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| odelay_ vs Sadaharu Inui | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 31 2006, 06:26 PM (202 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Aug 31 2006, 06:26 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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The rules should be known by now. Three posts each. odelay_ begins. |
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| odelay | Sep 1 2006, 06:24 PM Post #2 |
que?
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okay... so, the battle of paladins, Makalov vs Titania where should i begin? how about these growths! Makalov: HP: 60% STR: 55% MAG: 5% SKL: 45% SPD: 50% LUK: 25% DEF: 45% RES: 20% Titania: HP:80% STR:45% MAG: 25% SKL: 60% SPD: 50% LUK: 45% DEF: 40% RES: 40% so, titania has better growths in HP, MAG, SKL, LUK, and RES while Makalov takes STR, and DEF they tie in SPD okaay...so titania seems to have the growth edge in a few things, lets take care of them 1st of all, while tatania has nice HP growth, for me, Makalov has maxed out with more HP than titania, and more than every single other paladin, but not by a large amount really MAG isnt important, it doesnt affect niether of them unless your using a migic weapon, which there are better canidates for SKL isnt too important, Makalov has Swords, which have good hit% anyway, so that closes the gap LUK isnt that inportant either, just adds a smidgen of avoid and crit (i beleive). RES isnt too much trouble, makalov has the avoid to dodge alot of magic, and neither are really targeted by magic users anyway now, STR and DEF as you probably know, Makalov is more focused on STR and DEF, while retaining many other positive aspects as well. on average, for me, Titania's strength sticks around 20. Not impressive. Especially during later matches where you need pwer to overcome. Makalov has power. Constantly, he maxes out in STR. And for defense, Titania sticks around 17-20 for me, while once again, Makalov takes the lead and maxes out. and he does have a tad more HP, but they both have good enough defenses to last. In avoid, Makalov has come out higher than Titania, although i can't fetch the exact numbers at this time. In CRIT, neither one wins. They are both low in this. That what paladins do in this game. An important thing that gives Makalov an advantage over Titania is Weapon Versitality. Titania comes with axes and lances, not bad, but it doesnt always fit. With Makalov, he has swords, and you can choose from Axes, Lances, and Bows. If you need a particular weapon, you can give it to Makalov to suit your needs. and Bows gove him a nice advantage over flyers! that alone gives him the better weapon choice. Late in the game, Titania becomes weak. Late game, she can't kill enemies anymore, they become too pwerful for her. She becomes more of an obstacle than a helper late-game, becasue she can't kill anything but the simplest units. Makalov on the other had, has the strenght to dish it out to the enimies, even late game. And of course, you can choose his weapons to give you advantages to what you want, if your clan is having trouble with sword users, give him lances, lance user? axes. and that often-helpful edge above flyers can be aquired by giving bows. Makalov is definitly conveinient to have around. Makalov is definitly up there in the ranks fo the paladins, and is above Titania. He's the most pwerful offensivly and Defensivly, while having the best HP, and at the same time having Good SKL and SPD, usually ends aroun 22-24 for me. Titania is plain too weak to be if use when the rolling gets tough. /end 8) |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 1 2006, 10:01 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Yes, it's quite clear that Titania has much better growths. But just how much does she win by? A lot. Titania's RES growth is 45%, not 40%, so her advantage is even bigger than you showed. Makalov's total growth is 305%. Titania's total growth is 390%. Titania crushes Makalov in total growth, and will grow at a rate of 85% faster than him in statistics. 20% more in HP. 10% less in STR. 20% more in MAG. 15% more in SKL. 20% more in LUK. 5% less in DEF. 25% more in RES. Titania's victories in growths are huge, Makalov's two wins in growths are very small.
I'll start off with saying that personal experiences are worthless, and I will not address that issue further. Titania averages 48.2 HP. Makalov averages 50.4 HP. Pretty small advantage for Makalov, but pretty sad considering he's got so much time to grow and Titania doesn't. Titania's superior HP growth helps her keep up. 80% > 60%. Titania's MAG is enough to make the flame lance and bolt axe decent weapons for her to combat generals and wyvern riders with. She has 8.7 MAG to Makalov's 5.4. 25% growth is a lot better than 5% growth. SKL is very important. SKL determines hit rate, critical hit rate, and SKL determines whether special skills activate. The chances of skills like counter, sol, and adept activating is equal to the unit's SKL. Titania's SKL advantage of 24.1 to Makalov's 22.0 means she'll have a higher hit rate, more critical, and a higher chance for skills to activate. With a 60% growth in SKL, it's not too rare for her SKL to go all the way to the cap. Makalov's SKL growth is only 45%. LUK is great. Half of your LUK is added to your hit rate, LUK negates enemy critical points, and LUK adds to your avoidance. It's an important and versatile statistic. Titania gets 19.6 LUK, Makalov's LUK is only 15.3. Titania also wins in LUK growth with her 45% over his 25%. RES is pretty important in every FE game. I don't see why people underrate this statistic so much, especially since magic units are a lot more plentiful than people realize. Makalov's RES only hits 10.8 and he grows it at a mere 20%. Titania's RES hits a nice 15.6 and she grows it at a whopping 45%, showing that her advantage is huge. Status staves won't affect her as much and she can take some hits from magicians, unlike Makalov.
Makalov's STR average is 25.3 and Titania's is only 20.5, but she is by no means weak. Titania has enough STR to use all the axes in the game without a cut to her SPD. She's fast and has great SKL, so she won't have trouble hitting or double attacking. Titania's DEF averages out at only 18.6, Makalov's hits 24.7 which is...ghastly. He's the superior physical tank, I'll grant him that. Critical hit is determined by SKL, and Titania's 24.1 SKL makes her have a critical hit rate of 12. Her growth of 60% could make her go all the way to her cap of 26, giving her a critical hit rate of 13%. Makalov's SKL average is only 22.0, giving him 1% less critical, and his 45% growth can't exactly carry him to his cap without a lot of RNG blessing.
The axe and lance combo makes for a lot of power and distance options. Javelin based weapons and hand axe based weapons are easy to get and very useful because they can attack from near and afar. Makalov can't use the sonic sword due to his pathetic MAG, so distance is out of the question for him until he promotes. Two weapons aren't greater than two weapons. They're even in weapon selection. If anything, Titania's better for not being forced to use a weapon that Ike and the Swordmasters are better with, anyways.
Makalov must also be weak too, because Titania beats him in SKL, LUK, and RES. Just because Makalov wins in STR and DEF doesn't mean he's the much better unit for later on if he still loses in several stats. All of the Paladins are up there when it comes to usefulness and power, but Titania's more useful. Titania starts off as a level 1 Paladin with these stats: HP: 33 STR: 12 MAG: 4 SKL: 13 SPD: 14 LUK: 11 DEF: 11 RES: 7 She starts off with an A in axes and a C in lances, which is higher than the game allows for any unpromoted units. Titania's bases aren't impressive for her level, but her bases are substantially stronger than any of the units you have at the time and she's much stronger than any of the enemies' for a very long time. She starts off at high power compare to the enemies and your own units. She joins you in chapter 1 with THAT kind of power. Makalov starts off as a level 10 Free Knight with these stats: HP: 30 STR: 9 MAG: 2 SKL: 7 SPD: 10 LUK: 8 DEF: 10 RES: 2 Makalov's statistics for chapter 14 are pathetic. Titania, Oscar, and Keiran are all at a much higher level by then and probably all promoted, even. Even Astrid could be at a higher level due to her amazing Paragon skill granting her double EXP. The point is, Makalov is barely any better than the enemies around him and much weaker than any of the bosses for a while, so why bother using him over units that are much stronger and already get the job done? |
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| odelay | Sep 3 2006, 06:15 PM Post #4 |
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que?
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okay first, i would like to say this: I did not know that personalt experiences are worth crap, if i had known this earlier, i wouldn't have. :\
well, she has better growths in stats that are not very significant, or doesn't have a large advantage in ceartin stat growths 20% more HP is nice, but in the end, they both have around the same HP (not based on "personal experiences :psio: ), but either way, they are fine. 20% more MAG. Titania comes out with a few maoe magic points. WHOOP-DEE-DOO. unless you are a big fan of magical weapons, this is useless. There are better canidates for magical weapons than both Makalov and Titania, so this "growth advantage" is moot. 15% more SKL really isnt too big. Titania averages 2 points ahead in skill. thats nothing. the difference is very very small. When it comes to skills, Counter and Tempest are worth nothing. Skill activation has no meaning here. Titania's slight skill advantage does not have significant impact, and does not make Titania any better. 20% LUK. this hurts a bit more than the others, but LUK doesnt affect a unit too much, unless there is a large gap, which there isn't in this case. It gives her a few points in critical avoid, but that is very much useless. Not many enemies in this game have high CRIT, and Makalov does make it up with his defense. 25% RES is nothing too major. Definitly doesnt give her an sdvantage over Makalov. You can run up and kill magic users in 1 hit with makalov, and usually you can do the same with Titania, so its no big deal. Even if Makalov were to be attacked, he has better avoid. And he has the HP. yea, so on paper it may seem that titania has a good edge in growths, but when actually applied in battle, its not much of a deal. now on the other hand, Makalov has 10% more STR, the most important stat for melee units. This means Makalov's STR will be around 5-6 points higher than Titania. Big difference there folks, which i will get into later. And Makalov has 5-7 (note im just giving these stat gaps a little more spectrum, becasue it can go either way) more defense, anotehr very important stat for melee units. When Titania gets hit late-game, shes taking a little bit, but it can add up and put her in the danger of dying quickly. Makalov has great defense, hes practically unstoppable when his DEF is combined with his very nice avoid.
The axe and lance combo makes for more distance options than swords, that can't be debated against. BUT, what is there? Theres hand axes, javelins, and short spears. and then theres the rare tomahawk, and the fast-to-break spear. So, when using the Hand Axe, Javelin, and Short Spear (which doesn't come along too often itself), she has range. But wait, those weapons are weak. Late game, when her strenght begins to fail you when you give her weak weapons, these extra range weapons are useless. If you want titania to kill late-game units, you HAVE to move on and give her bigger, more expensive, easier to break, less accurate weapons. A waste. When you class change makalov, he can use ranged weapons. And unlike titania, he can make very good use of them. He has more STR, and enough to use these ranged weapons to kill enimies. Titania doesnt reazlly have a range advantage. And swords are more accurate than lances and axes, making it easier to raise him, and giving him more HIT%, which does more than bridge the smell SKL gap between them. There is however, one major major disadvantage to Titania, which affects oh so much more than just herself. Fact: Titania is a EXP LEECH thats right, when you use Titania, you are sucking away EXP from your other units. This means that if you lean on pre-promotes like Titania, the rest of your clan suffers. For a while, she can clear hordes of enemies. Every enemy you kill with her deprives your clan of experience. This is very costly. You can ditch Titania and raise the rest of your party to be very powerful. Or, you can lean on titania, and she will steal the exp away from the rest of your units. You becaome dependant of her, and its never a good thing when you becaome dependant of a unit, especially one like Titania. you see, Late game, Titania is no longer poweful. You start to realize she can't kill anything anymore, and she starts to get hit more often. But if you deoended on her earlier, that means the rest of your party is weak. so when Titania isn't strong anymore, what can you do? the rest of your party is weaker becasue you used her earlier. I'll see if you can answer that one. Let this thought dwell: when you use Titania, the rest of your party suffers. |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 3 2006, 07:22 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Not significant and not huge advantages? She crushes him in growths so terribly that you can't even begin to compare them growthwise. HP, SKL, LUK, and RES are insignificant? Hardly. Yes, they end up with the same on average. 60%, however, is not a high growth, and Makalov starts with less HP than Titania does. Makalov can get RNG raped and have low HP, while Titania starts with a decent amount and grows it at a whopping 80%. It's not moot. There really aren't better choices for something like, say, the Bolt Axe, which she can use and still deal decent damage with because she can hit 10 MAG easily. 2 more SKL grants 4 more accuracy and 1% more critical and a 2% more chance of something like Sol activating. When you add that all up, 2 more SKL is indeed a nice advantage. She may only average 2.1 more SKL, but she starts with more and grows it at a nice 60%, meaning she can cap it with just a little bit of luck. Titania gets 4.3 more LUK on average, which is a noticable difference. She has 4% more avoid added, 2% more hit added, and 4% more critical avoid. Like SKL, this stat's advantages add up and make the advantage noticable. Makalov's RES is terrible compared to most of the units of the game. Even Gatrie gets more. Titania averages 4.8 more RES than he does, which might as well be 5 more RES. She can shrug off magic blows and avoid status staves more easily. Makalov will take a lot of damage from magicians and avoiding a sleep staff is something he can only do in his dreams. Makalov's avoid isn't any better. He gets 2 more SPD, granting him 4 more avoid from SPD. Titania gets 4 more LUK, granting her 4 more avoid. Their avoid is even. Titania's edge in growths is also noticable when she levels up. She'll easily gain 4-5 stats every time, while Makalov will gain only 2-4 stats every time. STR isn't the most important. It's just as important as the others. Without SKL, you can't hit or critical. Without SPD, you can't double attack. All the stats are important. Titania's avoid is just as good as Makalov's and she has superior RES to make up for less DEF. They're both even when it comes to tanking and survival, with Makalov having perhaps a slight edge due to melee units outnumbering magicians.
Hand axes and javelins are cheap and easy for her to weild. They're ALWAYS useful. How can attacking at more range be less useful for her because she only gets 21 STR? It's better to attack from a distance to weaken something than to do nothing. Even late in the game, she can use distance weapons to soften enemies up for your other units to get the kill. Her STR is good enough for her to use a Steel Axe, which is cheap and has good usage. This should be here main weapon for most of the game because it's strong and cheap. Her SKL is good enough for her to take advantage of the power and range that lances and axes offer. Hand axes and javelins have terrible hit, and Makalov's SKL is less suited for using those weapons.
Only terrible tacticians create EXP leeches. No unit is an EXP leech by default; they are just at a higher level and gain fewer EXP points. Tacticians create EXP leeches by misusing Jeigan/Oifaye units like Titania. Titania's avoid always remains very superior thanks to her high SPD and LUK, so she'll still be dodging just as often. Her very powerful growths make her even in statistics with the other units, not inferior. She is not a Jeigan like Jeigan, FE 3 Alan, or FE 6 Marcus. She is an Oifaye, like Oifaye, Eyvel, and Seth. Her average stats are high enough to take into the final chapter without worry, and she can compete evenly with your other units when it comes to proficiency on the battlefield. Mediocre STR doesn't hurt her much because she can use the strongest weapon types in the game, lances and axes. Titania's amazing usefulness comes from her massive power advantages early on. Use her wisely, and she's the epitome of usefulness. |
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| odelay | Sep 4 2006, 02:34 PM Post #6 |
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que?
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last one...hope i did well for a first timer 
i have said this before, and I'm gonna say it again. On paper, yes it seems she has great growths over makalov. In battle, Makalov's Strenght and Defense beat Titania's, and the gaps in the other stats are very small. And even though she has higher HP growth, he still comes out with more HP, so thats hardly an advantage.
it is highly improbable that you can get RNG raped with a growth of 60%, besides, he even gets promotion bonuses, while titania doesn't!
those are quite small differences, and do not make Titania a better unit tham Makalov.
he still has plenty of skill and speed, you should know that. He has no trouble whatsoever hitting enemies (swords close any gap and are more accurate than lances and axes, I've stated this before). and He has excellent avoid, on par with Titania. You really can't differentiate Titania and Makalov in speed and avoid, the gap is too damn small (if any gap). Makalov can double attack anything, just like titania, who said he couldn't?
I'm stating that in late levels, Titania can't kill enemies with hand axes or javelins anymore, stripping her of any range advantage she has. Makalov can still use these weapons to kill enemies in 2 hits, giving HIM the advantage! you notice that the tables begin to turn for makalov.
the teeny tiny gap that they have in skill still doesn't pose any problems for Makalov.
have you contradicted yourself? There are practically even, with, like you said, Makalov having an advantage thanks to his superior defense
true that, but everyone is a n00b at one point but still, using her at all derives some sort of experience from the rest of your party, not a good thing
were you joking? if you take titania into the final mission, she will get her ass kicked. inevitably. OVERALL: Titania is powerful at first, but using derives the rest of your party from exp. Makalov is nothing special at first, but he quickly overtakes Titania, and becomes one of your best units. Late game, (around where Makalov comes in!) Titania becomes weaker, her strength cannot keep up with the more powerful enemies. Makalov rises up, killing enemies with no problem. Soon enough, everything turns to Makalov's favor. Titania cannot be used well in the later missions, while Makalov is quite possibly the most sturdy person besides Ike. Heck, even they are pretty even. Makalov is a highly moblie tank. Titania is a highly moblie guppy. Makalov rises to power, while Titania sinks. Play through, and its proven. Makalov crushes Titania. Late game, Titania can;t hold a candle to him. Thanks if you took the time to read through my first debate, we need more of these things! 
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 4 2006, 04:12 PM Post #7 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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On anything she has the growth advantage. 390% > 305%. Makalov has better growths in STR and DEF...but loses everywhere else, big time. STR and DEF are not the only statistics that matter. In the end, due to Makalov having a lot of levels to gain, he ends up winning or going even with Titania in a lot of areas, but that's only if he gains normally with his less-than-amazing growths. Titania has safe bases and amazing growths.
It's even less probably for Titania to get RNG raped because she has a whopping 80% growth in the stat. 60% is good...for something that isn't HP. 60% is less HP growth than Isadora, Marcus, and Canas from FE 7. 
Small differences when looked at alone. Big differences when you add them up. More hit, more evasion added, and more critical avoid.
Swords are better for hitting, but much weaker for dealing damage. Titania with an axe will deal more damage than Makalov with a puny sword. Point is, Titania wins in SKL and LUK, meaning her hit is higher.
2.1 more SKL = 1% more critical, 4% more hit, and 2% higher chance of skills activating.
No, because I never said her avoid remains superior to Makalov's, just superior in general when it comes to gameplay.
She should only be used in sticky situations. What's better, having your unit die just to try and get 20 EXP, or having Titania save that unit and get 3 EXP? The latter is much better.
So, I guess Makalov gets his ass kicked, too? Titania wins in SKL, LUK, and RES. She's more accurate, better at critical avoiding, and can take magic blows and status staves a lot better.
How does he quickly overtake Titania if he's at a much lower level than she is and her averages are only slightly worse? I guess if Titania can't hold a candle to Makalov that SKL, LUK, and RES are meaningless stats and having the highest non-laguz growths in the game doesn't mean anything. yasure, not bad for a newbie GJ |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 4 2006, 04:12 PM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Debate closed. Send votes to me, judges. 
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2:55 AM Nov 27
