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| Hollie vs JediSSJ | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 12 2006, 11:24 PM (293 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Sep 12 2006, 11:24 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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3 posts each. Get to it, Hollie! |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| +Hollie | Sep 14 2006, 03:22 PM Post #2 |
Resident Brit
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Why do I have to go first? Meeeaaannniiiieee!  Ah, Oscar vs. Kieran, Green vs. Red, Brock wannabe vs. bear killer. Undoubtably, both Kieran and Oscar are great characters, who is the more useful? That is what I'm going to prove. . . in Kierans favour, of course
Stat-wise, Oscar and Kieran are pretty evenly matched. There is, however, one area Kieran excels in noticeably above Oscar: Strength. Not only is Kieran's strength 1.5 higher, but Kieran also uses axes, which furthers his advantage. After promotion, Oscar could very well add axes to his weapon selection, but Kieran would still be slightly ahead. At any rate, I suspect that Kieran would stick with axes most of the time and Oscar with Lances. Their growths are a little more different. Kieran exchanges 5 % in magic, luck and resisitance for an extra 5% in HP, strength, skill and defence. Whilst neither of them exactly fail in these areas, it does make Kieran a bit more sturdy and less prone to RNG rape. Bases - well, they both have great bases. But comparing a Level 3 and a Level 12 isn't really going to work very well. Let's compare a level 12 Oscar to a level 12 Kieran: Oscar wins in HP by .9, magic by 1.8, skill by .5, defence by 1.1 and resistance by 1.7. Kieran wins in strength by .9, speed (:blink:) by .9 and luck by .3. Going by that, you might conclude that Oscar is better, and by the averages, you'd be right - however, this is where Oscar's growths come into account. His magic, skill, defence and resistance could quite easily wind up much lower than their predicted averages due to RNG rapeage, whereas Kieran has those guaranteed bases. Even Oscar's HP could wind up lower, but a 55% growth is a bit more certain. The only serious advantage Oscar has over Kieran, I would say, is in joining time. Kieran joins you in Chapter 10, but cannot fight until chapter 11. Oscar joins in the first chapter, but can't participate in 1 or 2 chapters after that, so I make that a 8 or 9 chapter lead. This may sound like alot, but really, in those chapters Ike should be the one you're training up the most, and there are alot of axe users scattered about the place. When Kieran joins, lances are just starting to become popular, and lucky Kieran - he can gain WTA over them! When Kieran joins your team, all things considered, Oscar could be Level 14. Let's compare a Kieran's bases to a Level 14 Oscar: HP: Oscar's lead is a bit more noticeable, with a 2.0 win. Still, Kieran will make this up later with his larger growth. STR: Oscar and Kieran now DRAW in strength. Not bad for a unit with a 2 level difference, eh?  MAG: 2.2, Oscar. Clear winner here, but Kieran isn't designed to handle magic weapons. SKL: Oscar now wins by 1.5, but Kieran still has the higher, and safer, growth. SPD: They draw here, again. I thought Oscar was supposed to excel in speed?  LUK: Oscar now wins by .3, a negilible amount. It's not even a whole stat point DEF: Oscar wins by 1.8. RES: Oscar is teh winner by 2.3 In most of these stats, Oscar has the possiblility of getting RNG raped. Whilst it may appear that Oscar has the better stats of the two at this point, in reality, Oscar could quite easily end up losing out. It's something to bear in mind. Well, that concludes my first post. May the force be with you, Jedi!
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Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch.  Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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| Michael | Sep 14 2006, 04:48 PM Post #3 |
JediSSJ
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Okay, here I go . . .
Uh, actually, no. Oscar averages 23.7 Str and Kieran 25.2. Of course, you don't have decimals in Fire Emblem, so Oscar averages 24 and Kieran 25. One point difference. Hardly excelling noticably. In fact, it's negligable. Oh, and axes are only ONE point stronger than lances . . . so Kieran will average 2 points higher in attack than Oscar, in exchange for reduced accuracy. Even if Kieran could have his full 1.5 lead in Str, that is still only 2 points different in strength. Not a huge win in any way. :sweat: Anyway, for ease here are the average stats converted into actual game stats: Oscar HP: (49) Str: (24) Mag: (10) Skl: (25) Spd: (25) Def: (23) Res: (14) Lck: (16) Kieran HP: (49) Str: (25) Mag: (7) Skl: (25) Spd: (25) Def: (23) Res: (12) Lck: (15) So let's revise those comparisons . . . Stat: Winner-Decimal / Winner-Actual HP: Kieran +0.4 / Tie Str: Kieran +1.5 / Kieran +1 Mag: Oscar +3.2 / Oscar +3 Skl: Oscar +0.1 / Tie Spd: Oscar +0.2 / Tie Def: Kieran +0.2 / Tie Res: Oscar +1.7 / Oscar +2 Lck: Oscar +1.0 / Oscar +1 In reality, these two Paladins tie in HP, Skl, Spd, and Def. The only differences are Kieran's STR+1 and Oscar's MAG+3, RES+2, and LCK+1. The point? While the two are very similar, Oscar is slightly better statistically.
Heh, don't count on it. First off, Oscar also has a 5% higher Spd growth. Also, they tie in Skl growth. In reality, Oscar has +5% growths in: Spd, Mag, and Lck Kieran has +5% growths in: HP, Str, and Def They tie in: Skl However, you are really overplaying these differences. For starters, when considering a unit who starts at level 12, like Kieran, a 5% difference in growths means he gets a whole, whopping 1 point more through level-ups. For a unit like Oscar, who starts at level 3, he get 2 points more through level ups. As you pointed out, Oscar's average level 12 stats are a bit higher than Kieran's level 12 stats. But let's recheck. Level 12 Oscar/Kieran HP: O 30.9 / K 30 Str: O 10.1 / K 11 Mag: O 2.8 / K 1 Skl: O 10.5 / K 10 Spd: O 11.1 / K 12 Def: O 11.1 / K 10 Res: O 2.7 / K 1 Lck: O 7.7 / K 8 And now in real numbers: Level 12 Oscar/Kieran HP: O 31 / K 30 Str: O 10 / K 11 Mag: O 3 / K 1 Skl: O 11 / K 10 Spd: O 11 / K 12 Def: O 11 / K 10 Res: O 3 / K 1 Lck: O 8 / K 8 So . . . HP+1 Oscar STR+1 Kieran Mag+2 Oscar SKL+1 Oscar SPD+1 Kieran DEF+1 Oscar RES+2 Oscar LCK Tie So . . . what is the point? Kieran needs those three +5% growths to even catch up to Oscar by the end of the game.
And RNG rape? Don't make me laugh. Both Oscar and Kieran have high enough growths that they are more likely to be blessed than raped. Or, at the very least, they are fairly safe from RNG Rape. The main differences that the growths will cause is that: Kieran if more likely to max STR at 26 Oscar is more likely to max SPD at 27 (better growth and more levels to grow) Oscar is more likely to max SKL at 26 (more levels to grow) RNG rape is really a non-issue here, and the growths do not let Kieran overcome Oscars superior stats. Oh, and that's not even including the Bands you get after your first playthrough, with which Oscar's extra levels to level up are even more likely to bless him.
I agree that that is a big advantage for Oscar. You get Oscar on the first chapter, as one of your first units. You don't get Kieran until Chapter 11. By chapter 11, most of your units will be 2-4 levels above Kieran. As such, he'll either need to feed on precious bonus EXP or be babysat for a little bit so he can catch up. Kieran will not be very strong compared to the enemies in that chapter. He won't even double attack the heavy hitters. I haven't checked for sure, but I do believe that axes weigh him down a bit at first, dropping his Spd.
I would say level 15, which is what I did my stat comparison on. As I stated, most units will be 2-4 levels ahead. Oscar, being such a good unit, will likely be closer to 4, but lets go with the middle, 3 levels (level 15). When we consider that, the stats are: HP Oscar +2.6 (+3) STR Oscar +0.4 (Tied) MAG Oscar +2.4 (+2) SKL Oscar +2.0 (+2) SPD Oscar +0.4 (Tied) DEF Oscar +2.2 (+2) RES Oscar +2.6 (+3) LCK Oscar +0.6 (+1) So, Oscar will be significantly stronger when Kieran joins. And that's with moderate use. If you really want to level Oscar up quickly, you can have him considerably higher level by the time Kieran joins. Moderate axe users, though there are a lot of sword users too. Not to mention that Oscar will be doubling up on most of the axe-users, so he'll still be owning them.
Not really. Lances are starting to appear, but swords and axes are more common. There are a lot of sword users in Kierans first chapter. And his second? Exclusively speedy crows. There are also a good deal of crows in his third, combined with a mix of melee, though few slow lance users. Kieran needs slow units, as he will not be double attacking yet, and he has fairly poor accuracy with his axes. So . . . what is bad for an axe user with lower accuracy? Sword units and speedy units. And what do we find a lot of in Kieran's first few chapters? Sword units and speedy units. It's not "lucky Kieran," it's "poor Kieran." Keep in mind that on top of this, he will be several levels behind. So, you have Oscar longer, he has better average stats, and he is easier to use early on. Now onto supports. Oscar can support with Ike, Kieran, Janaff, and Tanith. Kieran can support with Oscar, Rhys, and Marcia. So Oscar gets the lord, one of the Hawks, a Peg Knight, and Kieran. Kieran gets one of the healers, a Peg Knight, and Oscar. With her super Skill and lack of required training, Tanith is perhaps the better Falco Knight. Rhys is decent, but should be kept away from the front line, where he'd need to be to help Kieran. In all likely hood, the best supports would be with each other, but Oscar also has the option to support with Ike, the uber Lord. Also, as a point of interest, Oscar gets an innate 10% critical bonus when he is next to either Boyd or Rolf. So the better supports? Oscar. Speaking of supports . . . if you watch the Oscar/Kieran supports, you will see that Oscar always outdoes Kieran. With his eyes closed, even! So, in summary: Statistic superiority? Oscar Better joining time? Oscar Higher level? Oscar Ease of use/training early on: Oscar Better supports? Oscar Better overall Paladin? Oscar Your turn. |
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| +Hollie | Sep 15 2006, 12:19 PM Post #4 |
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Resident Brit
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Nu-huh. Kieran has +2.5 in strength (as explained in the Debate Discussion topic. Unfair that they gave me the idea, but. . . *shrug* whatever gets the job done). Regardless of how "insignificant" this advantage is, it's fact that Kieran will kill enemies better than Oscar will. About reduced accuracy, lolol, looked at weapon stats recently? Iron Lance; Might: 7, Hit: 80 Iron Axe; Might: 8, Hit: 75 I'd gladly exchange 5% accuracy for 1 extra point of attack.
As pointed out (in Debate Discussions), those are incorrect. In this instance, you'd want rough averages. Since I can't be bothered to go find those, I guess we'll have to make do with decimal averages for now.
You're right. I've got no idea how I misread Oscar's skill as 45%, or how I missed off speed. But still, the areas Kieran beats Oscar in are arguably the more important ones - HP, STR, DEF.
Yes, but he also has safer growths in these areas. No matter how marginal, he's still sturdier and more reliable.
Unless he gets screwed. I'm not particularly fond of his resistance and defence growths especially.
So. . . what is the point? He has those growths.
Oscar has 35% defence growth and a lower base. Oscar has 30% resistance growth and a lower base.
Kieran also has a good chance of getting higher defence than Oscar. His growth/bases are safer.
Since when has it been a non-issue? Kieran's HP, strength and defence growths are higher, therefore less likely to be RNG screwed. Fact.
Give Kieran a band and the same applies to him. What was your point again?
Conceded.
Babysat? LAWL! Are we talking about the same character? If Kieran gets killed, or is at risk or it, then you fail hard. Kieran actually has a fairly decent chance of dodging the lance users; their hit is around the 50% mark.
If he isn't going to double attack, then Oscar certainly isn't. A level 14 Oscar and a Level 12 Kieran average the same speed. Even a Level 15 Oscar, which you seem to be fond of, only averages .4 more speed.
Boyd, being my uber-favourite character (:wub:), would be somewhere around Level 17 at this point. Oscar would be, oh, 13 or 14. Ike would be, say 16. Soren, anywhere from 11-13, Titania, around Level 2. How good a character is doesn't nessecarily translate to how much they're used. You obviously like Oscar enough to have him at that level, but I don't.
Iron Axe weight: 10 Kieran's strength: 10
On the other side of the coin, you might not use Oscar that much and have him around the same level as Kieran, or even lower.
Chapter 1: 1 sword user. Rest are axers. Chapter 2: 2 or 3 sword users. Rest are axers (I think?) Chapter 3: Not included. Chapter 4: Not included. Chapter 5: Mainly lance users, Oscar won't be double attacking and will take harsh damage. Chapter 6: Mainly lancers, but some sword units as well. Same as above, otherwise. Chapter 7: Mainly knights, 1 mage, some axe users and soldiers. Few myrmidons. Chapter 8: Mostly knights and archers to the east, axe/lance knights to the south, a mixture of soldiers and fighters to the west. Chapter 9: More myrmidons on this one, but still a few knights and axe users. Two mages also. Chapter 10: Mostly soldiers. A few knights. My point being, alot of those chapters are decidedly lacking in sword users. At best, Oscar will be able to meet the enemy without WTD.
In chapter 11, there are the Vigilantes, who are horribly underleveled and should be no trouble even for Kieran. Other than that, there's what, 3 or 4 sword users? Out of how many enemies?
Who will only double attack him if their speed is 16 or greater. Assuming he didn't level he and gain speed in the previous chapter.
The crows are slower than the ones in the previous chapter. . .
I believe that you calculate accuracy in this game by adding skill*2 and luck to your weapons base accuracy. 75+(10*2)+(8)=103. Very poor.
So . . . what is good for a heavy-hitting axe user with decent accuracy and good defence? Low strength units and lance users.
And what do we find a good amount of in Kieran's first few chapters? Low attack units and lance users.
It's not "lucky Kieran," it's "very lucky Kieran." Keep in mind that on top of this, he will be a few levels behind and thus gaining more experience points to help him catch up.
Agreed, but let's see who else Ike supports with for reference: Titania, Soren, Lethe, Reyson, Ranulf, Elincia.
Rolf is outclassed by Shinon and they both have less movement than Oscar. You'd have to slow him down to get that bonus.
Watch Kieran's other supports, and you'll notice that he's had an axe stuck in his head and survived.  And whilst we're on the subject of Kieran's exploits/supports. . . *He insulted Oscar, yet Oscar never attempted to disprove these. The reason? They're true. *He can fight Giant Scorpions and live to tell the tale *Torture and grevious wounds are hardly noticeable to him *No one dares sparr with him *He fights mad crocodiles and survives (though consequently he'll probably die whilst filming a stingray) *He thinks nothing of fighting wild bears. *He kills Giant Spiders *He fought the Giant Whippoorwill of Southern Crimea. Whatever that is (but it sounds dangerous!) As we can see Kieran is far too manly and tough to even be considered on the same scale as anyone else. However, his stats are not the best in the game! I can come to only one conclusion! Kieran actually appears worse than he really is! In actuality, he could probably take the whole field on by himself without any problems at all! He is merely controlling his natural ability to give himself a bit of a challenge. So, in maniliess, a clear win for Kieran. What about appearence? Compare:  Look at Oscar! Why does he have his eyes shut? I can think of only three reasons: A- He shoots lasers out of his eyes, thus must keep them closed in order to protect everyone else. B- His eyes are so disgusting that he tries to hide them. C- He wants to be like Brock from Pokemon. Now, out of these three options, I find C to be the most likely. He's not cool enough for it to be option A, option B sounds retarded. C in fact fits very well! I must conclude that Oscar is Brock wannabe! He is, whoever a very crap Brock wannabe. For example, he doesn't go flirting with every girl he sees, and his hair is nothing like Brock's. Also, he's in Fire Emblem and not pokemon. Oscar isn't even a good wannabe wannabe!  Now look at Kieran on the other hand! Apart from being incredibly sexy, he also has his eyes open! This means, in worst case senario, that he aspires to be like Ash, who strangely enough crushes Brock. He also has the added bonus of avoiding walls. As we can see from this comparison, Kieran quite clearly shows up Oscar more than enough to make up for his slightly lower stats. If you want a bear killing, forget Oscar, go for Kieran! So, in summary: Statistic superiority? Pretty much even. Better joining time? Oscar, although he is virtually un-usable and won't double attack in many chapters. Higher level? Oscar, although that depends on how much you use him. Ease of use/training early on: Kieran, since he's not totally surounded by units he gets WTD against. Better supports? Oscar, although Kieran's are much funnier. Sexiness? Clear win for Kieran. Manliess? Another clear win for Kieran. Giant deadly things extermination? Oscar isn't even in the same league. That concludes my penultimate post.
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Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch. Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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| Michael | Sep 18 2006, 08:17 PM Post #5 |
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JediSSJ
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Alright, here we go again. First,
No, actually it's a 1.5 difference we're discussing, not a 2.5 one.
Ha! Like I'm letting you get away with that! Okay, first of all, let me ask one thing, is it ever, at all, physically possible for Kieran to have 1.5 more (or less) of any stat than anyone else? Answer: No, of course not. Why? Because Fire Emblem stats only use whole numbers. As such, what use are decimals? While a character may average, say, 23.3 in a stat, they can never acually have that stat. So, in terms of actual game stats, what does this number mean? Simply put, it means that, on average, they will get a 23 in that stat, however, they have a better chance of getting a 24 than of getting a 22. So, basically, you could say these decimal averages are actually indexes of the average stat and the likelyhood of blessing vs rapage. You'll have to argue that for yourslef.
Heh, no prob. The point is that Oscar and Kieran have the same total growths, Oscar has more total stats (the most out of all Paladins), and the two will, on average, tie in most stats. As for most important stats? I prefer Spd, Skl, and Lck myself. Either way, the only stats that there are usually more than a 1 point difference in are Mag and Res.
Not really, considering he has worse base stats (by level). Sure, Kieran has very slightly safer growths in 3 areas. Oscar has slightly safer growths in 3 areas. They tie in growth for 2 areas. Of course, Oscar has more levels to take advantage of those safer growths - not to mention that even the ones Kieran beats him in slightly, Oscar is fairly safe in himself. As such, Oscar is more likely to benifit from the extra levels than be cursed.
Which, as I stated, is less likely than his being blessed and being even better. His Def and Res growths? You jest. Oscar's Def growth is only 5% below Kierans, so if it suck, so does Kieran's. And Res? They have the same growth. And Oscar only needs his Res to go up once to tie Kieran's level 12 Res. For Def he only needs 2 increases in 9 levels. I would say his growths are quite safe for that. Oscar could very easily outdo those expectancies.
The point was that he needs them to even come close because Oscar has better bases/more levels to grow.
Lower base? You're joking, right? Oscar is level 3, Kieran is level 12. Of course he has lower bases. But, what if we compare them by level? Oscar's level 3 Def is only 2 behind Kieran's level 12, and his Res is only 1 behind. If we work Kieran's growth backwards, we find he would have 6.4 Def as a level 3 Cavalier, and he would have had 0.0 Res at level 9 (0.2 at Lvl 10). SO, no. Kieran's bases are not better. And besides all of that, I don't care what Kieran has, Oscar's bases and growths are still sufficiently high to make RNG rape unlikely.
Which has nothing to do with anything. RNG Rape is a non-issue here because it is unlikely to really effect either. Sure, maybe Oscar has a VERY SLIGHT BUT STILL EXISTING chance of getting raped in a stat or two (most likely Mag) . . . but at the same time, he has an EQUAL OR BETTER chance of getting blessed in a stat or two well beyond Kieran. I'd prefer a unit who has a good chance of being even better with a slight risk of being slightly worse over one that is more set. Safer =/= Better (not that there is really a significant difference in safety here). That is why RNG Rape is a non-issue: It is unlikely for either, and simply being more likely for it also means you are more likely to excell.
Were you paying attention? The point was that Oscar gets the band at Level 3, meaning he has extra levels with extra (and adjustable) growths. As such, using bands, not only is it HIGHLY unlikely for Oscar to have lower than average stats when he reaches level 12 (Kieran's base level), but he will most likely have better than normal stats, giving him a very nice head start.
Yes, Babysit. Remember, Kieran is probably 2-4 levels below most of your units, and 4-6 levels below your best units. (Yes, that is about where you should be at that point in the game.) So, while Kieran will beef up to not need any kind of babysitting, he will still need to catch up to your other units first. So yes, Kieran needs to be babysat, or at least carefully managed. Kieran does not have a very good chance of dodging anything his first level, lance or axe. Not to mention the enemies will be doing heavy damage to him. Oh, and it will take him 3-4 hits to kill anything. (3 if you use a Steel Axe, though that will lower his Spd). So yes, Kieran can be used that first level, but he needs to be carefully tended to.
Yes, but Oscar can easily be anywhere from 2 to 6 levels ahead of Kieran. Not to mention he has that better Spd growth, so he can easily be ahead of his average. As a note, Str and Spd are the only stats Kieran actually has better bases in.
Comments edited in. Basically, it seems the first levels are fine for Oscar to level up.
Excluding the Vigilantes, 3-4 Sword users would make up just under a 3rd of the total enemies, which is about right and can pose a threat. Not to mention that the Knights and Fighters will be doing a lot more damage to Kieran each turn than he does back. Which is quite possible for them. Even the ones in the next level will give him trouble.
Actually, in terms of average 20/20 stats, Rolf beats Shinon. Also, there are numerous places in PoR where you will want to group you best allies to fight and protect your physically weak units, or you have little room to move, such as on a ship. So, Oscar and Boyd could be next to eachother quite often. Anyways . . . [size=14]End of borring stat debate[/size] [size=7]If you don't like stats, have a short attention span, or just prefer other kinds of debates, skip to this point.[/size]
Or Oscar is simply more mature and didn't want to start a fight.
Whippoorwills are songbirds. He fought a songbird? Now, let's see. Here is the list of Kieran's great exploits you listed.
Okay, so, Kieran is fearless and fights monsters (though he still always loses to Oscar). Your conclusion is that's he's holding back, so that he doesn't outclass everyone else in the game. But wait . . . there is a better explination. Sure, if this is all true, Kieran is one heck of a tough guy, and probably does stack up so he should have better stats than he does in the game. If it's true. Now, what is our source for these great exploits? Kieran is. These are all claims he makes in his supports - all things he says. Now what makes more sense? That he's holding back, or that he's making it up? First, let's take a look at these monsters. Do we ever encounter monsters in Tellius? Anywhere else in the game? Remember, this isn't Magvel. No one else sees giant spiders or giant scorpions. I think maybe Kieran has played FE8 so many times he's confusing himself. Also, let's take a look at what events of Kieran's past we CAN verify . . . his supports with Oscar. Now, as we clearly see in these supports, Kieran has absolutly no trouble . . . er . . . exajurating to make himself look better. He may actually believe what he says, but it seems almost everything he believes is a highly distorted version of the truth made to make himself look better, particularly, he seems to want to look better than Oscar. So then, it is a reasonable conclusion that Kieran is not so much holding back his full strength, as he is a teller of tall tales. Kieran claims to be a "Sir Lancelot the Brave" But, in actuallity he is more of a "Sir Robin the-not-quite-so-brave-as-Sir Lancelot, who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor, who had nearly stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol, and who had personally wet himself at the Battle of Badon Hill!" If we look at it, it seems Oscar is the one actually holding back. Imagine his Accuracy, Critical, and Evasion if he actually opened his eyes!
Tisk. A Brock wannabe? Don't be silly. That is impossible for several reasons: A.) Oscar is far too cool and mature to play/watch something as lame as Pokemon. He wouldn't even know who Brock was. B.) Between being a Knight, a Mercenary, and raising his brothers, where would he have time for something like Pokemon? C.) FE9 happens in a medieval world and Pokemon in a more modern one. So, in all actuallity, FE9 would have come first. More likely is that Brock is actually a wannabe-Oscar. So, why does Oscar close his eyes? -He's the one holding back -He doesn't like bright lights -He's just really laid back
So . . . you're saying that Kieran has the IQ of a preteen and runs around throwing his "pokey" balls at animals, and then he locks up endangered species in tiny confined spaces with no food, water, or even air . . . That bastard!!
Actually, if you look at the picture, he's looking the wrong way, and so is just as likely to hit a wall. Back to the animal cruelty . . . So . . . in summary: Brave Sir Bravely ran away, away. When danger reared its ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. Yes, brave Sir And gallantly he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet He beat a very brave retreat, Bravest of the brave, Sir He is packing it in, And packing it up, And sneaking away, And buggering off, And chickening out, And pissing off home, Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge. |
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| +Hollie | Sep 19 2006, 02:11 PM Post #6 |
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Resident Brit
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As a note: I made a msitake in my first post. Oscar's Res isn't 15.8, it's 13.8. I copied the wrong number by mistake.
If we were discussing a 1.5 difference, then why did you bring axes into it? o_O By simple addition, that's 2.5 more in strength/attack. At any rate, by rounding up that would be 3. Since they'll be double-attacking the same amount of the time, that's an extra 6 damage total for Kieran. Nice number. Even without rounding, that's five extra damage. Gogogogogo Kieran!
...Or you could say that you'd want rough averages in that instance. Rough averages = any one given playthrough. The averages we use = ALL playthroughs. So basically, by rounding those figures you're getting round about averages. What the hell would you want with "round about averages"? If you're going to have the average of anything, wouldn't you want it to be the exact average? This is, I believe, why we don't use rough averages.
Addressed above.
And strength, of course, which Kieran will win. 1.5 > 1, and since you're so fond of rounding, 2 > 1.
Not really, as by that logic Titania is crap. Kieran's bases > Oscar's bases. The point of saying that is that his bases are guaranteed, and are higher than Oscar's. If Oscar gets screwed, Kieran will be near enough the same or better at the time you get him.
More likely to benefit? Where the hell did that come from? O_O HP: 55%: 55 > 45. STR: 45%: 45 < 55. MAG: 20%: 20 < 80. SKL: 50%: 50 = 50. SPD: 45%: 45 < 55. LUK: 30%: 30 < 70 DEF: 35%: 35 < 65. RES: 30%: 30 < 70. As you can see from above, is all but two growths, Oscar has a better chance of being screwed than blessed. In HP he is slightly over half, so a decent chance there, and the chances are equal with skill. Oscar COULD end up gaining more than he would by averages from those levels. But he is more likely to gain LESS than he would.
Yes, Kieran's growth is 5% higher, YES, their growths are the same. The fact is, though, that Kieran is safer in these areas. Oscar could quite easily get screwed and end up gaining no defense or resistance AT ALL. And btw, I never said that Oscar's defense growths sucks, just that it is unreliable. Kieran's is more reliable.
Oscar could quite easily fall well below those expectancies.
As I stated, Oscar is more likely to be blessed than screwed in all but two of his growths.
Uh, Kieran has the better bases, and Oscar is more likely to get screwed than blessed in those extra levels.
Well, yeah. Titania has better bases than Oscar, too. "Oh, but Titania is promoted!" Doesn't matter. The bases are still better.
Oscar's defense and resistance are behind Kieran's. Great. THAT WAS MY POINT! Kieran has more total bases than Oscar. End of. Argue it all you want, but that fact WILL NOT change.
But not impossible.
RNG Rape is an issue here because it is really quite likely to affect Oscar. Sure, maybe Oscar has a fairly probable chance of getting blessed in a stat or two (most likely HP) . . . but at the same time, he has an EQUAL OR BETTER chance of getting screwed in a majority of stats to a level well below or equal to Kieran.
Well, I guess there's no reason to use Titania at all, then. Oh, and we should all use Soren because it's possible for him to gain strength at virtually every level! Whoo!
Wait, WHAT?! How does being MORE LIKELY to get RNG screwed make you have a higher chance of being blessed, being in mind that the reason you're RNG screwable in the first place is because of unreliable growths? How DOES that work?
Paladin Band gives: +5% HP and +5% Spd. Since I'm saying that Oscar is most RNG screwable in Def/Res/Mag, how does that change my point? Granted, it makes him more likely to rise in those stats, but that in two of his least screwable growths made less screwable. What did it do for his others? Sod all. So, that should really be, "Not only is it HIGHLY unlikely for Oscar to for Oscar to have lower than average stats in the two +5% the band gives. . ."
6 levels ahead? What are you giving him, steroids?
Your definition of babysat must be different than mine, then. For me, Babysat is when a unit is significantly weaker than the enemies of the level, and so must be protected. Kieran is not weaker than the enemis of the level. Therefore, he does not need to be babysat. To catch up with your other units? Yes. But that is a totally different thing. If by carefully managed you mean "healed slightly more often than your other units", then I agree. Oh well, more experience for Mist/Rhys. 
Er, he has just a good a chance of dodging that Oscar has, since at that point their speed, HP and defense will be virtually the same AND he won't get WTD against Axe users, and will gain WTA against lance users.
3-4 hits? Oscar won't be much different! You seem to be forgetting that they have virtually the same speed and strength at this point. . .
No more carefully than Oscar will. Oscar has virtually the same avoid, Def and HP as a Level 15 unit - a few extra stat points =/= domination over Kieran in survivability.
About speed, going back to what I wrote earlier. . . "SPD: 45%: 45 < 55." Anyway, 6 levels higher than Kieran - that's level 18. What did you give Oscar? Drugs?
Huh? You worked this out. . . how? HP: O: 26 K: 30. Oops, looks like Kieran wins here! STR: O: 6 K: 11. Oh wait, is that ANOTHER win for Kieran? MAG: O: 1 K: 1. Look Mummy! A draw! SKL: O: 6 K: 10. Need I say it? SPD: O: 7 K: 12. /hmm LUK: O: 5 K: 8. Ohshi- DEF: O: 8 K: 10. I'm starting to notice a pattern here. . . RES: O: 0 K: 1. . . .Ooh look! Kieran wins EVERYTHING, except magic, which is a draw. Now, not to seem rude, but either you need to change your definition of "bases" or you really ought to book an appointment with your optician.
Italics. Fine? Are you insane? The huge amount of knights, axe users and enemies with steel weapons means that Oscar will need careful handling on all of those levels. And he certainly will not be double attacking. Here's why: Oscar's base Str: 6 Growth: 45% Iron Lance weight: 8 Javelin weight: 11 Steel lance weight: 13 With a 45% growth, Oscar's Str would have to grow twice JUST for him to be able to wield his most basic weapon without losing any of his precious Spd. Javelin, well, by the time you get Kieran he SHOULD be able to wield one without losing his speed, but then again, it depends what the RNG throws at you. You can forget using a Steel Lance AT ALL until just before he promotes, or even after if you promote depending on what sort of luck you get.
I could've sworn I counted more than twelve enemies in that level (minus Vigilantes). O_O And I also could've sworn that this chapter was pretty much Fighter free. . . hmm. . . As I've said earlier, he does have a fairly decent chance of dodging the knights (no matter how much you deny it, it IS true. I've taken that 50% mark directly from the game). Even if he does get hit, he certainly won't DIE.
Quite possible; it all depend on the RNs thrown out. Speaking of RNs, it's possible that he's leveled up and gained speed already. True, less chance than him not gaining in speed, but the chance is still there. The ones in the next level shouldn't give him trouble unless you're really dumb.
"Quite often"? let's see: You are on a ship for two chapters. There are about, oh, three defending chapters. Chapter 17 Stg. 4 you might need to protect units. on. otherwise, I can't think of any other circumstances where Oscar and Rolf/Boyd *might* end up next to end other. Now, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the above is a smaller amount than the total chapters. So, more often than not, Oscar will NOT recieve the 10% crit bonus from Boyd/Rolf.
*boring 
Mature people are boring. Therefore, Oscar = boring. Boring fails.
I don't know, this guy looks pretty evil to me. http://knechts.net/blogimages/whippoorwill585w.jpg
Even I admit that Kieran isn't quite intelligent enough to make all of THAT up.
And I think maybe you're over-exaggerating. This isn't the 21st century we're talking about. Hell, this isn't even anywhere on Earth we're talking about. When you can get something from Nintendo that says, "We hereby declare that there are no monsters in Tellius," I think we should think for a moment about Kieran's intelligence/imagination. And even if Kieran does have the imagination/intelligence to make up this, I highly doubt it. Why? because he says he fought a Giant Whippoorwill. Think about it. A Giant Songbird. Why would anyone claim to have fought a Giant Songbird, I ask? It's unlikely that Kieran just heard the word in passing. I'd never heard of a Whippoorwill before. It's not a word that pops up often in conversations. Therefore, I mus conclude that Kieran knew what a Whippoorwill was. Why woudl he say a Giant Whippoorwill? Those who knew what it was would start wondering why he was boasting about fighting a Giant Songbird. Frankly, the only way I can see that he fought a Giant Whippoorwill and told everyone was if it was actually dangerous. If he was going to make it all up, he would've chosen something more dangerous, surely.
Duh, Oscar's his rival! Of course he does. But he doesn't say any of these things about deadly monsters and suchlike to Oscar! Why? Surely, if he was his rival, Kieran would boast about all these monsters he has killed. But he doesn't! Therefore, I reach this conclusion: Kieran is a nice guy, and wants to meet Oscar in an ordinary man's terms, i.e., not by how many Giant Scorpions you've killed recently.
I haven't seen anything so far that says Kieran ISN'T telling the truth.
Aha! But he DOESN'T open his eyes! Hang on a second! Surely, as a mercenary, if opening his eyes granted him THAT much extra awesomeness, then why doesn't he do it? He'd be owning enemies left right and centre! Though Kieran's strength would still be better.  Conclusion: Either he's a mercenary who wants to die (unlikely), or opening his eyes wouldn't grant him any extra awesomeness (more likely).
Pokemon =/= lame. And on another note, Oscar =/= cool. Oscar is boring, as I've already covered.
He could play whislt he eats. 
Oh wait, then I guess Kieran couldn't have gotten hold of FE8 either. Or at least, he only plays it to gives him some practise in tactics. He finds enemies as easy to defeat as the ones in FE8 after all.
-Mercenarys can't afford to hold back  -That's just lame. The brihgtest light in FE is the sun. -Laid back? He can't be laid back and mature at the same time! Make up your mind!
That was only worst case senario. It's far more likely that he aspires to be someone like Beowulf, who is also manly and defeats evil monsters. Beowulf > Brock, therefore Kieran > Oscar.
He's probably watching out for the other wall
This is coming from an american, one of the people who zap others in electric chairs?
Nice little rhyme. Pity it couldn't be more accurate.  That finishes this post, and nearly this debate. Jedi, do your worst.
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Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch. Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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| Michael | Sep 20 2006, 09:30 PM Post #7 |
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JediSSJ
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Alright. Now, for the sake of keeping this debate from being ungodly in length and too boring for anyone to read, I will not be following a strict point-by-point system, as I have previously. Instead, I will go by topic. It'll be long enough anyway. But first, one thing: No problem. I used the correct stats in my counter anyway. [size=7]Base Stats[/size]
By this logic Titania is crap? Well, Titania does have crap stats for a Level 1 Paladin. She trails Oscar's Lvl 1 Paladin stats in every category except Lck (which she wins by 0.9) by a significant margin. So, her base stats are pretty crappy, yes. However, she has very high growths to help make up for it. Still, statistically she comes out well behind Oscar and Kieran. Her main advantage is that she comes early at a high level.
Now, for base stats in general; you keep saying that Kieran has better bases, and I say Oscar does. I don't think we're on the same wavelength here. Granted, if you compare Kieran's joining stats with Oscar's straight up, he'll crush them. However, that is pure foolishness. Of course Kieran's joining stats are higher! He joins at level 12, while Oscar joins at Level 3. It's simply ridiculous to compare the two. If you want to compare base stats, you need to do so by level. How good are Oscar's stats for a lvl 3 unit? How good are Kieran's for a level 12 one? AS I was pointing out, Kieran's Spd and Str are the only stats of his that are good for a lvl 12 Knight. If you compare Kieran's joining stats with the other Knights' level 12 averages, you'll see he lags a bit behind, except in Str and Spd, which, as I said, he has good bases in. Now, comparing Oscar's level 3 stats to the other Knights is a bit more tricky. The only other Knight to ever be at level 3 is Astrid, who has comparable lvl 3 stats. You could work Kieran and Makalov's stats backwards by growths, and you'll find they both lack significantly in comparison. What I'm saying is that you can't simply compare Oscar and Kieran's joining stats and say which had better bases. Oscar has better base stats, but Kieran joins at a higher level. Oscar has statistical superiority, but Kieran has 9 levels that are RNG-proof. It's a trade off. [size=7]Growths and RNG[/size] Now we have been batting about and debating these things furiously, but let's take stock. What differences are we pointing out. -Oscar has slightly better stats in general and on average. -They have even growths but Kieran slightly favors the arguably more important stats. So basically, Oscar has slightly better stats and Kieran is slightly more resistant to RNG rape. Keep in mind these differences are very slight. The end 20/20 stats only have differences of 1 or 2 stat points, and no growth has a difference of more then 5%.
Um, that's not correct. What you are calling "Rough averages" also use the stats from all playthroughs, not just one. It is just more concerned with what stats a unit is actually likely to have, as opposed to a straight average. That's why I say Kieran will generally only have a strength lead of one, Oscar averages 24 and Kieran 25, despite the fact that the actual difference in averages in 1.5. Also, as a note, I hate 0.5s. While math rules say to round up, it's less accurate. Oh, and: You do realize you can trade the bands around, right? I mean, you might stick the Paladin Band on Oscar until he gets a bit of a lead in Spd, but you would want to trade it out for whatever you need to counter RNG Rape or to help him bump up a stat so that it will cap (like Spd, Skl, and Str which are all close). Strategic use of the Bands is very nice. Anyways, the idea was that they can be used to counter possible RNG rape and make sure that Oscars lvl 12 stats will be at least as high as the averages. And one more thing:
I'm not sure where you got the idea, but you seem to be using 50% as some sort of magi number deciding which growths are safe. That's not really correct. Sure, a 50% is nice. But it doesn't mean it's more safe, it just means it's higher. Sure, Oscar has a 35% growth in Def, but simply because this is less than 50% doesn't mean he is more likely to be screwed. Remember, his averages only account for a 35% chance of this stat increasing. A stat is only really risky when it is low enough that reaching the average is difficult. I would agree that any stat below 25% is risky. 30% growths may be slightly risky, but once you get to 35% the growths are getting pretty stable, and anything above that is quite secure.
Oscar cannot "quite easily" get screwed in anything, except maybe Mag. The only other growths of his where he would have a notable chance of getting screwed would be Res and Lck - both of which Kieran is just as weak in, if not more. If Oscar can "quite easily" be screwed in anything, so can Kieran. His growths are slightly higher in 3 areas, but not significantly. I'm going to pretty much skip the rest of your points on this subject, as they are all just you saying how easily Oscar can get RNG Raped, and how much more secure Kieran is, despite their near-identical growths and Oscar's better bases. [size=7]Other Stat Issues[/size]
You're the one who said you usually have Boyd at level 17 or so. simply put, is Oscar is one of your most used units, he can be up to level 18 by this point. Even if he's not one of your most used, he'll still probably be at least level 14 or so (unless you completely neglect him). As a side note - wow, other than Ike and Boyd, your units seem fairly low level for that point in the game. I suggest taking more care with who you let get EXP. As for the issue of Kieran's joining levels . . . Kieran is several levels behind your units when he joins, and is noticeable weak compared to the enemies in the level. He may have a bit better accuracy against them, but they do noticeable more damage. He does need to be babysat/carefully managed in that you need to be careful to make sure that no more than 2 enemies or so attack him per turn, or he can easily be killed, and he will likely need a healer to stick to his tail. The crows in the next level will also give him trouble, as he will have lower accuracy against them and many have a good chance to double-attack. Granted, Oscar is not really stronger at level 12, but as I said earlier, Oscar should be quite a few levels ahead, and so holding his own better (superior Def, Res, and HP even at just level 12).
And I have edited in bold-italics. As you see, Oscar is quite well suited for the first few levels. In fact, he is a must-have for them, unless you want to waste all your early EXP on Titania and Gatrie - a bad idea, even if you plan on leveling those two up.
No, it's so boring it deserves two Rs.
Tsk. Welcome to the real world. First off, mature people are not boring. They are simply more responsible, dependable, and capable of taking care of themselves. Immature people may find them boring, simply because mature people are not sill stuck on third-grade humor. Besides, think about it this way: You are fighting a war to defend you liege and retake your homeland from a cruel and powerful enemy. You are out-manned, out-armed, and out-funded. Your only hope for survival, much less victory, rests on superior tactics, teamwork, and cleverness. Now, who do you want watching your back? A loyal friend who is mature enough to raise his brothers, and remains calm in all circumstances; Or a hotheaded braggart who is stupid enough to wound himself practicing alone? Dee dee dee.
Err, no, not really. He just looks a little chubby. And pretty harmless. Perhaps there is no definite proof that there are not monsters in Tellius, but we have to look at the available information. No one else makes any reference to monsters, claiming to fight them or otherwise. With all the talk of Laguz and "sub-humans" you think the racist people would liken them unto other monsters, if, in fact, other monsters exist. Sacred Stones is (I believe) thou only place you will find these monsters. I'm not saying Kieran is totally making it up. As we can easily see, he likes to exaggerate to make himself look better. Most likely his slaying of a giant spider sprang from some time he killed a normal old spider than startled some noble. When he retold the story, it became how he saved the noble from a deadly spider that was about to bite him/her. Then the spider became tarantula-sized and was dripping venom. Each time the story was told, the spider grew. Soon the noble became a noble and his/her spouse. Then it was the entire family. Soon enough it was a whole village he had saved from a giant, man-eating spider. The point is that, as we have no other reference to monsters, and Kieran's honesty is already in question from his supports with Oscar, there is significant doubt to go with his stories. Then you haven't been listening.
The same goes for Kieran. Why would he hold back when he is so obsessed with being the greatest knight? The truth is, Kieran is probably not holding back, and Oscar has his eyes closed because that is the anime artist's way of showing he is calm, laid-back, and all-around pleasant to be around.
First off, Oscar and Kieran are both in their early twenties or so. If either of them would consider Pokemon anything but lame, I would be worried. I don't know of anyone my age who would argue against Pokemon being lame, and Oscar may even be a couple years older than me. Maybe Rolf would be the right age to think it's cool. Besides which, even if you contend that Pokemon is not lame, Fire Emblem is much cooler, so it would only make sense that the Pokemon characters would be imitating the FE ones, not the other way around. Also, Oscar is quite cool. He's a lot like Kent; straight-laced, hard working, dependable, etc. Only real difference is that Oscar is calm and laid-back, as opposed to uptight and stiff. Kieran is kind of like Sain . . . except that Sain is funny/entertaining because he is flirtatious and witty; while Kieran is amusing because he is, err . . . mentally deficient. Laid-back and mature do not conflict . . . hotheaded and mature do.
Beowulf? Are you joking? If Kieran aspires to be like Beowulf, he does a poor job of it. I don't even recall him claiming to have torn the arm off of anything. Besides, Kieran doesn't have the intelligence or maturity to be like Beowulf, who was the ruler of his people. Besides, Kieran is trying too hard to be manly. He exaggerates to make himself look better and swings his axe around recklessly for the sake of seeming brave. Beowulf doesn't need to try to be manly, he just is. He'd look at Kieran and say, "What an idiot." As I said, Kieran is more like Sir Robin, who wants to look brave, but can't back it up. And, as I said, Oscar is certainly not trying to be like Brock. Why would he want to be like an inferior character from an inferior game? All that said, here are our two choices: -A mentally defunct knight who molests poor animals for bragging rights, has questionable credibility, is a hero-wannabe, and is dim-witted enough to regularly injure himself practicing with his own favorite weapon. -A mature and dependable knight who can take care of others as well as himself, remains calm at all times, and has never lost to his rival. So there. [SIZE=7]In conclusion[/size] Statistic Superiority: Tie - It's pretty even; Oscar has slightly better 20/20 averages and bases stats, while Kieran has slightly safer stats. The differences are very slight, those I still think Oscar is slightly favored here and he does have the most total stats out of all Paladins. Joining Time: Oscar, obviously - Also, he joins at the same level or higher than most of your units, while Kieran joins several levels behind. Usefulness: Oscar - He is essential those first 10 levels before you get Kieran, having the highest Def behind Gatrie and Titania, (and he even catches/beats Titania by level 11 or 12). He can hold his own against all enemies, even axe-users and knights, and is, frankly, a must-have. Once Kieran joins Oscar is still a bit more useful, being a higher level (perhaps much higher), and having a head start on supports and weapons uses. Supports: Oscar - While the Kieran/Oscar ones are probably your best bet, Oscar has the better options and has his innate Critical bonus with Boyd and Rolf. Kieran's supports may be a bit more amusing, but not enough to make up for it - especially considering that he needs Oscar for his only useful support. Personality: Oscar - Oscar is polite, calm, mature, and dependable; while Kieran is a hotheaded braggart who is reckless and impulsive. He may be a bit more amusing, but he needs to be around someone like Oscar to be so. Besides, this is war. Who would you rather have watch your back? To be honest, your best bet is to train up both Oscar and Kieran as two of your main units, support them together, give them both Sol, and send them off together to deal death. However, between the two, Oscar is the superior Knight/Paladin. Well, I guess that's it. |
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Super Smash Bros Brawl Friend Code: 0989 1408 5291
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 20 2006, 09:42 PM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Send votes to me, judges.
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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3:20 AM Nov 29
