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| Reikken vs. Yzarc Drowsnam | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 10 2006, 02:36 PM (406 Views) | |
| Merk | Sep 10 2006, 02:36 PM Post #1 |
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ザワザワ
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3 posts each, Reikken begins. Get to it. |
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s | |
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| Reikken | Sep 13 2006, 01:54 AM Post #2 |
 
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Soren vs Boyd? Boyd obviously loses; Ike pwns him before chapter 1 even begins! But if you're still not convinced... I'll start off with some 20/20 stat averages: Soren- 39.1 hp, 3.9 str, 28.7 mag, 27.7 skl, 24.9 spd, 9.7 def, 27.5 res, 16.4 lck Boyd - 59.4 hp, 29.3 str, 2.8 mag, 24.3 skl, 23.4 spd, 16.2 def, 11.2 res, 16.9 lck Probably the first thing you notice is Boyd's massive 20(zomgz!) hp lead. Then the rest of the stats: Boyd: 0.6 pow, 6.5 def, 0.5 lck; Soren: 3.4 skl, 1.5 spd, 16.3 res. At first glance, it looks like Boyd is obviously leading in durability, with his higher def and much higher hp; however, this is without supports and without factoring in avoid. Boyd has 63.7 base avo, and Soren has 66.2 base avo. Regardless of who Boyd's supporters are, he gets the same defensive bonuses: 1 def from his A support, and another 1 def from his B support. Soren gets 22("zomg!" again) avo from A with Ike, and another 5 avo from B with Stefan. Now Boyd's defensive leads are 7.5/8.5 def and 20.3 hp, and Soren's are 24.5/29.5 avo and 15.3/14.3 res. To determine which is better, they have to be compared to actual enemy stats. Take a random level 15 Endgame paladin with a short axe. 18 str + 10 mt = 28 atk, and 14 skl * 2 + 8 lck + 65 hit = 101 hit. Against Boyd, that's 10.8/9.8 (first number is A supports only, second is with both A and B supports) damage and 37.3/37.3 hit, or, applying the 2 RN system, 27.8/27.8% hit; average number of rounds to survive: 21.6/25.2. Against Soren, that's 18.3/18.3 damage and 12.8/7.8 hit, or 3.3/1.2% hit; average number of rounds to survive: 90.9/250.0. Take the same paladin with a steel bow: 27 atk, 106 hit. Boyd: 9.8/8.8 dmg, 35.8/35.8% hit, 19.6/19.6 turns. Soren: 17.3/17.3, 6.3/3.3%, 47.6/90.9 rounds. Level 15 tiger laguz: 26 str + 9 mt = 35 atk, 19 skl * 2 + 4 lck + 90 hit = 132 hit. Against Boyd: 17.8/16.8 dmg, 79.9/79.9% hit, 5.0/5.0 rounds. Against Soren: 25.3/25.3 dmg, 38.4/30.1% hit, 5.2/6.6 rounds. Amazingly, Soren wins durability without even including res and the fact the he usually won't be counterattacked. Now, for offensive stuff. In terms of raw stats, Boyd's only up by 0.6 atk, and Soren has the advantage in spd by 1.5. Throw in supports: Soren: A Ike: 1 atk; B Stefan: 1 atk, 10 hit. Boyd: A Titania: 1 atk, 15 hit; B Mist: 2 atk, 5 hit. Boyd w/ silver axe: 46.3/48.3 atk, 150.5/155.5 hit, 12.2 crit, 23.4 AS Soren w/ thunder: 33.7/34.7 atk, 156.8/166.8 hit, 18.85, 24.9 AS If we go back to that level 15 paladin, we find that he has 41 hp, 19 spd, 8 lck, 20 def, and 13 res. Boyd: 26.3/28.3 damage, and he just barely is able to double attack by a 0.4 margin, meaning that some of them he will actually not be able to double. He fails to kill the ones with 20 speed. Soren: 20.7/21.7 damage and a double attack. His DA margin is 1.9, so he's fairly safe. 41.4/43.4. Just barely killing when he doesn't have his B support. Without his B support, he fails to kill the ones with 42 hp or 14 res. The level 15 tiger laguz: 48 hp, 19 spd, 4 lck, 22 def, 9 res Boyd: 24.3/26.3 damage, and the double attacking margin is small again. Even when he does DA, he's barely killing it without his B support. Soren: 24.7/25.7 damage and a double attack. 49.4/51.4. Again, he's barely killing it when he doesn't have his B support, but this time, the margin is a bit greater, so it takes 1 res or 2 hp, not just 1 hp. They're both kinda iffy; Boyd mainly because of his spd, and Soren because thunder tomes are so crappy. There's nothing that can be done about the spd short of using a speedwing or something, but thunder tomes are pretty inexpensive to forge. 6693 for a maxed (9) mt 40 use tome is pretty good, expecially when he doesn't have to use it all the time. So Soren's offense is a bit better, not even including his slightly higher crit, Adept, and 1-2 range. And then Soren has staves. Compare them at, say, 20/3, chapter 17. Soren: 31.5 hp, 3.0 str, 19.5 mag, 21.3 skl, 18.4 spd, 7.1 def, 20.4 res, 11.3 lck Boyd: 47.5 hp, 20.9 str, 2.0 mag, 16.0 skl, 16.0 spd, 12.0 def, 7.0 res, 11.0 lck Supports: Soren: B Ike: 1 atk, 15 avo Boyd: B Titania: 1 atk, 10 hit, 1 def, C Mist: 1 atk, 2 hit Defense: Boyd: 47.5 hp, 13.0 def, 8.0 res, 43.0 avo Soren: 31.5 hp, 7.1 def, 20.4 res, 63.1 avo 16 hp, 5.9 def vs. 12.4 res, 20.1 avo Enemy stats again? v_v But that's so much work... Offense: Boyd w/ steel axe: 32.9/33.9 atk, 118/120 hit, 8 crit, 16 AS Soren w/ thunder: 24.5 atk, 138.9 hit, 15.7 crit, 18.4 AS Obvious enemy stat requirement... Okay, this part of the game has a mix of promoted unit and unpromoted units with mostly unpromoted. The unpromoted units Boyd can usually double attack, while most of the promoted ones he can't double, while Soren can. The res in enemy units is fairly constant, while the def varies. They both can kill all the unpromoted units in 2 hits, but Boyd can't double myrmidons, paladins, halberdiers, and snipers, and niether can quite do enough damage to kill the generals in 2 hits. So it looks like Boyd's slacking the most offensively, again without even including Soren's other cool advantages, like Adept and 1-2 range. And Soren's not as good with his staves here, but he still has them, and can heal pplz. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Yzarc | Sep 13 2006, 08:48 PM Post #3 |
Coxian
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Boyd, easily one of the most important frontlines units you can get in the game, against an easily replaceable mage. Let's see how this goes, shall we?
Yes, let's look at these. Boyd: 20.3 HP 0.6 Pow 6.5 Def 0.5 Luck Soren: 3.4 Skill 1.5 Speed 16.3 Res (You've already mentioned these, I just feel it's better to show them again for simplicity's sake) Soren's rediculous amount of Res is nearly instantly a shocker. He wins by THAT much? Yes, Soren can easily take damage from magic users. But the good thing is, there aren't that many in the game and they are generally well placed to avoid them. Down side? They generally have high ranged tomes. Plus side? They're more likely to target units with lower HP than Boyd. His 1.5 speed plays its greatest advantage in Soren's attack speed. His evasion is hardly an advantage, before taking into account those juicy supports which you've already mentioned. He's got better skill as well, but it's not like Boyd's really gonna be missing with his nice 24.3. So, whatever happens happens. Boyd can, afterall, afford to miss and take a counterattack with his rediculous HP. Boyd is usually the FIRST of your group to get to 40 HP. If you look at the stat chart, it says he'll likely be at 38 from level 12 - 19 and he'll have a rediculously low chance of NOT getting 40 before promotion. Basically, he'll probably be at 40 a few levels before he actually hits level 20. He starts with barely 3 HP less than Titania as a level 2 unpromoted fighter. While I wouldn't call him a "tank" necessarily, due to his less than perfect defense, he is the guy on your team that can best take hits during the Gatrie-less levels. Boyd's Strength is also top notch, best in the game, aside from Largo who you don't get until waaaaay later. (And, of course, 2/3 of the Laguz Gods, who you get even further after) So, at the start, Titania has the best Strength, obviously. But it only takes for Boyd to hit level 10, which goes by pretty quickly, to be nearly tied with Titania for strength. And the higher his strength gets, the higher his attack gets, and not only by a ratio of 1:1. More Strength = Higher powered weapons. Granted, the Steel Axe has less accuracy than an Iron Axe...But you know what's cool about FE9? Extra inventory slots for more weapons! You can carry both and, in the situation where the Steel Axe has enough accuracy and will get the kill over the Iron, you can use it without having to worry about losing speed. Boyd CAN double attack once you get a bit into the game and he is VERY likely to kill in one turn. His Luck advantage is pretty moot, granted, considering it really only serves (against Soren) to lower Soren's Accuracy and Evasion advantages on him by a slight amount. No need to get into that. His Defense, while not great, is there. It, paired with his godly HP, serves to allow him to take plenty of hits in a single enemy phase and, if necessary, be healed up like nothing happened. Soren, on the other hand, is more likely to die BEFORE healing is available. Though his Evasion is high, it's not consistant. We all know that, even if there is less than a 5% chance of being hit, you can still be hit. Let's take a look at those nice little "turns to survive" charts you made. These ones are slightly flawed only in that...In Fire Emblem it simply doesn't work that way. First of all, those are all assuming that both characters are always near BOTH supporters. What happens when we get rid of both of those buddies? Add 2 damage to the guys attacking Boyd. Then add 27% chance to hit to the guys attacking Soren.
Agreed. We just agree that Soren has way less turns of being hit to survive and actually GETS hit more often. We also have to take OTHER things into account with this statistical analysis. One of the main ones being, the amount of hits it will take to kill either Boyd or Soren will NOT take place in a single enemy phase. Possibly if 5 level 15 tigers jumped them, they'd be in trouble, but...I mean, there aren't even enough spaces for that to happen. Granted, if you left them out in the middle of a massive sea of high level enemies with a silver axe and a thunder tome (For Boyd and Soren respectively) along with their support partners, who just stood there and gave support bonuses, Soren would survive a bit longer...But how many situations like that come up? None. And we both know that Boyd can actually take more hits. Higher defense and higher HP. He's not gonna go from full HP to none by a group of physical attackers in a single enemy phase. It won't happen. Between his relatively frequent dodges and his ability to take the hits he doesn't dodge, he's gonna be alright and okay for the heal on the allied turn, where Mist, who is likely already near him, can swing by with a Mend Staff and all better! Soren, though, will die after around two or three hits. If those two hits happen to be in the same enemy phase, he's dead. No healing available. Granted, that's a pretty slim chance, but with Boyd, there's nearly NO chance of him dying in a single enemy phase. Soren's in mortal danger after one hit. As far as offense goes...Boyd has the best strength paired with the most powerful weapons: Axes. If he can double attack an enemy, he'll be able to kill it more effectively than anyone else in the game (again, save Largo, Tibarn and Giffca). And these double attacks are very frequent. Perhaps not as frequent as Soren, but...His overall attack will be pretty consistantly higher. That's, of course, before we take into account resistance and defense. Soren will more than likely be better at just laying down nukes, but you gotta babysit him or he gets owned. You have to keep his supporters there and you have to keep him from being attacked. Now, for the mid-game... Boyd does rediculous damage with his high strength, paired with his axe using capabilities. Against the Halberdiers...While Boyd will possibly double attack, killing them for sure, he might not. Most Physical attackers won't be killing units in one turn. But of them, Boyd is one of the best. He is also effective at taking hits...
Thing about the 12.4 Res is that it's so situational that it's hard to discuss. Mages don't just travel with the rest of the armies and, if they do, they come in small numbers with armies of mostly physical attackers. As a general rule, there are more melee units than magic. That's likely why magic users have high res...Basically, when one of those rare situations DO come on, they're not gonna be the ones taking damage. There are easily more than 2 times as many melee fighters than magic users, making Boyd's defense advantage more significant than Soren's Res advantage. The evasion is the tricky part. 20 evasion looks like a lot, but when seen relatively... Boyd: 43 Soren: 63 It's not like Soren's evasion is DOUBLED Boyd's. Boyd will still evade a lot, the difference being, he can afford to take the hits he won't evade. Soren really can't. And damage that early, when Boyd can carry a wide variety of weapons: Laguz Axe, Hammer, PoleAxe, Killer Axe...Soren can basically carry Thunder, Fire, Wind and Elwind. While he does have the capability of being good against individual types of Laguz, Boyd can just own 'em all with a Laguz Axe. I think that's enough for now. There's still more to say, but there's also two more posts to make. GL HF. |
  
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| Reikken | Sep 13 2006, 11:21 PM Post #4 |
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So Soren's easily replaceable, but Boyd is not? No, Boyd's very replaceable. Like with Kieran for example. His only disadvantage to Boyd is his str is a bit lower. I don't need to list all his other many advantages, as they're pretty obvious. Or, not take damage, as the case may be.
Speaking of that, since Soren can counter at 1-2 range, enemies tend to attack someone else.
And Soren doesn't even have to worry about counterattacks with his 1-2 range.
You mean aside from Titania? Actually, that would be Oscar, with his 3 more base def and only 4 less base hp.
Soren too. Boyd only beats him by 0.4.
Soren doesn't have to wait until he gets a bit into the game to DA, and even after that, since Soren has around 2 spd more than Boyd throughout the game, he double attacks much more often than Boyd. The only enemies who escape a double attack are the myrmidons, raven laguz (which can sometimes even DA Boyd), and some of the bosses. And even against the hard-to-kill units, Adept + crit + DA means he will often do more than just 2x damage. Even as early as lv 12, unless the enemy has high lck, he's got about a 40% chance of doing more than 2x damage, and it only goes up.
That's pretty untrue. Look at them again. Sure, one part is the numbers for both supporters being there, but that's only one part.
What?
It's only 2 hits when dealing with the high atk lategame units. And the chance of three hits all on the same turn is extremely low. There's often not even 3 units attempting an attack on him. He has 1-2 range, so he doesn't need to be as far out as Boyd does, and his 1-2 range also discourages enemy attacks, allows him to not get counterattacked, and gives him more flexibility in his position, to use available terrain, or stay in range of his support.
And Soren. And that stuff about Adept and crit and stuff makes him even better. Soren is probably the best boss-killer in the game.
His A support, Ike, is in every chapter, and is really the only one he needs. I don't see any reason either one of them would want to run off on thier own. Maybe you're thinking of Boyd's supporters. They're mounted, so they're much more likely to do some of that running around stuff.
While most physical attackers won't be killing units in one turn, most Sorens will.
When that Elthunder mage crits you, and you die, don't come crying to me. But yes, Boyd's def is better than Soren's res, but the evasion...
Actually, while the actual avoid isn't twice as much, for the hit chance that the enemies have, it's usually more than double, unless it's a myrmidon or an archer with an iron weapon, and myrmidons have WTA against Boyd's axes, archers are pretty weak, and both use very weak weapons. Not that archers ever even attack Soren in the first place. And those snipers can crit. And then you're like, wtf? I got critted.
Considering how few are actually hitting him, actually, yes he can. He gets attacked less, he almost never gets countered, and he evades more.
He can only carry 4 weapons at a time, though that's usually enough. And I don't think Soren would even bother with Fire and Wind. He'd probably use Thunder, Elwind on chapters with flying units or a long-range tome (long-range tomes are so much fun to use), Elthunder, or Thoron, for the tricksy ones, and, once he promotes, a staff. What's that? A staff? Can Boyd use a staff? I didn't think so.
He won't be killing the beast laguz in one hit even with a laguz axe, and then he'll take a counterattack. He won't double the cats, and the tigers can do quite a bit of damage with thier extremely high str and hit, and he might not even double those. Soren's not taking the counterattack, and he's much more likely to kill them than Boyd is. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Yzarc | Sep 15 2006, 08:41 PM Post #5 |
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Coxian
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Boyd has 4 more strength than Kieran. He is not replaced by Kerian as the best offensive melee character in the game. If anybody COULD replace Boyd in the later chapters, it would be Largo. But Boyd's significance comes much earlier than Largo.
In situations where THEY, themselves, won't be counterattacked...Yes. Archers, Snipers, Javeliners and mages will tend to attack your melee characters that can't counter. And Enemy melee units will tend to attack your archers. Those situations aren't all too common, though, and in the situations where the enemy is going to get counterattacked either way, the guys with low defense and HP, like Soren, are going to be taking hits.
And, again, with that kind of tactical mindset, Soren will be down and out before you know it.
All depends on how you look at it. Both Oscar and Boyd are good at taking hits in the early game...But why only use one? Their overall purposes still differ.
Making Boyd still the best, even if only by a margin of 0.4. Aside from that, Boyd can still carry weapons that allow him to have even MORE attack. Soren is stuck with Elwind or Thunder with a lousy +4 to his attack. Meanwhile, Boyd, with an Iron Axe, gets a +8 right from the start. Soren actually has to wait until he either gets a Thunder or an Elwind. Until then, he's stuck with +2 from Wind. Let's also not forget that he doesn't get his first point of strength 'till way later on, with only a 5% chance to actually get one. Without that strength, his speed drops and there goes his biggest up on Boyd.
But Soren's available weapons are so shitty that early on that his double attacks won't kill. If he gets a double + adept, he probably will, yeah...But Boyd WILL kill everytime he DOES double. And you're overstating his crit. Thunder gives +5. Killer Axe gives +30. Not to mention, Boyd can carry it perfectly once he hits level 11. Soren can wield Thunder well as a level 20/2 Sage. That's rediculous. If he uses it before he promotes at all, he'll actually have LESS speed than Boyd.
The other part is when only one supporter is there. He's still there. Did you mention the part where no supporters are there and that Boyd can actually hold his own?
Paladin v Soren Paladin (Short Axe) Attack: 18/39 Hit: 35% From this, without supports, we see that the Paladin will kill Soren in three hits. This we already knew. But now, holy shit, the paladin is actually hitting 1/3 times. That's not to mention that there are enemies out there with higher skill that will hit even MORE often, with MORE accurate weapons. Sure Soren kills him in three hits, two turns. Let's take a look at Boyd. Paladin v Boyd Paladin (Short Axe) Attack: 12/59 Hit: 38% So against Boyd the Paladin does 6 less damage towards Boyd's 20 extra HP and with only a 3% higher chance to hit. Generally speaking, against physical attackers, Boyd will have barely less evasion, more HP to take the hit and will actually take far less damage.
Basically, he gets hit more often after we take away the supports.
Ah, but even one hit puts him in mortal danger. It's dangerous putting him on the field because if he takes even a single hit, you gotta be on that ASAP, healin' him up or else he's likely to die on the next turn. It's possible he'll die before you even get a chance to heal him. Also, saying that always being able to counterattack is a good reason for putting Soren pretty much anywhere will get him killed. High attack units LOVE attacking low defense, low HP units. He's almost a SURE target.
Crit is +5, not nearly as high as you make it seem. Adept is good, but it's unreliable. He's a good boss killer if you put him against a boss that won't move and won't counter him, but those are rediculously rare. Otherwise, sending Soren into a boss's attack range might prove to be fatal.
Ike can support with better units. Pretty much all of his support options are good...Why Soren over any of them?
Tormod and Callil tend to be better magic users. They have defense and resistance enough to hold their own as well as strength to carry some decent tomes. Tormod has better speed, luck and strength than Soren, being a better all around evader, as well as the capacity to use all magic except Rexbolt, Bolting and Meteor without losing any of his speed. Thoron, which he can use perfectly, gives him +10 to his attack, giving him 35 power. Soren has 34 with Thunder, as well as less attack speed. Give Soren anything higher and his evasion suffers significantly. Yes, magic users are made to pick of enemy melee units quickly...But adding Soren on top of Tormod and Callil, who is similar, statistically, to Tormod is just taking away a slot on your team for a more important role...Flyers, Laguz, Tanks, Heavy Melee Attackers *cough*Boyd*cough*, hardcore healers, mounted units. A team of mages will own during Player Phase, but will get owned even harder during Enemy Phase.
The chances of that are slim. Elthunder has 10 crit. Boyd has 17 luck. That means that the Sage must have 15-16 skill to even have 1% crit on Boyd. A Sage with 26 skill and Elthunder will have 6 crit on Boyd. While possible...It's hardly there. Also, Boyd has 59 HP. He's got 11 Res. Elthunder does 7 damage. If the mage has 20 Magic, he's doing 27 damage. Subtract Boyd's 11 Res and it's 16. 16 x3 = 48. Boyd can take a crit. Not well...But he can take it.
In situations where your supporter isn't on hand, Soren's evasion is barely higher, not nearly enough to make up for the lack in defense and HP. And if Boyd can take a crit from a sage, don't you think he can take a crit from a sniper? He takes 15 less damage from the sniper...He's fine.
No...He really can't. His evasion isn't THAT high. He gets a rediculous amount from an A with Stefan, granted, but that's assuming you get that A and that Stefan is nearby.
Bolting - 9 Less speed for Soren. Meteor - 7 Less speed for Soren Tornado - 1 Less speed for Soren Elthunder - 2 Less speed for Soren Thoron - 3 Less speed for Soren For a character that relies so much on evasion and double attacking, I'd not recommend anything aside from Thunder and Elwind. So...I'd stick with Thunder, Elwind and a Staff. Yes, a staff. No, Boyd CAN'T use a staff, but why the fuck would he ever want to? Mist, though, Mist can heal. So can Elincia. So can Reyson. So can Rhys. So can Tormod. But are you going to use all of them? Just because they can heal? Absolutely not.
Boyd will be doing a rediculous amount of damage to the Laguz. He'll likely kill them either halfway or more and, no, Soren is not more likely to kill them than Boyd. His "bonus" against the Laguz is small since he's using crappy weapons. If you're not using Fire, as you said you weren't earlier, than you don't do ANY bonus to Beasts. You get a small bonus against Ravens and Dragons but your damage is so small since you're using Thunder and Elwind that you still won't be doing as much as Boyd with a Laguz Axe. Granted, you CAN use stuff of higher might and weight, but how much of that are you gonna carry around with you? |
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| Reikken | Sep 16 2006, 03:43 AM Post #6 |
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So how is Soren replaceable? He has 3 more mag than Ilyana AND 4 more spd. Tormod and Calill aren't gotten until later in the game, and even when you do get them, they're still worse. Tormod has less mag and less spd (I know at 20/20 Tormod has a marginal lead, but at all the earlier levels, Soren is winning), has worse supports, and on top of that, he comes horribly underleveled. Calill doesnt' have staves, comes even later, and still loses out in both spd and mag. Her supports don't fail as hard as Tormod's, but Soren's still beats hers, and his supports will be nearing completion before she can have a chance to get any at all. Anyway, even if Calill or Tormod were a match for Soren, they come too late to replace him. Illyana is his only competition, and her spd fails hard. Yea, she has more str than Soren, but even she can't use Thunder without AS loss until lv 14, and at lv 14, Soren's higher mag will let him do just as much dmg with Wind as she can do with Thunder (0.2 less, whatever) and keep his AS lead, or he can use the heavier Thunder tome and still have almost as much AS (3 wt - 0.6 str {Yes, 0.6, not 0. There's even a chance he can get a str on the very first levelup.} = 2.4 AS loss. 13.2 spd - 2.4 = 10.8. just 0.6 less than Illyana's 11.4) while having a significant atk lead. Those small disadvantages that come with the larger advantages will quickly disappear and soon will also become advantages for Soren, with his 10% higher growth in each stat. If you compare at lower levels than 14, she doesn't have the advantage of str, so Soren wins even more. Boyd's only advantage against Kieran is his str, as the hp is more than made up for by the def. Kieran has more spd, def, mov, Knight Ring-type move, better class skill, and better supports. His Oscar support alone gives him 22 avo. Soren has the atk power and more, while Boyd has the atk and loses everywhere else. If either of them is replaceable, it's Boyd. And one other thing: The only stat that can be easily compensated for is atk. Forging is awesome. It's not even very expensive (I don't remember the cost of axes, but a maxed mt thunder tome is 6693, less than 10% of chapter 19's funds gain alone), as you get so much money during the game. Kieran can make up for the atk with a forged weapon. No, he doesn't have to use it all the time, as his str is already pretty high, and he uses axes, but anywhere that Boyd would be able to kill while Kieran wouldn't be able to, Kieran can bust out the forgery. So, another loss for Boyd, and another advantage for Soren, since a forged tome is just as good, if not better than, the heavier higher level tomes.
Enemies that can attack at 2 range are actually pretty common. Except in the beginning of the game, but that's what Shinon and his bows + Provoke combo is for.
Whatyu talkin bout, Willis? So now attacking out of the enemy's countering range is bad tactics? Grr...they never send me the memos...
Hehe, except you clearly said "he is the guy on your team that can best take hits during the Gatrie-less levels", which is not true. Oh yea, Shinon is better at taking hits too. So that's Titania, Shinon, and Oscar (and Gatrie). That's over half the team. Only the 2 magicky d00ds and Ike are left, though the only one without any defensive advantages on Boyd is Rhys, though Rhys has the advantage of never ever ever being counterattacked, since... he doesn't attack. Ike has more of both def and avo than Boyd. Soren has more avo, doesn't get counterattacked, and is less likely to be attacked. And he can attack from behind Gatrie or Titania or something, while Boyd has to get up close. Until you factor in the def/res gap. Let's also not forget that Boyd starts out with 3 AS loss in addition to his already lower spd. No doubling for j00! ("j00!" = Boyd), which means no killing for j00! either. Soren is doubling and has has Adept. Though he doesn't have his uberly massive skl that early in the game for his Adept to go off constantly, his skl base is huge, and his skl growth is huge too (In fact, it looks like only Stefan and Volke {and the big 3} have more skl.), and he double attacks, giving Adept 2 chances to go off. And don't discount the chance that he can possibly even get a str on his first levelup. Soren's AS loss will average to less than a full 1 point.
Um, no. A less than one AS loss doesn't make up for a more than two spd lead. And Boyd is even worse off at the earlier levels, because he too is losing AS, and he's losing alot more than Soren is. Unless you're talking about Thunder. Yes, once Boyd recovers from his axe's weight, Soren's AS drops to 0.6 less than Boyd's when he uses Tunder, but it's not like he'll need the extra mt for every opponent, especially since he has Adept and def/res gap, and with Wind, the extra AS for doubling when Boyd can't. And when he does use thunder, he has a 7 crit lead over Boyd that grows a bit since Soren has a much higher skl base and a slightly higher growth. Not all that much by itself, but it adds onto the Adept and stuff. And Boyd's AS is so shitty that early on he can't DA at all. Once he gains a few levels he can get knights and stuff, or the stray fighter with a massively heavy hammer or something. The problem is, he's hardly doubling at all. And when do you get killer axes? The first one is chapter 14's boss if I'm not mistaken, which is pretty close to promo time. Boyd's near worthless on chapter 15, where Soren can roam freely, so that means chapter 16 is the first place he can use his killer axe, one chapter away from the usual promotion chapter. Yes, yes. But, like I said, he won't need the extra mt for every opponent, and for the few opponents that he needs extra mt AND the AS for, just use a forged tome. It's only about 300 extra to reduce the wt to 1.
First off, you said "First of all, those are all assuming that both characters are always near BOTH supporters", and yes, "BOTH" was in all caps like that. Secondly, why would you ever not use supports? I mean, really. Unless you're doing a special no-support playthough... And speaking of special playthroughs, Soren is possibly the best character in the game at soloing. He has the massive offense, 1-2 range, good avo even without supports, though he'll have a support anyway, since Ike always has to be there, and then give him Vantage, and he's all set to pwn. But enough of that. Or did you mean that maybe they wouldn't be in range of each other? The only time that would happen is if one of them, probably Soren because of his 1-2 range and massive offense, went to go pick off a few stray enemies, and in that case he would just be up against a small group, one of which dies off right away, so no threats to him there.
Yea, indeed, but... why are you not using supports? If it's about them not being in range, why are they not in range? Supports have 3 range, and Soren and Ike both have 1-2 range on the attacks, so they can reach enemies that have up to 6 spaces between them while still being in range, and Soren can heal allies at range too, and a pretty big range at that, with all that mag of his, so yea, no need to separate. Sending units off by themselves is pretty risky anyway. If you send them in pairs, you can still split up quite a bit, and not only is are the units not alone, but they also get support bonuses, so I don't see why you wouldn't do it.
There's not endless seas of enemies. They're usually stationary and come in groups, and you kill off much of the group as you arrive, so much fewer, if any, are left to attack you on enemy phase. Even if he does take some hits, by that time, there's usually no enemies left nearby, or there are few enough that they can all, or at least mostly, be killed off that turn. Hmm, now that I think about it, defense is actually pretty overhyped in these debates. How else are people able to get through the game using Rhys? It's because of all those things I mentioned above. So anyway, yea, if the field has a high concentration of enemies nearby, Soren shouldn't be sent out in front, since he'll kill them all and give each one a chance to take a hit on him, giving him a good chance of dying. But first of all, that's usually not the case, and second of all, even if that is the case, there's usually other enemies that need to be picked off, units that need to be healed, reinforcements coming from the rear, etc. And he can still kill stuff on the frontlines without being on the frontline when the player phase is over. Just have him be one of the first units to go up and kill someone in the way so that the Paladins and stuff can go up farther and attack units farther up or something. So yea, Soren can take attacks pretty well if he needs to, but there's not as much hit taking as you would like to believe, and Soren is better than Boyd at pretty much everything else.
Soren's high skl makes it more, and Elthunder has 10, and if he really wants the extra crit, a 40 use, max mt, 14 crit Thunder tome only costs about 9000, I believe. Adding crit to tomes isn't nearly as expensive as adding it to physical weapons. And he has Adept to go with the crit to make the chances higher of something happening.
Sure it's not 100%, but it's still very effective, and combine Adept with crit and DA, and the chances are pretty good that something will happen. Anwyway, it doesn't need to be certain to activate for it to be of use. Strategies and tactics shouldn't be set in stone. You change what you do depending on what happens. Adept activates and a strong enemy is obliterated from one attack? Great, have the other unit (or units, plural, in case of a really strong enemy, like a dragon) that would have attacked it go kill another enemy or something. Less enemies that attack during enemy phase.
Lol, it's not like he dies in one hit. He's not going to be getting doubled. Even Boyd is hard to DA, so Soren certainly won't be getting DA'd. Anyway, bosses that don't move are not rare at all, and alot of the time the bosses that can counter him are using magic, and Soren's res is pretty massive. Also, Soren is often killing the boss in one round because of his high atk, res targeting, Adept, good crit, and farily high spd. And when he doesn't kill the boss in one turn, either sic Reyson on him, heal him, shove him, or have someone else finish the boss off. Or he evades the hit with his high avo, and you don't have to do anything at all; just wait for the boss to suicide on him. Or just don't have him actually attack the boss; just move in range, then on the next turn, the boss attacks, and then finish the boss off on player phase. Etc.
Why not Soren? Unlike Boyd, Soren has a good affinity. Soren comes early, so the support starts early. All Ike's other supports both go into effect later and give worse bonuses, with the exception of the Oscar support. And the Oscar support's bonuses aren't really all that much better: 30 avo vs 22 avo + 1 atk, and Oscar is one of those mounted d00ds, so he's more likely to be separated from Ike, meaning the Soren support is probably a bit better for Ike. And on the other side, Oscar has a pretty good support with Kieran, and Kieran is also a mounted d00d, so Kieran is probably a better choice for Oscar. What about Boyd? Mist has better supports with Jill and Mordecai and faster supports with Titania and Rolf; Brom has a better support with Zihark, and his Nephenee one is just as good; Titania is all mounted and stuff and has better supports with Ike and Mist, and a faster, though not really better, support with Rhys; and Ulki comes late and has a better support with Mordecai. Not that Boyd's getting much out of his supports anyway, which is probably why you're so against supports. Hehe. I went over it at the top, but it won't hurt to counter what you have here. and Soren has better avo, which is the more important stat since they're probably going to be dying in the same number of hits anyway, and his higher mag means he's doing the same amount of damage with a weaker tome, and don't forget that forged Thunder, which has as little weight as you want it to have, is likely the best tome in the game. Only 20/16 and on. Soren actually is the one with the higher spd before that, not that they're ever going to be on the same level, as horribly underleveled as Tormod is. Sure you can give him bexp, but that takes away bexp that could otherwise go to another unit, thus hurting your team overall, and all that for a unit that isn't even better than your existing mage even once leveled up. Only by about 3 when it's at its peak (20/20). At 20/1, they're tied, and that's only without support bonuses. Soren actually crushes him in avo. Again, that's only at 20/20, and there's only one 20 use Thoron tome in the game, and a forged Thunder tome has only 1 less mt, and twice as many uses, and doesn't need the A in Thunder that Tormod will probably never get with the E he starts with on that late of a chapter. Calill, being statistically similar to Tormod, is inferior for the mostly same reasons, with the main difference being that she doesn't have staves instead of being horribly underlevelled. Anyway, since Soren is the superior unit, he would be getting the slot first. Heh, I donno about those roles being more important than mages. At least, not Laguz and heavy melee attackers. The male Paladins can usually serve as tanks as well as mounted units, and someone like Jill can serve as three: flying, tank, and mounted, but yea, it's nice to have a variety of units. Like I said above, it's not an endless sea of enemies. There usually won't be much left to attack the team of mages during the enemy phase.
Again with the 20/20... it was a joke anyway, but it's more likely than you say it is. I meant more like that one by the boss on ch 16 or one of those in chpater 17 or something. At 20/1, he only has 10 lck, 6.5 res, and 46 hp. A lv 16 mage would have 10 skl and 12-14 mag, so that's 5% crit and 13+7-6.5 = 13.5 x 3 = 40.5 damage. So if he's at full health and already promoted, he survives. If both of those conditions aren't met, he dies. As I said already, there's really no reason Ike and Soren should be out of range.
Heh, 20/20 again. Let's go back to chapter 16/17, where the first snipers show up. At this point, he's probably about level 18 maybe. A level 1 sniper has about 11 str and 16 skl, so with a steel bow, which is what they usually have equipped, that's 20 atk and 23 crit. 13% crit and 11x3= 33 of his 39 hp. But this one was kindof a joke too. How can something be kindof a joke? I dunno lol ¯\(º_o)/¯
Ike* ? And yea, *points to stuff said above*
He's probably not going to be getting attacked; these things have huge range. Even if he does get attacked, it means he's closer to where the enemies are, so he should still be near Ike, so his avo is still greater than Boyd's, and he won't be killing the enemies that come to him, so he'll only be open to a few attacks before he gets his own disposeable meatshield. One speed? Eh, not so bad; still more than Boyd, and way more than enough to DA a wyvern. These he would only use on the ones that he can either kill in one hit with the extra mt, or are slow enough to still DA. A surprisingly large number of enemies fit into one of these categories.
If he needs the avo because there's lots of enemies around, which is rare, he probably won't use the heavy stuff, and if he needs the spd for the DA, he won't use the heavy stuff. He can still use it even if there are loads of enemies around; someone could trade with him to put a different weapon at the top, since you can still perform actions after trading. Sounds like someone is jealous. Yes, Mist can heal. Elincia is very underlevelled. You have to burn all of your bexp to even make her useable, so she's not a good choice. Reyson can only heal at the start of player phase if you're right next to him, and only whatever his mag is, and he dies even more easily than Rhys. He actually will often die in one hit, so it's best to keep him as far away from the enemy as possible. Rhys is pretty good at healing, but he's not too good at anything else. He can't DA becuase his speed is abysmal, light magic is the worst mag type in the game as it is the heaviest, weakest, and least accurate, he has even less str than Soren, he has less def than Soren (until 20/10), he has less hp than Soren, and his avo is about the same as Boyd's. Tormod is worse than Soren and comes horribly underlevelled. Anyway, having only one healer isn't a good idea. Not all of them, obviously, since some of them suck. You can't downplay this so easily because it's nothing to scoff at. Not only can Soren use staves, but he's one of the best with them because of his huge mag. Only Rhys has more mag, but, like I said, he sucks at everything else and having only one healer is not a good move. Even two healers can be risky at times. Since there won't be enemies to kill on every turn (not an endless sea of enemies), on the turns that there's no, or few, live enemies in range, Soren can heal someone, meaning that he'll be getting more exp than the other units, and his staff level will go up pretty quickly. 10 uses to D, and 14 more to C, where he gets Physics and can start pwning with them.
Even though he's not doing as much per hit as Boyd with a Laguz Axe, Boyd is taking a hard counterattack, and is often not DAing. Cats = no DA, Tigers = usually DA, but harder counterattack. Soren DAs and has the Adept+crit+DA = high chance of bonus damage for the kill, so yes, he is indeed much more likely to kill than Boyd. And no, he will probably not use Thunder or Elwind. He brings out his forged tome for the tougher opponents. Actually, now that I look at thier stats, a DA with Thunder is enough to kill them. 44 hp and 9 res for a level 11 cat: 34 - 9 = 25. 25 x 2 = 50. 10 res and 48 hp for a level 15 tiger. 34 - 10 = 24 x 2 = 48. Barely enough, but that's with unforged Thunder and no supports. Boyd can kill with a DA, but that's with a DA that he will often not be getting. The level 11 cat has 18-19 spd, and the level 11 tiger has 16. He can usually DA the tigers, but not the cats. And if you're looking at his 20/20 stats and saying, "No, he can DA that cat", that's not the endgame cat. The endgame level 13 ones have 20-21 spd. So in overall, while Boyd has more RNG proof durability, Soren is better at everything else, and durability is generally overhyped anyway. There's just not going to be that many enemy attacks to take at a time, and Soren's 1-2 range to avoid counterattacks + massive avo is more than enough to deal with what comes his way. Soren is better offensively because of 1-2 range, attacking res, AS, and Adept+crit. And Soren has staves, which Boyd has nothing to counter with. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Yzarc | Sep 17 2006, 01:50 PM Post #7 |
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Coxian
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We all already know that Soren beats Ilyana. Ilyana is the suck. But to say that Tormod is bad because he comes underleveled and because his supports aren't as good as Soren's is wrong. This is because, first of all, Tormod and Calill can support with each other. A team of powerful ass mages. Together, they get insane damage. Even aside from supports, Tormod owns Soren. It's not like he's a Nino that comes before it's possible to level him up. Plus that, bonus exp works well exactly for these kinds of situations. By this time, Astrid will have caught up to the rest of your team (or at least to the point where she can hold her own relatively well) and you can put a few points into Tormod. It's worth it, considering he's the best mage. He loses out to Soren a bit in Res, Skill and Mag, but owns so hard in Str that Mag is actually a win for him. Similarly, when Res is that high, a few extra points become less and less significant. Calill using daggers is a downside, yes, but...You know, whatever...More room for tomes. She has the strength to use some good tomes, comes as a high leveled character, so you don't have to blow much exp on her and is RNG-proof.
Boyd and Kieran are on completely different levles. Boyd isn't BETTER than Kieran but Kieran isn't BETTER than Boyd. They play two different roles. While these roles are similar, neither really replaces the other. It is not at all a bad thing to use both Kieran and Boyd. And even Kieran WAS "better" it doesn't replace Boyd considering Boyd still does the most damage per attack of any melee unit, save Largo.
Forge can also compensate for Skill, buddy, considering you can increase Hit and Crit. As well as speed, since you can lower weight (though that doesn't really apply to high strength characters like Boyd) So...Kieran can use a forged axe and beat out Boyd by a little bit. Boyd can use a forged axe and do rediculous damage, almost definetely killing an enemy, possibly in a hit depending on the enemy. Saying you can use the forge isn't really a big thing because everyone can use the forge and everyone can either compensate for their flaws or make their strengths even more superior.
Not nearly as common as the units that are gonna get countered regardless of who they attack.
Whoa! Talk about a mis-read. I thought you said "Doesn't have to worry about being attacked" just in general. My apologies. Anyway, regardless, counterattacks should never worry anyone, considering you're in complete control of who counterattacks you. Boyd can avoid them as well, considering he has Bows and Axes at his disposal as well as some ranged Axes.
His high HP allows for him to take a lot of hits, both magical and physical. His HP is rediculous and on the level where Gatrie and Shinon leave, Boyd is your best bet for taking out those knights on the far right, simply because he has so much HP that he can take their hits, along with the archers...Plus he has the hammer. Or just give him a Steel Axe and he'll double attack, dodge a few times and still kill the knights in a single turn, considering he'll be counterattacking them.
Similarly, Boyd will absolutely destroy mages, where Soren won't. And even besides that, Boyd does so much more damage than Soren that, even when you DO factor that in, he'll still do more damage in many situations simply due to his ability to get rediculously powerful axes.
Boyd also comes earlier than Soren and you're likely to have him at a decent level by the time you DO get Soren. Level 7 Boyd loses no attack speed from an Iron Axe and even has more speed than level 1 Soren AS WELL AS 18 attack. Soren has 8. Granted, that's a huge level difference but it's quite expected that Boyd will at least be level 5 by the time you get Soren. Level 5 Boyd does 16.8 damage in one hit with an Iron Axe. Soren still does only 8 on one attack. Boyd's speed is only 0.6 lower and Soren won't be doubling many unis that Boyd won't. Even if Soren DID double an enemy, he'd still do less damage. And as far as the strength thing goes...There's also a chance he won't get one at all until on promotion! D=
But Boyd doesn't RELY on speed to own. That's the difference and even 1 point of speed loss for Soren is a big hit.
Let's not forget how quickly Boyd recovers from his axe's weight. 5 levels. After 1-2 levels it's only a 2 speed loss and after 3-4 levels it's only a 1 speed loss. No one double attacks, save Titania, in the earliest chapters anyway. Even if the enemies have ZERO res, Soren will only do 8 damage in one hit at level 1, 13.4 damage at level 10, and so on with Wind. 13.4 x2 = 26.8 and most enemies will have more HP than that. When you do land that Adept, yeah, you'll likely kill them but that's such a low chance early on.
He can double quite a few things. Just not Laguz and myrmidons. Soldiers, though, he can generally double, as well as fighters, brigands and knights.
You couldn't be more wrong, sir. He doubles quite a few units throughout the game. His level advantage on the enemies usually helps quite a bit with that and, by the end, his speed will be great enough to double every enemy with less speed than 20 at a high amount of damage each hit.
Boyd's not any more useless than any other non-mage, but that doesn't mean you're only gonna use your mage characters...All three of them.
He probably WILL need the extra mt...Wind is +2. That's +4 with a double. Boyd gets +8 with a SINGLE, +16 with a double. His doubles aren't as rare as you say they are and so generally, Boyd is way more likely to kill than Soren is. As far as forging goes, I think that point's pretty moot, considering Boyd can get a forged axe or bow as well.
It's not that you won't use supports, but your supporter simply can't be there at all times. Let's ALSO not forget that Ike has better support options than Soren.
Hah...Hah...Hah! I...Don't know why you even put this here, but whatever. Soren's 1-2 range will not save him from myrmidons/Swordmasters, Soldiers/Halberdiers and archers/snipers on the enemy phase. These guys do enough damage to destroy Soren at a high enough hit that he won't dodge every time. He won't even dodge 2/3 of the time. It'll probably be an average of 50% dodge, but when 4 hits from these high skill, low strength units kill, Soren = Dead.
Mostly that Ike and Stefan oftentimes have different roles than Soren and that you'd be going out of your way to keep them together. Better to support units that are likely to be together otherwise.
Because you can't always have your entire party together. Sometimes you HAVE to split up and a lot of the times you'll be A-B supporting with nearly everyone and you CAN'T have them all together. You send Soren and Ike out by themselves, Soren's evasion won't be that godly.
Mainly because Rhys is almost always completely blocked off from all enemy attacks. And...Overhyped? I don't even...What? How can you say that? Defense and HP are garunteed. Relying on evasion is dumb simply because you're always at risk.
That's weird. Boyd can be sent out to the front to deal with them. Oh well.
In other words: Baby him. If I'm gonna baby a mage, he better be the best fucking mage in the game...That's why I won't baby Soren. Tormod wins.
I almost lol'd, for realz. "Only costs about 9000" do you realize how much that is? It's a whole lot! 'Sides...Killer Axe is still more.
Something you gotta keep in mind, though, is that sometimes, killing an enemy isn't necessarily a good thing. Maybe Astrid was gonna kill that Crow and get 100 exp. But Soren had to go and be a douchebag and tripple attack it.
Bosses that don't move: Not rare. Bosses that can't counter Soren: Rare as hell. Most of the physical bosses have javelins, short axes or whatever. There are very, very few that have a melee weapon, don't move and can't counter from 2 spaces. Soren is likely to get killed in two hits and, no, his high attack will not kill any bosses in a single turn. Most bosses have extra res for their classes. His crit with Thunder at 20/20 is 19. It's not that great and you won't be at 20/20 until way late in the game. Adept is a rarity. Basically, he's really likely, against a boss to just attack twice and get countered. Then you have to either kill that boss with someone else or get Soren out of the way somehow.
Elincia, should you decide to use her. I either use her or Mist for magic swords. Aside from that, a flying healer is really good. Speaking of flying healers, Reyson! Ike can support with him too! He's really good. Hey, speaking of Laguz, it's Ranulf! Ike has really good supports with all of these people. His support with Soren is just as good except that Soren's not all that great, while Reyson, Elincia and Ranulf are all really powerful.
Mordecai isn't that great, of all the Laguz. Janaaf and Ranulf are easily the best. So Mist's good supports boil down to Titania, Boyd and Jill. Titania's good supports are Ike, Boyd and Mist. Rhys is overshadowed by Mist simply because of her significance in the Black Knight Battle. Basically, why the hell NOT make a Boyd, Mist, Titania triangle of supports? Boyd - A Titania, B Mist Titania - A Boyd, B Mist Mist - B Boyd, B Titania It can really go in any order or triangle but it's all good. No support bonus is "better" than another it basically just boils down to which character is the best. And Boyd's supports ARE good, by the way. He gets a point of defense with both, some hit from both, easily making up for axes having low hit as well as either 3 attack or 1 attack, just further boosting his godly damage. Soren's supports are pretty much all based around evasion. And where do you get that I'm against supports? I've never played a game of Fire Emblem, including my first game of FE7, without getting at least 3 A Supports. I'm just saying that it's not always best to keep two characters near each other just for a few stat bonuses.
Soren does not have better avoid than Tormod. His speed is 24.9 and his luck is 16.4. Tormod's speed is 25.1 and his luck is 19.2. Tormod has more speed AND luck than Soren, as well as strength so that his speed won't be dropped. And shut up already about that forged Thunder tome. It costs too much money to be worth it when you can just as easily use Tormod without wasting all that gold.
Bonus exp is going to someone. Tormod's a damn good choice.
Taking into account support bonuses, Tormod crushes Soren in damage as well. No support is better, they're all statistically even.
Okay...And why is it that you can't give that forged tome to Tormod? Oh wait, you didn't GIVE a reason!
Calill isn't inferior to Soren. Don't know about you, but I'm not going to be training two mages. You don't seem to want to either, considering you seem to believe that Soren is the only acceptable magic user and that, even though they ARE useful for dealing massive damage to melee units, you seem to believe that you can still only ever use one: Soren. Well, if I'm ONLY going to use one, which I won't, I'll use Tormod. But if I'm going to use two, the other wouldn't be Soren, who I'll have to train...It'll be Calill who comes at a high level already. Plus that, Calill and Tormod can support for uber attack damage.
Laguz are insanely powerful when they're in morphed form and can easily kill almost any unit in a single go. Heavy Melee Attackers are teh pwn and here's why: *Insert every post of mine so far of this debate*. Generally, I'd rather take Gatrie than just a male paladin and call him a tank.
When a single one of your mages doesn't kill the enemy in a single turn (which is, for the most part, true, mainly due to the low attack of tomes) you won't own hard enough to leave the enemies so weak that they can't kill off a lot of your mages. And while there may not be an endless sea of enemies, there do tend to be a lot.
On the extremely rare 5%, yeah.
Except that Soren shouldn't even be on your team at all, due to the ownage of Calill and Tormod. That's a good enough reason, methinks.
Then why say it? You make an almost point and then just take it back, saying it was a joke? Whatever.
Right. Ike. Yeah. He DOES get evasion from Stefan though! =D
The point, though, is that he won't be double attacking with these weapons. Tormod IS likely to DA with these weapons, making him all the more useful.
Well, considering it's barely a +6 to mt...Yeah, the Wyvern'll die. But Tormod and Calill can do the same thing.
Or you could just give them to Tormod who can own even harder with them. =D
Then again, you have badasses like Boyd who aren't at any real disadvantage regardless of the weapon they're carrying. In the situations where every action isn't obvious and something MIGHT happen that you didn't expect, Boyd's way better off. Soren bases his entire strategy on being lucky.
If Boyd had the magic to use staves and he had the weapon, he'd still be wasting his turns that he could be using owning the shit out of enemies.
I agree that Rhys sucks the balls. But Reyson is extremely useful. Not only can he allow badasses like Boyd (  ) to go again but he can heal really well. Elincia is kind of underleveled, yeah, but she comes with enough HP, Defense and Res to survive a few hits from the enemies, as well as a badass sword to allow her to get levels quicker by getting kills. And no, Tormod is NOT worse than Soren. He's better.
Tormod is still better with his only SLIGHTLY lower Magic. Generally, with healing, you don't NEED to be able to heal a lot, just a sufficient amount. Most of the guys that are gonna be taking hits won't be near low life...Unless you use Soren. But why would you do that?
Again with the Forged Tomes. I'm not even gonna say it this time. Oh, and... 34 - 9 = 25. 25 x 2 = 50 Where did you get the 34? Soren has 29 Mag at level 20/20 so, with a Thunder he'd have 33. Also, that's assuming you're at 20/20. What did you tell me? Oh, that's right.
Something tells me their res will be higher as well.
Ehem... Boyd is reliably able to take more hits. He deals more damage with his slightly higher attack, plus his ability to use axes for really high bonus damage. He doesn't lose any speed from any of his axes. He is able to kill generals with hammers, Laguz with Laguz Axe, Cavalry with Poleaxe, Flyers with Bows, most likely the Killer Bow since he won't get that high level in Bows. Said Killer Bow will give him more crit than Soren with any thunder tome. He can also carry a Silver Axe for mad damage and accuracy or a Killer Axe for crit. He has more weapons available to him, essentially. He's more durable, more versatile, does more damage in most situations and isn't replaced by anyone except possibly Largo way later on in the game, while Soren is easily replaced by two magic users: Tormod and Calill. Tormod is the best and Calill requires no wasting exp. While Soren may be good with forged weapons...Who isn't? To make Soren worth using, you have to both spend a lot of money from the forge on him and support him with Ike, who's better off with someone else. Or there's Boyd who's good regardless of if he supports or not. He's good even if you don't ever waste money at the forge on him. He's perfect for simply dealing damage. Against those Laguz, he's perfect for lowering their HP just enough for Nephenee or Astrid to get the kill, while he also has enough speed to DA most of the time, allowing him to almost always have a leg up on your party in levels (save Titania). He has an auto-support whever he's near either Oscar, easily one of the better units. Soren has NO In-Built supports. Boyd is easily one of the most useful units in the game, consistantly being stronger than all of your opponents and being the perfect killer of pretty much any class, save myrmidons and cats. |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 18 2006, 08:25 PM Post #8 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Send your votes to me, judges.
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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8:41 PM Nov 28
