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| Bean vs. Merk | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 7 2006, 10:37 AM (234 Views) | |
| +Harmato | Aug 7 2006, 10:37 AM Post #1 |
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lawl tank on tank (Double entendre meant, of course B)). Rules are awesome so you should read them. >[ 3 posts per debate. Bean goes first.  |
 Av and Sig were definitely not made by Pendant or fez. | |
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| Bean | Aug 7 2006, 03:18 PM Post #2 |
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Bean
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Let's start with some 20/20 averages. Oswin HP: 58.8 STR: 26.6 SKL: 20.0 SPD: 17.0 DEF: 29.5 RES: 15.0 LUK: 13.5 CON: 16 MOV: 5 Lowen HP: 58.2 STR: 19.1 SKL: 17.1 SPD: 19.0 DEF: 23.1 RES: 12.1 LUK: 21.5 CON: 12 MOV: 8 From these, we can tell both characters make good walls with their great HP, DEF, and good RES, Oswin averaging more DEF and slightly more HP and RES. Both have high CON, so they can wield many different weapons without losing AS (though Oswin can hold a few more). Neither have great SPD, though both can still double attack enemies. They will only be double attacked by weaker enemies like swordmasters and assassins. Neither have great SKL, but Oswin's 20 SKL will be enough to attack most enemies. Lowen may have some trouble with only 17. His higher LUK helps him a bit in that area, though. Lowen's LUK also helps him dodge better than Oswin, but with Oswin's 29.5 DEF, he won't need that too much. However, Oswin has a lot more STR and can deal better damage than Lowen. Lowen's 19.1 STR is one of the lowest in the game. In late HHM he won't be dealing a lot of damage to enemies. Lowen does beat Oswin in MOV and AID. Being mounted, he has more range and can rescue a lot of units. Oswin's 15 AID actully lets him rescue more units, because Lowen only has 13. And being the tank he is, he'll be able to carry the unit out of harm's way without too much damage While Lowen can go out further, Oswin won't be too far behind most of your units, with only 1 less MOV. Really, Lowen only has several things to top Oswin: -More MOV -More evade (which Oswin doesn't need) -Weapon control (while Oswin can manipulate the triangle) -Can double a few more enemies Let's not stick with mere 20/20 averages. Let's go to bases. Oswin Level 9 Knight HP: 28 STR: 13 SKL: 9 SPD: 5 DEF: 13 RES: 3 LUK: 3 CON: 14 MOV: 4 Lowen Level 2 Cavalier HP: 23 STR: 7 SKL: 5 SPD: 7 DEF: 7 RES: 0 LUK: 3 CON: 10 MOV: 7 In Eliwood Mode, Lowen comes on the first chapter. In Hector Mode, they come on the same one. Oswin starts off strong, averaging even more DEF than Marcus. He has high STR, so he can kill enemies easily. He won't double attack, but he won't get doubled except by weak Myrmidons. Perhaps this is a good thing. If he doesn't double, he won't kill, leaving room for ther units to do it and gain EXP. He won't have trouble with heavier weapons and may have a little trouble hitting axe users, though they suck at dodging. He's very useful in the beginning. He'll do good on ranked games with his sheer power. Lowen doesn't start as strong. He may have trouble hitting as well. He has a good amount of DEF and may double a few enemies, but it will take quite a few levels before he makes a great tank. He doesn't stand out unitl after promotion or so. Also note how he starts with 0 RES. If he's screwed in that area, mages will eat him. Now let's analyze growths. Oswin HP: 90%- Sexy. STR: 40%- Fairly Reliable SKL: 30%- Fairly Shaky SPD: 30%- Fairly Shaky DEF: 55%- Greatly Reliable RES: 30%- Fairly Shaky LUK: 35%- Decent Lowen HP: 90%- Sexy. STR: 30%- Fairly Shaky SKL: 30%- Fairly Shaky SPD: 30%- Fairly Shaky DEF: 40%- Fairly Reliable RES: 30%- Fairly Shaky LUK: 50%- Very Reliable Okay, both have great HP. Oswin's STR is reliable. He starts with 9 SKL, so if he's screwed he's bound to have at least 14. His SPD can be screwed, but his DEF will save him if he's screwed. RES is shaky for almost every melee unit, so it's not a shock. He does better in RES than most. LUK's okay. He'll still be able to hit. DEF is great, he's bound to have a lot of it. Lowen's offenses are all shaky. He has a chance of being messed up and become very, very weak. He'll be almost useless when it comes to killing. RES is like Oswin's, good for a melee unit. LUK and DEF is good. Okay, stopping here. I'll do more in the second post. |
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| Merk | Aug 7 2006, 08:07 PM Post #3 |
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ザワザワ
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And so, the debate begins between a statistical juggernaut and a mounted wall. The question begging to be asked is: What matters more, high stats or high utility? I will defend the character that champions utiliy: a man who can take great damage, wield all the melee weapons, and move with the fastest land speed in the game. Max Level Analysis
Lowen sacrifices .6 points of HP, 6.4 points of DEF, and 2.9 points of RES for an extra 3 MOVE. .6 HP is hardly worth noting. It's not even a full point of advantage. 6.4 DEF seems glaring, but in the context of the in-game, it's still very high. Lowen's average DEF outstrips that of a maxed out Heath with Hard Mode Bonus. 2.9 RES is a slight loss, but it's still very good for a melee unit, and very good for a Paladin as well. The loss of "total tanking stats" is justified with Lowen's extra 3 MOVE. Here's why: - Lowen can move far out to bait an attack from an enemy or multiple enemies. Once the enemy takes the bait, other units can move in for the kill. Although Oswin can tank slightly better, he cannot move ahead of other units and serve as bait. - Lowen's DEF disadvantage is really actually only 4.4 points in most cases. Because he has complete control of the weapon triangle, he can wield an advantage against any melee enemy. Having the advantage makes the unit take 2 less damage per hit, IIRC. - Lowen's RES disadvantage is not serious because Mage-type units (Mages, Shamans, Monks, and promoted forms) have a total range of 8 with their attack range (6 MOVE + 2 Magic) while Lowen has an attack range of 9 (8 MOVE + 1 Melee) with his best weapons. This means Lowen can wait outside of a magic user's range, and then charge in and get the first strike. Magic users have pitiful defense, so Lowen can make a kill before the enemy retaliates. Lowen can also use all three Magic Swords (Light Brand, Wind Sword, Rune Sword) to have a triangle advantage against any mage. Oswin cannot wait outside a magic user's range, even with a ranged weapon such as a Spear or Tomahawk (and ranged weapons have inferior stats to pure melee weapons) (5 MOVE + 2 Ranged), and he cannot use Magic swords to give himself an advantage.
High CON is a novelty at best, especially for Defense-focused units who eschew attack speed. For the majority of the game, Iron weapons are the preferred weapon. They're cheap, adequately powerful, and sturdy. They're reliable. Only in the endgame do you equip units with ridiculous weapons that weigh far more than the unit in question. Lowen also wields swords, and his CON is great for using swords.
It's worth mentioning that Lowen's 19 AS > Oswin's 17 AS, and can 2x attack more enemies, even if only a few more, than Oswin can. Endgame paladins have 14~15 SPD, which is low enough for Lowen to 2x attack, and fast enough for Oswin to not be able to 2x attack.
For reference Oswin's base Hit%: 46.25 Oswin's base Evade%: 47.5 Lowen's base Hit%: 44.95 Lowen's base Evade%: 59.5 Also to note: Because enemies tend to bunch themselves by class and weapon type, it's not hard to make sure Lowen -always- has the advantage in the weapon triangle. Because of this, his Hit% is effectively 15 points higher, as is his Evade%. An advantage of 1.3% in Hit is nothing, really, especially considering that most units have next to no luck and typically low SPD. Oswin's Melee Attack Range: 6 Oswin's Ranged Attack Range: 7 Lowen's Melee Attack Range: 9 Lowen's Ranged Attack Range: 10 I'd much rather take Lowen's increased attack range over a piddly 1.3 Hit%. Having superior attack range means that Lowen can wait just outside the enemy's reach, and then charge in for the first strike. Having the first strike weighs more in fights than not even 2% in Hit. Between Swords, Lances, Axes, the Wind Sword, the Light Brand, and the Rune Sword, Lowen can have the advantage on anybody that doesn't use a bow or staff.
Even in HM, early-game enemies tend to have large sacks of manure in place of an actual DEF stat. Lowen doesn't have problems dealing damage then. Considering he can usually get the weapon advantage, his MT is 2 points higher than it should be. Enemies have myriads of weaknesses. Lowen can use the following weapons to attack the weak point for massive damage: Armorslayer, Longsword, Horseslayer, Heavy Spear, Halberd, and Hammer. Even without those, the Iron Lance and Iron Axe pack quite a punch. Many (physical) enemies also tend to seriously lack RES. Lowen can strike hard with the Wind Sword, the Light Brand, and the Rune Sword. His 19.1 average seems bad, but in reality it's decent because Rekka is an easy game. Compared to other characters, especially like beasts like Oswin, his strength seems low, but it's the difference between kill and overkill. You don't get bonus EXP for overkill. Lowen does his offensive job just fine.
Here's a list of units that Lowen cannot rescue: Promoted Bartre - He's got 60 HP and 18 DEF. He'll break you before you can rescue him  Dorcas - lol dorkus Promoted Dorcas - Oswin can't rescue him, either. Hawkeye - A beast with over 50 HP and solid defensive stats. Oh yeah, Oswin can't rescue him either. Promoted Hector - The strongest unit in the game, statwise. He's too busy maxing his STR and DEF and castrating homosexual mages to be rescued. Merlinus - Doesn't count. Oswin, Promoted Oswin - Any unit that's not on that list is a unit that can be rescued by Lowen.
It'll take Oswin an extra round to do that, since he has to stay put after he rescues. Because Lowen has mounted advantages, he can rescue and then move away. That's pretty crucial. Oswin can't get to units as fast as Lowen can, so if the situation is urgent, Lowen's your man for rescuing. He moves 60% faster than Oswin (8 MOVE/5 MOVE). As far as rescuing utility goes, Lowen's better, no contest.
Initial Level Analysis Lowen is a crucial unit in the beginning of the game. While Oswin has high stats for the beginning of the game, Lowen proves his usefulness through dual weapon types and 75% more MOVE. While Oswin increases your Survival Ranking with his tank stats, Lowen will increase your Speed Rating (Turns Rating, whatever) AND your Survival Ranking with his much superior MOVE and comparable tanking stats. Chapter by Chapter 11 Eliwood: Lowen possessed the awesome Iron sword. He can supplement Rebecca's damage and pave the way for Eliwood to gain kills, or finish off enemies himself. Marcus isn't too useful here, as he auto-kills any enemy he comes in contact with. 12: There are so many brigands and fighters here, and Lowen can help Eliwood kill them. He can go get the Secret Book, and he can go to the Shop. He can do all of this quickly. 13: Activating the sidequest, Getting the Mine, and providing a wall for Guy to hit. Oswin's a better wall at that point, but by the time he gets there, the area will be swarming with backup soldiers and archers and whatnot. 13x: Saving the village, Fighting Puzon, Rescuing Merlinus, Rushing ahead to deal with the Nomads and other tough enemies, Using his sword to deal with Brigands. 14: He can get to the front lines 75% faster than Oswin. He can go to either of the houses, and he can help fight off the Pirates. 14x: He can slay thieves, protect the throne room from the Mercenary with his lance, from the Fighters with his sword. He can take some of Sealen's shots. This is where I would say the "beginning" of the game ends, but it's certainly not where his usefulness ends: 15: He can rush ahead to the frontlines and battle it out in the front lines, run down and help Lyn's group, get the Red Gem, the Heavy Lance, and he can stay back to protect Merlinus. 16: Soldier rescuing made easy. He can also guard Merlinus well, or rush ahead and stop the thief. 16x: Lowen's versatility is really nice to have when you're handling multiple tough enemies. Or if you prefer the easy way, you can just have him run through the north side with his sword and beat up pirates and talk to Fargus. &etc.
The ability to wield 2 weapons and move 7 spaces a turn seriously balances out his performance in starting stats. He can also take forest spaces faster, getting a good place to absorb attacks from. Stat Growth Analysis Instead of analyzing growth percentages and remarking whether growths are "shaky" or "good", I'm going to analyze Oswin's and Lowen's probable stats in three tiers of standard deviation. Analyzing stats at certain levels of standard deviations is more reliable than analyzing growths alone because it directly translates how stat growths will affect a stat. At RPGDL, you'll notice that next to the averages are small purple numbers. According to the Site FAQ, the small purple numbers represent the standard deviation of each stat. For reference, here are the characters and their averages, along with their standard deviations:
Down the line, it reads HP, STR, SKL, SPD, LCK, DEF, RES, only because I was too lazy to type each stat out like a million times Now, the following is the absolute lowest Oswin's and Lowen's stats can be within 3 Standard deviations. Over 99% of all expected stat values fall within 3 Standard deviations, so this is the lowest they can be over 99% of the time:
Oswin's most notable victories are in STR and DEF. But according to Lucas in one of the FE7 topics, "Really, 15+ DEF = Good". Lowen's absolute minimum defense is practically 15. Coupled with his 53 HP, Lowen's not that far behind on the defensive ball. His control of the weapon triangle still helps him with his STR and SKL, and he still has 3 more MOVE than Oswin does. Now, the following is the absolute lowest Oswin's and Lowen's stats can be within 2 Standard deviations. 95% of all expected stat values fall within 2 Standard deviations, so this is the lowest they can be, 95% of the time:
14 STR and SPD aren't terrible, and 17 DEF is worth applauding. At this point, he has more than enough stats to thrive, especially since Paladins rely more on utility than stats. Now, the following is the absolute lowest Oswin's and Lowen's stats can be within 1 Standard deviation. 68% of all expected stat values fall within 1 Standard deviation, so this is the lowest they can be, 68% of the time:
What's not to love about 57 HP + 19 DEF? He still a tank. 9.3 RES is no joke, either. Conclusion: While Lowen does lose out statistically to Oswin (and that's really not news), the depth of Lowen's "RNG Rape" still assures him great HP and good DEF. And so, for his role, Lowen has good growth rates. I await your reply :psio: |
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s | |
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| Bean | Aug 15 2006, 07:45 PM Post #4 |
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Bean
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I'll start with how the characters do at each deviation.
Both characters make good tanks at one deviation down. Neither are very speedy, though. Lowen can still dodge a bit, but it's nothing too special. His 51 avoid is not much better than the average Oswin's 48.
14 STR/SPD are bad compared to everyone else. Lowen's dodge isn't that good anymore, it's just okay. He still provides a nice wall, but won't do good damage. Seeing as how most people prefer to keep with Iron weapons towards the end of the game, Lowen won't do too much with those weapons equipped. Oswin maintains good HP, STR, and DEF as always so he can still kill. Even though paladins rely more on utility, they can't win battles with high MOV and the weapon triangle alone.
Lowen's STR and SKL are inceredibly low now and the weapon triangle won't be enough to back it up. He makes a decent wall now, but offenses are severely lacking. Oswin still maintains very high DEF/HP and decent STR. Now on to some other stuff.
I never said Oswin's tanking advantages were very significant- just that they exist. As for your MOV argument, I'll give you that one. Lowen simply has more MOV. Oswin may not have the mobility Lowen has, but he can still keep up and dominate enemies.
Since Oswin has both lances and axes, he'll never have the disadvantage in weapons if you plan it out. Oswin doesn't need the advantage because he can fight just fine and doesn't need first strike due to high HP/DEF and good RES. He can take pretty much anything coming to him (Javelins/Hand Axes for mages).
But he can't guarantee high damage.
Oswin can do that with sword/lance users as well.
Some of the weapons mentioned are scarce, so they're quite limited. Oswin can
And those are difficult to come by. Magic users get the job done easier.
Well,a reliable and high STR is certainl better. 19.1 will not always get in the kill. As for rescuing, lowen can rescue a lot of units. just pointing out Osin can rescue a litle more.
But Oswin's high DEF/RES will help him survive that extra round. He may not be as quick, but he can still get the job done.
He's not crucial, but helps. Oswin's not here, yet.
Oswin can still do sufficient damage against the axe users here and survive.
Lowen's not exactly a great wall here, so Oswin is more safe because he can take hits from all the eneimes.
Marcus is better suited because he has higher MOV and better stats (probably) at this point. Oswin can hold Merlinus off other enemies.
Oswin serves as a good Merlinus defender in this chapter and can take leftover Cavaliers and such.
Oswin is also good at defending the throne. I'll stop here because Oswin's tank and kill works out the same.
This doesn't stop Oswin from being extremely powerful in the beginning and promoting considerably early. There, I finished. Risking my English One grade, though. |
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| Merk | Aug 17 2006, 10:09 PM Post #5 |
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ザワザワ
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Really, not much changes at one deviation down.
14 STR/SPD are bad compared to everyone else, but are good in the context of the in-game. He still isn't doubled by anything that doesn't have "swordmaster" in its name. If Lowen's dodge at this point is just "okay", then Oswin's is abysmal. Oswin will no longer be able to serve as a decent counter to mages. He doesn't have enough RES to absorb them, and his Evade isn't high enough to dodge accurate anima magic. Oswin's attack range renders him prone to the first strike. Lowen still has the attack range and magic swords advantages over Oswin, making him a better counter to mages. 8 MT Iron Axes are still very good even with low STR. Magic swords that bypass DEF and specialty weapons that do critical damage even the odds in favor of his lower attack stats.
Oswin's SKL isn't much better (only 8% in Hit, approximately) and he doesn't have Swords to pick up the Hit pace. 9.5 SPD is terrible; Oswin will get doubled by Paladins (still generally not a threat unless the Paladin carries an Armorslayer/Heavy Lance/Hammer) and most Sages/Bishops/Druids (Oswin will get eaten alive). Lowen's 11 SPD point makes him immune to double attacks from 14 SPD paladins.
A unit that can do Oswin's job and do it faster and more effectively is a better unit. Lowen's high MOV makes earning a higher Tactics rating more feasible. Tactics is based on turns spent, IIRC, and the more ground covered in each move, the less turns it will take to clear a level.
Oswin will never have the convenience of besting axes unless he uses an Axereaver lance. As I've mentioned before, the "Reaver" series weapons are inferior weapons. Oswin also doesn't have the convenience of switching to Swords for higher accuracy. In his lower two tiers of SD, Oswin's SKL can really mess up. He may have a tough time nailing dodgy enemies like SMs and Valkyries. You say Oswin doesn't need the advantage because he has high HP/DEF and RES. Lowen also has excellent HP/DEF and RES. He tanks almost as well as Oswin does. Lowen doesn't "need" the advantages either; the advantages put him in a sphere of usefulness higher than Oswin's. Oswin can wield Javelins and Hand Axes to combat mages. So can Lowen. The implication is that Oswin's best role is that of a nearly immobile guardian -- he stands there with a Javelin/Hand Axe and soaks up all the damage that he accumulates and gives it back in spades. But Lowen can do that, too. He can be a great Merlinus guard, or Throne-protector, or whatever defense-oriented role requires him. However, Lowen isn't limited to defense roles. Because of his solid offensive stats and 8 MOV, he can rush ahead to the front or mid lines as well and take offensive roles. This is Oswin's greatest shortcoming. You say, he doesn't lag behind with only 1 less MOV than other units. I say, his MOV limits him from anything except defensive roles. In the beginning of a chapter, this difference is not apparent, but the MOV difference shows as each turn completes and Oswin is continually 1 space behind. Eventually, the other units will be forced to play "wait for the asthmatic kid", or will simply rush ahead of him. In HHM, turns are scarce if you want a good tactics rating. You can't squander them on escorting a slow unit through the field if you want to S Rank. Oswin's tanking advantages over Lowen are excessive and unnecessary. Lowen has great defenses like Oswin, but also has the ability to move forward and attack. His versatility is his key strength and advantage over Oswin.
Supports Lowen's support options are better than Oswin's support options, no contest. Lowen supports with: Marcus Ice 21/48/75 Harken Fire 22/49/76 Isadora Darkness 24/51/78 Eli Rebecca Fire 38/78/118 Oswin supports with: Hector Thunder 31/71/111 Matthew Wind 38/78/118 Priscilla Wind 41/81/121 Dorcas Fire 41/81/121 Serra Thunder 71/151/231 Marcus is extremely useful in the beginning of the game, and works well with Lowen, being in the same sphere of MOV range. Harken gains HM bonuses, and is a very solid and powerful Hero. Isadora is a decent paladin that comes with some nice equipment. Eliwood is a balanced Lord unit, necessary in his own mode. He gets an early promotion in Hector's mode, as well. Rebecca is the only option for archer until Louise unless you trained Wil, but the two are interchangeable. Hector is probably Oswin's best support. They have the same MOV range, same purpose and similar stats. However, Matthew is a piss-poor support. Matthew can't do any heavy tanking. He is outclassed as a thief by Legault and as an assassin by Jaffar. Priscilla is a useful mounted healer, but she is outclassed by Pent later on. Dorcas is a terrible, terrible unit with equally terrible stat placement. Bartre is the better warrior. Serra is a decent healer, but look at that time for the supports! o_o! Good night, Tactics ranking. In summary, Lowen's supports are better and take less time to build. Oswin's support options are less desirable and take a long time to build. In particular, Lowen's supports with Harken, Eliwood, and Rebecca are nice because they offer him STR boosting. Ping, pong. |
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s | |
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| Sentenal | Aug 29 2006, 04:14 PM Post #6 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Well, Bean has withdrawn. Merk wins by default. |
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8:07 PM Nov 27
