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Kamaitachi vs Sentenal
Topic Started: Aug 31 2006, 06:31 PM (268 Views)
+Ema Skye
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The rules should be known by now.

Three posts each.

Kamaitachi will start this one.
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH

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Kamaitachi
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Janaff turns into a bird. Can Jill do that?

Ah yes, my ridiculously circuitous plan is now one third complete.
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HØ¿¿¥ says:
Pure genius.
HØ¿¿¥ says:
Well. 72% genius, 28% alcohol.

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Sentenal
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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But Jill bashes infinite face.

She rides a giant dragon. Does Janaff? Also, only a furry would like Janaff. A furry into birds. And furries are the type of people you look at, and just go "Why!?" Jill, however, is hot. And has pink armor. Hot chick, pink armor, flying dragon? How can you lose?

Jill can't turn into a bird, but she comes with a Laguz Guard. And on a chapter full of Laguz-Birdies. Whose faces she proceeds to bash.
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Kamaitachi
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Caps:
Jill: Janaff:
HP: 47.6 / 54.6
Str: 24.9 / 19.6
Mag: 10.3 / 6.2
Skl: 24.9 / 23.4
Spd: 24.6 / 24.8
Def: 23.7 / 14.6
Res: 12.3 / 13.0
Luk: 13.7 / 20.8

Growths:
Jill: Janaff:
HP: 60% / 130%
Str: 40% / 55%
Mag: 30% / 10%
Skl: 45% / 70%
Spd: 45% / 65%
Def: 35% / 30%
Res: 30% / 40%
Luk: 25% / 40%

I suppose a fair point to argue is that a Laguz is virtually a pre-promote, as Janaff really only has 12 levels to gain. Jill has a good 32 levels to gain, and with bonus exp being such a handy dandy doodad in FE9, she's not that hard to work with. She's a great unit, I won't lie, and it is nice to have a hot chick in pink armor riding around on a massive lizard causing chaos wherever she goes. Look at the aforementioned average stats and growths, Janaff only significantly wins in HP and Luck, whereas Jill meets him or is slightly above him in the rest (Save defense where she is almost 10 points better). Janaff's growths are a tidbit ridiculous too. 130% HP growth? Who needs more than a 100%?

Her wyvern gives her higher moment, is probably a point you'd want to make, allowing her to cover greater distances and allow for more strategic versatility. You'd probably also mention that as a laguz, when untransformed Janaff is, for all intents and purposes, useless. Jill may not evade as well, but she'll take hits far better than Janaff. That's what armor is for after all, and it's more effective than feathers when it comes to taking swords.

I suppose another point you briefly mentioned was Jill's Laguzguard. While equipping Janaff with a Beorcguard could come in pretty useful, it's probably nicer to see it on one of the beast units like Lethe, so that they can run around virtually undaunted by Beorcs. Jill with a full guard makes things a bit easier too, and unlike Janaff, you'd see Jill pull a hit and run on units like archers and not have to worry as much about retaliation. Janaff would only be able to fly up and attack, then sit there as he gets peppered with arrows, right?

Jill comes along much earlier in the game, and is quite useful from the get go, being a generally better flying unit than Marcia. Janaff comes along later and has the equally useful Ulki, so it's much more likely that a player would pick up Jill and let Janaff sit on the back of the roster.

Supports wise, Jill supports with Mist, Haar and Lethe, right? Mist is a mobile healer who can keep up with her, Haar is a Wyvern Lord Pre-Promote who can cause much rampant destruction, and Lethe, when used properly, can be hell on wheels. Janaff can pair up with Oscar, Shinon and Lucia. Now, Oscar is a decent unit that can be easily outclassed by one of the numerous other paladins, like Titania, Kieran and Makalov. Shinon comes way too late in the game, and if you've been using Rolf, or bothered with Bows for one of your paladins or Boyd, then you've already got a more useful archer, and Lucia, who's just plain craptastic to add to the history of most pre-promote swordmasters. Janaff has pretty crappy supports. Even his counterpart Ulki, has better ones in Boyd, Rhys and Mordecai.

As for skills, Stun vs Cancel, Stun appears to be the better offensive one, seeing as it can render enemies immobile (not incapable of attack or defending, mind you, just incapable of movement) and has many useful strategic possibilities once activated. Cancel is an individual skill, focusing on the single unit, and thus is not so good for a full scale battle, like many of the ones you face in Fire Emblem.

So, yes, I have to agree with your statement currently that Jill bashes much face.
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HØ¿¿¥ says:
Pure genius.
HØ¿¿¥ says:
Well. 72% genius, 28% alcohol.

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Sentenal
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I suppose a fair point to argue is that a Laguz is virtually a pre-promote, as Janaff really only has 12 levels to gain. Jill has a good 32 levels to gain, and with bonus exp being such a handy dandy doodad in FE9, she's not that hard to work with. She's a great unit, I won't lie, and it is nice to have a hot chick in pink armor riding around on a massive lizard causing chaos wherever she goes. Look at the aforementioned average stats and growths, Janaff only significantly wins in HP and Luck, whereas Jill meets him or is slightly above him in the rest (Save defense where she is almost 10 points better). Janaff's growths are a tidbit ridiculous too. 130% HP growth? Who needs more than a 100%?

Slightly above...? Nah.

Jill wins by 5.3 in STR. Add this onto that Janaff is basically locked into the same weapon the entire game, while Jill can use a wide variety of Lances and Axes.

Mag... Eh, not so important for either character, though Jill still wins.

SKL? Jill wins again, although only by 1.5.

SPD they are practically the same, Janaff winning barely by .2. Both will double attack practically the same amount of enemies. But notice, Jill will double attack more, plus cause more damage due to superior STR, and the ability to use stronger weapons.

In DEF, Jill absoluletly crushes Janaff. She wins by 9.1. She is incredible in DEF. Janaff will take lots more damage than Jill will. And Janaff's HP advantage is doesn't mean as much will Jill has that much more DEF that he.

In RES, they are close again. Janaff only wins by .7. That is all fine and good for Janaff, but 12.3 RES for a Wyvern?

Luk, I'll give you that one, Janaff wins by alot. But then again, Jill doesn't rely on dodging near as much as Janaff, due to her high DEF.

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Her wyvern gives her higher moment, is probably a point you'd want to make, allowing her to cover greater distances and allow for more strategic versatility. You'd probably also mention that as a laguz, when untransformed Janaff is, for all intents and purposes, useless. Jill may not evade as well, but she'll take hits far better than Janaff. That's what armor is for after all, and it's more effective than feathers when it comes to taking swords.

All true. And don't forget taking out lances, with Jill's sexy Axes she can get.

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I suppose another point you briefly mentioned was Jill's Laguzguard. While equipping Janaff with a Beorcguard could come in pretty useful, it's probably nicer to see it on one of the beast units like Lethe, so that they can run around virtually undaunted by Beorcs. Jill with a full guard makes things a bit easier too, and unlike Janaff, you'd see Jill pull a hit and run on units like archers and not have to worry as much about retaliation. Janaff would only be able to fly up and attack, then sit there as he gets peppered with arrows, right?

Correct. The Full Guard erases Jill's main weakness, archers. And, she has that broken mounted ability, being able to attack and run away.

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Jill comes along much earlier in the game, and is quite useful from the get go, being a generally better flying unit than Marcia. Janaff comes along later and has the equally useful Ulki, so it's much more likely that a player would pick up Jill and let Janaff sit on the back of the roster.

Janaff comes as an unneeded Laguz, correct.

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Supports wise, Jill supports with Mist, Haar and Lethe, right? Mist is a mobile healer who can keep up with her, Haar is a Wyvern Lord Pre-Promote who can cause much rampant destruction, and Lethe, when used properly, can be hell on wheels. Janaff can pair up with Oscar, Shinon and Lucia. Now, Oscar is a decent unit that can be easily outclassed by one of the numerous other paladins, like Titania, Kieran and Makalov. Shinon comes way too late in the game, and if you've been using Rolf, or bothered with Bows for one of your paladins or Boyd, then you've already got a more useful archer, and Lucia, who's just plain craptastic to add to the history of most pre-promote swordmasters. Janaff has pretty crappy supports. Even his counterpart Ulki, has better ones in Boyd, Rhys and Mordecai.

You seem to be going out of your way to make my arguements! Haar, is an insane Wyvern Lord. Support Jill and Haar, and they are unstopable. Supporting her with the high MOV Lethe can help as well. But, as you pointed out, Jill dominates Janaff in supports.

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As for skills, Stun vs Cancel, Stun appears to be the better offensive one, seeing as it can render enemies immobile (not incapable of attack or defending, mind you, just incapable of movement) and has many useful strategic possibilities once activated. Cancel is an individual skill, focusing on the single unit, and thus is not so good for a full scale battle, like many of the ones you face in Fire Emblem.

True again. Jill has the ability to make an enemy unit not move their next round. If that activates on an especially strong unit, all the better.

But, as you have pointed out yourself, Jill dominates Janaff. Completely.
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Kamaitachi
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And now for the hail mary that I built my entire strategy upon. ^_^

So basically, in the course of our arguement, we've proved how much more powerful and possibly useful the character of Jill is. However, we've been working with Janaff's untransformed stats.

Completely at a loss for how to find them, I just played around with the stat caps and took the difference.

Transformed Janaff goes from:

Str: 26 --> 32 for a +6 to strength
Skl: 35 --> 40 for a +5 to skill
Spd: 36 --> 39 for a +3 to speed
Def: 26 --> 35 for a +9 to defense
Res: 26 --> 30 for a+4 to resist.

Applying those net changes to his averages,

Str: 19.6 +6 = 25.6
Skl: 23.4 +5 = 28.4
Spd: 24.8 +3 = 27.8
Def: 14.6 +9 = 23.6
Res: 13.0 +4 = 17.0

So...now we're comparing transformed Janaff to Jill.
Jill's 24.9 to Janaff's 25.6? Janaff takes this one, even if just barely.
Skill? Looks like Janaff just swiped that out from under her.
Speed? Janaff won by a measly .2 last time, but now he's definately got it in the bag.
That crushing defense that Jill had an advantage of? Now it's 23.7 versus 23.6 Jill still wins, yes, but it's not nearly as crushing as an advantage as before.
Resistance? Janaff now trumps her again.
Atop that, his movement now rivals Jill's. Surely, he cannot do a move-hit-move like Jill, which is her main strength over him (and most other units to boot), but now he can cover just as much distance as her.

Janaff is best suited for rushing into frontlines early before he de-transforms and you have to take care of him. However, a demi band, at the lowering of stats, can counter for that, though equipping a full guard on Janaff might just be as good a cause as using it on Jill, eliminating his weakness to bows (Though I'm unsure if it takes out laguzslayer advantages?)

Laguz stones pop up once in awhile, so once Janaff has untransformed and safely moved away, what's to stop you from healing him and popping him back into beast form on the same turn? Janaff back into the fray!

Due to his offensive nature, if given the skill cancel, he'll still have a decent chance of activating it and taking 0 damage. So you don't simply have to rely on dodge with him, because if the cancel skill comes along and starts working properly, then Janaff can float around the front lines dishing out damage. Cancel is reminiscent of the "Big Guard" skill that Generals have, so its awfully strange seeing it on a "little bird" but it's no less effective ^_^

Despite being locked into a single weapon, Janaff's beak has no clear disadvantages. Jill, if she wants to maintain effectiveness, will often have to juggle between her lances and axes or else get potentially torn apart by another sword or axe. Janaff is so cool, he doesn't even need a beorc made weapon to dish out damage. He hits them with his face! One of Sentenal's favourite qualities seems to be manliness, and what's more manly than going in with the weapons you were born with and smashing into everything you see?

Now, even though we've proved earlier that Jill is quite a powerful unit, (casting aside any thoughts of being rng raped), we have to note that there is one vital flaw in her.

Basically, once a character joins you, they don't really leave until they die. Exceptions being Shinon and Gatrie who leave your party for periods of time. Rarely do you see an ally returning to the enemy side. In Chapter 20, Defending Talrega, the boss is Jill's father Shiharam.

If you have Jill talk to Shiharam (Which I did on my first play through, thinking I could recruit him), Jill turns back into an enemy and fights you! What was the point in training her if she's capable of just turning on you like that? I read later, that you can bring her back if someone has an A support with her...but it's still pretty ridiculous that Jill can continue to be a turncoat. Most wyverns in games come from the enemy country, but they always stay on your team. Jill has the option of returning to her father, and then all your hard work and money spent on raising her will bite you in the ass. If you lose Jill here, how will you recruit Haar later? Blam. You've just lost your air force. While all characters are a liability because they can die, Jill is a liability because she can turn on you. That makes me incredibly unhappy.

I prefer loyal characters, like Janaff, who even if they don't like what they're doing, will follow orders. Janaff takes orders from Tibarn and Ike, who are at least, at the end, on the same side. You can always count on Janaff working for you and following through on your orders. Think he's gonna listen to Naesala? No. Is Ashnard going to be able to convince him to fight for Daein? No. Janaff is loyal through and through. Go Janaff.
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HØ¿¿¥ says:
Pure genius.
HØ¿¿¥ says:
Well. 72% genius, 28% alcohol.

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Sentenal
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So...now we're comparing transformed Janaff to Jill.
Jill's 24.9 to Janaff's 25.6? Janaff takes this one, even if just barely.
Skill? Looks like Janaff just swiped that out from under her.
Speed? Janaff won by a measly .2 last time, but now he's definately got it in the bag.
That crushing defense that Jill had an advantage of? Now it's 23.7 versus 23.6 Jill still wins, yes, but it's not nearly as crushing as an advantage as before.
Resistance? Janaff now trumps her again.
Atop that, his movement now rivals Jill's. Surely, he cannot do a move-hit-move like Jill, which is her main strength over him (and most other units to boot), but now he can cover just as much distance as her.

Yes, we all know Laguz get a defense bonus. Instead of countering all these, let me make this clear:

Laguz are NOT like this all the time. Hell, they are barely like that half the time! Every action Laguz makes in combat, lowers their beast meter. The more you use Transformed Janaff, the faster he declines.

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Janaff is best suited for rushing into frontlines early before he de-transforms and you have to take care of him. However, a demi band, at the lowering of stats, can counter for that, though equipping a full guard on Janaff might just be as good a cause as using it on Jill, eliminating his weakness to bows (Though I'm unsure if it takes out laguzslayer advantages?)

Yes, have Janaff rush the front lines! Have him kill everything there! Wait, he hardly takes any EXP from it? That can't be good for your army. Rather than using a temporary overkill of a Laguz, why not use Jill, who is constantly powerful, and can kill stuff just fine, AND take more EXP?

The Demi Band, sure, use it on Janaff. Janaff would suffer in stats due to it.

Now, I'm not sure about exact stat penalities, but a FE dork that we all love told me that it does -3 STR, -2 DEF and RES, and -1 SPD.

Now, lets look at what this does to Janaff, compared to Lethe.

Janaff now loses in STR. And Jill still has weapons to increase damage she causes.

Let's take SPD. With Janaff having 27.8 SPD, to Jill's 24.6 is about a 3 point lead. However, with the -1 SPD, it is now about two. And really, 27 SPD is not nessiary, seeing as having around 25 SPD will let you double attack practically anything. Oh wait, that is about the same amount of SPD that Jill has...

In DEF, Jill is still ahead.

In RES, well, the gap is closed.

So, as you can see, equipping that Demi Band doesn't make Janaff much superior, if any, to Jill.

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Laguz stones pop up once in awhile, so once Janaff has untransformed and safely moved away, what's to stop you from healing him and popping him back into beast form on the same turn? Janaff back into the fray!

Too bad Janaff doesn't have the mounted ability, like Jill, so he can safely move away again. And Laguz stones come with 3 uses, and there aren't a whole lot of them. Plus, that just lets Janaff back up to the front, sucking up EXP more that could go to more solid, consistant, and better units. You get Janaff around the time Ike promotes. I would rather be putting EXP into him, than Janaff.

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Due to his offensive nature, if given the skill cancel, he'll still have a decent chance of activating it and taking 0 damage. So you don't simply have to rely on dodge with him, because if the cancel skill comes along and starts working properly, then Janaff can float around the front lines dishing out damage. Cancel is reminiscent of the "Big Guard" skill that Generals have, so its awfully strange seeing it on a "little bird" but it's no less effective

Decent? Activation equals SKL. So that basically means he has a 28.4% chance of activating it. That is nowhere near reliable. And while Cancel may remove the counter attack of that battle, what about afterwards? He still gets to move. Maybe he will run away and get healed, and fight another day. Maybe he will come back and hit Janaff hard. Stun, on the other hand, prevents any of that. If Stun hits, the enemy has to pray that he isn't smited, since he can't move.

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Despite being locked into a single weapon, Janaff's beak has no clear disadvantages. Jill, if she wants to maintain effectiveness, will often have to juggle between her lances and axes or else get potentially torn apart by another sword or axe. Janaff is so cool, he doesn't even need a beorc made weapon to dish out damage. He hits them with his face! One of Sentenal's favourite qualities seems to be manliness, and what's more manly than going in with the weapons you were born with and smashing into everything you see?

The only good thing about Janaff's beak is it's infinite uses. Jill gets both Lances and Axes. You can check and see how far an enemy can move. Any sane tactican can judge what enemies can attack Jill, and then just what weapon to use. Good thing enemies tend to clump in groups according to weapons. Jill can either have WTA two of three times, or can nullify any WTD the one case where she can't get WTA (she can't get it over axes). Janaff is so cool, he can never get WTA. Ever. And I don't think turning into a birdy and peaking someone's eye is very manly.

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If you have Jill talk to Shiharam (Which I did on my first play through, thinking I could recruit him), Jill turns back into an enemy and fights you! What was the point in training her if she's capable of just turning on you like that? I read later, that you can bring her back if someone has an A support with her...but it's still pretty ridiculous that Jill can continue to be a turncoat. Most wyverns in games come from the enemy country, but they always stay on your team. Jill has the option of returning to her father, and then all your hard work and money spent on raising her will bite you in the ass. If you lose Jill here, how will you recruit Haar later? Blam. You've just lost your air force. While all characters are a liability because they can die, Jill is a liability because she can turn on you. That makes me incredibly unhappy.

Well, Kamai, there is one, very easy solution to this horrid problem. Just don't talk to him with Jill! I mean, technically if you are going to shoot something, and you are holding the gun backwards, you are going to shoot yourself, but it's not the guns fault you just used it against yourself. Point being, it's not Jill's fault you used her against yourself, when there was plenty of ingame-storyline telling you to keep her away from him.

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I prefer loyal characters, like Janaff, who even if they don't like what they're doing, will follow orders. Janaff takes orders from Tibarn and Ike, who are at least, at the end, on the same side. You can always count on Janaff working for you and following through on your orders. Think he's gonna listen to Naesala? No. Is Ashnard going to be able to convince him to fight for Daein? No. Janaff is loyal through and through. Go Janaff.

Wait, that is what happens with Jill. Jill is a soldier of Daein. Ike is basically her enemy. IF she talks to her Father, it would be loyality to her father, not Loyality to her enemy.

But then again, Jill is mature enough to make her decesions in life, and choose her own path. Not Janaff. Basically, to put it nicely, is a bitch.

Jill is hot. Jill has feminine armor, showing both her hawtness, and that she kicks ass. And she rides a giant lizard. Janaff is a furry. I think it is clear as to who be teh better unit.
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Judges, PM me your votes. Or PM Luke your votes. Or post them somewhere.
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