk to Fargus, I need a fast swordie like Guy, then I'd like Oswin as well to block the Paladin boss and 2HKO him with Horseslayer, and Raven to gain EXP from pirates, and one or two healers...one can hardly fit Erk in there at all. Quote: Then, using stuff before silver card? yeah, lol at that. Everyone does that. oh noes! everyone sucks! Let's have them fight with their fists!. And also, he uses like 2 tomes before silver card so it doesn't rly matter. It doesn't mean everyone sux, it's just a point against them that widens the funds gap more. Quote: At the healer part, at midgame you aren't using higher level staves, so using higher level tomes is better. Plus Erk level ups faster than Prissy and Serra, so he'll likely be promoting first. Um yes, you'll want to use Mend for more EXP plus healing fully, and Unlock to save Matthew some work, and Torch in Fog of War for extra vision and Barrier because most people are pretty bad at handling Mages, plus all of those give pretty much free EXP. What higher end tomes is Erk using? You don't get to buy Elfire until Ch26, and that tome isn't nearly as awesome as higher end staves anyways. No, Erk doesn't level up faster at all. He gains about as much from killing one enemy as Pris/Serra get from healing one person (assuming Erk has a six level lead on his enemies, which is pretty accurate on average...he'll prolly outlevel them by even more later). However, Erk isn't always killing, in which case he gets less, and sometimes he is not taking an action at all while Serra/Pris pretty much always find someone to heal. And Erk is taking EXP from other people, too. Quote: meh, minimal contribution>>>no contribution Might as well not be a contribution. Might even be a negative since everytime he takes a kill, someone with a lower level could have taken it instead. Quote: And Ninian's existance already is small. She's there for 14 chapters (counting final as 2 chapters) and she doesn't exist half of that time (enemy phase). That's a very big problem. Erk is there for 28 chapters and exists both phases, plus, early on he is a unique unit just like Ninian and offers fantastic help all the time. Huh? Erk does nothing unique at all. He just fights in other people's stead, and he's hardly better at it. Ninian may not be there for as many chapters, but when she's there, she's clearly above everyone else except your best unit. Being the best when you're there > not being the best when you're there, even if the former is half as big. Quote: I honestly don't see Oswin unsupported. He can easilly get B Hector and then support Dorcas or Matthew. And he has Serra as well. He doesn't care if Priscilla doesn't want him. He doesn't want Hector at all, since all they do is make each other invincible, but they were already invincible. What Oswin wants is offense, which Prissy gives. Plus, Hector is restricted to running to the throne every time, while Oswin might want to do other things, such as staying near Merlinus. He's not fit for the throne rushing job Hector has anyway due to his 4 mov. Then, Hector is sucking for a long time at 20/0, at which point he hardly has to seize anymore (midgame is practically all "kill enemy/boss" or something like "seize 3 forts" in Crazed Beast), so that Hector hardly has any business near the fray to begin with other than support the unfortunate people who picked him for a partner. Dorcas is a Mid tier and not likely to be in play at all considering his inability to double snails. If he's in play, Oswin will take him, but that still leaves him begging for a B, since Matthew is always off scouring for chests, and if there's no chests, he isn't likely to be fielded, partly due to not being very good at fighting, partly because he's likely to be 20/0 already. Quote: Sain gets A Kent and gets moar benefit from units like Rebecca, Serra and Isadora. Sain may want to get Serra, but Serra herself has a million units she might want to support, plus the support doesn't give anything whole except Crt and Crt Eva, while Priscilla gives him full Hit (which he wants because of Skl issues early on), full Atk (which he wants because he likes to hurt things a lot) and full Crt (again yay). Rebecca's a sniper, and snipers are pretty ghey (if you're not going to exist on enemy phase, you better do something outstanding on player phase like Ninian), and Isadora is pretty bad (lame Atk, unable to boost it without hurting AS and Avo). Quote: Raven can get A Lucius B Pris, or B Rebecca if you want Pris to be with Guy. Again, Rebecca is likely not in play. And if Priscilla has even one other partner besides Guy/Raven, Erk is taking a spot someone else could have gotten, which proves my point. Quote: And then Pent, since the Erk support is faster and Erk is in play more often, is valid. At least is more than whatever Ninian can offer is regards to supports. Erk is assumed to be in play since he's being debated. However, Canas isn't unlikely to be in play either, again because he's lower high/upper mid (misc utility with staves and Luna/Nosferatu plus helping EXP rank are pretty cool). Quote: One thing is clear, tough, Erk is Priscilla's fastest support and with gr8 bonuses They only help Erk pretty much, since Priscilla would get supports anyway, and by the time she's using them (promoting), she's pretty much done supporting whoever. And we already factored their effects on Erk in his battle stats, so him supporting other people does nothing else. Quote: The world doesn't revolve around Ninian, tough. She may not care about supports, but the rest of the team does. Erk supports ppl and make them better (and this adds both offense and defense) and does it since earlier. Ninian has absolutely no answer to this. Erk's not making people better - both Serra and Priscilla have a full roster regardless of whether Erk supports them or not. It's slightly faster in Priscilla's case (and slower than most in Serra's), but since they're healers, they don't care at all, since they don't fight. Plus, Erk runs the risk of taking someone else's support spot, and then he's making other people _worse_. For Pent, he sometimes takes a Canas spot, and at other times he helps Pent...but Pent doesn't really need any help whatsoever anyway. Quote: So yeah, Erk vs Ninian can be resumed as: Ninian - best player phase offense or best player phase misc action - mobility increase (huge normally, very huge if Ninian gets Boots, and makes Rescue a very viable strategy) - always adding to EXP rank - personal rings - costs absolutely nothing (which allows other units to cost a lot more) vs Erk - earlygame help - attacks on enemy phase Quote: Sorry if I took too long to reply. It's ok, you've got four weeks now before I return from France and read it. 8)


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