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| Andras vs Hollie | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 31 2006, 06:29 PM (195 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Aug 31 2006, 06:29 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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The rules should be known by now. Three posts each. Andras will start this one off. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Andras | Sep 1 2006, 09:23 PM Post #2 |
Will I ever change this av/sig combo?
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Tormod vs. Kieran? Looks to be fun. Okay, let's start this off like usual... stat comparison!
Let's see. Kieran wins in HP, STR, SKL, and DEF, while Tormod takes MAG, SPD, LUK, RES, and total stats. Considering we're talking about a physical unit vs. a magic unit, this split isn't too surprising. Kieran's HP victory is pretty solid with a 9.2 difference, but that's to be expected when comparing a physical unit to a magical unit. Similarly, Kieran kills Tormod in STR while Tormod massacres Kieran in MAG, but to have the comparisons make more sense we'll set Tormod's magic against Kieran's strength. When you do this, Tormod gets an advantage in both the main attack category AND the secondary attack category. While Tormod's victory in the main attack category is fairly negligible at .1, winning a 3.4 battle in the secondary attack stat is noticable, especially since Tormod's relatively high strength allows him to use heavier tomes (unlike Soren) and, if you deem it necessary, use knives upon promotion. Meanwhile, Kieran's going to have a real hard time using any magical weapons with much effect. Kieran actually beats Tormod in skill by a point, but the point is quite moot because magic is much more accurate than any of the axes, as well as most of the other weapons Kieran can use. Critical will be about the same either way, and neither of their base battle skills are activated by a skill percentage, either. Tormod gets a minor win in SPD with .6. Not much to say about that, they'll perform pretty equally in areas affected by this stat, though Tormod will be slightly better. Tormod gets a noticeable win of 4.4 in LUK meaning some more evade, among other things, which is always good. Like with STR and MAG, Kieran wins in DEF handedly and Tormod wins in RES handedly, but to make for better comparisons, we'll switch again. Here, in both primary and secondary defensive capabilities, Tormod wins, and this time more noticeably at 2.4 and 1.9. Battle skill-wise, Tormod completely and utterly rapes Kieran. Gamble is only really worthwhile with a Killer Axe, which is neither common nor high enough usage for the skill to be near worth it. Meanwhile, Tormod has celerity, one of the best non-master skills. It pretty much allows Tormod to nearly become a magic-wielding cavalry equivalent, extremely useful considering there really isn't a mounted offensive magic user in this game. Now, considering that there are 6 knight/paladins and 5 mage/sages, another thing we should look at is how Tormod and Kieran match compared to all the others in their respective classes. First, Tormod and the mages:
Well, now. Though it may not look like it at first, with Tormod only being the top in HP and SPD, but it becomes quite apparent when looking deeper into the stats that Tormod is the most dominant sage in Path of Radiance. First to note, Tormod wins handedly in survivability. While not quite as good as either Soren and Ilyana in resistance, he easily makes up for it by wiping them in defense. The reverse for Calill and Bastian, having comparable defense but better resistance. Tormod also has the best average HP, which always helps. Now when you look at the offensive capabilities, again, Tormod is the winner. While Soren beats him in magic, he loses because of his strength, which forces him to either sacrifice using the heavier tomes to keep his speed or giving up his speed in order to use the better tomes. Basically, this means that Tormod will either do more damage because he can wield better tomes, or do more damage because he can double more often. Ilyana and Bastian are undercut because they're both quite slow. Calill's comparable, but Tormod has a slight edge. Next, with the highest average speed and pretty good luck, Tormod is the best evader, though Calill comes quite close again. Ilyana and Bastian have too little speed, Soren too little strength/constitution. The only major thing Tormod doesn't win is accuracy, but the point isn't worth noting. Thanks to magic's accuracy Tormod'll hit most of the time anyway. Plus, his battle skill doesn't need skill to activate. Speaking of battle skills, Tormod gets a win here as well. Bastian's Corrosion is completely worthless, since you should kill the enemy far before weapon uses run out. Ilyana's Shade seems good, but doesn't work out as well as advertised. Calill's Nihil is not bad, but requires the enemy to have a battle skill to be useful, and while Soren's Adept is a good battle skill, it doesn't activate at any dependable rate until he's high-leveled. Tormod, however, will always find use in Celerity, as it's always on and it helps him move around the map much faster than anyone else who isn't mounted or flying. In short, with victories in Attack, Defense, Evasion, and Battle Skills, it's easy to see why Tormod's the best Mage/Sage. Now, Kieran and the paladins:
Well, to start, Kieran manages to be the top in... nothing. Not the best sign, but we'll continue on. First up, survivability. Well, Kieran manages to lose to Oscar, Makalov, and Geoffrey. Oscar has better resistance while having near-equal HP and defense, Makalov, while having lower resistance, has better HP and defense, and Geoffrey only loses .4 in HP to Kieran while beating him in defense and resistance. Next, attack power. Kieran does better in this category, but Makalov is still the better choice, with minutely better strength, but with better speed. Evasion rates? Kieran only beats Geoffrey here. Titania is better here thanks to her high luck, and Oscar, Astrid and Makalov have both better speed and luck. Accuracy? Still no, with Astrid, Oscar, and Titania winning here over Kieran. Kieran being stuck with lower accuracy axes until promotion doesn't help much either. Battle Skills? While Oscar doesn't come with a skill and Makalov's Tempest is pretty useless, the others have better skills. Titania's Counter, though it doesn't activate very often, still is useful when it does, while with Gamble you give up quite a lot of accuracy for, most of the time, a minute bit of critical. And remember, the RN for accuracy has to hit before the critical RN does. Astrid and Geoffrey's Paragon rapes, and I don't think I need to explain why. Even in weapon choice, there are other options for axe-wielding cavalry, since the Oifaye-archetype in this game, Titania, just happens to be a Paladin that uses axes as her primary weapon as well. Being an Oifaye, she has earlier joining time and better weapon levels as well. In the end, no matter where you look at, there always seems to be an option that can offer a superior replacement. That's all for now. |
 [size=1]Formerly known as Yurius. Banner & Avvy by Tiltyu. <3[/size] | |
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| +Hollie | Sep 3 2006, 05:35 AM Post #3 |
Resident Brit
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Well, this should be
Can't argue with you there.
Knives vs Staves is a poor promotion choice. Even with Tormod's strength, which is good for a magic user, he'll be doing little damage. Better to stick with magic.
Whilst the point about magical weapons is an unargueable one, it really doesn't make much difference to Kieran. Off the top of my head, the only magic-using weapons I can think of are the Bolt Axe, Runesword, Sonic Sword and Flame Lance. The problem is, none of the melee units can really use these weapons effectively. Mist and Elinicia would wield the swords well, true, but they both get slowed down by suffering from low STR. Nearly all the other melee units have terrible, or fairly poor, magic, which means they're not really suited for the magic weapons. True, Kieran can't use them, but neither can many others. Axes fit his high STR just nicely, however, and the addition of another weapon after promotion means he can manipulate the triangle.
Can't really argue there.
Their speed rounds to 25 for them both, however, whilst Kieran won't lose speed from any axes, Tormod looses speed from Meteor, Bolting and Rexbolt.
Ah yes, but even though Tormod has this +2 to his movement, Kieran will STILL beats him in that area. Kieran also has the Move-Attack-Move advantages of mounted units, whereas Tormod does not. Since I agreed with your points about the mages, I'll just skip that part. 
Whilst Kieran wins in nothing, neither does he have the lowest of any one stat. The same cannot be said of Tormod, however.
But Kieran beats Titania and Astrid, and his defensive abilities are infinately better than Makalov's and Geoffrey's for the time when you don't have them. Oscar is really the only competition for Kieran in this category, but Kieran can see what he's hitting thanks to not having his eyes shut all the time, which is a plus. 
His speed is better by... 1.3. OHNOES!  Makalov beats him in strength by .1, but when you consider that your basic Iron Axe has 3 more might than an Iron Sword, Kieran's onto a winner here. After promotion, Makalov could use axes, but he'd still only beat him by .1, an insignificant victory.
The highest win in speed is Astrid with a 1.4 victory. The other paladins fare slightly better in luck, Titania beating Kieran by a whopping 4.8. Kieran doesn't need good evade anyway, with his high HP, defense and resistance.
Kieran, however, does beat two of his fellow Paladins, which is more than can be said for Tormod. 
Gamble is a pretty crap skill, yeah, but at least he doesn't need that to be good. I bet everyone would be alot less willing to train Astrid if she didn't come with Paragon, now wouldn't they?
Their are other choices in axe-wielding cavalry, but that's no reason not to use Kieran. He starts off with solid base stats, comes as a level 12 Axe Knight, meaning you don't have to baby him and his tanking skills start off good and continue that way.
I disagree. Kieran's fantastic strength and his starting weapon of the axe means he'll come top in strength. By the time you get to the final chapter, he should be one of the few high weapon level axe users you have, and he'll be dealing good damage. Titania fails in strength rather badly to Kieran, and the other heavy-hitting axe user, Boyd, doesn't have the mounted advantages. There is Haar, I suppose, but he's weak to wind magic, a weakness Kieran doesn't have. He comes very late, too. Makalov has better stats than Kieran, but arrives later in the game at a lower level. The same can be said of Astrid, and it will take her a couple of chapters to catch up with the rest of your party even with Paragon. Geoffrey, whilst having the plus of being a pre-promote, comes later, and looses the weapon triangle maniplulation Kieran has. Kieran could quite easily equal in level to Geoffrey at that point. Titania and Oscar come earlier, and have stats similar to Kieran, but actually, that's a good thing. Oscar will be only a few levels higher at most compared to Kieran, and the three actually work rather well together. They're the only mounted units you have until you gain the low-level Astrid a few chapters later. Oscar-Kieran-Titania makes a good team for nuking the enemy units, or just for sitting their and taking damage. Kieran supports with Oscar too, providing a boost. Speaking of supports, both Tormod and Kieran are unfortunate in the fact that they only really have one good support each. Kieran has Oscar, Tormod has Calil. Now, whereas Kieran has plenty of time to support with Oscar and reap the rewards, Tormod can only enjoy Calil A support for three chapters. He's also hampered by the fact that Calil has a choice of Geoffrey and Nephenee as well as himself. That's it for the moment. I look forward to your reply. |
Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch.  Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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| Andras | Sep 4 2006, 03:53 PM Post #4 |
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Will I ever change this av/sig combo?
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I said it was an option, not particularly a recommendation. But versatility is always helpful.
Within the paladins alone, Oscar, Geoffrey and Astrid can all wield magic weapons reasonably well. Their are also some other good choices, like Jill and a few others, that can wield magic weapons effectively. Also, Tormod has full magic triangle manipulation from the beginning. 
If you're using Meteor or Bolting, speed is less of a problem, since those spells have a range of 3-10 and things such as evasion and counterattacks shouldn't be a problem. On Rexbolt, he's still the fastest out of all people capable of using it. At least he has a S-level weapon that he can use without having to work too relatively hard on his weapon levels.
Whilst Tormod loses in a category, he also has the highest in two stats. The same cannot be said of Kieran, however.
Beating Titania and Astrid's not much of an accomplishment since female characters in Fire Emblem are hardly ever tanks. And while Kieran may be better before they come, he won't after they become a main part of your party. As for Oscar... considering Oscar has better accuracy, then Kieran's pathetic for missing more often than a blind guy. Good job, Kieran. 
That 1.3 can make a difference when considering double attacks, if they have comparable attack strength.
First of all, Kieran doesn't have that great of a resistance, with him only beating Makalov, so when mages come around, he's worse off compared to the other paladins. Secondly, when a unit like Oscar has comparable defensive capabilities and evades more, why not use him as a tank instead of Kieran?
Doesn't really matter when Tormod almost always has 100% accuracy anyway. You can't go higher than 100% accuracy in this game.
The keyword there is if. She does come with Paragon, every time. If you take it off her, it's not a flaw of the character, it's you being an idiot. Utilize what is given to you. You know, like the proverb with the life, lemons and lemonade?
Kieran's not particularly special here, as most of the paladins start out with excellent base stats save for Astrid, who makes up for it with the Paragon skill. Oscar doesn't need babysitting since he's in there from the beginning and does well against most of the enemies there. Titania's an Oifaye, no need to explain further. Makalov comes lower leveled slightly later, but manages to have slightly better tanking base stats despite starting at Lv. 10 instead of Lv. 12. Astrid you only have to babysit for a little while before Paragon skyrockets her into one of the better elements on your team. Geoffrey comes solid and with great tanking skills, plus he's on par with most of your team and enemies, and he has Paragon.
Though Haar does have a weakness to wind magic, it's counterbalanced by the fact that wind is the weakest magic in the game, and Haar has much better HP (he nearly starts out with as much Kieran averages), slightly better strength, and comparable resistance.
The thing is, unlike any other Fire Emblem before it (at least as far as I know), Path of Radiance has the wonderful invention called bonus experience. Even if a unit is underleveled when its introduced, you can usually pump up a unit that starts off weak but ends up stronger in the end thanks to this. As for Geoffrey, while Kieran can easily be equal in level to Geoffrey, Geoffrey can quickly outpace him thanks to the fact that he has Paragon.
Oscar also has Ike, so Kieran's support can also choose another character for A. While Tormod may only be able to enjoy Calill for a relatively small time, that time is when Tormod and Calill can shine the most, Twisted Tower and all those Laguz? Thanks to magic's benefits against Laguz, those two can unleash tremendous amounts of destructive force. That's it for this post. |
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[size=1]Formerly known as Yurius. Banner & Avvy by Tiltyu. <3[/size] | |
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| +Hollie | Sep 7 2006, 03:48 PM Post #5 |
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Resident Brit
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Sorry for the delay. I'll try and post more often <<;
Versatility is a null point if there's only one useful option. :richie:
Good for them. Whilst they're busy struggling with the Flame Lances and such, Kieran can just go kill everyone with an Iron Axe.
As such, he's a little bitch to level up as far as weapon levels go.
Without having to work too hard on his weapon levels... doesn't he start with a D in Thunder? You'd have to use that pretty much exclusively to get him to S rank.
Whichever way you look at it, Kieran still has more movement and can move after attacking, whilst Tormod cannot. In this respect, Tormod is better than his fellow mages, but inferior to Kieran.
He looses by .1 in strength, and his stats areby no means BAD. Besides, in a game where all the paladins are so awesome, why would you discard one in favour of another?
Regardless how expected it is, he still beats them. This means if you want a hard hitting tank, you'll go for Kieran over Titania.
Why push Kieran out of a role he fills so nicely?  Not to say that Geoffrey and Makalov are bad, just that they might not become a main member of your party.
I LOVE how you make it sound like .1 is such a huge difference it makes Kieran vastly inferior. Lawl, it doesn't even effect how they round.
Not really very often, when you think about it. Certainly not often enough for auto-superiority.
My bad, 'acceptable' was supposed to come in before resistance.
Why not make use of that support and use them BOTH?
Fair point, but it's not like Kieran's skill is ultra-ohnoes-low.
You missed my point entirely. My point was, Kieran doesn't need a skill to make him good. His stats do that for him.
That's a point, I guess.
Er, Kieran doesn't need baby-sitting either. Makalov is the one who needs baby-sitting. Isn't this a blow to your 'MAKALOV PWNZ KIERAN IN STATS LAWLZ KIERAN SUX' attitude? :richie:
The reason he gets slightly better stats is because he starts out lower. Why do the other paladins surpass Titania even though her growths are godly?
4 or 5 chapters, possible more, is quite alot of babysitting. And IMO, ALL the paladins are the better elements of your team.
But quite a bit later, letting the other paladins dominate your team with their uber usefullness movement and stats. Then he gets to join in the fun.
That's great. Use them both.
Lawl, bonus experience is nowhere near as good as you've just made it out to be. Firstly, with a few exceptions, alot of the time you only have small amounts of bonus experience to give. And the higher leveled your characters get, the more they require.
I don't know, but I always found Kieran to be far more useful than Geoffrey. Though that may be due to the fact that I get blessed with axe-users. Lawl @ Lvl 19/0 Boyd with 13 defense.
Which means Kieran is pretty much certain of a B at least Kieran and Oscar's movement and stats also compliment each other very well. I'd rather have Ike support with someone who doesn't get miles ahead of him within a couple of turns.
Oh great, one chapter. Where was that A support when you needed it in all the previous ones? Now, talking about usefullness, that's what we're out to prove, no? So I must ask. . . why are you throwing the other paladins at Kieran? Shouldn't you be trying to prove Tormod's usefulness? As I see it, the reason you're not doing that is quite simple: Kieran effectively destroys Tormod in usefulness. I don't really know what you hoped to gain by shwoing that Makalov 20/20 > Kieran 20/20. I know that. EVERYONE knows that, because, quite simply, paldins rape in this game. The problem with Tormod is how damned difficult it is to train him. He starts off as a Level 7 Mage, and you get him after Chapter 15, mirite? Wait a second. Isn't that... 5 levels below Kieran, several chapters AFTER he joins? Tormod is, quite frankly, a pain in the ass to get up to a moderate level. Don't you even THINK that he might be doubling enemies, except for the horribly slow ones like Knights. For a while, you WILL be sacrificing experience perfectly useable by the other members of your group to get Tormod to a point where you can be a little bit more flexible with him. Even after that, he'll be frail for a while, so don't even think about letting him near those heavy tomes at least until promotion. Kieran, on the other hand, requires no baby-sitting. After you release him from prison, he jumps right into your party and starts hacking away. He could quite easily gain 1 level a chapter without you putting in any effort at all. Hell, I've usually promoted Kieran by the time I get Tormod. That's it for the mo. |
Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch. Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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| Sentenal | Sep 11 2006, 06:23 PM Post #6 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Andras gets a DQ. Holly advances. |
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9:16 PM Nov 24
