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| Cooltrainer Nick vs Wind Sword | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 31 2006, 06:27 PM (213 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Aug 31 2006, 06:27 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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The rules should be known by now. Three posts each. Cooltrainer Nick has the first post. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Nick | Sep 1 2006, 10:26 AM Post #2 |
Brit
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OK. Done my revision  so it's time to get this started.Gatrie is a behemoth, a tank, one made to destroy. He comes early on, in chapter 3, as a level 9 knight. He has solid starting stats, save for resistance, but can take most things physical in his stride. With 31 HP, 12 strength and 14 defence, he can withstand the puny blows of his foe and then hammer back hard. Whilst Nephenee, coming in at chapter 11 at level 7, has only two points less than him in total (at two levels lower), before long it is easy to see that she is outclassed by Gatrie. Let's kick this off, like most true FEF debaters, with the 20/20 stats. Nephenee HP: 43.6 Strength: 22.5 Magic: 9.4 Skill: 27.5 Speed: 25.9 Defence: 22.2 Resistance: 13.0 Luck: 14.0 Gatrie HP:57.5 Strength: 28.7 Magic: 3.5 Skill: 24.2 Speed: 14.5 Defence: 29.8 Resistance: 12 Luck: 12.5 and comparing the two (bracketed numbers are the difference) HP: Gatrie (13.9) Strength: Gatrie (6.2) Magic: Nephenee (5.9) Skill: Nephenee (3.3) Speed: Nephenee (11.4) Defence: Gatrie (7.6) Resistance: Nephenee (1) Luck: Nephenee (1.5) Looks, from that, like Nephenee has it in the bag: 5 victories to Gatrie's 3. However, the actual total result is a clear 4.6 point victory for Gatrie. HP: Look at that difference. 13.9. Combined with his awesome defence, that could help Gatrie withstand goodness knows how many more attacks than Nephenee. 57.5 HP is nothing to be sniffed at. Strength: Gatrie wins by 6.2. That's quite a difference, and means that Gatrie really will be dealing out MUCH more damage than Nephenee. It makes Gatrie a much better choice for strong enemies, as his excellent attack will do noticable damage, and his stunning defence provides him with ample protection against the returning blows. Magic: Nephenee wins. Gatrie can really get by fine without magic, Nephenee doesn't need it, her strength's not that bad. These points would be better spent elsewhere. Skill: 3.3 difference in Nephenee's favour, so Nephenee will be hitting more often, not to mention having a very large critical hit rate owing to the halberdier factor. It's quite impressive, but it's not everything. Speed: 11.4 difference. It's big. Gatrie isn't expected to have a high speed, being a knight/general, and it's almost 15 anyway, not TOO shabby, it's just that Nephenee is really quite fast. This means that she will dodge better, well done. Gatrie, with a defence like that, really can withstand most hits. Magic? You should have the sense to keep him away. Defence: Need I say it? Gatrie's defence is much greater than Nephenee's. As stated above, combined with his godly HP it allows him to shrug off the blows of enemies, and you'll be very near the end of most chapters before he starts thinking that he might be getting a little tired. And that's if you've sent him out to deal with all and sundry. Resistance: Nephenee wins by one point. They should both really be kept away from magic users, but 12 and 13 aren't that bad, so they can both go fighting magicians. Guess what? Again, Gatrie's HP allows him to do it better, 1 resistance to 13.9 HP. It's 14 attacks before the difference is made up. Luck: Nephenee wins by 1.5. Not much of a difference, but it allows her to dodge, hit and avoid criticals more efficiently. As I say, still not much of a difference. Now, I was interested to find that strength is now used to determine whether units lose speed from weapons or not. So, I decided to look at the difference. Gatrie has 11 levels to go (up to level 20, it's even less if you upgrade him from level 15-19) before he can wield any lance in the game without losing speed. When you promote him then he can wield any single weapon it is possible for him to use without losing speed (the highest being the runesword at weight 19). Nephenee, the unfortunate little girl, has to make it to level 8 Halberdier to lose that horrible feeling of a weapon scraping the ground behind you. Promotion bonus included, she still has 21 levels to go minumum (if you promote her at an earlier level, it would take even longer) until she can wield that heavy spear without her poor little arms getting tired. Well, I think that's enough for now. I'll bore you some more later... I look forward to your response. |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
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| Conan O'Brien | Sep 1 2006, 09:02 PM Post #3 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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Ummm... How'd you get those stats? Nephenee should max her Skill and Speed at 28 and 26 respectively. In fact, Nephenee overshoots her Speed and Skill easily, reaching as high as 30 for each. Likewise, Gatrie should have higher Strength and Defense, they should both be maxed.
You haven't played the game, so I'll be the first to tell you, Gatrie is only available for three chapters, and comes in halfway for one chapter. Then he ditches you until chapter 13. You get Nephenee chapter 11. Therefore, it doesn't translate into all that much of a difference. Since in the three chapters you have Gatrie before he ditches you he is much more powerful than the enemies, he won't grow all that much anyways.
Nephenee beats Gatrie in more stats, clearly. But in the stats Gatrie wins, he really wins. Unfortunately, that comes at a cost of his other stats. Furthermore, Gatrie really only beats Nephenee in stats she's already good in, with the exception of HP
Nephenee is designed to have relatively low HP. She'll survive less than ten blows, but at the same time it's easy for her to reach half health for her Wrath to activate.
Gatrie's greater strength is a plus, but it's very VERY rare that he will ever double attack. Therefore, with a little less Strength, but double attack, Nephenee will be the one dealing the more damage. Not to mention her higher critical rate, quadrupled with Wrath.
Agreed, Magic is more or less worthless for melee units. Only Devdan and Taureneo can deal decent damage with Flame Lance anyways.
Halbierders don't have a critical bonus. That was invented for our RPG.  Nephenee DOES however have Wrath. Skill also determines the chance of Luna activating, which is Gatrie and Nephenee's Master Skill. It should also be noted that Nephenee will have much higher skill then Gatrie for almost the entire game, but she caps early, giving him time to catch up.
15 Speed is "not too shabby?" First off, it's the worst Speed in the game. Period. Second off, not only will not EVER double attack anyone. But you will be double attacked way too much. Most fast units deal very little or no damage to Gatrie, but Bishops, Laguz and Sages will never fail to double attack and leave large holes where his health should be. Not to mention most axemen have the strength to successfully bypass his defenses. That adds up. Nephenee has far better speed and skill, meaning she won't be attacked twice, and she has a much better chance of dodging it. You should have the sense to keep him away from magic. It sounds so easy, doesn't it? But magic, of course, has a range of two (or up to 10), meaning Gatrie wouldn’t be on the front lines, or even the back lines. He’d have to be in the third row. With long-rangers he would be forced to sit and do nothing but wait for the guy to run out, so he could attempt to catch up. Yeah right. Again, Nephenee caps early, meaning for most of the game her Speed will be the best in your party. Knight's are expected to have low Speed. Is that so? Does that change the underlying reality that it still sucks? Besides, no Knight it recent memory has had Speed that low, besides Wallace and Douglas. In fact, Bors and Wendy had over twenty. I'm skipping Resistance, since that more or less played in with Speed. But let me note that Gatrie's Resistance is acquired almost entirely through level-ups, while Nephenee gets about less from level-ups, and more from starting stats and promotion gains. This means for most of the game the resistance gap will be much more defined. It also means that while Gatrie can be seriously raped in that regard, while Nephenee can't as much. Both have low enough growth that either can happen.
No you needed say it, but let Nephenee not be put down as some weak little woman. Gatrie's defense is great, be assured, but Nephenee's isn't that bad either. It just pales in comparison. Almost all units do. Luck, hardly a difference, but again helps to the whole hit percentage and dodge percentage thing.
Both these paragraphs work off the assumption they have even NEAR the same amount of Speed, which they don't. Gatrie's Strength doesn't help his attack speed in the least, because his Speed sucks. Initially, Nephenee will feel the burn because of her low Strength. But that isn't a unit flaw. With the new weapon weight system, virtually all units have to level up before they can effectively use heavy weapons. Nephenee is no exception. With Nephenee's high Speed, she's actually less affected. Only Knights start off able to use many weapons well, which isn't all that useful with their speed. Furthermore, upon promoting Nephenee, which is when Gatrie gains use of all his weapons, Nephenee can use all but four lances, and all are within three of her strength. That should be more than enough for common use. Rebuttal done, counterattack, commence. Gatrie has a gaping flaw, he is very hard to level up. Gatrie has less movement than most units, and as such will begin to fall more and more behind in a battle. You also will need to maneuver him away from magic-users, axemen, anyone with an Armorslayer, Heavy Lance, Hammer(Dear God, watch out for Hammers), Sonic Sword, Runesword, Bolt Axe, or Flame Lance, out of the range of long magic, out of range of Berserks, and Sleeps, all while trying to give him experience. Gatrie is a Tank, Tanks are intended on the front line, in front of weaker units, to take hits and deal them back. How is Gatrie supposed to stay there while avoiding all these units? Not to mention Gatrie's high strength is given to him primarily through level-ups. At only two levels higher than Nephenee, he only has four more strength. But he still lacks the speed to double attack. The result is inevitable. Gatrie never will kill an enemy on the first shot until he's a General, with the exception of Myrmidons and Thieves(Stiletto: Remember to red flag that one, too.). He can kill magic-users too I guess, if you're dumb enough to try it. He'll either have to injure a unit(if he hits), and attack again(if he hits), or critical(if he hits) which won't happen. Gatrie's experience is at first gained primarily through damaging a unit and Bonus Experience, rarely by kills. As such, he grows like a slug. Likewise, because he will never double attack, his weapon level grows far slower, and it's rare that he can even reach A. And IF he reaches A, you can forget about using anything but an Iron Sword. That's all for now. I'm tired. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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| Nick | Sep 2 2006, 09:40 AM Post #4 |
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Brit
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Well, I have to admire your start.
I got them from the source that is supposed to be used for this tournament. You obviously know better  . Nice opener, you got me there.
Sorry, you must be SO disappointed when I tell you that you're not the first to inform me of this. I've talked to Inui and Hollie about this beforehand, so unfortunately it comes as no new information. Anyhow, let's check the difference. Gatrie comes in at chapter 3. Stays for 3 chapters. 5 chapters later, you get Nephenee. And two chapters later, you get Gatrie back. Let's see, that means that you STILL get Gatrie for a chapter more than Nephenee.
Gotta hand that one to you. My mistake.
According to the correct tournament statistic source, she doesn't cap at all <_< . eh, being pedantic rather than relevant to the debate, but I think you mean what I bolded. You should check your post, it's hard to be awarded marks if you type poorly.
Well, I didn't phrase it so well as I might have liked, but really, it's obvious: Gatrie's not gonna be the only unit running around on the front lines. He does his job, plays the tank against the enemies that aren't wielding the highly specific and relatively rare selection of weapons that you later describe, as well as magic. You have other units to take out magicians, mainly magic users owing to their greater resistance. The stilleto etc? You should have someone capable of taking those out handy at the time.
Again, you're wrong.
Does Gatrie NEED that speed? Granted, he's no Oswin in his stats, but he deals massive damage with one hit as opposed to less with two, and he can take it all with his whopping defence as opposed to skipping out of the way. The FE8 Generals, Gilliam and Amelia, don't really count as the units on that game have such overdone stats in comparison to their foes. Again, grammar please.
Uh, obviously it DOES help his attack speed, if he had poor attack he'd be attacking at an even slower rate and getting doubled by EVERYONE. Just the same as Nephenee is brought down that little bit by her lower strength, otherwise SHE would be double attacking everyone. I love how you make it sound like each and every one of those weapons will be used against him on a regular basis. THEY WON'T, with the exception of magic and axes (which he can take care of on the whole anyway, as they're not specialised). I seriously doubt that Gatrie will be having to watch out for all those items at once, and once again you're overlooking the fact that you can get your other units to deal with them. Gatrie takes the mainstream soliders, other units take those that would cause him some damage. *sigh* stop making it sound so difficult. You're just phrasing it really badly. His skill's pretty decent, so he'll hit often enough, and so he attacks. Hits once. Owing to his excellent defence, he takes little or no damage when struck back. Then, the enemy attacks back. Ping, no damage, thud, enemy's dead. Does it make a difference to whether he kills them in your phase or not? Actually, it's just more experience, so congratulations, sir, you've managed to subtly disprove your argument about Gatrie being hard to train up. ...I explained the first bit of this above. As for that bullshit about only ever using an iron sword, it would be really easy to get to the next level. You just stick him in the thick of some melee units (with that old Iron Sword) and watch their futile attacks rebound off his armour, followed by him seriously damaging most of them and killing the rest.  Well, supports. Gatrie supports with 4 units: Shinon, Ilyana, Marcia and Astrid. First of all, they're all good units in their own ways, and none of them is similar to Gatrie in what you use them for. Shinon is a very useful unit, a Sniper that assists you from an early level. He's worth supporting easily. Ilyana is quite a useful mage, she turns out quite powerful in the end, her poor defence being compensated for by her support partner Gatrie's excellence in that area. Marcia is a pegasus knight who ends up with very good stats, definitely worth using. Also, she has great freedom of movement (being a flyer) and so can get to those enemies that wield weapons designed to take down beasts like Gatrie. Moreover, she can take care of herself sufficiently, with fair defensive stats in both physical and magical areas. Astrid isn't SO good, but can still be a useful unit to pair Gatrie with. It is easy to raise her in this partnership; she can easily step in and finish off the enemies that Gatrie has left almost dead. Now, Nephenee supports three characters, only one of which is worthwhile. Let me explain: Brom, you don't need, Gatrie outclasses him and so he can be discarded. Calill, the sage. There are better alternatives to Calill, such as Tormod. However, she does have some usefulness, her all-round stats aren't too bad, and she comes pre-promoted with some quite good stats to her profile. Devdan, the halberdier, is more of an alternative to Nephenee than a partner. Their stats end up very close, actually, a mere 0.4 apart in total. This comparison brings me nicely into my next point. Alternatives. Gatrie has two alternatives to his position; Brom and Tauroneo. He outclasses both, by less than the amount that seperates him from Nephenee, but outclasses them nonetheless. Neither of them meet his HP, Strength or Defence, the primary concerns of a tank. Therefore, he is better suited to his role than either of his rivals. Nephenee and Devdan, well, it's close so far as stats go. There is a mere 0.4 difference in the stats of Nephenee and her pre-promoted counterpart. Nephenee does in the end outclass Devdan, due to situational usefulness and stat placements, but it's much closer than the gap between Gatrie and his fellows-in-armour. I won't write a conclusion, it'll just spoil the rest. Try to get the stats right for the next post...
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| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
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| Conan O'Brien | Sep 2 2006, 06:50 PM Post #5 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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Let me clear up the stats things. Sorry about getting all mathy. The given stats are confusing, to say the least. Rather than use the mode, which is what the unit will have MOST of the time, Twikiltri prefers to use the mean. This normally would be fine. But I don't agree with his method. Most of the time, Nephenee will overshoot her Max by a longshot. Whenever there is a variable above her Max, 26, he instead uses the realistic application, and runs it down to 26. Because there is always statistically a chance that she won't cap, no matter how low, and no variable above the cap because he rounded down, the average will never portray Maxed out stats. There are three exceptions: a. When a unit starts off with a Maxed stat. b. When the chance of the stat not Maxing is so low, the average is less than 0.05 under the Max. Technically, it would rounded up, to the max. Since Nephenee overshoots her cap by 5, and still doesn't round up, it'd need to overshoot the cap by eight or ten. Which doesn't happen. c. When a growth excedes 100%. Unfortunately, in PoR all units with over 100% HP growth still don't even Max HP because of their massive caps. In other words, by your interpretation of the stats, no one in this game Maxs any stats. Which we all know not to be the case.
Why didn't you mention it before? You could have admitted that fact, rather than imply that Gatrie was in for seven more levels than he was, or you could have withheld that fact, knowing very well that I'd bring it up, and either made yourself look like you didn't know what you were talking about, or that you were attempting to deceive five judges who knew very well that he wasn't in for those seven levels. Also, I never said that Nephenee was in for more levels, I just said that the difference wasn't nearly as large as you made it out to be, and in the end wouldn't give Gatrie much more usefulness over Nephenee. One could say that Gatrie leaving you right when you need him most would take a bite out of his usefulness. His leaving also is a testement to his character. The group of people whom Greil always referred to as his family, and counted Gatrie amoung them, but when things look but, whoops, sorry, gotta go. Have fun taking on the approaching hoarde all by himself. When he rejoins your party, he only does in for some chick( who later turns out to be engaged anyways), and in fact, if specifically asked to join the party by Ike, he will refuse him. People say his Gatrie is like Sain. I say they couldn't be more different. Sain is a polite womanizing dolt, who would put his life on the line for Lyn. Gatrie is a womanizing coward of an asshole, who fights only when he thinks he can get some.
According to the current tournament statistic source, when read correctly, she'll Max often.
Axes are rare now? Makes you wonder why they are the least expensive. It would also be nice to note that of all units, Knights are the ones with the most weapons designed against them. Use magicians to take out magicians? Not a good idea. While your magicians' Resistances are well enough to negate all damage dealt to them, the enemy's Resistance is always good enough that they generally deal very little damage back. Better would be accurate, decent resistance units. I usually use Myrmidons, Pegasi, and Nephenee. Gatrie has enough resistance for killing magicians, but it's the inevitable counterattack that keeps him from doing so. it's a Gamble It may seem that Gatrie has little to fear, but what in reality, can Gatrie defend against? Swordsman, Soldiers, and Lance and Sword Knights. Bows I guess, but usually they'll go for weaker units.
All irony aside, I agree that my leaving a word out will not result in my disqualification, anymore than you consistantly spelling defense "defence" will. Mispelling two or three words will hardly comment on my professionalism.
Right back at ya.
Gatrie has about six or seven more strength than Nephenee. When given an Iron Lance, the opponent would have to have a defense of 25 in order for him to deal more damage. Most enemies don't have that defense, in fact, most units cap before or at that mark. Likewise, with a Steel Lance, it's 28, and with anything higher, Nephenee will always deal more to enemies. Does Gatire need the speed? He's not supposed to attack twice, but does he need the speed, yes. Otherwise he gets double-attacked far more often. The speed would also help him dodge the very things he is weak against.
Spelling actually. I meant to say "No, you needn't say".
Depends on your definition of "help". It doesn't really make it any better, it just stops it from being worse. I see little difference between "EVERYONE" and "EVERYONE except Generals, Tigers, and Wyverns". And even the Wyverns sometimes. Nephenee isn't brought down by her low strength, because she only starts with E in Lances. She can't use all the heavy lances that bring down her Speed until she uses a lance several times, by which time she will be strong enough to handle them.
That would be all fine and dandy, but Gatrie lacks the movement to just be able to move out of the way and then be able to bounce back. Gatrie MUST move his full movement if he hopes to even encounter any enemies and stay with the group at all. The purpose of 95% of all chapters is to progress throughout the level to reach the boss, or an escape point. Think about it, the possible objectives are Escape, Rout, Defeat Boss(Hard Mode Ashnard is the only one to rush you), Arrive, and Conquer, all of which require you to advance within the level. Then there is Defend, which requires you not to move, but in those levels there is always an incentive if you do proceed. There are only three chapters where you need to Defend, one of which Gatrie conviniently decided to leave the Chapter before, and Part Three of Chapter 17 has Victory as Survive. I hardly think Gatrie should be trained for those three instances, and if you do, he can be succesfully dumped.
Couldn't help it.
Gatrie has decent Skill, but his skill and Luck are both less than Nephenee's. I wasn't really commenting on the fact that Gatrie misses often, but the only way for him to kill one enemy is to hit twice. Nephenee, if she misses, can nail him a second time. What so special about attacking on your turn and having them attack you on theirs? Any unit can do that. Nephenee can attack on your turn, kill a guy, and then be attacked and kill that guy, too. More experience, and with twice the weapon level. At the same time, her defense is good enough that she can double as a wall when nessecary. Besides, Gatrie going up to a unit and attacking would mean the unit is in his range. Which won't happen all that much. Most of the time, He'll have to get as close to the unit as possible, and let them bounce off the man next turn. Gatrie also can't attack a unit who attacked him the turn before, without getting even farther behind.
Stick him in the thick of melee units? I'm fairly certain that the Black Knight is the only one with Warp Powder. Unless you were seriously saying to stop all your units, and have Gatrie slowly proceed to the front. And only him. Units will attack whoever they can harm the most, so in order for them to attack Gatrie, they must have no other choice. Of course, you will also need to move him far out enough that the enemies who survive are out of reach of your party, or move your party backwards. All this, of course, works off the assumption that the units aren't constantly advancing on your own. With such factors, it would be impossible, or at least horrifically tactically inefficient, to do what your suggesting.
With the exception of Marcia, all of those units are more or less useless. Shinnon is decent, but you need Rolf to rerecruit him, by which time he will be far superior to him. Ilyana is inferior to Soren and Calill in most every way. Astrid comes relatively late and weak, unable to counterattack her enemies. Marcia is a great unit, but it would be a crime to support her with Gatrie. Same with Astrid for that matter. Marcia's movement is amazing, Gatrie's is horrendous. To support them would be to take away Marcia's greatest strength. Their vast difference in movement would make it so they never got each other's bonuses.
I see two good units and one horrendous one. Tormod is better than Calill? Their end stats are almost equal, and Tormod requires too much training. It's pointless considering They are barely any different statistically. Brom is a fine unit. At the very least, he's Gatrie's equal. He's simply the alternative knight. he exchanges a little HP, and Strength, for a little more Skill and Speed. He essantially becomes less of a tank in exchange for correcting knight's weakpoints. Nothing wrong with that, some people would say it's better. Devdan sucks, yeah. No reason to support him.
Actually, since Brom will most likely Max Defense, their defense is equal. Taureneo's stats are inferior. That's a fact. But it's intentional. otherwise Resolve will never activate, and when it does, hoo boy! He's better than even Nephenee! His strong resistance also means he can stay there for a while without a chance of the geezer biting it. By the way, when you factor in the Maxes, Gatrie only beats Brom by 0.5. Hardly much.
Understatement of the century. Devdan is possibly the worst character in the game. He has all the wrong stats in all the wrong places, is completely useless, and horribly subpar. Including the likely caps, Nephenee beats Devdan by 1.0. Not much, but more. Double rebuttal coming up.
In these cases, it is a bit deceiving. Those are indeed the total stats acheived by each of the characters, but it is hardly valid for comparing the characters. Stat Totals work off the assumption that 1 HP= 1 any other stat. Not really. Ideally, HP should be divided in half when comparing stats, since the two do not even begin to compare usefulness. Think of it this way, Increasing Nephenee's HP by 5 doesn't do much. increasing any other stat by five does wonders. Why should they be considered the same? It's for this reason that Angelic Robes increase HP by 7, while the rest only increase by 2, and HP is given such a high growth, and HP is always the highest increase in promotions. In that regard, Nephenee will turn out better than Devdan by 3.2, Nephenee better than Gatrie by 2.4, and Brom better than Gatrie by 1.3, and Nephenee better than Brom by 1.1. I'm going to turn this debate around a little bit, because most of it has been me bashing Gatrie, and not enough praising Nephenee. Nephenee is the all-purpose unit. She can take down any unit without a problem, she's better suited than most for killing magic-users, she has the strength and speed to take down all melee units. And her defense is strong enough to take many hits. She has wonderful Speed, Skill, Strength, and Defense. Her Luck and Resistance is great, and her HP is passing. Really, she doesn't have any weak-points. She is one of the most well-rounded units around. She can serve on the frontlines, in the backlines, wherever, and her Wrath is marvelous, especially when combined with Vantage. Nephenee is the oldest in her family, she went off to fight to protect her family and home without being drafted or asked. Even after being captured and imprisoned, she refused to go home, and instead asked to continue to stay with Ike to fight for Crimea, at the time a lost cause. She is a simple country girl swept up in a big war; her supports suggest that she speaks with a country accent. That’s all for now, I guess I’m done. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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| Nick | Sep 3 2006, 10:15 AM Post #6 |
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Brit
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In these debates, it's agreed that we're using Twilkitri's charts, and we really should be sticking to that. Have your maths debate with Twilkitri elsewhere, but all I'm doing with maths is telling you you're not using the stats that are to be the ones used for this. I didn't imply a thing, YOU chose to interpret it that way. Of course, so would most people if it was said in a debate against them, but I wasn't implying anything with my post. I merely didn't include it in either of my posts. I was sure you'd bring it up at some point, better to wait until I had some nice juicy stuff to rip with it than tackle it at the beginning. Pedantic again, but I think you mean when things look bad. OR, one could say that Gatrie leaving gives you a prime chance to train your other units, seeing as Gatrie is still strong enough to deal with his foes when he returns. It means that you get to use him to protect fragile units in the few turns he appears for at the beginning, and then lets you train those units further when he disappears, now that they're strong enough to defeat some enemies. Then, he returns, you get a powerful knight (the best of his kind) who is still capable of defeating his enemies. Well, I'm sure you know more about his personality than me, so I won't dispute that. The other difference between them is that Gatrie is much more useful than Sain; Gatrie is at the top of his field, whereas Sain ranks after Lowen (and Marcus when it comes to usefulness), and I have to say, he's the strongest asshole I've ever come across.
After reading that, I would have expected you to go back and correct yourself. Obviously, I was wrong.
Dude, I'm ENGLISH. It's how we spell over here, don't correct ME on an Americanised word, and I won't correct Americans when they write "color" instead of the original "colour".  Straight back at you, I get an injection for life *sigh* he can cope with them, how many double attacks will it take to whittle down 29.8 defence and 57.5 HP? Infinite, if they're doing any less than 30 damage. Nephenee? She averages 1 more resistance than Gatrie. Stick with the pegasi. [size=-5]Gatire: Gatrie[/size] Well, obviously it's making it better than SOMETHING, then. Well then, it's time for me to call upon the obvious solution, that I had hoped you wouldn't make me say. Get a healer. Gatrie is capable of withstanding the attacks of all enemies for a turn, at least. So, proceed to heal him after the turn. If you're going to complain about putting a healer in the fray (which I doubt you are, I deem you too intelligent) then it's so easy just to pull him/her back with rescue. So now you're saying that Gatrie is used just for defending? Don't make me laugh. Gatrie is a tank. He is designed to go through the enemies like a plough through corn. He does so. If you're just gonna use him for defending, that's your choice. But mark my words, it's a poor one when you can have a unit like that. Now this is sheer brilliance. You realise that the only reason that you were telling me that Gatrie couldn't kill an enemy in one confrontation is that he only attacks once? So what if Nephenee misses? She can nail him a second time. NAIL HIM. Nephenee's strength is less than Gatrie's by a significant amount. So, if she can nail him a second time (implying that she'll be KOing him, nailing) then why can't the stronger Gatrie nail him the first? You misunderstood me. Gatrie attacks, gets experience for hitting, then gets attacked back, and gets the experience for the kill. It continues in this way, with Gatrie maximising exp. Well, you know, Gatrie's movement is actually only 1 worse than the other foot units, except thieves. So taking into account that you are likely to be slowed a little by stopping to attack enemies, Gatrie will easily keep up. What I meant by stick him in the thick of the fighting is to put him on the front line, ahead of your main body, so the enemies can just break their weapons on his armour. So what was all that about all the weapons that can hurt Gatrie, and axes being common? Oops, looks like they'll be attacking Gatrie fairly regularly after all. That's rubbish. Gatrie is superior to Brom any day. Knights are built to be tanks. So Brom can move faster, but he can't move FURTHER. So he gets to the same spot as Gatrie would, and takes a shorter amount of time to be defeated. I would like to point out that there is SOME distinction between "more or less useless" and "decent". I see a good unit, one that is good but still not worth using because he has a counterpart who is BETTER, and one useless one. Funny you should mention that, I remember you trying to rip into Pent because Raven had much greater HP in the FE7 debate. Funny how debates make you hippocritical, isn't it? Incorrect. Can you use Nephenee as a tank effectively? No. Bang goes your all purpose unit. Any unit without a problem? I wouldn't say that. Her defence, while being good, isn't good enough to take the hits of those all-too common axe users you were rambling on about earlier. Oh? Gatrie's is. Keep on bashing Gatrie, I bet YOU'VE not got 31 attack. Well, I did say you're a hippocrit. Resistance great? It's one better than Gatrie's, and you were trying to rip into him for having poor resistance. Somewhat foolish, methinks. Wonderful strength and defence? They're good, not wonderful. I confess that her skill and speed are rather awesome, but her luck is again only a little more than Gatrie's. You've really let me end my debate in a nice way there, thanks so much. [size=14]FANBOY![/size] |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
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| Conan O'Brien | Sep 4 2006, 10:29 AM Post #7 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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By signing up for this debate, I agreed that we're using Twilkitri's charts. I AM using Twilkitri's charts. But I'm saying that if you say that Nephenee won't Max Speed, you're going AGAINST the charts, which when read correctly, says she will Max a suprisingly high amount of times. You are reading Twilktri's chart like we used to read mode charts. If you read Twilkitri's charts literally, no one will ever Max a stat. That's not how it works, you need to compare it with the unit's stat caps. The closer it is to the cap, the more likely it will. If a stat is less than 0.5 away, the stat will more likely than not Max. She has to level up 13 out of 32 attempts to Max speed, with a 55% chance of doing so. By my math, the chance of her not doing so is abnormally low.
You said, quote, "He comes early on, in chapter 3, as a level 9 knight." and then that Nephenee came in at Chapter 11. Without mentioning the seven chapter gap, it gives the impression that Gatrie has eight levels over Nephenee, when the gap is about one. Even if you weren't intentionally deceiving anyone, it was deceiving.
Again, I think you're overplaying the 0.5 advantage Gatrie has over Brom. Reagrdless, if that's the case, how would that be any different from benching him for seven levels? Shouldn't the player get the choice of whether they want to use Gatrie those levels? And for first time players, how are they supposed to know that Gatrie is going to leave?
What? I was just talking about his personality. And again, you're overplaying the gap between him and Brom.
I wasn't quoting that section, I was quoting:
Nothing about axes. You remembered them in the later paragraph, but not this one. I did the favor of reminding you.
Really? My bad. Each to his own.
Is this some other British thing?  But I was right. Nephenee will Max Skill majority of time. If you didn't believe me, you could have rounded it up, and gotten the Max. 
If they have over 26 Magic power? Less than two.
But Nephenee won't be double-attacked by them. Gatrie will. That makes him far more suceptible. Gatrie's Avoid takes a serious dive because of his low Speed, he won't be dodging them. Nephenee's Avoid is through the roof.
Huh?
Not by much.
More than one Sage and don't expect him to last the turn. Besides, if you're answer to Gatrie's weaknesses is to just heal him, then the answer to ALL of Nephenee's problem is to give her her own little Priest to follow her around. Besides, Gatrie's immense health is acquired by level-ups mostly. In lower levels, with his Resistance of zero or a little more, he might not last that turn.
“Plough” wouldn’t be the best word for what Gatrie does. We’ve agreed most of Gatrie’s kills come from two turns of attack. In order for him to take down a large group, he’d have to be attacked twice by the same group, or have a group filled with weak units, in which even Nephenee could “plough through them”. That only really happens when you’re defending. Units go for who they damage the most. Therefore, when given the chance they won’t go for Gatrie, but instead for someone else. As such, 80% of Gatrie’s kills will come from your turn. Nephenee is designed to kill in one turn through double attacks.
By "nail him a second time", I meant the next turn. "Nail him a second time" means Nephenee already nailed him once. Since I said she missed once, that would mean she would only have one chance to hit him. Logically, to nail him a second time, that would need a second attack. I can see where you got confused, although IMO the word "nail" doesn't imply a OHKO, or any KO for that matter. Both Gatrie and Nephenee will kill in two hits. Nephenee's Speed allows those two hits to happen in the same turn. Gatrie's doesn't. If Nephenee misses, she has to take another turn. So does Gatrie. If she misses twice, she can still take care of it in two turns. Gatrie would need four. Consistantly, Nephenee will kill more foes.
Most foes won't attack Gatrie back, unless given no choice. Maximising(British?) experience would be attacking a unit, killing it, and then being attacked by a unit and killing that one. If you're lucky, another will take it's place. That's what Nephenee does.
Keep up, that's possible. But on the front lines, that's not so possible. That'd require him to move the same amount as the rest of the troops, whether he travels farther somehow, or the front line moves slower. And again, when given the chance, they don't attack Gatrie.
In your own words, you claimed to send Gatrie with an Iron Sword, and "You just stick him in the thick of some melee units (with that old Iron Sword) and watch their futile attacks rebound off his armour." All those weapons wouldn't "rebound of his armor", would they? I assumed you weren't stupid enough to send Gatrie into the thick of battle where Armor-weapons, magic, and axes lurked, especially since you already said that in those cases you'd simply send someone else.
Since Gatrie will be double attacked more often than Brom, has the same defense and less resistance, and his HP is hardly any bigger, it's safe to say Brom would probably survive longer. Brom has all the same weaknesses as Gatrie, but he's beter equipped to take on all of them except for the movement thing. The differences in their stats are minimal, they are practically the same unit. To say Gatrie is far superior because his stats are 0.5 less or because his Strength and HP is a little higher, is more opinion than fact. Brom gets the job done.
Shinnon is statistically a decent unit. But because you need to train Rolf in order to recruit him, and Rolf is superior, he's more or less useless.
That's kinda vague, but I'm assuming Brom is the one who has the better counterpart, Devdan the useless one, and Calill the good one. Again, overstressing the difference between Gatrie and Brom.
Now I used three dictionaries, online and otherwise, and I can't find any reference to a British spelling of "hypocritical" as "hippocritical". But it's such a blatant misspelling, it's got to be the case. Calling someone a hypocrite is one of the most pointless things to do. Even if they are a hypocrite, does it make them wrong? Not nessecarily. You could have debated what I said rather than my own beliefs, instead of leaving them unanswered. I will instead take your silence on the matter to mean you do not disagree with it. In which case, of course, Gatrie loses his stat total over Brom and Nephenee, amking him the inferior unit. In most cases of hypocracy, there is a difference. The difference of course being that when counting HP in half, Raven still beats Pent in Total stats. There was little point in brining it up there and then.
Sure you can use her as a tank, albeit a medium sized one. Her HP and Defense are high enough that she would take little damage, and her Speed gives her tremendous Avoid making it rare for attacks to connect. And she has enough Strength to kill most enemies with double hits. And in the rare case that many attacks do connect, Wrath will begin to take down most enemies in one hit. Give her Vantage, and it will be the scariest thing you've ever seen. About time you brought up the axe users. Nephenee's Avoid is a great deal larger than Gatrie's subpar one, so the threat of axes is less pronounced, especially since even with the Weapon Triangle advantage, axes are very inaccurate. Her Speed is also great enough that she'll double attack the vast majority of the axe users in the game. Gatrie not only gets double-attacked, his hit rate and dodge rate are signifigantly lower than Nephenee's. He could have the same axe user plugging holes in his armor for three turns.
...Neither does Gatrie. He caps at 29.
I've never said Gatrie had bad resistance. In fact, I specifically said, "Gatrie has enough resistance for killing magicians." I only said that magicians pose a huge threat to Gatrie because: a. His starting resistance is nonexistant, and his resistance is gained in a slow process. The same with his health. Therefore in early levels, magic will be the bane of Gatrie. b. Gatrie's low speed is all good and well with melee units, but a magic unit double attacking him deals considerable damage. c. His dodge rate is especially low. Likewise, I didn't say that Gatrie had bad Luck, just that Nephenee's was good. Gatrie's is good too. Nephenee's Strength and Defense are excellent, it just doesn't seem like it when you compare her to Gatrie. The point is not to look at individual stats. Nephenee's well-roundedness is her forte. All of her stats are at least good, she doesn't have any clear cut weak points. Even her less than normal HP plays to her advantage. Fanboy? Let's face it, why would anyone settle for a huge, sweaty jerk like Gatrie when insetad they could use a good-hearted and attractive girl like Nephenee. Personality wise, Nephenee is the clear winner. And I'd rather be a fanboy than some guy who insists on the superiority of a character they've never used. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 4 2006, 03:38 PM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Debate closed. Judges send their votes to me, please. |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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2:50 AM Nov 25
