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Merk vs Sentenal; losers finals
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Topic Started: Sep 7 2006, 02:46 PM (533 Views)
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+Ema Skye
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Sep 7 2006, 02:46 PM
Post #1
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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5 posts per person.
This is losers finals, meaning the winner advances to the final round where they must win by a unanimous vote in order to beat the winner of winners finals.
Merk's starting.
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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Merk
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Sep 7 2006, 10:35 PM
Post #2
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ザワザワ
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For great reference.
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Lowen Class Path: Cavalier -> Paladin Affinity: Fire Joins: Birds of a Feather Supports: Marcus, Harken, Isadora, Eliwood, and Rebecca. Possession Items: Iron Sword, Iron Lance. Weapon Levels: Sword D, Lance D (Axe E)
Initial Statistics - Level 2 Cavalier: Total; 52 / 84 with Stagnants HP: 23 STR: 7 SKL: 5 SPD: 7 LCK: 3 DEF: 7 RES: 0 CON: 10 AID: 15 MOVE: 7
Growth Rates: Total; 300% HP: 90% STR: 30% SKL: 30% SPD: 30% LCK: 50% DEF: 40% RES: 30%
20/20 Averages (3 Deviations Down): Total; 170.1 / 203.1 with Stagnants HP: 58.2 (53.1) STR: 19.1 (11.0) SKL: 17.1 (8.7) SPD: 19.0 (10.9) LCK: 21.5 (12.5) DEF: 23.1 (16.8) RES: 12.1 (3.8) CON: 12 AID: 13 MOVE: 8
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Heath Class: Wyvern Knight --> Wyvern Lord Affinity: Thunder Joins: Kinship's Bond Supports With: Vaida, Priscilla, Legault, Kent, Louise Starting Equipment: Axereaver, Javelin, Mine Weapon Levels Lances: B (Swords E)
Base Statistics; Level 7(hard mode samples): Total Stats; 72 (81) without Stagnants / 104 (113) with Stagnants
HP: 28(31) STR: 11(13) SKL: 8(9) SPD: 7(8) LUK: 7(7) DEF: 10(11) RES: 1(2) CON: 9 AID: 16 MOV: 7
Growth Rates: Total Growth; 295%
HP: 80% STR: 50% SKL: 50% SPD: 45% LUK: 20% DEF: 30% RES: 20%
Averages (With HM Sample) [3 Deviations Down]: Total Stats; 172.4 (179.4) without Stagnants / 205.4 (212.4) with Stagnants
HP: 57.7(60.0) [51.2] STR: 25.9(27.0) [20.8] SKL: 24.3(25.0) [20.4] SPD: 22.1(23.0) [17.6] LUK: 13.4(13.4) [6.5] DEF: 19.6(20.6) [11.8] RES: 9.4(10.4) [2.5] CON: 10 AID: 15 MOV: 8
A debate between the "horse-tank" of Pherae and the mercenary of Bern. Lowen is one of Eliwood's sworn guards and strives to attain the honor of Knighthood with each thrust of his lance or slash of his blade. Heath is a rebellious mercenary who defied his country for the greater good. Both are amazing units, but which one is more useful? I will champion Lowen.
The Argument Against Time
The major argument against Heath and for Lowen concerns joining time. It means a lot more than "Heath joins x chapters later". (For the record, Heath joins 14 chapters later, taking into account Birds of a Feather as well as all the sidequests.) To properly analyze joining time, several factors must be taken into account.
Relative Strength to Enemies
One of the reasons Heath is praised is because he boasts strong base statistics. However, Heath joins at a point in the game when the regular enemies have also recieved significant level-ups. Heath is disadvantaged relative to the enemies found in Kinship's Bond.
Heath is a frail unit for when you recieve him. The enemy Wyvern Knights are about as strong as him. Since many Fighters on that level carry Swordreavers, Heath cannot face them. Heath is vulnerable to the ballistae found on that map, as well. He's not anywhere near ready to face Eubans.
By the time you reach Kinship's Bond, you will have several units that have gained levels and far surpassed Heath. Some of them may even be promoted. One of these characters could be Lowen.
Lowen joins in Birds of a Feather, where his stats are comparable to Eliwood's stats. Lowen's stats are sturdy for that point in the game. They are strong enough to handle Fighters, Pegasus Knights, and Soldiers - the more common melee enemies in the beginning of the game. Because he is on par in terms of power with the Lords, he is a major help in levelling up Eliwood, Rebecca, etc. Without Lowen, you would need to use Oswin or Marcus to babysit your lesser units, and those two run the risk of killing the enemies instead of weakening them.
Level
With 14 chapters more to grow than Heath has, Lowen has the potential to rise above his Level 2 Cavalier stats. Shocking, isn't it.
Since I'm rooting for Lowen, I would promote heavy use of him from the onset (as would you for Heath.) A conservative estimate of EXP gained per chapter is maybe 50. I could go up to saying that Lowen could gain a level a chapter and still be within reasonable bounds.
Bringing such a Lowen to Kinship's Bond, his stats will exceed that of Heath, even with HHM Bonus.
Weapon Levels
Lowen has 14 more chapters to grow his weapon levels than Heath has. As an aside, it's worth the opportunity to mention that Lowen starts out being able to use 2 weapons and ends up with 3, while Heath is locked to 1 in first tier and gains Lowen's secondary weapon in tier 2.
Lowen begins with a D in Swords and a D in Lances, while Heath begins with a B in Lances. Since Lowen gets more time to level up his weapons, he could easily have an A in Swords or Lances, or high B ranks in both. He will undoubtedly have more weapon variety than Heath in both tiers, and he will be able to use more powerful weapons than Heath when Heath is acquired.
Supports
Lowen has 14 more chapters to grow his supports than Heath does. Granted, that doesn't include Harken or Isadora, but Marcus, Eliwood, and Rebecca are with him from the beginning. All three are great and viable supports. I'm going to compare each unit's respective support options in another post.
Lowen's large advantages in all aspects of joining time over Heath give him an amazing advantage.
That sums up my first post. Good luck Sentenal, and may we have a debate worthy of the Finals. 
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s
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Sentenal
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Sep 8 2006, 05:45 PM
Post #3
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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One of the reasons Heath is praised is because he boasts strong base statistics. However, Heath joins at a point in the game when the regular enemies have also recieved significant level-ups. Heath is disadvantaged relative to the enemies found in Kinship's Bond.
Heath is a frail unit for when you recieve him. The enemy Wyvern Knights are about as strong as him. Since many Fighters on that level carry Swordreavers, Heath cannot face them. Heath is vulnerable to the ballistae found on that map, as well. He's not anywhere near ready to face Eubans.
A disadvantage when he is equal to the enemies around him? I would not call that a disadvantage, unless you are going to have Heath take on the entire enemy force by himself.
Heath's strong base stats mean he is less prone to be RNG screwed. Even in 3 deviations down, he only has question marks at RES, LUK, and DEF. And even then, his DEF is just barely passible at 3 Deviations down. And unlike Lowen at 3 deviations, Heath is still able to cause decent damage, with still superior STR, SKL, and SPD.
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By the time you reach Kinship's Bond, you will have several units that have gained levels and far surpassed Heath. Some of them may even be promoted. One of these characters could be Lowen.
Yes, you could have several units already surpass Heath's starting stats when you get him. However, Heath turns out much better than almost all of them. Only your unit, Lowen, is comparible in 20/20 power. However, Heath has an advantage over Lowen, with not only being great in DEF, but great in offense as well.
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Lowen joins in Birds of a Feather, where his stats are comparable to Eliwood's stats. Lowen's stats are sturdy for that point in the game. They are strong enough to handle Fighters, Pegasus Knights, and Soldiers - the more common melee enemies in the beginning of the game. Because he is on par in terms of power with the Lords, he is a major help in levelling up Eliwood, Rebecca, etc. Without Lowen, you would need to use Oswin or Marcus to babysit your lesser units, and those two run the risk of killing the enemies instead of weakening them.
As far as weakening early units for Lords to get kills, Lowen is not the only one who can do that. Bartre, Dorcas, Oswin, and Hector can as well. Granted, they won't always not kill the enemy, but there are a good number that won't be killed. Hell, even Rebecca can help out in causing chip damage to help out.
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With 14 chapters more to grow than Heath has, Lowen has the potential to rise above his Level 2 Cavalier stats. Shocking, isn't it.
Since I'm rooting for Lowen, I would promote heavy use of him from the onset (as would you for Heath.) A conservative estimate of EXP gained per chapter is maybe 50. I could go up to saying that Lowen could gain a level a chapter and still be within reasonable bounds.
Bringing such a Lowen to Kinship's Bond, his stats will exceed that of Heath, even with HHM Bonus.
Heath, since he comes at a lower level compared to the rest of your party, will therefore get more experience from battle as everyone else. Heath will grow fast enough to reach everyone else. And to help Heath out against some of the stronger Melee units, Heath comes with a great weapon for leveling up lower units: A Javalin. Heath can attack stronger enemies from a space away, and not worry about counter attacks. He can assist your already level units in a tempory support role like this.
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Lowen has 14 more chapters to grow his weapon levels than Heath has. As an aside, it's worth the opportunity to mention that Lowen starts out being able to use 2 weapons and ends up with 3, while Heath is locked to 1 in first tier and gains Lowen's secondary weapon in tier 2.
Lowen begins with a D in Swords and a D in Lances, while Heath begins with a B in Lances. Since Lowen gets more time to level up his weapons, he could easily have an A in Swords or Lances, or high B ranks in both. He will undoubtedly have more weapon variety than Heath in both tiers, and he will be able to use more powerful weapons than Heath when Heath is acquired.
For most of the game, weapons Iron weapons, and things like Javalins should be your main focus of weapons. Occasionally, you may want to use higher ranked weapons, but you don't need any A ranked weapons at the point you get either Heath or Lowen.
As to Lowen having more control over the weapon triangle. First off, Heath controlling 2/3 of it when promoted is very good, as it makes him invulnerable to getting the bad end of it. Lowen can always be at the good end of it. This is all fine and good, however, Lowen requires this to be decent on offense.
Normally, without weapon triangle factored in, Lowen will have about the same hit% as Heath, although when getting the bonus, he gets maybe 12% more of a chance than Heath. However, factor in their Average STR.
Heath, with an Iron Lance, has 34 might. Lowen, with an Iron Lance, has 26.1 might. Even with the +1 from the weapon triangle, Heath surpasses him. What if Lowen has an Iron Axe? He still loses, at having 27.1 might. So even with a bigger variety in weapons, and the ability to control the weapon triangle, it is not enough to compete with Heath's offensive firepower.
So, the fact of the matter is, Lowen may be able get the upper hand in the weapon triangle more, but when it comes to dealing damage, Heath still wins.
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Lowen has 14 more chapters to grow his supports than Heath does. Granted, that doesn't include Harken or Isadora, but Marcus, Eliwood, and Rebecca are with him from the beginning. All three are great and viable supports. I'm going to compare each unit's respective support options in another post.
Lowen does have an advantage in supports. However, Eliwood would be better off supporting with your other Lords, and Rebecca would be a waste. Lowen-Marcus is a good support for early game, but as the game progresses, and more and more units surpass Marcus, that Support starts to lose it's value.
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Merk
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Sep 8 2006, 08:49 PM
Post #4
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ザワザワ
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* points will be addressed after the rebuttals.
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A disadvantage when he is equal to the enemies around him? I would not call that a disadvantage, unless you are going to have Heath take on the entire enemy force by himself. No. Even taking on single enemies, Heath is massively disadvantaged. Fighters have high Hit and Mt against him, causing at least 10 damage. Mercenaries typically equip heavy swords like Iron Blades and Steel Swords, and thus cause damage in the ballpark of 5-6, twice. Bow users also lump the hate on Heathizzle. Heath's strong base stats mean he is less prone to be RNG screwed. Even in 3 deviations down, he only has question marks at RES, LUK, and DEF. And even then, his DEF is just barely passible at 3 Deviations down. And unlike Lowen at 3 deviations, Heath is still able to cause decent damage, with still superior STR, SKL, and SPD. I'm not going to call 11.8 DEF "barely passable" by any means. It's shit. Lowen recieves superior DEF and LCK while Heath recieves superior STR, SKL, SPD. It's true that Heath has superior stats overall, but they are both vulnerable to the phenomenon of "RNG Rape".
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Yes, you could have several units already surpass Heath's starting stats when you get him. However, Heath turns out much better than almost all of them. Even with Hard Mode Bonus, Heath doesn't even make the cut into the top #5. Hector, Oswin, Eliwood, and Lyn -in that order- all average higher than Heath, and all of them come much earlier in the story, and are much more useful units. Other examples: Canas, Lucius, Guy, Raven, Sain. The list goes on. Is Heath statistically stronger than these units? Possibly. Is that advantage enough to outweigh the fact that they all join much earlier, have the potential to be at a higher level or promoted by Heath's joining time, or boast strong offensive and defense sets? Definitely not. Heath is something of an "Est" unit; he is comparable to Nino. Only your unit, Lowen, is comparible in 20/20 power. However, Heath has an advantage over Lowen, with not only being great in DEF, but great in offense as well. Lowen doesn't only have defense. He boasts higher LCK, DEF, RES, and CON than Heath. His higher LCK makes him less susceptible to critical hits than Heath, and gives him .1 more Evade* on average (Naturally, I considered Heath's averages with HM Bonus). Superior DEF* is superior DEF is superior DEF, even if only by a couple of points. The RES advantage is small, but still counts. Higher CON lets him hold nearly all lances with no trouble (Rex Hasta and Regal Sword with no AS loss for the win).
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As far as weakening early units for Lords to get kills, Lowen is not the only one who can do that. Bartre, Dorcas, Oswin, and Hector can as well. Granted, they won't always not kill the enemy, but there are a good number that won't be killed. Hell, even Rebecca can help out in causing chip damage to help out. No. Bartre can cause damage without killing, sure, but he gets doubled by earlygame brigands. And earlygame nearly-everything-else, too. He literally runs the risk of being killed on the counterattack. Dorcas could feasibly take this role, but he'll only have around 70-80% chance to hit with an Iron Axe, and he'll take big damage back as well with around the same Hit and Mt against him. Plus, in the long run, he turns out to be terrible, statistically. Oswin also gets doubled by the brigands for ~5 damage x2, and he runs the risk of OHKOing some of the weaker enemies. Hector's awesome and essentially raises himself  Sure, Rebecca can chip in. But she'll cause less damage with less reliability than Lowen. Lowen is the only earlygame unit who can hit the brigands for good damage (around 10 per hit), near or over 100% ACC, and hope to dodge the counterattack. But, not only can he handle brigands, he can handle pegasi/soldiers/cavaliers etc. with Lances. Clearly, he is superior in helping the army in its inchoate stages.
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Heath, since he comes at a lower level compared to the rest of your party, will therefore get more experience from battle as everyone else. Heath will grow fast enough to reach everyone else. At the expense of depriving that EXP from your other party members who may desire it. To have him catch up, you would have to center your strategy around getting him up to speed. You'll already have a powerful and capable army by the time you get him, and you can complete chapter goals more efficiently by focusing on that army than by spending a few more chapters just trying to get him up to that level of power. And to help Heath out against some of the stronger Melee units, Heath comes with a great weapon for leveling up lower units: A Javalin. Heath can attack stronger enemies from a space away, and not worry about counter attacks. He can assist your already level units in a tempory support role like this. First of all, you'll have multiple other units, such as Lowen, who can make better use of that Javelin. Second of all, the Javelin only has 20 uses, less Hit and Mt than an Iron Lance, more weight, and costs 40 G more. It is an inefficient weapon compared to the Iron Lance. Instead of using him to provide support fire with an inefficient weapon, you can use a stronger unit to blast through with a much better weapon.
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For most of the game, weapons Iron weapons, and things like Javalins should be your main focus of weapons. Occasionally, you may want to use higher ranked weapons, but you don't need any A ranked weapons at the point you get either Heath or Lowen. True. However, my point was that Lowen can build up better ranks in more weapons than Heath will have to start with when you get him. Rest will be dealt with after rebuttals
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Lowen does have an advantage in supports. However, Eliwood would be better off supporting with your other Lords, and Rebecca would be a waste. Lowen-Marcus is a good support for early game, but as the game progresses, and more and more units surpass Marcus, that Support starts to lose it's value. I'm going to address supports in a subsequent post.
The Argument for the Weapon Triangle Advantage (WTA)
It's undeniable fact that Lowen has better control over the weapon triangle than Heath does. This manifests itself twice: Lowen has swords and lances in first tier while Heath only has lances, and Lowen gains axes and gains complete triangle mastery in second tier while Heath gains swords.
Unpromoted
Lowen joins you with D Lances and D Swords at Birds of a Feather. Heath joins you with B Lances at Kinship's Bond.
Lowen's ability to use swords in first tier is significant. With it, he can fight enemy brigands and fighters well, and those tend to be a common enemy in the early-game. Throughout the game, swords can compensate for ACC if his SKL tends to drop. He can cover for his own weaknesses.
Because of the ability to check enemy ranges, you can manipulate Lowen's position such that he will never have WTD against any enemy.
Heath's restriction to only lances at the point in the game he joins is a liability. His options are essentially limited to Iron Lance, Javelin, and Axereaver. Of those, the Iron Lance is the most cost effective weapon, but it means he must flee from pirates (common in later chapters) or waste Axereaver uses. He cannot cover his own weaknesses unpromoted.
Promoted
Lowen will gain E Axes at promotion, allowing him to wield the Iron Axe, the most cost-effective weapon in the game, and the best weapon in terms of raw power. It also gains WTA against many in-game enemies. Also note, Lowen should have A/B Lances and B/A Swords, or around these ranks, by the time he promotes.
Heath will gain E Swords at promotion. It does grant good ACC, but axes would have been a much more fitting gain for Heath, IMO. An ATKDEF-geared class like the Dragon Master deserves axes with which to destroy things. Most enemies in the game wield lances, and as such, swords put him at a WTD. Also, he can only hope to have A lances at the time of his promotion.
Lowen's major strength is his versatility. Between Swords, Lances, Axes, the Wind Sword, the Light Brand, and the Rune Sword, Lowen can have WTA over any non-bow, non-staff using enemy. That is amazing. Few other units can share that claim, and none of them have his amazing advantages.
Because of this mastery, and the ability to check enemy ranges, it is possible to make him have WTA nearly 100% of the time.
WTA grants 15% Hit, 1 Mt, 15% Evade, and 1 Def/Res. And because he has access to it nearly all the time, he can be considered to always possess those stat advantages.
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As to Lowen having more control over the weapon triangle. First off, Heath controlling 2/3 of it when promoted is very good, as it makes him invulnerable to getting the bad end of it. Lowen can always be at the good end of it. This is all fine and good, however, Lowen requires this to be decent on offense.
Lowen's ability to have constant WTA is independent of his stats.
Indeed, WTA serves Lowen's defensive purposes better than his offensive purposes. His Evade, which was previously .1 higher than Heath's (59.5 to 59.4), is further boosted, and his impressive defense and above-average resistance will be boosted. It just makes him more of a tank.
While Heath has decent control with two weapons, you probably won't see his Swords rank climb above C. You need B for the magic swords, so he's limited in his own manipulation.
That sums up my second post.
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s
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Sentenal
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Sep 9 2006, 05:39 PM
Post #5
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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No. Even taking on single enemies, Heath is massively disadvantaged. Fighters have high Hit and Mt against him, causing at least 10 damage. Mercenaries typically equip heavy swords like Iron Blades and Steel Swords, and thus cause damage in the ballpark of 5-6, twice. Bow users also lump the hate on Heathizzle.
Well, consider also that Heath comes with a Javalin, and therefore can attack from a distance, avoiding any counter attacks. As for archers, he can either get close, or stay far away from them.
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I'm not going to call 11.8 DEF "barely passable" by any means. It's shit. Lowen recieves superior DEF and LCK while Heath recieves superior STR, SKL, SPD. It's true that Heath has superior stats overall, but they are both vulnerable to the phenomenon of "RNG Rape".
However, in this case, I would say Heath is less vulnerable to the RNG Rape, due to having higher base stats.
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Even with Hard Mode Bonus, Heath doesn't even make the cut into the top #5. Hector, Oswin, Eliwood, and Lyn -in that order- all average higher than Heath, and all of them come much earlier in the story, and are much more useful units. Other examples: Canas, Lucius, Guy, Raven, Sain. The list goes on. Is Heath statistically stronger than these units? Possibly. Is that advantage enough to outweigh the fact that they all join much earlier, have the potential to be at a higher level or promoted by Heath's joining time, or boast strong offensive and defense sets? Definitely not. Heath is something of an "Est" unit; he is comparable to Nino.
Of the units statistically stronger than Heath: None of these are units that would fill Heath's role, save Hector and Oswin, to an extent. Oswin is limited to a defensive role. Eliwood can't serve as a mounted tank. Lyn is a unit much different than Heath.
And comparible to Nino? Nino comes at practically the end of the game, Heath does not. Heath comes late-mid game. Heath, unlike Nino, has a reasonable amount of time to train up. Heath, unlike Nino, doesn't have an 'Athos' to come and fill his role when he starts to get to an acceptible level.
And lets not forget the role Heath plays. A mounted tank with the offensive stats and mobility to nuke. None of those units you listed fill that role. Even the mount you listed can't fulfill Heath's role, as he has less offensive stats than Heath, and less defensive stats than Heath. The others simply cannot form the function of a mounted tank, because they simply aren't mounted, and therefore fill other roles.
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Lowen doesn't only have defense. He boasts higher LCK, DEF, RES, and CON than Heath. His higher LCK makes him less susceptible to critical hits than Heath, and gives him .1 more Evade* on average (Naturally, I considered Heath's averages with HM Bonus). Superior DEF* is superior DEF is superior DEF, even if only by a couple of points. The RES advantage is small, but still counts. Higher CON lets him hold nearly all lances with no trouble (Rex Hasta and Regal Sword with no AS loss for the win).
LUK, DEF, and RES are all "defensive" stats, and Lowen does trump Heath there. On you point about CON, Heath may be down by 2 CON, but he makes up for it by being up 4 SPD.
The critical percentages of enemies in the game are never extremely high in the game to begin with, unless they are something like a Swordmaster with a Killing Edge. And for them, Heath could potientally OHKO them, or, have his DEF and HP suck up most damage that would come from it. However, criticals is not normally a big consern coming from enemy units. And granted, Lowen does dodge more than Heath, which is good for him.
Superior DEF may be superior DEF, but Heath's DEF is just fine. Having 20.6 DEF is plenty to absorb damage. Not to mention Lowen only wins by a few points, as you said. Same with RES.
So, what we have here is Lowen, who has basically only Defense stats, and Heath, who has good Defensive stats, AND great offensive stats.
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No. Bartre can cause damage without killing, sure, but he gets doubled by earlygame brigands. And earlygame nearly-everything-else, too. He literally runs the risk of being killed on the counterattack. Dorcas could feasibly take this role, but he'll only have around 70-80% chance to hit with an Iron Axe, and he'll take big damage back as well with around the same Hit and Mt against him. Plus, in the long run, he turns out to be terrible, statistically. Oswin also gets doubled by the brigands for ~5 damage x2, and he runs the risk of OHKOing some of the weaker enemies. Hector's awesome and essentially raises himself 
Bartre may get double attacked alot at first, but that will not last forever.
Dorcas having 70-80% hit is bad? That is plenty of hit% to land a blow. And since you use your team in groups, him taking damage in return won't matter as much in the short-term. And using Dorcas to soften up enemies won't be investing too much in Dorcas, as you wouldn't be using him to get kills.
Oswin getting double attacked doesn't matter too much. Even if he takes 5ish damage from the brigands, he starts with 28 HP. Enough to keep him alive for a while if he works in a team. Not to mention the AI will probably not want to target Oswin, if a group is in their range.
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Sure, Rebecca can chip in. But she'll cause less damage with less reliability than Lowen.
Against some weaker enemies, less damage is a good thing, if you want your Lords to get EXP.
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Lowen is the only earlygame unit who can hit the brigands for good damage (around 10 per hit), near or over 100% ACC, and hope to dodge the counterattack. But, not only can he handle brigands, he can handle pegasi/soldiers/cavaliers etc. with Lances. Clearly, he is superior in helping the army in its inchoate stages.
First off, I'd like to say that over 100% accuracy is overkill, as having 75%+ percentage to hit is acceptable hit. And other units, such as Bartre and Dorcas, can take the lance users as well, seeing as how they have axes. Lowen does not have a monopoly on helping Lords level up.
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At the expense of depriving that EXP from your other party members who may desire it. To have him catch up, you would have to center your strategy around getting him up to speed. You'll already have a powerful and capable army by the time you get him, and you can complete chapter goals more efficiently by focusing on that army than by spending a few more chapters just trying to get him up to that level of power.
You have a decent army when you can get him, but after you get Heath, there is plenty of time to level him up. And doing so yields greater rewards than keeping some units, who I think of "place-holders" (They hold Heath's place till Heath can take it). And honestly, dropping one unit in a team of 10ish isn't out of the question. That still leaves plenty to do their job. And later on in the game, chapter goals will be met even more efficently with a power Heath.
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First of all, you'll have multiple other units, such as Lowen, who can make better use of that Javelin. Second of all, the Javelin only has 20 uses, less Hit and Mt than an Iron Lance, more weight, and costs 40 G more. It is an inefficient weapon compared to the Iron Lance. Instead of using him to provide support fire with an inefficient weapon, you can use a stronger unit to blast through with a much better weapon.
And you will probably javalins to go around to those who need them.
Heath starting with a Javalin helps Heath level, until he can effectively use an iron lance.
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True. However, my point was that Lowen can build up better ranks in more weapons than Heath will have to start with when you get him. Rest will be dealt with after rebuttals
Which is unnessisary, because when you get Heath, iron weapons are still the way to go. By the end of the game, both (if used) will have leveled up their weapon skill enough to use the better weapons.
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Lowen's ability to use swords in first tier is significant. With it, he can fight enemy brigands and fighters well, and those tend to be a common enemy in the early-game. Throughout the game, swords can compensate for ACC if his SKL tends to drop. He can cover for his own weaknesses.
He can use swords to cover for his SKL weakness, with that 15% bonus. Doing this, however, doesn't compensate for his STR weakness.
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Heath's restriction to only lances at the point in the game he joins is a liability. His options are essentially limited to Iron Lance, Javelin, and Axereaver. Of those, the Iron Lance is the most cost effective weapon, but it means he must flee from pirates (common in later chapters) or waste Axereaver uses. He cannot cover his own weaknesses unpromoted.
Using the axe reaver that he comes with works, since it's a free weapon. Or, just let one of your sword users, like Eliwood, Lyn, or Guy take them. Or an Axe user take them, with no negative penality.
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Lowen will gain E Axes at promotion, allowing him to wield the Iron Axe, the most cost-effective weapon in the game, and the best weapon in terms of raw power. It also gains WTA against many in-game enemies. Also note, Lowen should have A/B Lances and B/A Swords, or around these ranks, by the time he promotes.
Axes, while covers Lowen's STR problem, don't do anything for his SKL problem, and actually make it worse, since Axes are inaccurate.
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Heath will gain E Swords at promotion. It does grant good ACC, but axes would have been a much more fitting gain for Heath, IMO. An ATKDEF-geared class like the Dragon Master deserves axes with which to destroy things. Most enemies in the game wield lances, and as such, swords put him at a WTD. Also, he can only hope to have A lances at the time of his promotion.
I would agree that I would have rather him get Axes, but oh well. End game Warriors and Berserkers, powerful Axe users, the only melee units which can cause real damage to your lance-wielding tanks, can be dealt with using a sword. Gives Heath a nice accuracy and evasion bonus against them.
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Lowen's major strength is his versatility. Between Swords, Lances, Axes, the Wind Sword, the Light Brand, and the Rune Sword, Lowen can have WTA over any non-bow, non-staff using enemy. That is amazing. Few other units can share that claim, and none of them have his amazing advantages.
Yes, he CAN. However, with the Wind Sword, Light Brand, and Rune Sword, they are all rare, and have few weapon-uses on them. And with Lowen's RES, it would probably be best keeping him away from mages, even with his WTA over them.
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Because of this mastery, and the ability to check enemy ranges, it is possible to make him have WTA nearly 100% of the time.
Yes, but even with the WTA, he will always only address one of his stat issues. With swords, he will have accuracy, but less damage. With axes, he will have damage, but less accuracy.
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WTA grants 15% Hit, 1 Mt, 15% Evade, and 1 Def/Res. And because he has access to it nearly all the time, he can be considered to always possess those stat advantages.
Lowen will NEED those damage bonuses to cause... damage. Even then, Lowen STILL won't damage people as much as Heath will. With his accuracy bonus, he needs to to compensate for his low SKL.
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Indeed, WTA serves Lowen's defensive purposes better than his offensive purposes. His Evade, which was previously .1 higher than Heath's (59.5 to 59.4), is further boosted, and his impressive defense and above-average resistance will be boosted. It just makes him more of a tank.
Makes him more a tank, yes, but without it, his Defense is fine. Same with Heath. And in terms of DEF/RES being boosted, it is only by 1. Not alot.
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While Heath has decent control with two weapons, you probably won't see his Swords rank climb above C. You need B for the magic swords, so he's limited in his own manipulation.
Heath won't have much use for Swords, as he doesn't have offensive holes he needs to fill. Though, he can use swords, and perhaps get them up to C if you use them enough. However, mage slaying is best left to other units than Heath and Lowen. Like mages.
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Merk
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Sep 10 2006, 08:11 AM
Post #6
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ザワザワ
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* points will be addressed after rebuttals.
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Well, consider also that Heath comes with a Javalin, and therefore can attack from a distance, avoiding any counterattacks. As for archers, he can either get close, or stay far away from them. Any other unit you bring to that chapter with a Javelin will outperform Heath in that purpose. Any other unit can attack melee to an archer (Lowen has exactly the same attack range), but no other units except Florina and Fiora have that weakness.However, in this case, I would say Heath is less vulnerable to the RNG Rape, due to having higher base stats. Heath has safer STR, SKL, SPD. Lowen has safer HP, LCK, DEF, and RES. Heath's HM Bonus lets him catch up in HP, somewhat in DEF and RES. To be exact, Heath's stat totals at 3 deviations down are 13.8 (22.8 with HM Bonus) higher than Lowen's stat totals at 3 deviations down, with most of the advantages in the three offensives. At normal averages, HM Heath is superior to Lowen by 9.3 stat points. Even though Heath is statistically superior, the depth of RNG Rape is the same.Of the units statistically stronger than Heath: None of these are units that would fill Heath's role, save Hector and Oswin, to an extent. Oswin is limited to a defensive role. Eliwood can't serve as a mounted tank. Lyn is a unit much different than Heath. The three lords all have excellent offensive sets, and Oswin has excellent STR. Eliwood gains a horse upon promotion, not too long after Heath joins in HHM.And comparible to Nino? Nino comes at practically the end of the game, Heath does not. Heath comes late-mid game. Heath does, though, come at a time when you have multiple units that can fulfill his roles better than him and are at a higher level, making them an asset and him a liability.Heath, unlike Nino, has a reasonable amount of time to train up. Living Legend = Dead Heath. Genesis = Dead Heath. Four Fanged Offense can be brutal to him with the ballistae and pirates. Pale Flower of Darkness (Kenneth Version) = Dead Heath. By the time you can start seriously using him, your other units will have surpassed him by even more.Heath, unlike Nino, doesn't have an 'Athos' to come and fill his role when he starts to get to an acceptible level. Around that time when he becomes a viable unit, you begin to recieve many powerful promoted units: Pent, Harken, etc. They come already trained and useful, and can fulfill the role of nuking more reliably than Heath.And lets not forget the role Heath plays. A mounted tank with the offensive stats and mobility to nuke. None of those units you listed fill that role. Even the mount you listed can't fulfill Heath's role, as he has less offensive stats than Heath, and less defensive stats than Heath. So any unit that is statistically inferior to Heath, even only by small margins, or in less important areas, are automatically unfit for his role, despite much superior joining time, supports*, usability, situational usefulness, etc.?
http://rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Sain http://rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Heath
Sain will have flat-out amazing offenses by the time Heath joins. I listed Lowen as joining in at level 16, so it's only fair to assume Sain could join at the same level. 60% STR Growth = God. As a level 16 Cavalier, he'll average 17.0 STR exactly. He'll also average 12.0 SPD. What part about that isn't an offensive machine? With Sain's monstrous STR growth, he maxes STR on average. Read the charts if you don't believe me, as soon as he hits 20/18, he'll average 25.0 STR exactly. He will be a superior mounted nuker relative to Heath when you recieve Heath, and with Axes and WTA, he'll actually be stronger than Heath. He also has comparable SPD, and higher LCK, too. He is completely outdone by Sain as a mounted nuker.
But more importantly, Lowen can nuke to an extent and also provide an amazing defense.The others simply cannot form the function of a mounted tank, because they simply aren't mounted, and therefore fill other roles. The other units all have time to develop amazing offensive stat sets by the time Heath joins. Even if they're not mounted, they will have nuking abilities that outshine Heath's. You'll already have enough mounted people who can cook enemies: Marcus, Lowen, and/or Sain.The critical percentages of enemies in the game are never extremely high in the game to begin with, unless they are something like a Swordmaster with a Killing Edge. And for them, Heath could potientally OHKO them, or, have his DEF and HP suck up most damage that would come from it. However, criticals is not normally a big consern coming from enemy units. And granted, Lowen does dodge more than Heath, which is good for him. Berserkers, Swordmasters with Silver Swords, Killer Lance Cavaliers, and Killer Bow Archers* will massively damage Heath. Lowen negates critical more effectiely, and even soaks up the damage more efficiently.Superior DEF may be superior DEF, but Heath's DEF is just fine. Having 20.6 DEF is plenty to absorb damage. Not to mention Lowen only wins by a few points, as you said. Same with RES. Lowen will have his superior LCK, DEF, and RES before Heath has time to develop his. Yes, in the endgame, DEF is comparable, but until the lategame, Lowen will trounce Heath defensively.So, what we have here is Lowen, who has basically only Defense stats, and Heath, who has good Defensive stats, AND great offensive stats. With stagants and counting HM Bonus, Lowen only loses out by about 10 points. He has 19.1 STR, 17,1 SKL, and 19.1 SPD. He's not going to win any awards, sure, but he can damage and kill enemies in Rekka. Because he has more time to develop than Heath does, he'll boast superior offensive statistics until a few more chapters into the mid-lategame, where Heath can actually be used. And only in the endgame does Heath get defensive stats that can compete.Bartre may get double attacked alot at first, but that will not last forever. It's enough to make him virtually unusable at the onset. On average (Link to RGPDL), it will take Bartre three levels to grow 1 SPD, just enough to not be 2x attacked by the most basic brigands in the game. As enemies get stronger, it will take Bartre many levels to outgrow being 2x attacked for good, and many more to be able to 2x attack himself. Granted, Lowen has 10% less growth, but starts out with 4 more at base and gets 1 more SPD at promotion. At 3 deviations down, Lowen has 10.9 SPD and Bartre has 8.8 SPD.Dorcas having 70-80% hit is bad? That is plenty of hit% to land a blow. And since you use your team in groups, him taking damage in return won't matter as much in the short-term. And using Dorcas to soften up enemies won't be investing too much in Dorcas, as you wouldn't be using him to get kills. Him taking damage "won't matter as much in the short-term"? Brigands will do around the same damage to him he dishes out. He can only survive about 3 attacks before he's done. And using a unit = investment.Oswin getting double attacked doesn't matter too much. Even if he takes 5ish damage from the brigands, he starts with 28 HP. Enough to keep him alive for a while if he works in a team. Not to mention the AI will probably not want to target Oswin, if a group is in their range. He has about the same durability has Dorcas against brigands. He runs the risk of OHKOing archers, mercenaries, and myrmidons.Against some weaker enemies, less damage is a good thing, if you want your Lords to get EXP. Yes, but you want the hits to be effective. Lowen's blows are very effective at the beginning, usually causing about 10 points of damage safely. Rebecca is really only useful against the pegasi.First off, I'd like to say that over 100% accuracy is overkill, as having 75%+ percentage to hit is acceptable hit. And other units, such as Bartre and Dorcas, can take the lance users as well, seeing as how they have axes. Lowen does not have a monopoly on helping Lords level up. It's overkill, sure, but it's still better. Lowen also dodges the counterattacks more reliably from the brigands, and has the ATKDEF to take on lance users as well. He may not have the monopoly, but he is the most useful unit in that regard.You have a decent army when you can get him, but after you get Heath, there is plenty of time to level him up. He is unusable for about 3-4 chapters after you get him. And doing so yields greater rewards than keeping some units, who I think of "place-holders" (They hold Heath's place till Heath can take it). Said "placeholders" will function almost as good as Heath does in his roles, and come more powerful than him, requiring less training. And honestly, dropping one unit in a team of 10ish isn't out of the question. Wasted EXP is poor planning. That still leaves plenty to do their job. And later on in the game, chapter goals will be met even more efficently with a power Heath. His various weaknesses*; to magic, to ballistae, archers, etc. actually make him a liability compared to a strong and balanced paladin or other capable unit.Heath starting with a Javalin helps Heath level, until he can effectively use an iron lance. Normally he'd recieve ~10 EXP per hit for a javelin strike, and due to reduced EXP in HHM, that's only about 5 EXP per strike. He'll eat his entire javelin just to level up once, which is definitely not enough to put him on par with the rest of your army.Which is unnessisary, because when you get Heath, iron weapons are still the way to go. By the end of the game, both (if used) will have leveled up their weapon skill enough to use the better weapons. Yes, Iron Weapons are obviously the most cost-effective weapon in the game and the most useful for the majority. However, in a pinch, it can really help to use an advanced weapon like a Longsword/Heavy Spear, or even shave off a use or two of a Silver Lance for a really tough boss. The Wind Sword and Light Brand swords can also be useful. Heath does not come with the ranks or flexibility of weapons to be able to manuever out of a tight spot.He can use swords to cover for his SKL weakness, with that 15% bonus. Doing this, however, doesn't compensate for his STR weakness. Lances and Axes provide backup to his STR.Using the axe reaver that he comes with works, since it's a free weapon. It's not that good, though. Low ACC + High WGT + Low uses for the lose. Or, just let one of your sword users, like Eliwood, Lyn, or Guy take them. Or an Axe user take them, with no negative penality. Examples of units that are more useful than Heath with dealing with said situation.Axes, while covers Lowen's STR problem, don't do anything for his SKL problem, and actually make it worse, since Axes are inaccurate. Enemies have low SPD and no luck. He can hit just fine with axes.I would agree that I would have rather him get Axes, but oh well. End game Warriors and Berserkers, powerful Axe users, the only melee units which can cause real damage to your lance-wielding tanks, can be dealt with using a sword. Gives Heath a nice accuracy and evasion bonus against them. Lowen has better evasion, DEF, and swords, plus a higher starting rank (may want S rank for +5% Hit and Crit), and so can handle said units better than Heath can.Yes, he CAN. However, with the Wind Sword, Light Brand, and Rune Sword, they are all rare, and have few weapon-uses on them. And with Lowen's RES, it would probably be best keeping him away from mages, even with his WTA over them. It's still an advantage for him. He has better RES than most melee units, better than Heath for sure, and has the MOVE for a first strike advantage.Lowen will NEED those damage bonuses to cause... damage. Even then, Lowen STILL won't damage people as much as Heath will. With his accuracy bonus, he needs to to compensate for his low SKL. You can phrase it however you like. Lowen has those advantages; to not make use of them is beyond retarded. Few units have Heath's STR, but Lowen can still cause good damage. His low SKL doesn't affect him too much since enemies suck at dodging.Makes him more a tank, yes, but without it, his Defense is fine. Thanks for pointing that out. Same with Heath. And in terms of DEF/RES being boosted, it is only by 1. Not alot. 1 less damage per round. In 30 rounds, that's 30 less damage taken. You get the idea. It's still his advantage.Heath won't have much use for Swords, as he doesn't have offensive holes he needs to fill. Heath desperately needs Swords if he wants to even try to obtain WTA a good amount of the time. Though, he can use swords, and perhaps get them up to C if you use them enough. However, mage slaying is best left to other units than Heath and Lowen. Like mages. Lowen can get the first strike and WTA, and has better average RES than Heath, indeed more than many melee units. Of the melee units, he's among the best to take on mages. In chapters like Cog of Destiny, which is almost entirely magic units, you'll need melee units that can fight magic users. His high LCK which gives him superior evade (makes him good against Shamans/Druids) and anticritical (makes him good against Monks/Bishops) makes him even more effective.
Weaknesses
Lowen is weak to one sword, one lance, and one axe. All three weapons do appear in-game, but are rare and he can gain WTA against any of them.
Moreover, he can equip all of these weapons himself and gain advantages against other paladins.
Heath is weak to one sword and an entire category of weapons, bows. Ballistae seriously fsck him up. They can literally OHKO him, or leave him with HP in the single digits.
Heath is also vulnerable to magic, more so than Lowen. By the time Lowen joins, he will at least have had the chance to grow some RES. At level 16, he averages 4.2, and within 1 deviation down, 2.5. Lowen gets better dodge and LCK and also WTA against mages, and as such is better equipped to handle them.
Supports
Lowen crushes Heath in support utility.
Lowen's advantages over Heath can be categorized into three parts: Lowen supports with better units than Heath does, Lowen supports more quickly than Heath does, and most importantly, Lowen has 14 more chapters to build 3 of his supports before you even recieve Heath.
Lowen supports with: Marcus (Ice) 21/48/75 Harken (Fire) 22/49/76 Isadora (Darkness) 24/51/78 Eliwood (Anima) 31/71/111 Rebecca (Fire) 38/78/118
Heath support with: Vaida (Fire) 41/81/121 Priscilla (Wind) 41/81/121 Legault (Ice) 41/81/121 Kent (Anima) 41/81/121 Louise (Light) 81/161/--
Support Unit Comparison
Lowen supports Marcus. The Fire x Ice support gives bonii everywhere, including a handy 1.5 to PWR, 15% to ACC, and 7.5% to Crit. The two units have around the same MOVE range, and perform nearly the same functions, and so are a great support. Marcus, contrary to popular opinion, remains useful throughout the entire game.
Lowen supports Harken. The Fire x Fire support is the best offensive support, giving 3 PWR, 15% Hit, and 15% Crit. Harken is a solid unit, comes with a Brave Sword, and gets HM bonus.
Lowen supports Isadora. The Fire x Darkness support gives 1.5 PWR, 15% Hit, and 15% Crit. Isadora is a speedy paladin and comes in the same chapter as Heath.
Lowen supports Eliwood. The Fire x Anima support gives 3 PWR.
A common argument against a unit supporting a Lord is that the Lords should all be supporting eachother. Consider this. Let's say we have a support chain that reads:
Eliwood - B - Lyn - B - Hector - B - Eliwood
Now, one of those B's can develop into an A. Let's say we support Eliwood and Lyn.
Eliwood - A Lyn - B - Hector - B - Eliwood
Now Hector can't develop an A, and so is forced to develop an inefficient C support with some other unit. A much better alternative to this would be to have one of the Lords link the trio. I would use Lyn, since she has no noteworthy supports. Now we can build a chain like this:
Lowen - B - Eliwood - A - Lyn - B - Hector - A - Oswin
Now we have an efficient setup with every Lord having one B support and one A support. Thus, it's possible and actually a good idea to have Lowen support Eliwood. Lowen will constantly be near Eliwood in the beginning, anyway, helping to kill enemies Eliwood is having trouble with. Lowen can also rescue Eliwood if he gets into a pinch.
Lowen supports Rebecca, and she grants the awesome offensive Fire x Fire support as well. She's useful in the beginning to provide support fire. Additionally, HHM is chock full of Peg Knights, and she can inflict massive damage to them.
Heath supports Vaida. In HHM Cog of Destiny, the chapter she joins, both she and Heath are unusable. Indeed, since she comes pre-trained, she may be at a higher level than Heath due to his initial shakiness. She averages just fine, too, with plenty of ATKDEF and even some good SPD. She starts with more DEF than Heath averages. Using both on the field, though, is not smart. First of all, they are limited to two weapons, and as such are not as versatile as paladins. Secondly, they will both have weaknesses to bows and magic. Using two of them may be a liability more than an asset.
Heath supports Priscilla. Priscilla's averages are meh, she really only has high LCK. Her offenses barely break 20 and her MGC and SPD are rapeable (-7.5 each at 3 deviations down). Additionally, she has gaping stat holes in HP and DEF, making an unlikely arrow that finds her or a surprise axe that strikes her devastating. Heath is frontlines offensive, Priscilla is backlines healing, so you'll rarely find them together anyway.
Heath supports Legault. Despite being the statistically most powerful of the thieves, Legault is locked into a shitty combat class, even in promotion. Heath is frontlines offensive, Legault is wherever the treasure is, usually staying behind so as not to draw fire.
Heath supports Kent. Kent is the worst of the cavaliers, neither having the offensive abilities of Sain nor the defensive abilities of Lowen. All he really has is some SKL.
Heath supports Louise, and it's his longest support. In the end, he can only get a B anyway.
Support Times
Lowen's slowest support, Lowen x Rebecca, builds faster than all of Heath's supports.
Time to build Supports
By the time you recieve Heath, Lowen could easily have an A with Marcus, Rebecca, or Eliwood.
Third post, done.
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s
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Sentenal
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Sep 13 2006, 01:03 AM
Post #7
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Any other unit you bring to that chapter with a Javelin will outperform Heath in that purpose. Any other unit can attack melee to an archer (Lowen has exactly the same attack range), but no other units except Florina and Fiora have that weakness.
Yes, however, Heath comes with a free one. Other units who you would have use javelins would already have them. And with a Javelin, Heath will be able to effectively attack and level up. The main purpose of Heath using a Javelin early is so he can build EXP without getting damaged in return. The other lance users you have would be better served using Iron Lances, since you are not currently raising them.
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Heath has safer STR, SKL, SPD. Lowen has safer HP, LCK, DEF, and RES. Heath's HM Bonus lets him catch up in HP, somewhat in DEF and RES. To be exact, Heath's stat totals at 3 deviations down are 13.8 (22.8 with HM Bonus) higher than Lowen's stat totals at 3 deviations down, with most of the advantages in the three offensives. At normal averages, HM Heath is superior to Lowen by 9.3 stat points. Even though Heath is statistically superior, the depth of RNG Rape is the same.
Perhaps the same to an extent, but even still, Heath is less prone to it than Lowen. This is a fact. Leveling Heath is slightly safer than leveling Lowen, due to Heath being less prone to RNG rape.
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The three lords all have excellent offensive sets, and Oswin has excellent STR. Eliwood gains a horse upon promotion, not too long after Heath joins in HHM.
Hector cannot form the function of a mount. After Hector's promotion, he doesn't get the same MOV bonus many other people get. He is still great, just not the role of a mount. Same with Oswin, who also doesn't have the SPD that Heath has, allowing Heath to have effectively double the attacking power on him. And Eliwood, while a good unit, does not have the statistical offensive firepower of Heath, nor his DEF to be a tank. None of those units can fill Heath's role, or fill it as well.
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Heath does, though, come at a time when you have multiple units that can fulfill his roles better than him and are at a higher level, making them an asset and him a liability.
You have an army of 12ish people. When you get Heath, you would only have to drop one, out of 12 people, to use him. And odds are, not all 12 of your units will be tons stronger than Heath. Slip Heath in there, give him a bit of action, and watch him grow into a monster that will crush things later on. It's as simple as that. It is more the tactican's fault if they allow Heath to become a liability.
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So any unit that is statistically inferior to Heath, even only by small margins, or in less important areas, are automatically unfit for his role, despite much superior joining time, supports*, usability, situational usefulness, etc.?
They serve there purpose early on. Use them when they are useful. Then, when you get their replacement, phase in their replacement and drop them.
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Sain will have flat-out amazing offenses by the time Heath joins. I listed Lowen as joining in at level 16, so it's only fair to assume Sain could join at the same level. 60% STR Growth = God. As a level 16 Cavalier, he'll average 17.0 STR exactly. He'll also average 12.0 SPD. What part about that isn't an offensive machine? With Sain's monstrous STR growth, he maxes STR on average. Read the charts if you don't believe me, as soon as he hits 20/18, he'll average 25.0 STR exactly. He will be a superior mounted nuker relative to Heath when you recieve Heath, and with Axes and WTA, he'll actually be stronger than Heath. He also has comparable SPD, and higher LCK, too. He is completely outdone by Sain as a mounted nuker.
Sure, Sain is stronger than Heath, when you first get Heath. However, if you compare their endgame stats, is Sain really better as a mounted Nuker? No.
Heath will have more STR, much more SKL, and more SPD. All 3 offensive stats, and Heath is better. To to mention Heath has better DEF, so will be able to take hits better. So no, Sain is not a better nuker than Heath.
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But more importantly, Lowen can nuke to an extent and also provide an amazing defense.
Sure, when Lowen is about as worse offensively than Isadora. Don't believe me? Isadora barely loses in STR (by .4), and wins in SKL and SPD. In terms of offense, Lowen is one of the worst Paladins in the game.
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The other units all have time to develop amazing offensive stat sets by the time Heath joins. Even if they're not mounted, they will have nuking abilities that outshine Heath's. You'll already have enough mounted people who can cook enemies: Marcus, Lowen, and/or Sain.
Other units will be able to hit hard, but non-mounted units cannot fill the role of a mounted nuker. They simply cannot do it. They don't have the MOV.
Marcus can nuke early on, but later on, his stats are just average. Lowen is one of the worst paladins in the game, in terms of offensive firepower. And Heath eventually outclasses Sain in every Offensive stat.
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Berserkers, Swordmasters with Silver Swords, Killer Lance Cavaliers, and Killer Bow Archers* will massively damage Heath. Lowen negates critical more effectiely, and even soaks up the damage more efficiently.
Units will killer weapons are few. Berserks, Heath can deal with. Heath gets Swords, thus getting a nice WTA over them. Criticals don't matter if they miss. Swordmasters can be one-shotted by Heath's incredible offensive, so they don't really matter. With many high critical units, Heath can take them out before they can do any harm. Lowen, with his offensive power, can't. Lowen might have to soak up some damage. Heath will wipe them out before they get the chance.
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Lowen will have his superior LCK, DEF, and RES before Heath has time to develop his. Yes, in the endgame, DEF is comparable, but until the lategame, Lowen will trounce Heath defensively.
Around the time Heath hits promotion, his DEF will be fine. And it keeps growing. And since Heath will be lower leveled than everyone else, and he comes with a nice training weapon (a javelin), Heath will rise pretty quickly.
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With stagants and counting HM Bonus, Lowen only loses out by about 10 points. He has 19.1 STR, 17,1 SKL, and 19.1 SPD. He's not going to win any awards, sure, but he can damage and kill enemies in Rekka. Because he has more time to develop than Heath does, he'll boast superior offensive statistics until a few more chapters into the mid-lategame, where Heath can actually be used. And only in the endgame does Heath get defensive stats that can compete.
In offensive stats, Lowen is the worst paladin in the game! Heath develops faster than Lowen, due to coming at a lower level at the point of the game he does, and being on the same level as other units on the battlefield (therefore not completely outclasses). Heath's defensive stats may not compare to Lowen for a bit after you get him, but they will be passible very shortly, and get great as time goes on.
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It's enough to make him virtually unusable at the onset. On average (Link to RGPDL), it will take Bartre three levels to grow 1 SPD, just enough to not be 2x attacked by the most basic brigands in the game. As enemies get stronger, it will take Bartre many levels to outgrow being 2x attacked for good, and many more to be able to 2x attack himself. Granted, Lowen has 10% less growth, but starts out with 4 more at base and gets 1 more SPD at promotion. At 3 deviations down, Lowen has 10.9 SPD and Bartre has 8.8 SPD.
On average, it will take him 3 levels. However, he just needs one SPD point to not get double attacked. Bartre has a 40% chance of getting SPD on level 3. And in terms of growths, 40% is a decent growth. Averages reflect all playthroughs, but it is perfectly possible for Bartre to get SPD on his first level up. And then, it is 84% likely for Bartre to have 4 SPD by level 4. So in terms of avoiding the double attack, I don't think it will be that long till Bartre is free of it.
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Him taking damage "won't matter as much in the short-term"? Brigands will do around the same damage to him he dishes out. He can only survive about 3 attacks before he's done. And using a unit = investment.
If you use Dorcas with your group, and you do it effectively, Dorcas won't be surrounded and raped in one turn. If you are smart, he may get attacked from one direction. He won't be killing the enemy, allowing Eliwood to get the kill. Simply hitting an enemy unit doesn't take that much more EXP from the rest of your party, as you would be saving kills for later. However, my point about Dorcas is that he is perfectly able to soften up enemy units for Eliwood to finish off, which is what you claimed to be a virtue of Lowen.
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He has about the same durability has Dorcas against brigands. He runs the risk of OHKOing archers, mercenaries, and myrmidons.
And Dorcas won't be completely destroyed by them either. You use your men in groups, so that no one unit can be surrounded and killed. However, Oswin IS able to weaken the brigands for Eliwood to kill.
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Yes, but you want the hits to be effective. Lowen's blows are very effective at the beginning, usually causing about 10 points of damage safely. Rebecca is really only useful against the pegasi.
Not all enemies in the begining have insane DEF and HP, and Rebecca will be able to help out. Lowen may be safer and more effecitve, but whatever gets the job done helps level Eliwood, right?
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It's overkill, sure, but it's still better. Lowen also dodges the counterattacks more reliably from the brigands, and has the ATKDEF to take on lance users as well. He may not have the monopoly, but he is the most useful unit in that regard.
Alright, he doesn't have a monopoly. Other units can weaken units for Eliwood to raise himself. Lowen is not unique, or nessisary in that regard.
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He is unusable for about 3-4 chapters after you get him. [...] Said "placeholders" will function almost as good as Heath does in his roles, and come more powerful than him, requiring less training. [...] Wasted EXP is poor planning. [...] His various weaknesses*; to magic, to ballistae, archers, etc. actually make him a liability compared to a strong and balanced paladin or other capable unit.
I disagree to an extend about being unusable for 3-4 chapters. It may be difficult to use him for the Nabata chapters, but Heath will be able to function in the others.
Said placeholders function worse than Heath in his role. Fact.
Wasted EXP? Not really. They got EXP so they can function within the time you have them, and the time you use them.
His weakness to Magic and arrows make him a liability? First off, Heath is the best candidate for the Delphi Shield. You only get one, and that removes his disadvantage to archers. Now, they are a non-factor. And with mages, Lowen isn't much better than Heath. Heath is no liability. Heath can handle melee units better than most other characters in the game.
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Normally he'd recieve ~10 EXP per hit for a javelin strike, and due to reduced EXP in HHM, that's only about 5 EXP per strike. He'll eat his entire javelin just to level up once, which is definitely not enough to put him on par with the rest of your army.
Since Heath is the unit you would be raising, Heath would be the one getting the finishing blow, therefore getting more EXP from the kill. And he will get more EXP than you other units in their blows, since they would be at higher levels.
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Yes, Iron Weapons are obviously the most cost-effective weapon in the game and the most useful for the majority. However, in a pinch, it can really help to use an advanced weapon like a Longsword/Heavy Spear, or even shave off a use or two of a Silver Lance for a really tough boss. The Wind Sword and Light Brand swords can also be useful. Heath does not come with the ranks or flexibility of weapons to be able to manuever out of a tight spot.
Heath has the flexibity to use an Axereaver and a Heavy Spear. And there is no, practical situation where you would need the magic swords. If you play smart, you won't be in a pinch where you need a melee unit to get a WTA over a magic.
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Lances and Axes provide backup to his STR.
Yes, and due to the double-edged blade, his SKL problem comes back up.
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It's not that good, though. Low ACC + High WGT + Low uses for the lose.
Good enough to get WTA over axe users. And I may be wrong, but I believe 'reaver' weapons get double the WTA? I'm not sure.
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Examples of units that are more useful than Heath with dealing with said situation.
Examples that are more useful than Lowen as well in said situation.
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Enemies have low SPD and no luck. He can hit just fine with axes.
So I guess Lowen being able to get WTA over so many enemies doesn't mean crap anymore? If you can hit them anyway, who needs the WTA for a mere +1 damage (plus dodge)? And plus, even with Axes, Heath hits harder.
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Lowen has better evasion, DEF, and swords, plus a higher starting rank (may want S rank for +5% Hit and Crit), and so can handle said units better than Heath can.
Lower STR and SPD, however. Lowen may not even double attack them. Heath will hit them harder, and will hit them twice. Handle better, just because he can dodge better? I don't think so.
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It's still an advantage for him. He has better RES than most melee units, better than Heath for sure, and has the MOVE for a first strike advantage.
He also doesn't have the killing power to avoid the counter attack. Lowen may even get double attacked. And Lowen only averages 1.7 more RES than Heath. It is at least possible for Heath to OHKO a mage, but no so much for Lowen.
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You can phrase it however you like. Lowen has those advantages; to not make use of them is beyond retarded. Few units have Heath's STR, but Lowen can still cause good damage. His low SKL doesn't affect him too much since enemies suck at dodging.
Thanks for pointing out few units have Heath's STR, because it's true. Few units boost Heath's STR, SKL, and SPD. Lowen is the worst paladin in offense. Heath is an offensive monster, who has plenty of DEF and HP. Even with those "advantages", Lowen will not surpass Heath. Take all the WTA over enemies you want, Heath will still do better.
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1 less damage per round. In 30 rounds, that's 30 less damage taken. You get the idea. It's still his advantage.
1 Damage is trivial. Tanks like Lowen and Heath won't be bothered by the oneies and twoies.
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Heath desperately needs Swords if he wants to even try to obtain WTA a good amount of the time.
I think you may have missed my point. Lowen has holes in his STR and SKL, and therefore needs other weapons, and needs WTA, to cause damage. Heath has no such offensive holes, and therefore isn't as dependant on managing the weapon triangle as Lowen is.
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Lowen can get the first strike and WTA, and has better average RES than Heath, indeed more than many melee units. Of the melee units, he's among the best to take on mages. In chapters like Cog of Destiny, which is almost entirely magic units, you'll need melee units that can fight magic users. His high LCK which gives him superior evade (makes him good against Shamans/Druids) and anticritical (makes him good against Monks/Bishops) makes him even more effective.
You ignore the part about Lowen only having 1.7 more RES than Heath. Mages can handle other mages fine. But if you want to use melee units against mages, I would rather go with a melee unit that can prevent the enemy from hitting back; by killing them in a single hit. Heath is much more likely to do this.
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Heath is weak to one sword and an entire category of weapons, bows. Ballistae seriously fsck him up. They can literally OHKO him, or leave him with HP in the single digits.
Although a flaw of his class, this just justifies Heath as being the best Delphi Shield candadate. With that item, archers are done. And then it is only one sword, which Heath can get WTA over.
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Heath is also vulnerable to magic, more so than Lowen. By the time Lowen joins, he will at least have had the chance to grow some RES. At level 16, he averages 4.2, and within 1 deviation down, 2.5. Lowen gets better dodge and LCK and also WTA against mages, and as such is better equipped to handle them.
Right, when you get Lowen, he is a mere 2.2 over Heath. Both these units are vulnerable to magic, no matter how you try and spin it.
And I consede the support points to you. Lowen is better in supports. However, I would argue Heath doesn't really have a huge need of them, seeing as how Heath is already statistically fine.
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Merk
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Sep 13 2006, 07:28 PM
Post #8
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ザワザワ
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* points will be addressed after rebuttals.
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Yes, however, Heath comes with a free one. Nothing is free. Although using Heath's Javelin does not directly impact your funds rating, squandering its 20 uses on giving Heath a level or two means that you'll have to shell out 400G to obtain another. Indeed, the javelin he comes with may be best utilized being sent to storage immediately, to give to another needy unit who can use it with more expertise. Other units who you would have use javelins would already have them. And with a Javelin, Heath will be able to effectively attack and level up. The main purpose of Heath using a Javelin early is so he can build EXP without getting damaged in return. He can provide some backup damage, but it comes with either of two conditions. You could have your army sweep up one enemy section and leave one enemy weakened for Heath to kill. The disadvantage of this is that you wouldn't be using your main army to its maximum efficiency; you would be sacrificing your Tactics Rating to create a favorable position for Heath. The alternative is to carry on as normal, and have Heath strike at enemies more or less at random. The problem here is that using this method, you can't guarantee Heath's safety. He stands the risk of being swarmed by enemy units or being on the recieving end of a "lucky hit". Skill as a tactician is irrelevant; without using your other units to baby and protect Heath, some amount of risk and recklessness is inevitable. And, as Murphy's Law dictates, if something bad can happen, it will. The other lance users you have would be better served using Iron Lances, since you are not currently raising them. So would Heath, since Irons are more cost-effective and efficient in battle than Javelins. Unfortunately, doing so renders him vulnerable to counterattacks and swarming enemies, which will destroy him.
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Perhaps the same to an extent, but even still, Heath is less prone to it than Lowen. This is a fact. Leveling Heath is slightly safer than leveling Lowen, due to Heath being less prone to RNG rape. First of all, your definition of "safety" is shaky. Safer with respect to what, exactly? Is Heath safer than Fiora at fighting magic units? It implies that Heath outdoes Lowen in the areas that Lowen excels in. Secondly, the assertion that Heath is less vulnerable to the RNG is outright false: Although Heath comes in at a higher level, with higher base stats, and HHM bonus, his statistical advantage over Lowen at 3 deviations down is roughly the same as his statistical advantage over Lowen at normal averages. Heath wins HP, STR, SKL, SPD. Lowen wins LCK, DEF, RES, CON. End of story.
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Hector cannot form the function of a mount. After Hector's promotion, he doesn't get the same MOV bonus many other people get. He is still great, just not the role of a mount. Same with Oswin, who also doesn't have the SPD that Heath has, allowing Heath to have effectively double the attacking power on him. And Eliwood, while a good unit, does not have the statistical offensive firepower of Heath, nor his DEF to be a tank. None of those units can fill Heath's role, or fill it as well. The flaw here is the assumption that in order to be an effective nuker or tank, one must be a mounted unit as well. The top-tier offensive stat sets of Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector make them amazing nukers. Oswin can nuke to an extent, and has an over-the-top DEF advantage. Because the lords have PRF weapons, as well as time to level up and develop good stat sets and supports, they will outshine Heath and many other units as nukers. Oswin starts out with more DEF than Heath and grows it better. He is a much more efficient tank. Heath cannot perform the function of a nuker, as rushing in for him is tantamount to suicide. He cannot perform the function of a tank either, since he starts out with little dodge and not enough DEF to cover for that lack.
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You have an army of 12ish people. When you get Heath, you would only have to drop one, out of 12 people, to use him. Inefficient and poor planning on the tactician's part for investing in a unit that is to be dropped. However, Heath doesn't outperform other units enough to warrant their removal from the team; or he does, but he doesn't gain those advantages until so late in the game that they are meaningless.* And odds are, not all 12 of your units will be tons stronger than Heath. With 14 chapters to grow, Lowen will certainly be. The Lords, as well. Raven comes in with amazing stats for a level 5 Mercenary and stays useful, Lucius and Canas give you magical firepower, you have Oswin who is an Armored God, etc. Plenty of amazing units enter the scene before Heath does. Slip Heath in there (with great caution), give him a bit of action (but don't send him too far, or have him rush ahead like his 7 MOVE would allow him to), and watch him grow into a monster that will just barely outperform other units statistically. It's as simple as that. It is more the tactican's fault if they allow Heath to become a liability. The "decent tactician" argument can be applied both ways: Only an incompetent tactician would allow the liability that is Heath to have a valuable place in the army.
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They serve there purpose early on. Use them when they are useful. Then, when you get their replacement, phase in their replacement and drop them. I disagree immensely. If some unit X joins Y chapters earlier, with the chance to build Z more levels and Q more stats, R more weapon levels, T more supports, and is useful in U more situations, unit X is a more useful unit.
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Sure, Sain is stronger than Heath, when you first get Heath. However, if you compare their endgame stats, is Sain really better as a mounted Nuker? No. Heath will have more STR, much more SKL, and more SPD. All 3 offensive stats, and Heath is better. To to mention Heath has better DEF, so will be able to take hits better. So no, Sain is not a better nuker than Heath. The entire game is not the endgame, and Heath obtains his advantages relatively late because of his initial unusefulness*.
First, let's factor in that Sain, if used, will join several levels higher than Heath. I pushed for 16, and you acccepted it, so that's what we'll go by.
Level 16 Sain - Averages HP: 31.0 STR: 17.0 SKL: 9.3 SPD: 12.0 LCK: 9.3 DEF: 9.0 RES: 3.0 CON: 9 AID: 16 MOVE: 7
Level 7 Heath with Hard Mode Sample HP: 28(31) STR: 11(13) SKL: 8(9) SPD: 7(8) LUK: 7(7) DEF: 10(11) RES: 1(2) CON: 9 AID: 16 MOV: 7
Sain's advantage of 4 full points of STR justifies his loss of 2 DEF. Everywhere else is superior, or equal.
Now, assuming that Heath will grow more quickly due to coming in at a lower level (note that I'm ignoring the fact that he won't have the opportunity to grow until late in the game*), we'll compare them both at postpromotion point.
Level 1 Paladin Sain HP: 36.2 STR: 19.8 SKL: 11.6 SPD: 14.6 LCK: 10.6 DEF: 11.8 RES: 4.8 CON: 11 AID: 14 MOVE: 8
Level 1 Wyvern Lord Heath HP: 42.4(45.4) STR: 17.4(19.4) SKL: 16.5(17.5) SPD: 14.9(15.9) LCK: 9.6 DEF: 13.9(14.9) RES: 5.6 (6.6)
Heath wins in most stats, but in terms of nuking, they're still roughly even. Sain trades off a possible point of SPD in exchange for a possible point in STR.
I could go on and analyze both units at 20/5, 20/10, 20/15, and at 20/20, but that doesn't really add to my point. My point is that until both units hit about 20/5, Sain and Heath will be even in nuking or Sain will be better.
Now factor in that Sain joins in much earlier and thus will be much higher-levelled compared to Heath, and that Heath will be vulnerable for several chapters*, and it's clear that Sain will attain his power faster than Heath will attain his own.
Who's the better mounted nuker, again?
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Sure, when Lowen is about as worse offensively than Isadora. Don't believe me? Isadora barely loses in STR (by .4), and wins in SKL and SPD. In terms of offense, Lowen is one of the worst Paladins in the game. And in terms of defense, he is the best paladin in the game. However, especially in the early-game, his offenses are high and sufficient. Also, in Hard Mode, Defensive abilities > Offensive abilities. In Normal Mode, you can simply kill off enemies that pose a threat, and move through levels without fear. In Hard Mode, the enemies are more resilient and more numerous. You need characters that can withstand waves of attacks, and such characters are scarce; most characters are built with an offensive lean. Lowen is one such defensive unit, and one of the best choices due to his superior weapon control, high MOVE and AID/rescuing capability.
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Other units will be able to hit hard, but non-mounted units cannot fill the role of a mounted nuker. They simply cannot do it. They don't have the MOV. Heath can't fulfill his own role in the beginning, because sending him out at 7 MOVE will get him swarmed. Since he has to hang back and salvage EXP from only safe sources, other units outclass him in the offensive/MOVE combination. Only after several levels can Heath safely take flight, and by then, he will be obsoleted by other units that possess strong offensive abilities, like Sain, or units with amazing defensive abilities, like Lowen.
Marcus can nuke early on, but later on, his stats are just average. Flat-out amazing utility in the beginning, time to gain solid stats, time to support, one of the best sets of weapon levels in the game; all of these make him more useful to nuke with. Lowen is one of the worst paladins in the game, in terms of offensive firepower. His offensive firepower is in the beginning, at his bases. It does decline, but he can still do damage. I'm not trying to prove that he outclasses Heath offensively. And Heath eventually outclasses Sain in every Offensive stat. "Eventually" is too long of a time*; Sain is more useful for nuking for the majority of the game.
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Units will killer weapons are few. There are more in Hard Mode, though. Berserks, Heath can deal with. Heath gets Swords, thus getting a nice WTA over them. Criticals don't matter if they miss. Same can be said of Lowen, who ends up with higher Evade and the same WTA, at a higher weapon level to boot. Swordmasters can be one-shotted by Heath's incredible offensive, so they don't really matter. Lowen's DEF eats Myrmidons and Swordmasters. With many high critical units, Heath can take them out before they can do any harm. Lowen, with his offensive power, can't. Lowen might have to soak up some damage. He can do this more efficiently than Heath can. Heath will wipe them out before they get the chance. That only works if there is only one offending unit. Against a tide of units, nuking is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Around the time Heath hits promotion, his DEF will be fine. Fine by Nino's standards perhaps. Low by Lowen's standards. And it keeps growing. Heath's DEF grows at 30%. And since Heath will be lower leveled than everyone else, and he comes with a nice training weapon (a javelin), Heath will rise pretty quickly. If he can survive training*, sure.
20/1 Lowen has 16.2 DEF to Heath's 13.9(14.9). 20/5 Lowen has 17.8 to Heath's 15.1 (16.1). Etcetera. Lowen's DEF is consistently higher.
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In offensive stats, Lowen is the worst paladin in the game! In defensive stats, Lowen is the best paladin in the game! Heath develops faster than Lowen, due to coming at a lower level at the point of the game he does, and being on the same level as other units on the battlefield (therefore not completely outclasses). Heath's defensive stats may not compare to Lowen for a bit after you get him, but they will be passible very shortly, and get great as time goes on. This argument assumes that Heath is immediately usable soon after Kinship's Bond, which I will falsify*.
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On average, it will take him 3 levels. However, he just needs one SPD point to not get double attacked. Bartre has a 40% chance of getting SPD on level 3. That's 60% to not gain SPD, mind you, and 60 > 40. And in terms of growths, 40% is a decent growth. Averages reflect all playthroughs, but it is perfectly possible for Bartre to get SPD on his first level up. And then, it is 84% likely for Bartre to have 4 SPD by level 4. So in terms of avoiding the double attack, I don't think it will be that long till Bartre is free of it. The enemies grow in SPD, too, and 4 SPD isn't even enough to double the 1 SPD soldiers.
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If you use Dorcas with your group, and you do it effectively, Dorcas won't be surrounded and raped in one turn. He may be raped in 2 turns, 3 turns, 5 turns... If you are smart, he may get attacked from one direction. Still taking about 1/3 of HP in damage each time. He won't be killing the enemy, allowing Eliwood to get the kill. Simply hitting an enemy unit doesn't take that much more EXP from the rest of your party, as you would be saving kills for later. Hitting an enemy is still an investment in EXP. If you reduce an enemy's HP, you reduce the chances for other units to reduce its HP as well, and so you have taken some of the EXP that the enemy provides. However, my point about Dorcas is that he is perfectly able to soften up enemy units for Eliwood to finish off, which is what you claimed to be a virtue of Lowen. He is able to, but using him is riskier than using Lowen, as Lowen has more stable defense, along with WTA against brigands and higher evade.
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And Dorcas won't be completely destroyed by them either. You use your men in groups, so that no one unit can be surrounded and killed. The rate at which he'll take damage will exceed your supply of vulneraries as well as Serra's heal staff. He'll be badly damaged. However, Oswin IS able to weaken the brigands for Eliwood to kill. At the expense of taking a lot of damage. Oswin can handle it at first, but it builds up. Over several turns, he may be at breaking point.
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Not all enemies in the begining have insane DEF and HP, and Rebecca will be able to help out. Lowen may be safer and more effecitve, but whatever gets the job done helps level Eliwood, right?
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Alright, he doesn't have a monopoly. Other units can weaken units for Eliwood to raise himself. Lowen is not unique, or nessisary in that regard. He is completely necessary. Marcus will 2HKO automatically. Oswin and Dorcas can do damage, but also take damage back, and have less MOVE and control of the weapon triangle as well. Rebecca only provides some damage, and doesn't have stellar evade to begin with, and lacks the DEF to back that up, and can't strike back at melee range.
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I disagree to an extend about being unusable for 3-4 chapters. It may be difficult to use him for the Nabata chapters, but Heath will be able to function in the others. Will be proven after rebuttals.
Said placeholders function worse than Heath in his role. Fact. Said placeholders perform better than Heath in his role for the majority of the game, where they have greater stats and more utility value. Fact.
Wasted EXP? Not really. They got EXP so they can function within the time you have them, and the time you use them. EXP is a limited resource in HHM. If you don't want a unit for the long haul, don't bother with it.
His weakness to Magic and arrows make him a liability? First off, Heath is the best candidate for the Delphi Shield. "If I give an item to this character, s/he will suck less!" Where have we heard this before?
Yeah, Nino's CON is bad, but you could just use body rings!
Yeah, Oswin's MOVE is bad, but you could just use boots!
Yeah, Canas' SPD is bad, but you could just use speedwings!
My point: Using an item to remove a weakness is tantamount to using a stat booster: It just proves that the unit in question had a glaring flaw to begin with. You only get one (even less incentive to use it on him), and that removes his disadvantage to archers. Now, they are a non-factor. And with mages, Lowen isn't much better than Heath. Heath is no liability. Heath can handle melee units better than most other characters in the game. Not until he's gained quite a few levels; until then, other units outperform him in melee.
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Since Heath is the unit you would be raising, Heath would be the one getting the finishing blow, therefore getting more EXP from the kill. And he will get more EXP than you other units in their blows, since they would be at higher levels. Still not that much, he may only be able to grow 1-2 levels with that Javelin.
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Heath has the flexibity to use an Axereaver and a Heavy Spear. Inferior weapons compared to Iron in terms of cost-effectiveness. And there is no, practical situation where you would need the magic swords. There is no disadvantage to possessing them, either. If you play smart, you won't be in a pinch where you need a melee unit to get a WTA over a magic. They're probably more useful against melee units who have shit RES, true. It's not really a matter of playing intelligently. It's an advantage that Lowen will always have. Whether you use it or not is your decision.
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Yes, and due to the double-edged blade, his SKL problem comes back up. Enemies have shit SPD and nonexistant LCK. He has 100% to hit with swords right off the bat, too.
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Good enough to get WTA over axe users. And I may be wrong, but I believe 'reaver' weapons get double the WTA? I'm not sure. Confirmed. But the same can be said about the Lancereaver and Axereaver that Lowen can also wield, and later, the Swordreaver/Slayer.
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Examples that are more useful than Lowen as well in said situation. Lowen has swords, too, good Evade, and even lances. He's one of the most useful units in that situation, actually.
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So I guess Lowen being able to get WTA over so many enemies doesn't mean crap anymore? Still helpful. If you can hit them anyway, who needs the WTA for a mere +1 damage (plus dodge)? And plus, even with Axes, Heath hits harder. Who doesn't need it? Whether or not it counts for a lot, it's still there. Yes, Heath is better at killing things.
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Lower STR and SPD, however. Higher LCK and DEF. Lowen may not even double attack them. Heath will hit them harder, and will hit them twice. Handle better, just because he can dodge better? I don't think so. It's not just a matter of dodge. Heath's offensive stats won't substantially better than Lowen's until lategame.*
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He also doesn't have the killing power to avoid the counter attack. He does have the DEF/LCK to easily survive the counterattack. Lowen may even get double attacked. By what, a swordmaster? And Lowen only averages 1.7 more RES than Heath. It is at least possible for Heath to OHKO a mage, but no so much for Lowen. It's at least possible for Lowen to get WTA over a mage, but not at all for Heath.
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Thanks for pointing out few units have Heath's STR, because it's true. Few units also have his holes in LCK and RES as well as his weakness to arrows. Few units boost Heath's STR, SKL, and SPD. Many do, actually; Raven, Lucius, just two examples of units whose offensive abilities easily outstrip Heath's until lategame. Lowen is the worst paladin in offense. And the best in defense. Heath is an offensive monster, who has plenty of DEF and HP. The "plenty of DEF" doesn't come until lategame. Even with those "advantages", Lowen will not surpass Heath. Take all the WTA over enemies you want, Heath will still do better. Not as a nuker, but as a defensive powerhouse. You'll meet few units who have the sturdiness of Lowen; when you find them, embrace them, for they will make surviving and thriving in HHM much easier due to their capacity to protect your army and withstand many attacks.
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I think you may have missed my point. Lowen has holes in his STR and SKL, and therefore needs other weapons, and needs WTA, to cause damage. Heath has no such offensive holes, and therefore isn't as dependant on managing the weapon triangle as Lowen is. Lowen does indeed have holes in his offensives. Heath doesn't have Lowen's weapon control. It's as simple as that.
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You ignore the part about Lowen only having 1.7 more RES than Heath. Mages can handle other mages fine. But if you want to use melee units against mages, I would rather go with a melee unit that can prevent the enemy from hitting back; by killing them in a single hit. Heath is much more likely to do this. I would rather use a unit that could withstand a sea of attacks; even if Lowen's advantage here is marginal at best, he still is more well equipped than Heath at dealing with constant and frequent attacks.
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Although a flaw of his class, this just justifies Heath as being the best Delphi Shield candadate. Florina, Fiora, Farina, and Vaida can all compete. With that item, archers are done. And then it is only one sword, which Heath can get WTA over. Effectiveness > WTA in a fight.
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Right, when you get Lowen, he is a mere 2.2 over Heath. Both these units are vulnerable to magic, no matter how you try and spin it. But Lowen is less vulnerable to magic, no matter how much you want to downplay it.
Situational Usefulness
Throughout my entire section of rebuttals, my main point was that Heath can't immediately achieve his amazing stats due to vulnerability in chapters soon after he joins. I will now prove that point to back up my claims, as well as proving why Lowen can be more useful, and then backtrack to chapter 12 to explain how Lowen is useful in the chapters before Heath, about half of the game which can't just simply be ignored.
Chapter 22 - Kinship's Bond: Obviously, Heath comes underlevelled compared to the rest of your army. Here, he begins to train up, but he has to watch out for two ballistae, constant mage reinforcements, swordreaving axes, and a decently strong Paladin boss. Lowen can fight the axemen, eat the ballista shots, and fight well against Eubans. Chapter 23 - Living Legend: Despite being able to move at full efficiency, the level is composed of mages and warriors, two classes designed to destroy Heath. He is useless in this level, though, granted, so is Lowen, moreso to the immense MOVE penalty. Chapter 23x - Genesis: Full of long range magic that devastates Heath, and many magic users in general. Lowen can at least dodge and may have slightly higher RES, though it's probably not a good idea to bring him, either. Chapter 24 - Four-Fanged Offense: (Note: I'd favor Linus' version, as Geitz > Wallace, and you probably want your Lords to be high levelled.) Two long-range sages, Heros with great offensives, Geitz who can rape Heath, a massive amount of corsairs, and a ballista. Heath's nightmare. Chapter 25 - Crazed Beast: A leg of all axe-users, and a leg of all light magic users. The remaining leg of lance users is best dealt with by powerful axemen. Did I mention the two ballistae at the top of the map? Lowen has axes, and swords, and so can handle two legs of the map, and lacks the ballista weakness. Chapter 26 - Unfulfilled Heart: Mages to the west, Nomads, and Brigands will all give Heath a hard time. Lowen can easily own nomads and brigands. Chapter 27 - Pale Flower of Darkness: Physical version favors both, magical version screws both. Chapter 28 - Battle Before Dawn: Chock full of mages, monks, shamans, and Ursula packing Bolting. Chapter 28x - Night of Farewells: Mages, Long-range sages/bishops/druids, Pirates and Berserkers, Nomad Lords, Bolting Sonia. Chapter 29 - Cog of Destiny: Basically all magic units. Chapter 30 - The Berserker: Plenty of mage units and archers. Chapter 31 - Sands of Time: Full of archers, an entire section of shamans and druids, Staff-using druids, and a sniper boss. Chapter 31x - Battle Preparations: Well, Vaida is the most useful unit in the game for this chapter, but I'll concede that Heath is useful here, too. Chapter 32 - Several ballista and magic users, long range and staff promoted magic users, and a Bolting Boss. Warriors, too. Chapter 32x - Almost entirely berserkers. Chapter 33 - Light: So how much has Heath grown by now? Realistically, you won't be taking either unit into this chapter.
Now, to prove Lowen's usefulness:
Chapter 12 - Birds of a Feather: The secret book, hitting/killing bandits, hitting/killing Peg Knights, getting to the store. Chapter 13 - In Search of Truth: Get the torch, get the mine, lure Guy, kill Peg Knights, and kill soldiers. Chapter 13x - The Peddler Merlinus: Rescue Merlinus, visit village, kill nomads, kill brigands, tank at mercenaries, provide a wall. Chapter 14 - False Friends: Visit north or south village, frontlines, kill pirates and peg knights. Chapter 15 - Talons Alight: Get matthew safely to the treasure room, sit on the throne, take Sealen's shots. Chapter 16 - Noble Lady of Caelin: Frontlines, protect merlinus, both villages, rush ahead to protect Lyn's group. Chapter 17 - Help Marcus nail the thief, rescue soldiers, move people around, guard merlinus. Chapter 17x - Fight the super-pirates, fight Damien, or move north and slaughter the normal pirates. Chapter 18 - Lots of sword units to tank at, as well as peg knights that need slaying. Chapter 19 - Move quickly enough to get 19x, Kill pirates and peg knights, deal damage to Uhai with a lance. Chapter 19xx - Rush ahead to stop thieves Chapter 20 - Rush ahead to get Legault, fight the other cavaliers, provide a physical wall. Chapter 21 - Visit houses, fight evenly with Wyverns, slay Oleg with a sword.
A bit rushed, but fourth post.
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s
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Sentenal
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Sep 14 2006, 05:54 PM
Post #9
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Nothing is free. Although using Heath's Javelin does not directly impact your funds rating, squandering its 20 uses on giving Heath a level or two means that you'll have to shell out 400G to obtain another. Indeed, the javelin he comes with may be best utilized being sent to storage immediately, to give to another needy unit who can use it with more expertise.
It is a free weapon, that perfectly suits what Heath needs to do when you first get him.
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He can provide some backup damage, but it comes with either of two conditions. You could have your army sweep up one enemy section and leave one enemy weakened for Heath to kill. The disadvantage of this is that you wouldn't be using your main army to its maximum efficiency; you would be sacrificing your Tactics Rating to create a favorable position for Heath. The alternative is to carry on as normal, and have Heath strike at enemies more or less at random. The problem here is that using this method, you can't guarantee Heath's safety. He stands the risk of being swarmed by enemy units or being on the recieving end of a "lucky hit". Skill as a tactician is irrelevant; without using your other units to baby and protect Heath, some amount of risk and recklessness is inevitable. And, as Murphy's Law dictates, if something bad can happen, it will.
Such negativity. Is it really that difficult to use your units in groups? Is it really that difficult to make use of every unit you are given? Any problems you have using Heath is no more Heath's fault than the fault of the tactican. You have your army, it is your job to make the best use of everyone. If you judge a situation where Heath may get in trouble, judge the pros and cons and make your choice. It is not that hard.
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So would Heath, since Irons are more cost-effective and efficient in battle than Javelins. Unfortunately, doing so renders him vulnerable to counterattacks and swarming enemies, which will destroy him.
Wait, I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth right now. First, I say other units would be better suited for Iron Lances when you first get Heath. They would not be a lower level unit like Heath. They can use them and not suffer greatly due to it. Now, you say Heath would be better suited to an Iron Lance as well, but you also say that doing so, would destroy him? So, Heath is suited to use a weapon to destroy him? What sort of nonsense is this?
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First of all, your definition of "safety" is shaky. Safer with respect to what, exactly? Is Heath safer than Fiora at fighting magic units? It implies that Heath outdoes Lowen in the areas that Lowen excels in. Secondly, the assertion that Heath is less vulnerable to the RNG is outright false: Although Heath comes in at a higher level, with higher base stats, and HHM bonus, his statistical advantage over Lowen at 3 deviations down is roughly the same as his statistical advantage over Lowen at normal averages. Heath wins HP, STR, SKL, SPD. Lowen wins LCK, DEF, RES, CON. End of story.
Safer in total stats. We were discussing RNG raping, and which unit is more solid, or safe to train up, in relation to that. Heath is a safer unit to use in that, as his stats at 3 deviations down is higher than Lowen's at 3 deviations down. He IS safer, because his stats are better at three deviations down. Lowen would be weaker as an RNG screwed unit than Heath. Heath also has better guaranteed stats! This is fact!
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The flaw here is the assumption that in order to be an effective nuker or tank, one must be a mounted unit as well. The top-tier offensive stat sets of Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector make them amazing nukers. Oswin can nuke to an extent, and has an over-the-top DEF advantage. Because the lords have PRF weapons, as well as time to level up and develop good stat sets and supports, they will outshine Heath and many other units as nukers. Oswin starts out with more DEF than Heath and grows it better. He is a much more efficient tank. Heath cannot perform the function of a nuker, as rushing in for him is tantamount to suicide. He cannot perform the function of a tank either, since he starts out with little dodge and not enough DEF to cover for that lack.
No, I see the role of a mounted Nuker and a Nuker to be different roles. And Heath outclasses Oswin in offense. STR isn't the only offensive stat.
However, Heath the only time when Heath cannot rush in and kill things is when you first get him. Need we post Heath's stats again? Heath has incredible STR, SKL, and SPD. He will kill what he attacks. Heath is a great tank as well, with more than enough DEF and HP to stop attacks. In regards to his class's weaknesses, it is simply a tactican judgement you have to make, whether to send him into a sea of mages, or a sea of melee units. Enemies tend to group, so it's not that hard.
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Inefficient and poor planning on the tactician's part for investing in a unit that is to be dropped. However, Heath doesn't outperform other units enough to warrant their removal from the team; or he does, but he doesn't gain those advantages until so late in the game that they are meaningless.
Says you. I say Heath's statistical superiority more than warrant's their removal for ease later on in the game.
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With 14 chapters to grow, Lowen will certainly be. The Lords, as well. Raven comes in with amazing stats for a level 5 Mercenary and stays useful, Lucius and Canas give you magical firepower, you have Oswin who is an Armored God, etc. Plenty of amazing units enter the scene before Heath does. Slip Heath in there (with great caution)
Okay, so the units you have listed here, we have 8 units. Enough to fit Heath in there.
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just barely outperform other units statistically.
Bullshit. Heath completely outclasses other units that would fit his role. I'm not going to do a stat by stat comparison between Heath and every other mount and flyer, but Heath is superior in the role of a mount, with who can take hits, and kill things by looking at them.
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The "decent tactician" argument can be applied both ways: Only an incompetent tactician would allow the liability that is Heath to have a valuable place in the army.
Only an incompetent tactician would have Heath as a liability. You use every unit to their fullest. However, some units have more potiental than other units, and therefore should become a main part of your army. Such as Heath.
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I disagree immensely. If some unit X joins Y chapters earlier, with the chance to build Z more levels and Q more stats, R more weapon levels, T more supports, and is useful in U more situations, unit X is a more useful unit.
Unit X is a unit that is useful for the time when they are around. Marcus is incredibly useful early game. Does he play such a role endgame? No. When a unit shines, use them. When you get a unit that shines later on, use them rather than obsolete early-game units.
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The entire game is not the endgame, and Heath obtains his advantages relatively late because of his initial unusefulness*.
Sain is useful when you first get him, and before you get Heath. Heath is useful in the latter part of the game.
@Level 16 Sain vs Initial Heath: Their HP is equal. Sain has a 4 point lead in STR, so good for him. SKL, they are practically equal. In SPD, Sain wins by 4, so he will double attack more people than Heath will. Initially. In LUK, Sain wins 2.3, however doesn't really make a huge difference. Heath wins in DEF, and is 1 behind in RES.
I think this is fine for a unit just coming in. Sain can hold his own at that point in the game. Really, the biggest difference between these two at this point is that Sain will hit harder at first. Heath, with more DEF than Sain, will be a better defensive unit. Looks like the arguement that Heath is much weaker than all your other units when you first get him doesn't hold as much water now! And with Heath's STR and SPD growths, they will get to a good level in no time.
@PostPromotion stats: Heath is better (or practically tied) in every single offensive stat, and almost every Defensive stat, other than being down by 1 in LUK. Now, why in God's name would you want Sain now instead of Heath? Heath has already passed him in practically all stats, and in the ones he hasn't, he is incredibly close.
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Now factor in that Sain joins in much earlier and thus will be much higher-levelled compared to Heath, and that Heath will be vulnerable for several chapters*, and it's clear that Sain will attain his power faster than Heath will attain his own.
Who's the better mounted nuker, again?
If we accepted that Sain would be about level 16 when you get Heath, Sain is not that far ahead of Heath when you first get him. And Heath is perfectly capaible of close those differences in stats, due to his growths. And when you factor in that Heath turns out much better than Sain in most stats, why not use him? He is only slightly below Sain when you first get him, and basically only in STR and SPD.
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And in terms of defense, he is the best paladin in the game. However, especially in the early-game, his offenses are high and sufficient. Also, in Hard Mode, Defensive abilities > Offensive abilities. In Normal Mode, you can simply kill off enemies that pose a threat, and move through levels without fear. In Hard Mode, the enemies are more resilient and more numerous. You need characters that can withstand waves of attacks, and such characters are scarce; most characters are built with an offensive lean. Lowen is one such defensive unit, and one of the best choices due to his superior weapon control, high MOVE and AID/rescuing capability.
I understand Defensive abilities are great. They keep your characters alive. Isn't it great that Heath, another unit with great defensive abilities, also comes with incredible offensive abilities? Defense may be more important than offense, but being great in both is better than only being great in one. Heath is great in both offense and defense, Lowen only in Defense.
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Heath can't fulfill his own role in the beginning, because sending him out at 7 MOVE will get him swarmed. Since he has to hang back and salvage EXP from only safe sources, other units outclass him in the offensive/MOVE combination. Only after several levels can Heath safely take flight, and by then, he will be obsoleted by other units that possess strong offensive abilities, like Sain, or units with amazing defensive abilities, like Lowen.
Heath apparently, if we are comparing Sain's level 16 stats to Heath, is prefectly capiable of handling himself and being a somewhat useful member of your army when you first get him. His starting DEF is solid enough, and his Offense picks up quickly.
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Flat-out amazing utility in the beginning, time to gain solid stats, time to support, one of the best sets of weapon levels in the game; all of these make him more useful to nuke with.
Yes; early game. Not so much later on, when so many other units surpass Marcus, and he becomes just average.
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His offensive firepower is in the beginning, at his bases. It does decline, but he can still do damage. I'm not trying to prove that he outclasses Heath offensively.
Offensive firepower at the begining is again outclassed by many units. Hector, Oswin, and Marcus are all better then, and eventually Bartre as well when he gets the SPD.
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Same can be said of Lowen, who ends up with higher Evade and the same WTA, at a higher weapon level to boot.
I'm not arguing that Lowen cannot take Berserks, rather, that Heath can handle them. Both units can.
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Lowen's DEF eats Myrmidons and Swordmasters.
As does Heath's, although Heath isn't as much a gulton as Lowen is in that regard. Still more than enough DEF to handle them with ease.
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That only works if there is only one offending unit. Against a tide of units, nuking is just the tip of the iceberg.
There normally aren't tides of units with killer weapons. Heath has the offense to kill the dangerous unit, and the DEF to stand up to his lackys.
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Fine by Nino's standards perhaps. Low by Lowen's standards.
14 DEF (well, 13.9) is low? Some units in the game don't even average that much DEF at 20/20!
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20/1 Lowen has 16.2 DEF to Heath's 13.9(14.9). 20/5 Lowen has 17.8 to Heath's 15.1 (16.1). Etcetera. Lowen's DEF is consistently higher.
Good for him. Fact is, Heath's DEF at all those levels are still higher than most other units in the game. Lowen's DEF is higher, but Heath's DEF is still great.
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He may be raped in 2 turns, 3 turns, 5 turns...[...] Still taking about 1/3 of HP in damage each time.[...] Hitting an enemy is still an investment in EXP. If you reduce an enemy's HP, you reduce the chances for other units to reduce its HP as well, and so you have taken some of the EXP that the enemy provides.[...] He is able to, but using him is riskier than using Lowen, as Lowen has more stable defense, along with WTA against brigands and higher evade.
When you are at least half-way compedent, you can use him without fear of dieing. Good tacticans don't get their unit's killed. And as I've argued, Dorcas can weaken units for Eliwood. The ammount of risk involved is irrelavant, as both units can do it, and neither unit should die while doing so.
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That's 60% to not gain SPD, mind you, and 60 > 40.
Yes, but in terms of growth percentages, 40% growth is a reliable growth.
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The enemies grow in SPD, too, and 4 SPD isn't even enough to double the 1 SPD soldiers.
They do, but right now, double attacking isn't the subject matter we are discussing. We are discussing how long will it take for Bartre to not be doubled himself. Once he is past the level where he will be double attacked, Bartre can take the role of weakening units for Eliwood to kill as well.
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He is completely necessary. Marcus will 2HKO automatically. Oswin and Dorcas can do damage, but also take damage back, and have less MOVE and control of the weapon triangle as well. Rebecca only provides some damage, and doesn't have stellar evade to begin with, and lacks the DEF to back that up, and can't strike back at melee range.
yasure. I've already addressed this stuff.
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Said placeholders perform better than Heath in his role for the majority of the game, where they have greater stats and more utility value. Fact.
A logical falacy. Other units are around for the majority of the game, while Heath isn't. Heath's time while he is in the game, he becomes very useful, while the other's decline.
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EXP is a limited resource in HHM. If you don't want a unit for the long haul, don't bother with it.
Look at it like this. True, EXP is limited. But let us say you are going to drop someone for Heath. Using that unit up till then won't effect it any. Not like Heath can pirate all the EXP out of old units he replaces.
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"If I give an item to this character, s/he will suck less!" Where have we heard this before?
Yeah, Nino's CON is bad, but you could just use body rings!
Yeah, Oswin's MOVE is bad, but you could just use boots!
Yeah, Canas' SPD is bad, but you could just use speedwings!
My point: Using an item to remove a weakness is tantamount to using a stat booster: It just proves that the unit in question had a glaring flaw to begin with.
Name one better candidate for the Delphi Shield. Items are ment to be used. Not using them squanders them. You get one, and you should use it. And why not on Heath?
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Inferior weapons compared to Iron in terms of cost-effectiveness.
I love how you go back and forth like that. One second, you praise Lowen for using nitch weapons like Heavy Spears, magic swords, etc, but when I mention Heath being able to use weapons like that, they are inferior weapons.
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There is no disadvantage to possessing them, either.
Inferior weapons compared to Iron in terms of cost-effectiveness.
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He does have the DEF/LCK to easily survive the counterattack.
Heath has the DEF to easily survive the counter attack if they survive Heath's first hit.
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It's at least possible for Lowen to get WTA over a mage, but not at all for Heath.
If Heath kills a mage in one blow, there is 0% chance that mage will damage Heath. Even if Lowen gets WTA (which he will rarely get, due to the rariety of the weapons in question) over mages, there is still a solid chance of Lowen to take damage.
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Many do, actually; Raven, Lucius, just two examples of units whose offensive abilities easily outstrip Heath's until lategame.
You keep saying late game, when Heath's starting offensive stats are passible, and grow far beyond those of others.
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Not as a nuker, but as a defensive powerhouse. You'll meet few units who have the sturdiness of Lowen; when you find them, embrace them, for they will make surviving and thriving in HHM much easier due to their capacity to protect your army and withstand many attacks.
And Heath, with his great HP and DEF, and comparible RES to Lowen, is not a defensive powerhouse?
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Lowen does indeed have holes in his offensives. Heath doesn't have Lowen's weapon control. It's as simple as that.
Lowen's control doesn't come near to equalizing the difference here.
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Florina, Fiora, Farina, and Vaida can all compete.
All listed units are inferior to Heath, some by a large degree.
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Effectiveness > WTA in a fight.
Well then, I guess your point about Lowen being able to get WTA over the swords, spears, and axes that appear throughout the game that are effective against Lowen means nothing. With the Delphi Shield, Lowen has more things to worry about than Heath.
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But Lowen is less vulnerable to magic, no matter how much you want to downplay it.
Less vulnerable to a degree of insignificance.
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Chapter 22 - Kinship's Bond: Obviously, Heath comes underlevelled compared to the rest of your army. Here, he begins to train up, but he has to watch out for two ballistae, constant mage reinforcements, swordreaving axes, and a decently strong Paladin boss. Lowen can fight the axemen, eat the ballista shots, and fight well against Eubans.
Swordreaving Axes? Heath gets WTA over them. Those are axes that go the opposite way on the weapon triangle, right? At that point, Heath isn't ready to fight the boss, but he can move around and fight enough to start leveling up. You just have to be smart about it.
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Chapter 23 - Living Legend: Despite being able to move at full efficiency, the level is composed of mages and warriors, two classes designed to destroy Heath. He is useless in this level, though, granted, so is Lowen, moreso to the immense MOVE penalty. Chapter 23x - Genesis: Full of long range magic that devastates Heath, and many magic users in general. Lowen can at least dodge and may have slightly higher RES, though it's probably not a good idea to bring him, either.
Yeah, both units are pretty much worthless in the Nabata levels.
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Chapter 24 - Four-Fanged Offense: (Note: I'd favor Linus' version, as Geitz > Wallace, and you probably want your Lords to be high levelled.) Two long-range sages, Heros with great offensives, Geitz who can rape Heath, a massive amount of corsairs, and a ballista. Heath's nightmare.
Just keep Heath away from the sages, and fighting various units around. You recruit Geitz, so you wouldn't be sending him to fight anyway. Heath can get WTA over Heros, with his lance and axe reaver (though, I think those are Sword Heros, so the axereaver is meh.). Heath can grow in this stage as well.
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Chapter 25 - Crazed Beast: A leg of all axe-users, and a leg of all light magic users. The remaining leg of lance users is best dealt with by powerful axemen. Did I mention the two ballistae at the top of the map? Lowen has axes, and swords, and so can handle two legs of the map, and lacks the ballista weakness.
Heath won't have the distadvantage with the leg of lance users, however. However, you neglected to mention something Heath can do fine in this chapter, which Lowen can't; Heath can get to the village to save it.
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Chapter 26 - Unfulfilled Heart: Mages to the west, Nomads, and Brigands will all give Heath a hard time. Lowen can easily own nomads and brigands.
Heath can save the village, or fly between the moutains to help the Lord's group, or the other one. Lowen can't cross mountains. And Heath can fight the Wyverns in this map.
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Chapter 27 - Pale Flower of Darkness: Physical version favors both, magical version screws both.
However, this map has snow. This reduces horse units to a movement of 2. Heath can move 3 or 4, depending if he is promoted or not.
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Chapter 28 - Battle Before Dawn: Chock full of mages, monks, shamans, and Ursula packing Bolting.
So Lowen wouldn't be doing well there either. There are plenty of melee units in this chapter for Heath to fight, however.
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Chapter 28x - Night of Farewells: Mages, Long-range sages/bishops/druids, Pirates and Berserkers, Nomad Lords, Bolting Sonia.
Also has that annoying water. Lowen gets hindered by it, Heath doesn't. Also has Heros and Wyverns for Heath to fight.
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Chapter 29 - Cog of Destiny: Basically all magic units.
Bad for both Lowen and Heath, eh? But when Vaida appears, so do Wyverns, which Heath can handle.
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Chapter 30 - The Berserker: Plenty of mage units and archers.
By this time, you also have the sexy Delphi Shield. You have since 28. And Lowen wouldn't do much better against the mage units. Also, since you can only bring one unit other than Hector, why not a unit that could use some more levels? Like Heath.
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Chapter 31 - Sands of Time: Full of archers, an entire section of shamans and druids, Staff-using druids, and a sniper boss.
The Delphi Shield you already have should help Heath a bit.
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Chapter 32 - Several ballista and magic users, long range and staff promoted magic users, and a Bolting Boss. Warriors, too.
Heath would have the Delphi Shield, and probably promoted, giving him Swords. And as always, mages are bad for both Heath and Lowen. Plus, there are plenty of other units for Heath to fight as well, like Wyverns, Cavalier/Paladins, etc etc.
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Chapter 32x - Almost entirely berserkers.
Good thing Heath gets swords, right?
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Chapter 33 - Light: So how much has Heath grown by now? Realistically, you won't be taking either unit into this chapter.
I've been able to train up Heath to take to this chapter, though I admit that Heath won't play as big a role as Hector, or Athos, or someone like that.
Seems like alot of your commentary on levels ignores the fact that most levels don't consist of primarily mages/axes. Lances are the most common enemy unit later on, and Heath can handle them.
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Chapter 12 - Birds of a Feather: The secret book, hitting/killing bandits, hitting/killing Peg Knights, getting to the store.
Someone else can get the Secret Book, its not hard. Rebecca can take the pegasus knights, and other people can fight the bandits. One unit is much more useful here; Marcus.
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Chapter 13 - In Search of Truth: Get the torch, get the mine, lure Guy, kill Peg Knights, and kill soldiers.
One unit is much more useful here; Marcus. Well, maybe not at getting Guy. Have Oswin do that, as he is better at it.
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Chapter 13x - The Peddler Merlinus: Rescue Merlinus, visit village, kill nomads, kill brigands, tank at mercenaries, provide a wall.
Marcus can rescue Merlinus without worrying about the penality, and get to the village. Hector and Oswin can provide walls just as easy, not to mention killing nomads/brigands/mercs.
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Chapter 14 - False Friends: Visit north or south village, frontlines, kill pirates and peg knights.
Marcus can visit either village. Hector, Oswin, or Marcus can dominate the frontlines. Guy can handle the pirates, and Bartre can handle the Pegs.
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Chapter 15 - Talons Alight: Get matthew safely to the treasure room, sit on the throne, take Sealen's shots.
Marcus can do all this better.
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Chapter 16 - Noble Lady of Caelin: Frontlines, protect merlinus, both villages, rush ahead to protect Lyn's group.
Hector, Bartre, Oswin, Marcus, and Eliwood can take the front lines. Oswin and Marcus can protect Merlinus better. Marcus can get to the villages faster, and protect Lyn's group better.
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Chapter 17 - Help Marcus nail the thief, rescue soldiers, move people around, guard merlinus.
Other units can nail the theif, as you got Sain and Kent now. Marcus can rescue soldiers, move people around, and Marcus or Oswin can guard Merlinus.
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Chapter 17x - Fight the super-pirates, fight Damien, or move north and slaughter the normal pirates.
Marcus can do it better.
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Chapter 18 - Lots of sword units to tank at, as well as peg knights that need slaying.
Marcus, Oswin, Sain, hell, even Hector can do that. Eliwood and Bartre to an extend as well.
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Chapter 19 - Move quickly enough to get 19x, Kill pirates and peg knights, deal damage to Uhai with a lance.
Marcus does this better.
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Chapter 19xx - Rush ahead to stop thieves
Any other mount can do this as well, and some (Marcus) can do it better.
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Chapter 20 - Rush ahead to get Legault, fight the other cavaliers, provide a physical wall.
Marcus can rush ahead to get Legault. Hector, Oswin, Bartre, and Sain can fight the cavaliers. Hector and Oswin can provide a wall.
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Chapter 21 - Visit houses, fight evenly with Wyverns, slay Oleg with a sword.
Any of your mounts can visit houses, and some fight those wyverns easier, not to mention there are units that can kill Oleg better.
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Merk
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Sep 29 2006, 09:17 PM
Post #10
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ザワザワ
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* points will be addressed after rebuttals.
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It is a free weapon, that perfectly suits what Heath needs to do when you first get him. The Javelin is not a free item. It costs you 400 G in replacement/maintenance, as you would probably want it to be an asset for him to have at all times. It does allow Heath to provide support damage. The range bonus from the Javelin is not enough to offset the risk of him using it because it still requires him to be within the attack range of one or moe foes who will damage him severely at the point he enters.
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Such negativity. Is it really that difficult to use your units in groups? Is it really that difficult to make use of every unit you are given? Any problems you have using Heath is no more Heath's fault than the fault of the tactican. You have your army, it is your job to make the best use of everyone. If you judge a situation where Heath may get in trouble, judge the pros and cons and make your choice. It is not that hard. The entire game is a situation where Heath may get into trouble, as he possesses myriad weaknesses (bows, ballistae, magic) right from the outset and doesn't outgrow them. Weighing the pros and the cons, it is clear that the risk of using him outweighs the possible benefit of his immediate support fire or future "nuking" abilities.
The problem is, Heath's "best use" is a good few chapters late, as at around this time, the game shifts from mainly melee users to more and more magic users. If he had come about five or six chapters earlier, he would have been an amazingly useful unit.
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Wait, I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth right now. First, I say other units would be better suited for Iron Lances when you first get Heath. They would not be a lower level unit like Heath. They can use them and not suffer greatly due to it. Now, you say Heath would be better suited to an Iron Lance as well, but you also say that doing so, would destroy him? So, Heath is suited to use a weapon to destroy him? What sort of nonsense is this? What I'm saying is that there are opportunity costs involving Heath. You can have him use the Javelin, to have him scrounge for EXP, and use a less cost-efficient and battle-ready weapon, but keep him at a safe distance. Or, you can have him use an Iron Lance, to get more direct EXP, and have a more cost-efficient and powerful item, but put him in the danger zone. Both setups have pros and cons.
However, with units that are already powerful and effective, that require no babying in that chapter, they should equip Iron Lances. Because they are already sturdy, they don't need to worry as much about being in the strike zone; they can handle it. In other words, they don't have to sacrifice cost-effectiveness and overall battle performance in exhange for safety. Heath does.
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Safer in total stats. We were discussing RNG raping, and which unit is more solid, or safe to train up, in relation to that. Heath is a safer unit to use in that, as his stats at 3 deviations down is higher than Lowen's at 3 deviations down. He IS safer, because his stats are better at three deviations down. Lowen would be weaker as an RNG screwed unit than Heath. Heath also has better guaranteed stats! This is fact! I did a little further digging, and I found that you're right! Oh snap! Let's see. From his averages to three deviations down, Lowen loses exactly 53.4 stat points. Heath loses exactly 41.4 stat points (Note: I didn't factor in HHM Bonus, as he would have that at normal averages as well as at 3 deviations down, so they effectively cancel each other out, not to mention the fact that you can't predict or calculate them). So Heath is safer by 12.0 stat points, yarly?
http://rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Lowen http://rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Heath
Adding up the SDs of each stat for Lowen at 20/20 gets a total possible loss or gain of 17.8 stat points; doing the same for Heath gives a possible loss or gain of 13.8 stat points. Lowen has 4.0 more variability in his stats per deviation than Heath does. Now consider. 3 deviations down, means that it accounts for the lowest possible stats around 99.7% of the time (Going to 4+ deviations is useless, as it only accounts for slightly more % at each deviation away). But at 2 deviations down, you're accounting for the least possible stats at 95% of the time. And at one deviation down, you're accounting for the least possible stats at 68% of the time. (This is all assuming a normal distribution). Now, 99.7% is only 4.7% more assuring than 95% of all cases in a normal distribution. (and 95% of all cases covers 95.29% of what 99.7% of all cases covers). At two deviations down, Heath only beats Lowen by 8.0 stat points (in amount of stats lost with respect to each character's own averages), a difference of 4.0 stat points from before. Going one more deviation up, accounting for the worst stats 68% of the time, Heath beats Lowen out by some paltry 4.0 stat points. Now certainly, 68% is not very assuring. It is the majority of the time, however, so if you had to "expect" anything, it would be within 1 deviation. 68 > 32. In other words, it has a higher chance of being within one deviation than of being outside of 1 deviation. But if you're still not satisfied, 95% is pretty much as good as 99.7%. And in an argument concerning statistics and standard deviation, it's worth it to bring up that higher deviation allows for more RNG blessing as well as raping. Let's not forget that due to Lowen's massive advantages in joining time and supports, he can also close the gap statistically. For example, by the time Heath arrives, Lowen may have Lowen x Rebecca A and Lowen x Eliwood B. The LxR-A grants +3 PWR, +15% Hit, +15% Evade, and +15 Crt. The LxE-B grants +2 PWR, +1.5 DEF, +7.5% Hit, +15% Evade, +7.5% Crt, and +7.5% Cev. Added together, that's +5 PWR, +22.5% Hit, +30% Evade, +22.5% Crt, +1.5 DEF (which protects against both physical and melee attacks), and +7.5% Cev. Roughly, that's about 5 STR, 10 SKL, 7.5 LCK, 1.5 DEF, and 1.5 RES. Added together, that's 25.5 stat points he gains from supports before Heath even joins. Hell, that's more than Heath would beat him by, deviating or not, even with HM Bonus. Will he always be near his supporters? Perhaps not. But in general, it is a good idea to use your units in groups, so he may as well be near them most of the time. Granted, having x advantage in stat y through actual stats is better than having x stats through supports, as supports are situational, but the topic at hand is RNG instability. Supports do not rely on the RNG. Before Heath joins your party, Lowen will close the statistical gap by more than 25 stat points that are 100% reliable and that will be functioning most of the time. And in the end, if you're still worried about RNG rape, you can still just use Vaida, who comes in with much higher STR, DEF, and RES than Heath could hope to have at that point, and only risks 29.1 stats lost in 3 deviations.
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No, I see the role of a mounted Nuker and a Nuker to be different roles. And Heath outclasses Oswin in offense. STR isn't the only offensive stat. I see the role of the "Nuker" as being enhanced by having a mount. In any case, Heath does indeed outclass Oswin in offense -- after a few levels. Also, Oswin has more ATKDEF that Heath can ever hope to have, and thus is better in general at handling waves upon waves of melee units -- the thing that Heath specializes in killing. STR may not be the only offensive stat, but it generally helps with killing things. However, Heath the only time when Heath cannot rush in and kill things is when you first get him. And a few chapters after that; hell, the whole game. Need we post Heath's stats again? Heath has incredible STR, SKL, and SPD. He will kill what he attacks. Heath is a great tank as well, with more than enough DEF and HP to stop attacks. In regards to his class's weaknesses, it is simply a tactican judgement you have to make, whether to send him into a sea of mages, or a sea of melee units. Enemies tend to group, so it's not that hard. Problem is, in HHM, there aren't really any "seas of melee units" left. If it was EHM, then Heath would have a big role, but HHM consists of mostly magic units later on.
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Says you. I say Heath's statistical superiority more than warrant's their removal for ease later on in the game. Ease later in the game? I think not. Late HHM is mostly magic units, and Heath has no special advantage in handling them -- indeed, he is at a disadvantage due to shoddy RES -- so I see no valid reason to remove units that have already been trained past his capabilities, have already obtained good weapon levels, and have already maxed out their supports. Bullshit. Heath completely outclasses other units that would fit his role. I'm not going to do a stat by stat comparison between Heath and every other mount and flyer, but Heath is superior in the role of a mount, with who can take hits, and kill things by looking at them. No. Heath's utility as a melee specialist and mount is inferior because: 1. He lacks LCK and RES, and RES is especially important in the late-game where mages are abundant. Coincidentally, Heath gains the ability to "kill things by looking at them" in the late-game. His utility there is shit. 2. He lacks the support utility of so many characters who come before him, including Lowen. The support utility allows the other units to close the gap or even trounce him statistically for most scenarios in the game. 3. Lowen is better at taking hits, and Sain is better at dealing damage (Stable and maxed STR + STR boosting supports + Axes). 4. Economics. His role just isn't in demand in the late-game, the portion of the game where you can start using him, as there are already units who fulfill his role almost as well, and aren't as cumbersome to train.
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Only an incompetent tactician would have Heath as a liability. You use every unit to their fullest. However, some units have more potiental than other units, and therefore should become a main part of your army. Such as Heath. Such as Lowen. Really, all this amounts to is "Heath is useful because he is useful". Nino also has more potential than many other units. I should then use Nino to her fullest, ne?
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Unit X is a unit that is useful for the time when they are around. Marcus is incredibly useful early game. Does he play such a role endgame? No. When a unit shines, use them. When you get a unit that shines later on, use them rather than obsolete early-game units. [...] Yes; early game. Not so much later on, when so many other units surpass Marcus, and he becomes just average. First of all, Marcus has a huge role in the endgame as well, much more than Heath at any rate. He has passable offensives, but more importantly, he has amazing RES -- best RES for a Paladin in FE History. In a late-game filled to the brim with mages, Marcus shines. Second of all, I disagree. When I speak of overall output of a character's overall usefulness, I consider the entire game. A unit that is useful over a longer period of time is a more useful unit because they contributed effectively to chapter goals more consistently than other characters may have. Finally, I disagree that Heath shines in the late-game. Sure, he's a statistical monster compared to many units, but he serves no valuable or unique purpose, just to slightly edge out similar units statistically. Hell, he only beats Lowen by about 9 points at 20/20.
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Sain is useful when you first get him, and before you get Heath. Heath is useful in the latter part of the game. Sain is useful when you first get him, and still useful after you get him. Heath is statistically powerful in the latter part of the game. Does Heath's late-level statistical advantage automatically nullify Sain's usefulness early on? I could make the argument that every Mage, Monk, and Shaman is inferior to Athos due to Athos' amazing stats, S Rank in every type of magic, and ability to wield legendary weapons. There is no doubt that in the chapter Light, Athos outclasses any other mage you could bring into that chapter. Does that mean that Lucius, Canas, and Pent are all less useful than Athos? I would say no, because you got use out of them before Light, and they are still somewhat useful in Light. But primarily, their usefulness before Light weighs in more, simply because they got to do more. Now, saying that Heath is more useful in the latter part is flawed on two accounts. First of all, there are still things that Lowen can do that Heath simply cannot. Lowen can take on axe users flawlessly before promotion. He can also jump into a clump of archers or into the range of ballistae without much fear. Lowen is also simply in more chapters, period, which means that by the end of the game, he will have contributed to achieving all the goals of the levels more than Heath has. Lowen can close the gap statistically with supports, and can handle a wider variety of situations with dual weapon types and no weakness against bows.
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@Level 16 Sain vs Initial Heath: [...] @PostPromotion stats: [...] Now, why in God's name would you want Sain now instead of Heath? Heath has already passed him in practically all stats, and in the ones he hasn't, he is incredibly close. If we accepted that Sain would be about level 16 when you get Heath, [...] Heath apparently, if we are comparing Sain's level 16 stats to Heath, [...] First of all, Sain will only have to grow 4 levels, 400 EXP, to promote. Heath has to grow 13 to promote. If you want to be a bitch and promote early, Sain won't even have to wait. You'll still have to raise Heath 3 levels. So the fact that Heath beats Sain in stats is nullified by the fact that Sain can get superior stats earlier. Why would I want Sain over Heath? Well, Heath only gets marginal bonii over Sain in the main offensives (STR, SPD) and some more DEF, but in turn, is limited by his weakness to arrows. Sain can also be fully supported by that time, making him more powerful overall. Sain also has a better weapon selection. In terms of stat reliability, Sain has an extremely reliable STR; it won't fall below 24 within 3 deviations, whereas Heath's can drop as low as 20; and Sain gets axes to boot. Sain's also around for more chapters and as such, has contributed already to the game by the time Heath joins.
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I understand Defensive abilities are great. They keep your characters alive. Isn't it great that Heath, another unit with great defensive abilities, also comes with incredible offensive abilities? Defense may be more important than offense, but being great in both is better than only being great in one. Heath is great in both offense and defense, Lowen only in Defense. Heath joins with less DEF, and lacks LCK in copius amounts, and also lacks RES. Lowen is better in defense, having more LCK/DEF/RES, better weapon control to gain DEF and Evade from WTA, better LCK for Evade, supports that grant effective DEF and RES and evade, and his general ability to wall for several chapters before you obtain Heath. Lowen may be worse at offense, but completely outclasses Heath defensively.
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Offensive firepower at the begining is again outclassed by many units. Hector, Oswin, and Marcus are all better then, and eventually Bartre as well when he gets the SPD. Neither Hector, Oswin, nor Bartre have Lowen's MOVE, and Oswin and Bartre both risk DAs by Brigands. I'm not going to waste time trying to prove Lowen's prowess in offensive skills, but they are more than sufficient for the beginning: 7 STR + 7 SPD = capable offensively; while 7 STR + 7 DEF = 14 AD, which is incidentally more than what Bartre starts out with, and is great for the early-game.
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As does Heath's, although Heath isn't as much a gulton as Lowen is in that regard. 13.gif Still more than enough DEF to handle them with ease. Given the +15% Critical bonus, and their tendency to wield Killing Edges, a Swordmaster can cause serious damage to Heath.
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There normally aren't tides of units with killer weapons. Heath has the offense to kill the dangerous unit, and the DEF to stand up to his lackys. Heath typically can't OHKO, and thus the Killer enemy risks doing big damage on the counterattack. Lowen has better survivability against packs of dangerous enemies: LCK to eat critical, DEF/HP to eat damage.
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14 DEF (well, 13.9) is low? Some units in the game don't even average that much DEF at 20/20! Most melee units, do, however, and average in the ballpark of 15+. Heath is decent defensively, but I'm saying it's lower than Lowen's is all.
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Good for him. Fact is, Heath's DEF at all those levels are still higher than most other units in the game. Lowen's DEF is higher, but Heath's DEF is still great. And Heath, with his great HP and DEF, and comparible RES to Lowen, is not a defensive powerhouse? Lowen averages 3.5 more DEF and 2.7 more RES than Heath. Lowen can also effectively count an extra point from WTA into his DEF, making it 4.5, and will take hits 15% less frequently for the same reason. Lowen can obtain 2.5 points of DEF/RES from supports before Heath joins, making it 6, and can gain up to 25% extra evade. Lowen can obtain terrain bonii from places such as Forts, whereas Heath cannot. That can give Lowen anywhere from 1-3 extra DEF/RES, and usually around +20% Evade. So, putting it all together, Lowen has anywhere from 7-9 more DEF and 6-8 more RES depending on the situation, and has about 60% more evade, meaning he'll take hits with less damage and take them less frequently as well. And most of these advantages are available before Heath even comes into play. Will he have all of these advantages all the time? No. But he will have them most of the time if you're playing intelligently and using the resources that the game gives you like you should be. In general, you place your units in places like Forests, you group them together for support bonii, and you give them WTA. It's not difficult. Lowen trounces Heath defensively.
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When you are at least half-way compedent, you can use him without fear of dieing. That's not what I'm saying. Fact: He will take more damage, due to having a 70% hit against him and a good 13 damage. Dying or not, he will cost you more in HP recovery and maintenance. Good tacticans don't get their unit's killed. And as I've argued, Dorcas can weaken units for Eliwood. The ammount of risk involved is irrelavant, as both units can do it, and neither unit should die while doing so. Not all tacticians are good tacticians. A useful unit should be accessible to any player of FE, regardless of skill level. If you were introduce a newbie to the game, would you tell him to use a unit that will have a higher risk of dying, or would you point him to a very safe unit? Hell, I bet Lucas makes tactical mistakes once in a while throughout his various playthroughs. Ideally, no units "should" die, but you know what? Shit happens. An enemy unit you didn't expect will show up either as a reinforcement or out of the fog, and rape a defenseless unit. A Druid will Berserk a unit you thought you put safely out of range. A stray Bolting happens to find Eliwood and smite him. There are all sorts of unexpected and challenging scenarios that will happen throughout the game. A useful unit is one that can help you thrive in these situations, and Lowen is exactly that, because he is durable.
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Yes, but in terms of growth percentages, 40% growth is a reliable growth. They do, but right now, double attacking isn't the subject matter we are discussing. We are discussing how long will it take for Bartre to not be doubled himself. Once he is past the level where he will be double attacked, Bartre can take the role of weakening units for Eliwood to kill as well. Yes, but that is not the issue at hand. We were discussing the probability of Bartre gaining 1 SPD point over the interval of 1 level with a 40% growth. He is less likely to gain a point of SPD going from level 1 to level 2. Fact. And even then, he'll still be doubled by Myrmidons, Mercenaries, and Nomads, and he doesn't have the DEF to ignore that; he only has HP, which will dwindle down quickly. Lowen has the DEF and SPD to resist attacks from these types of units, and other units as well.
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A logical falacy. Other units are around for the majority of the game, while Heath isn't. Which makes other units more overall useful since they contributed to chapter goals more than Heath did. Heath's time while he is in the game, he becomes very useful, while the other's decline. All he gets are stats, while other units come in strong and supported, and with no glaring weaknesses.
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Look at it like this. True, EXP is limited. But let us say you are going to drop someone for Heath. Using that unit up till then won't effect it any. Not like Heath can pirate all the EXP out of old units he replaces. Let's say that on a givel level, you can amass up to 100 EXP, and you have characters A and B. You divide the EXP evenly, so by the level's end, A has 50 EXP, and B has 50. Next level, you get character C, and you drop B since C is better. But you keep A. Now, it seems retarded to have trained B in the first place, as you could have given all the EXP to A and A would have been more powerful by the time C joins, allowing C to gain some more EXP than A. A bit convoluted, but my point is that investing EXP into units and then trashing them gives weight to arguments like "You'll never reach 20/20 in-game!"
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Name one better candidate for the Delphi Shield. Items are ment to be used. Not using them squanders them. You get one, and you should use it. And why not on Heath? I'll do you better, and name three: Florina, Fiora, and Vaida*.
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I love how you go back and forth like that. One second, you praise Lowen for using nitch weapons like Heavy Spears, magic swords, etc, but when I mention Heath being able to use weapons like that, they are inferior weapons. Inferior weapons compared to Iron in terms of cost-effectiveness. 14.gif Let me put it this way. Lowen joins earlier and thus has more time to build up his weapon ranks. Heath joins later and has less time to do so. Lowen also has more weapons to build ranks with. Now, ideally, both of them should be using Iron weapons, to save on costs. If a situation requires a specialty weapon, though, Lowen will be able to wield it sooner than Heath will be able to. He should have A lances at the time Heath joins, so he could theoretically wield one of the old Silver lances to instantly deal massive damage. He can also use all of the specialty swords, including the Wyrmslayer and Magic Swords, in first tier, before Heath even promotes, whereas Heath probably won't achieve a high enough Sword rank in-game unless you spam swords.
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Heath has the DEF to easily survive the counter attack if they survive Heath's first hit. Heath has decent end-game DEF, sure, but his starting DEF is just on par with your other units at his joining time, and still inferior to Lowen's. Whereas Heath may be able to hit well enough, Lowen's offenses will still be decent at that time.
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If Heath kills a mage in one blow, there is 0% chance that mage will damage Heath. Even if Lowen gets WTA (which he will rarely get, due to the rariety of the weapons in question) over mages, there is still a solid chance of Lowen to take damage. Mages have shitty DEF and HP, and Lowen has axes. He can kill lesser units like Monks, mages, and shamans just as easily. As for the advanced units, you really wouldn't want either of Heath or Lowen to take them down. Lowen also gets RES boosts from terrain and supports, so he'll take less damage per hit most of the time, and he also gets a lot of Evade boost from terrain and supports, so he'll be forced to take damage less frequently than Heath will. In other words, in terms of durability, Lowen will have a big advantage over Heath, in both melee and magic. This makes him the better choice, even if only slightly, to take on magic units.
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You keep saying late game, when Heath's starting offensive stats are passible, and grow far beyond those of others. Level 16 Raven has 14.1 STR and 17.9 SPD, without HM Bonus. He rapes offensively. Level 16 Lucius has 14.8 MGC and 15.2 SPD, and attacks the lesser-used defensive stat. He rapes offensively. Both of these units start out amazing as well: Raven with 8 STR/13 SPD right off the bat without HM Bonus, Lucius with 7 MGC/10 SPD. And at end-game, Raven and Lucius average above 24 STR/MGC and 23 SPD (Raven's is 25.9), which is comparable to Heath's average of 25.9(27.0), especially considering that Raven wields axes, the most powerful and useful weapon type in the game (given that most enemy units use lances), and Lucius' magic attacks RES, which most enemies lack in abundance. On top of that, Raven and Lucius get terrain and support bonii, meaning that in most situations, they'll recieve many other boosts as well. Compared to that much power that you can acquire earlier, Heath's offenses are bullshit. He can barely double right off the bat, with that 8 base SPD. Hell, he gets doubled by Paul and Jasmine. Nomads and Pirates, the most dangerous classes to him, run the risk of doubling him. Granted, with 45% SPD, he'll outgrow that eventually, but it will be a long time before he can reliably double-attack. For reference, end-game paladins have about 15 SPD, while Heath averages 18.0(19.0) at level 8 promoted. It will be a long time. Lowen's control doesn't come near to equalizing the difference here. Now, I'm not going to claim that Lowen is the offensive shit, because he isn't. And I'm not trying to say that Raven and Lucius are mounted, either. What I am saying is that the claim "Heath outstrips other units offensively" is obviously not the case.
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Less vulnerable to a degree of insignificance. Once you factor in WTA, terrain bonii, and support bonii, Lowen beats Heath in RES by a large margin. And then, you would consider that with those bonii, Lowen has MUCH better dodge, meaning he'll have to rely on that superior RES even less. Against magic units, Lowen has a much better lasting time.
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Swordreaving Axes? Heath gets WTA over them. Those are axes that go the opposite way on the weapon triangle, right? At that point, Heath isn't ready to fight the boss, but he can move around and fight enough to start leveling up. You just have to be smart about it. Move around, except for the Ballista range, the nomadic range, the magic range, and the boss range, which really just about sums up the entire map.
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Just keep Heath away from the sages, and fighting various units around. Bolting has a larger range than you think, and it's hard to get him into an attack range without exposing him to danger. With his low RES and dodge, he's a prime target for the Sages to hit. You recruit Geitz, so you wouldn't be sending him to fight anyway. Yes, but you have to lure Geitz, so you can't send Heath, otherwise Geitz will own him on the turn in which he is lured. Heath can get WTA over Heros, with his lance and axe reaver (though, I think those are Sword Heros, so the axereaver is meh.). Heros are high STR/SKL/SPD units that are likely to do massive damage, and twice, to Heath. Heath cannot stand up to them in any way. Heath can grow in this stage as well. No, not so much.
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Heath won't have the distadvantage with the leg of lance users, however. He won't have an advantage to speak of, either. Oh, wait. Fighting the lance users puts him directly into the range of the ballistae. However, you neglected to mention something Heath can do fine in this chapter, which Lowen can't; Heath can get to the village to save it. Fighting off rabid pirates and monks, I see. Yeah, I would definitely trust Heath to that.
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Heath can save the village, or fly between the moutains to help the Lord's group, or the other one. Crossing towards the southern side of the map means that Heath will have to fight off Brigands, who will do massive damage and get the broken 40% dodge from the peaks. Lowen can't cross mountains. He can travel on land just fine, and quickly enough. And Heath can fight the Wyverns in this map. He's not the shit yet; he'll get gang-raped. Other units with better offensive and defensive stats, axes, or any combination, could do this better. Lowen can do this better, as there are forts for him to stand on, and units to support with. He should be able to use axes by this point, too.
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However, this map has snow. This reduces horse units to a movement of 2. Heath can move 3 or 4, depending if he is promoted or not. However, there is one thing Lowen can do here which Heath cannot. He can recruit the incredible HM-Boosted Harken. Because of his amazing resilience, he can even bait said Hero and take the Brave Sword hits, and then recruit him on the next phase.
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So Lowen wouldn't be doing well there either. There are plenty of melee units in this chapter for Heath to fight, however. There are a lot of pillars for Lowen to hide on. For Heath, there are plentiful axefighters, so he'll be locked to fighting the Knights. Lowen can fight both easily.
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Also has that annoying water. Lowen gets hindered by it, Heath doesn't. Also has Heros and Wyverns for Heath to fight. Heath can't really make use of his movement bonii since there are dangerous things running all around. As for the Heroes and Wyverns, Lowen will fight them nearly as well; especially the Wyverns, since he should have axes by now.
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Bad for both Lowen and Heath, eh? But when Vaida appears, so do Wyverns, which Heath can handle. As can Lowen, with axes and better DEF. Ah! But the level is chock full of forests and forts, and Lowen can make use of his supports. Due to the boosts in RES and Evade, he'll have a much easier time taking on magic units than Heath will.
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By this time, you also have the sexy Delphi Shield. You have since 28. It should be on Florina, Fiora, or Vaida.* And Lowen wouldn't do much better against the mage units. Lots of pillars on this level, at least. Also, since you can only bring one unit other than Hector, why not a unit that could use some more levels? Like Heath. Like Nino. Or Lyn. Or Eliwood. Or Oswin. Or anybody that needs extra levels. No, really, Heath doesn't "deserve" this level any more than any other unit. Besides, Hector should have someone to heal his ass when he gets dinged up by mages and other faggots.
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The Delphi Shield you already have should help Heath a bit. You mean the Delphi Shield that should be on a superior unit?* Also, the DS in no way protects him from the effects of harmful dark magic, or the annoying staff magic. Lowen can utilize pillars and supports to have an easier time taking on the magic users; among the melee units, he is one of the best choices.
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Heath would have the Delphi Shield, and probably promoted, giving him Swords. I'll give you promoted, though I don't quite believe it, but I'll nuke the DS. And as always, mages are bad for both Heath and Lowen. Not when situationals, which are almost always in play, are factored in. Plus, there are plenty of other units for Heath to fight as well, like Wyverns, Cavalier/Paladins, etc etc. Lowen can fight the melee units as well to a good degree of efficiency, escpecially with situationals factored in.
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Good thing Heath gets swords, right? Not really. Your lords, especially Hector, all need practice with Swords, and they're close to the endgame with relatively low levels. This chapter is basically for them to catch up so that they're at 20/20 by Light.
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I've been able to train up Heath to take to this chapter, though I admit that Heath won't play as big a role as Hector, or Athos, or someone like that. And I've done that with Lowen. Seems like alot of your commentary on levels ignores the fact that most levels don't consist of primarily mages/axes. Even so, there are plenty of magic users (Anima, Light, Dark, and Status Staff users are all threats, and HHM has more mages than any other mode, and axes are somewhat common later on.) Lances are the most common enemy unit later on, and Heath can handle them. That makes Axes the most valuable weapon type to possess, which Heath never has access to, ever. All he has access to are 9 full more stat points than Lowen.
Now, before I jump into countering the following points, I want to point out something: Marcus does outperform Lowen in usefulness, that's not debateable. However, Marcus doesn't have the ability to be everywhere at once. He can't do everything. I'm arguing that for most of the early-game, Lowen is the second most useful in the game. While Marcus is off doing task x, Lowen can do task y better than any of your other units can.
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Someone else can get the Secret Book, its not hard. Who else has 7 MOVE, other than Marcus? Lowen is more suited to this than Bartre, Dorcas, Eliwood, Rebecca, Hector, Oswin, Serra, and Matthew. Rebecca can take the pegasus knights She can deliver one powerful hit, sure, but if it isn't fatal, she'll take a lot of damage on the enemy phase. Her starting Evade% isn't impressive yet, and her DEF/HP are poor., and other people can fight the bandits. Eliwood is more frail than Lowen at this point (loses by 2 in both HP and DEF), and so is suited to getting the killing blow; his tanking against Brigands is poorer. One unit is much more useful here; Marcus. He double attacks and kills. You don't want to use him for standard enemy-weakening. Well, maybe not at getting Guy. Have Oswin do that, as he is better at it. Oswinatrix will leave Guy at like 2 HP on the counterattack. 13 STR + Lance + WTA = Major damage. Not to mention, it'll take him a long time to get to the fort before the area begins to swarm with dangerous enemies -- including Brigands, Oswin's bane. Marcus can rescue Merlinus without worrying about the penality, and get to the village. Lowen can do it as well, better than any other unit bar Marcus. Hector and Oswin can provide walls just as easy Lots of brigands on this level, they pound the hate on Hector and Oswin. Hector is simply too low-level to be an efficient wall at this point, and Oswin gets doubled for lots of damage. , not to mention killing nomads/brigands/mercs. Hector has poor ACC against the Nomad's high Evade%, making him a poor choice. His DEF isn't impressive yet, and so getting doubled by Mercs with WTA is dangerous. Brigands tie him in the triangle and do huge damage. Oswin has the same problem against Brigands. Lowen has a base 17 Evade%, plus terrain, plus WTA against Brigands. He can also get WTA against Mercs. Marcus can visit either village. So he visits one, Lowen visits the other, as he's the only High MOVE unit with good melee stats to do the job. Hector, Oswin, or Marcus can dominate the frontlines. One more unit won't hurt. Guy can handle the pirates I'd prefer Eliwood for this, and Bartre can handle the Pegs. Lowen's actually about equal to Bartre in this; Bartre - Iron Axe (WTA) Hit: 87% Mt: 18 AS: 3 Crt: 2.5 (3) Cev: 4 Evd: 25% Def: 5
Lowen - Iron Lance (WTN) Hit: 90% Mt: 13 AS: 7 Crt: 2.5 (3) Cev: 3 Evd: 17% Def: 7 Lowen trades 5 Mt, 1 Cev, and 8% for 3% Hit, 4 AS, and 2 DEF. Pegasi tend to have High AS, with HM Bonus, they may easily reach enough to 2x attack Bartre's lame base 3 AS. Other units can nail the theif, as you got Sain and Kent now. Whom are likely to be lower level unless you abused them in Lyn's mode, killing rank, with no supports, either. Marcus can rescue soldiers, move people around, and Marcus or Oswin can guard Merlinus. Above, Lowen can do better than your other units bar Marcus. Oswin needs support, otherwise the enemies will run past him and attack Merlinus instead. I've had that happen to me many times, so it's not false AI. Marcus, Oswin, Sain, hell, even Hector can do that. Eliwood and Bartre to an extend as well. Neither Sain or Bartre can tank sword users. Sain can only nuke, and both lack DEF. Hector can tank to an extent, but fast sword users + WTD is a problem for him until a very high level. Marcus is decent, but wears down very quickly. Oswin is your best choice, but lacks Lowen's MOVE and weapon variety. Any other mount can do this as well, and some (Marcus) can do it better. Lowen has supports and levels on Sain and Kent, and has more MOVE than your other units. Marcus can rush ahead to get Legault. Hector, Oswin, Bartre, and Sain can fight the cavaliers. Hector and Oswin can provide a wall. None of these, bar Marcus, can do it as efficiently. The thief doesn't attack worth shit, you could use Serra as a wall there. Any of your mounts can visit houses And deal with Monks at the same time? Lowen has better Evade% than Sain as well as RES, and has supports over both of them. And Wyverns. And other baddies. , and some fight those wyverns easier, not to mention there are units that can kill Oleg better. Not many that can do it all-in-one, though
Who Deserves the Delphi Shield?
A lot of your arguments center on the fact that Heath is the "best candidate" for the Delphi Shield. While I still do not believe that justifies him needing an Item to offset his weakness, I will argue that there are three better candidates for this item: Florina, Fiora, and Vaida. As a side note, having to lug that thing around is a disadvantage in itself because it prevents him from carrying a 5th Item or Weapon. Now, while it's true that you only need 2-3 weapons at any given time, it's very useful to have more as backup, for when your Flyer is nuking and is far away from an Items supplier. It also means that he can't carry an extra vulnerary/elixir to save himself, Antitoxin to heal himself, Door/Chest Key, and any other paraphernalia that you need delivered from one unit to another. It's a subtle, but strong, tactical disadvantage.
Florina
Bases: 17 HP | 5 STR | 7 SKL | 9 SPD | 7 LCK | 4 DEF | 4 RES | 4 CON | 16 AID 20/20: 44.8 HP | 21.4 STR | 24.2 SKL | 27.5 SPD | 25.9 LCK | 11.7 DEF | 19.3 RES | 5 CON | 15 AID Level 16: 26.0 HP | 11.0 STR | 14.5 SKL | 17.2 SPD | 14.5 LCK | 6.2 DEF | 9.3 RES At base, she has very good Hit% and good Evade%, but her selling point is good defensive stats against both Physical and Magical attackers. She also has one of the largest support lists in the game, including a very powerful and lesbian support with Lyn, among others. She has time in Lyn's story to develop her level and supports. At Heath's joining, she loses slightly in HP, STR, a bit more in DEF and CON, but trounces him completely in SKL, SPD, LCK, and RES, as well as AID, and has more supports and weapon levels. At 20/20, she has a huge advantage in Evade% (Superior SPD, LCK, and supports), closing the gap between her and Heath's HP and DEF. But her major advantage here is in RES. Because of her great RES, she can take magic users on, no problem. Chapters like Cog of Destiny are cakewalk for her. Since magic is so much more abundant in late HHM -- the time when Heath joins -- you need magic specialists more than melee specialists. A similar argument follows for Fiora, who has better stats, better RES, and joins a few chapters before Heath does.
Vaida
Vaida comes along not too long after Heath, only 7 chapters later (More like 5, once you factor in the Nabata chapters), with more DEF than Heath averages and more guaranteed RES than Heath could ever dream of. She's safer than Heath to raise, comes with better weapon levels, supports with Canas and Harken as well, two decent supports. She has more CON, as well.
Closing Points
Heath beats Lowen statistically at 20/20...by only 9 full points. He's also safer (loses less from his averages due to standard deviation) by only 12 points. Heath's class is weak to an entire weapon type, and he can never overcome that without an item. Lowen is only weak to three entire weapons, and he can get WTA over all of them. Heath is a melee specialist...in a game mode where you have 346295624965 other melee specialists, and the demand for maybe one or two, given the insane amount of magic in HHM. Lowen is a defensive specialist, and he'll help you survive throughout the game, with his awesome HP, LCK, DEF, and above average RES. Lowen crushes Heath in situational advantages. By that, I mean, he has the following over Heath: 1. Constant WTA 2. Supports 3. Terrain Bonii WTA gives 15% Hit, 1 Mt, 15% Evade, and 1 DEF/RES. Supports (An ideal setup being Marcus - B - Lowen - A - Eliwood) give 4 Mt, 2.5 DEF/RES, 17.5% Hit, 25% Evade, 12.5% Crt, and 12.5% Cev. The most common type of terrain, Forests, gives +20% Evade and +2 DEF/REs. Add that all together. +5 Mt: Now with Axes, he easily closes the damage gap with Heath. +32.5% Hit: He's much more accurate than Heath, now. +12.5% Crt: He gets decisive blows in more often, especially with Swords. +60% Evade: That's over double Heath's Evade%. He's now an efficient HP/DEF/RES tank as well as a Dodge tank. He doesn't have to rely on his amazing defenses anymore. +5.5 DEF/RES: Did I mention his amazing defenses? He now has an effective 28.6 DEF and 17.6 RES. If that's not a tank, I don't know what is. +12.5% Cev: Combined with his superior LCK, he will resist critical hits much more efficiently than Heath will. Now, it's safe to say that a good amount of the time, he can have all 3 advantages. In the situations where he cannot, he may have 2 of 3 or simply just 1 of 3. But all of these advantages are available throughout the game -- all of them are fully available long before Heath even joins. Lowen is around for the early game and protects your nubile army along with Marcus until Eliwood and crew can stand on their own two feet. Heath comes in late, underlevelled, and in a disadvantaged class. Lowen is, undeniably, the more useful unit. Oh, and I had a Heath bar yesterday, and it sucked. Never eating one of those fuckers again. Thanks for the debate, Sentenal.
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