| Welcome to Fire Emblem Fusion. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Kamaitachi vs Cooltrainer Nick | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Sep 18 2006, 01:15 PM (248 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Sep 18 2006, 01:15 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
|
3 posts each. Kam's starting. GL. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
| |
 |
|
| Kamaitachi | Sep 20 2006, 02:01 AM Post #2 |
Classy
|
Gatrie smells. |
   
| |
|
|
|
| Nick | Sep 20 2006, 11:26 AM Post #3 |
Brit
|
<__< I expect more of you on your next post. Really, I'm disappointed that that is all you could come up with for now, even though I wasn't expecting it to be long. And as for the statement itself (genuinely curious here) does it ACTUALLY STATE anywhere that Gatrie smells? If not, you just wasted a post. I'm not going to use your style against you, although I think I could do a better job than most, I still couldn't play it up so well. So, Statesticals. Gatrie HP: 57.5 Strength: 28.7 Magic: 3.5 Skill: 24.2 Speed: 14.5 Luck: 12.5 Defence: 29.8 Resistance: 12 Janaff HP: 54.6 Strength: 19.6 Magic: 6.2 Skill: 23.4 Speed: 24.8 Luck: 20.8 Defence: 14.6 Resistance: 13 And comparisons: HP: Gatrie (2.9) Strength: Gatrie (9.1) Magic: Janaff (2.7) Skill: Gatrie (0.8) Speed: Janaff (10.3) Luck: Janaff (8.3) Defence: Gatrie (15.2) Resistance: Janaff (1) From the above results, I deduce that Gatrie wins by 5.7. Quite a considerable amount. Consider now that Janaff wins on magic, speed, luck and resistance. Magic is a useless stat for the pair of them. One useless win. Speed is not what Gatrie is made for, whereas it IS what Janaff is made for, which pretty much accounts for the large gap between the two. Luck, Janaff wins by a lot here, it's true, and will lead (I'm getting bored of this stat, Gatrie just keeps losing) to Gatrie not dodging or hitting so well, and Gatrie being criticaled much more often. Resistance, it's a point. A single, solitary, individual point. Not much really. Consider NOW that Gatrie wins on HP, strength, skill and defence. An even amount of stats to what Janaff wins by. HP, the difference is admittedly small. Only nearly 3 points. It's not much, but it IS a difference. Skill, the difference is small again, conceded. It doesn't really count. Now. Strength. That's a nice, juicy 9.1 difference you've got there, and Gatrie's gonna be doing CONSIDERABLY more damage than Janaff. Defence, that's 15.2 difference. You do realise that that difference is over HALF OF THE MAXIMUM STAT CAP for normal units. That's an insane, ridiculous amount! It's completely out of order! I mean, Janaff isn't magical. He's not built for tanking, either, so having considerably less defence than Gatrie is predictable. However, having under HALF his defence is just silly. He's not going to survive a few hits. He can dodge, but when they come they hurt lots. As for Gatrie, he gets hit a lot, but just doesn't feel it. I don't want to make my post completely mundane, though, the debate would be very awkward if one person was arguing about who smells and the other was talking about defence stats (infinitely more valuable though the second one is). So. Appearances. Gatrie's not much of a looker, it's true. But when you compare him with Brom... Brom's just a big fat lump of shit. Gatrie, although his hair is lamentable (treestump) and he is outclassed in looks by Tauroneo, is higher up the hierarchy of looks for your class than Janaff is. Janaff has the likes of Tibarn and Ulki to compete with. While Tibarn's nothing special, he still beats Janaff (who is leaning forwards in a ridiculous manner, looking much more like a great tit than the hawk that he allegedly is). He looks like he's trying to take off in human form, for goodness' sake, and that's NEVER going to work. Then you get to Ulki, and Janaff just ends up on the floor crying.  Pure awesomeness. Everything about him is sharp and hawklike. He has a fucking goatee. He WINS in this. He also wears clothes that go nicely with his hair (although Janaff's are pretty smexy with his hair, it has to be said...) But the point is, why would you EVER want to take Janaff when you have the likes of Ulki? He has 2.2 more stat points in total, but her only significant wins are in speed and luck, one of which Ulki is perfectly passable in, and the other, there are worse characters. Ulki also has clear wins in defence and strength, which are important for them. Hell, this isn't the first time I'm wishing I'd taken a different character. Next time, it's Ulki or Calill for sure. I await your response with little enthusiasm, judging by your last post. |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
|
|
|
| Kamaitachi | Sep 21 2006, 03:04 PM Post #4 |
|
Classy
|
Aw Nick, I love you too. In one of Gatrie's conversations with Shinon in the early game, he mentions being all sweaty from lugging around heavy armor wherever they run. Since this is an era where things like deoderant and showers are unheard of, I can only assume that Gatrie is smelly. That's not to any other character is any less smelly, it's just I chose to state that Gatrie smells. I didn't intend for you to use my style. In fact, my first post was not a waste because it accomplished what I'd intended it to. Thank you. Also, though we shouldn't be correcting each other's grammar and spelling...the asinine child in me (and the asinine adult in me) laughed raucously at the thought of "Statesticals" Your deduction that Gatrie wins by 5.7? That's indeed a considerable amount. Luckily for you Janaff isn't untransformed all the time. So, Gatrie stomps untransformed Janaff by 5.7 points. Let's factor in Janaff's transformation. Gatrie will still win in HP. Uh oh, what's this? Gatrie's considerable strength advantage is suddenly effectively cut by 2/3. Suddenly he only has a 3.1 strength advantage. Not nearly as monstrous as you make it out to seem. Let's couple this with Janaff's speed advantage. 10.3 untransformed, and now 13.3 transformed. Gatrie's 28.7 is still considerable, but Janaff with 25.6 AND a double attack? Looks like on the overall Janaff is going to be doing more damage than your smelly tank. You say skill doesn't count? Gatrie wins by .8, but when Janaff gets his transformation boost of +5, Gatrie is suddenly losing by 4.2. Janaff's accuracy is suddenly better than Gatrie's. Oh wait? What's this? Insight? Accuracy boost? Looks like Janaff missing an enemy is a rarity at best! Not to mention he has no weapon triangle to worry about lowering his accuracy, so if you want a sure solid hit, go with Janaff. If you want a more powerful hit with a higher chance of missing? Don't even bother with Gatrie then, just run around with Kieran and gamble. hmmm, 15.2 difference in defense. That is a problem I'm sad to say. However Janaff receives a defense boost of 9 points in transformation. hmmm...suddenly your gigantic defense advantage has been cut in half. Considering Janaff's much higher luck, we're gonna see Janaff not only dodging more often, but also taking a the few hits that even manage to land on him. And don't say that Gatrie doesn't feel hits. Let's look at magic, which we do see a fair amount of. Not as much as the melee units, but still a considerable amount. Janaff's resistance of 13 is pretty good, considering the few wind magicians running around, but it bumps up to 17 in his transformed state and suddenly the wind magic with its low power just isn't so bad. So. Let's look at the new setup: HP: Gatrie (2.9) Strength: Gatrie (3.1) Magic: Janaff (2.7) Skill: Janaff (4.2) Speed: Janaff (13.3) Luck: Janaff (8.3) Defense: Gatrie (6.2) Resistance: Janaff (4) What's this? Janaff wins by 20.3? Wow. If 5.7 was significant, nearly quadruple that when Janaff is transformed. Even if we were to throw on a demi band, Janaff would still be above Gatrie. Laguz stones can be used to keep Janaff in fine battling condition, so looks like statistically, Janaff is much superior. So lookswise, you're trying to take the looks department off of Gatrie by only comparing people within their classes. Sure, Tibarn is a sexy powerful manly beast. Ulki is a weird looking hawkface. Janaff is a cutie in every possible way. Sure Brom is a fat retarded lump, and Tauroneo is a rather regal looking gentleman, but when you compare the mirror-shattering pile of pus you call Gatrie to Janaff...well...let's just say if I had to be gay, I'd be gay for Janaff and not smelly ol' gatrie. Besides, Gatrie's gotta carry around his big ol spear everywhere. Looks like he's trying to compensate for something, yeah? Janaff fights with beak and claw. No need to draw attention from the fact that despite being a bird, he's probably more well endowed than Gatrie can ever hope to be. As for the taking off in human form, yeah, they can do that. The spend a lot of time flying around in human form. It is rather painfully evident that you haven't played this game. As for the hawk Laguz, strength and defense are not as important. That's for the beast laguz. Hawk Laguz focus more on speed, accuracy and dodging, which Janaff has Ulki beat in each category. Janaff is more fitted for his role as a bird, for swift attacks and flying circles around his enemy before retreating to power up again. So to sum up my post: -Janaff is great. Gatrie, not so much. (And he still smells) |
| |
|
|
|
| Nick | Sep 22 2006, 07:02 AM Post #5 |
|
Brit
|
Right, here goes again.
 Well in that case, it's like stating "Gatrie has a brain." It's a matter-of-fact thing that applies to everyone.  Nice start.I didn't think you did. But Mitsukushu tried, and he failed badly. So I wasn't going to try and do it as well. If you think I didn't intend to type "statesticals" then you are very silly indeed. As to the main stats part, I concede that Janaff's stats increase dramatically when he transforms. It's still a 6.2 difference. A significant amount, by any means. And when Janaff ISN'T transformed, it's 15.2. Ulki is an ubersexy, hawklike beast. That's true, and it's why I'm grateful for corrections like that. Thanks. How about, the tank who flattens enemies with a single blow and takes no damage in return? And on the subject of pus, can you see a spot anywhere on his face? No. There you go, another useless statement. You forgot the apostrophe. But still, they ARE important. What good is double attacking if you're doing only a few points of damage? You've really got to be careful of archers, too. And so far as I know, (correct me if I'm wrong) flying circles round enemies is not a valid fighting move in FE. Compensate for WHAT, exactly? And no, he doesn't. He can use swords once he's promoted; he can then put down his spear. That's a poor summary to what I otherwise thought was a decent post. Don't do it again, it's so disappointing to see you do things like that. I'll keep this post short, actually. Have fun with the next post. |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
|
|
|
| Kamaitachi | Sep 23 2006, 01:14 AM Post #6 |
|
Classy
|
Agreed.
Sirrah, know you the art of war? I wasn't trying to get you to try my style against me. Clearly there was an alterior motive for that move, and you fell for it head and shoulders. Your first mistake in this debate was focusing your eloquence into insulting me.
Keeping Janaff in transformation is easy. Laguz Stones and Demi Band. When he isn't transformed, why would you send him up to your front lines anyways? And even if his meter runs out on an enemies turn, he still doesn't revert to human form until your next turn, wherein you can move him safely away. And as for the defense on the whole, Gatrie will be taking hits, and he can be worn down by an onslaught of attacks, especially when sages with more powerful magic start to appear, and even weapons like stilletos, armorslayers, heavy lances and hammers will start to do massive damage to Mr. "I can't dodge to save my life" Gatrie, whereas even laguzslaying weapons and bows will have a hard time hitting Mr. "Look at me outshine Gatrie in every way shape and form except strength and defense" Janaff.
Sir, I sincerely question your tastes in men. Even if you WERE gay, you'd take Mr. "Pointybeak" Ulki over Mr. "Cutieface and still outshining Gatrie in every way shape and form except strength and defense" Janaff? More power to you and your weird tastes, I suppose. Good luck only getting laid by weird looking people.
What's to have stopped you from doing a little research then? You've a lot of nerve treating me like I'm not playing a debate professionally when you didn't even properly prepare.
Pointing fingers at me, sir? You called Brom "a fat lump of shit" Do you see any shit on his face? If you're going to point out my useless statements, at least don't be a hypocrite about it.
Ah, my apologies! I swear, I'd forget my ass if it weren't so perfectly attached to my sternum.
Yes, they are important. Ulki beats Janaff by 3.2 points in strength. However, Janaff beats Ulki by a full 5 points in speed. Going by your earlier logic, a 5 point victory is a big victory. In simple mathematics: Let's look at them in their first battle. Ulki is Level 7, and Janaff is Level 8. To make this even, let's assume Ulki got a perfect level up. They're both attacking the same unit. This gives Ulki: HP: 42 Str: 16 Mag: 5 Skl: 15 Spd: 12 Def: 15 Res: 10 Luck: 10 and Janaff: HP: 39 Str: 13 Mag: 5 Skl: 15 Speed: 17 Def: 11 Res: 10 Luck: 16 Let's take their weapon, the beak, which as a Might rating of 7, and a hit percentage of 90% Let's assume the enemy they're attacking is an archer with 15 defense and 13 speed and let's assume all attacks hit. (Remember, archers can't counterattack from close range). Ulki wil l do 8 points of damage in a single hit. Janaff will be super sexy and do 5 points of damage, then double back for an additional 5 totalling 10 damage. Against Gatrie, as I stated before, Gatrie is affected by weapon triangles and will not necessarily always guarantee you a hit. Unless your enemy has the agility of Jolteon on steroids, then Janaff will basically never miss thanks both to his high accuracy and insight. As for the archer aspect, it's the same with all flying units. Archers are a bane to them. Janaff needs archers. Why? Without archers, Janaff would simply be too good for this game. And really, we've been over this in every debate involving a flying unit ever: A good tactician will never send a flying unit into an area where archers can get to him or her. It's just plain stupid. I was debating with the idea that we're both fairly intelligent people who don' t do things like send flyers into archers. Do you enjoy putting ice cream in hot ovens? Do you like dropping Penguins into the Sahara? Do you like putting Sentenal in a locked room filled with rabid democrats? Or perhaps even putting Lucas in a room filled with Sora clones? These are just not good ideas. Flyers into archer range is one of said not good ideas. And as for your point on flying circles? It's not a valid move, no, but in Janaff's attack animation, he dives into them and circles back, then more often than not dives in again. That's flying circles. Play the game.
I was implying that he has to compensate for his tiny, tiny penis. I was trying to avoid being blunt. Guess it can't be helped. And as for swords, why? You've got Ike. You've got the likes of the paladins, the falcoknights and the swordmasters. I liked it better when generals got axes (although I flipped a happy shit when I saw that Wyverns got axes instead). And even if Gatrie does stick with lances, you've again got the paladins, Nephenee, the wyverns and falcoknights. Who else has beaks? Ulki, Tibarn and Naesala, two of which you might not even get to use.
It wasn't a poor summary at all. It was concise, and above all, honest. You clearly can't deny the truth of the statement, so you attack the statement itself. Lame. I'd like to bring up a new point: Supports. Now, Gatrie (light) supports with: Ilyana (light), Shinon (thunder), Marcia (fire), and Astrid (wind) Janaff (Thunder) gets: Oscar (earth) , Lucia (earth) and Shinon (thunder) Now, it is arguable that all these supports suck. Ilyana is outclassed by the other sages, like Tormod and Callil, Shinon is outclassed by Rolf and, Marcia is outclassed by Tanith. Astrid is one of way too many paladins, of which your better choices would be Titania, Oscar and Kieran (All of whom don't require Astrid's babysitting) Oscar is actually a decent support, but why would Oscar support with Janaff when he could support with Ike? Easy. Support lines! Janaff -B- Oscar -A- Ike -B- Reyson -A- Tormod Uh oh. With this lot around, Janaff gets to team up with a strong paladin, the team's lord, Reyson (who is more amazing than elephants doing cartwheels on tightropes in tutus), and Tormod. This just seems pretty kickass to me. However, Oscar does have better supports, and Janaff could easily be replaced with Tanith. Lucia joins the ranks of Karla in the loser's circle of the swordmaster...nay...the FE world. So...why do I even bring up supports? Well, since you have a hard time keeping up with the strategems I'm employing, I'm showing you that supports would not be a great arguement to bring up here, because they both fare poorly in this world (Janaff faring slightly better thanks to Oscar). Janaff's devotion to his liege is admirable as well. When Tibarn makes a decision, Janaff will always go along with it. He's reliable and a good soldier. Gatrie? Gatrie and Shinon get upset that Ike gets made commander and ditch everyone. So if things aren't going in the favour that Gatrie wants, he leaves. That doesn't seem very reliable. Things aren't going the way Janaff wants them to? Don't matter, he'll stick by you. He's just awesome like that. Also, did I mention that Janaff flies? Not only does he have a bigger movement range, he's not held down by things like...I dunno...rivers, fences, houses, trees, swamps...anything. If Gatrie tried to fly over a river he'd end up drowning. You might argue that terrain bonuses are nice, and they are. But the fact that Gatrie might need to rely on things like that to decrease the chance of him getting hit is silly. Janaff is so great, he doesn't need terrain bonuses to enhance his performance. Gatrie needs the fortune of a tree to be his viagra when it comes to evasion. He won't need it to boost his already massive defense, but again, Janaff don't need to boost his defense because he can take a hit just fine. Remember the part where Gatrie gets slowed down by stuff like forests? Yeah. Janaff will basically have ripped apart your enemy front lines before Gatrie even gets there. Poor slow Gatrie. It's been fun Nick. You were a real bastard to me, and I hope I was just as much of a jerk to you. I await your final post (*shakes fist* it'd better be good  )
|
| |
|
|
|
| Nick | Sep 23 2006, 10:44 AM Post #7 |
|
Brit
|
Oh Kamai, you were such a jerk to me, I thoroughly enjoyed being ridiculed and slandered by you. We should debate more.For definite this time. As for your whole bows thing, do ballistae exist in this game? Keeping Janaff off the front lines is one thing, keeping him out of the way of long-range weapons that spell owch for him is another entirely. Funny you should ask that; if I were gay, I'm sure I WOULD choose Ulki, as I would definitely at first assume that Janaff was a girl. Oh dear, Kamai, it's quite irrelevant, isn't it? I'll post you some pictures soon enough, if you're so keen to know. *sigh* I've been through this with the others as well. How rare are these weapons in comparison with the bows that will be taking Janaff down? VERY RARE. Those sages? STILL RARE. And when they do turn up, seeing as they're so rare, it's not a waste at all to let someone with good movement go and take them out. Then Gatrie can get back to his job of being indestructible. I did a lot of research, hence why I'm still here after 2 debates. Apparently I gave Lucas a much harder time than he expected. I won my first debate. That was thanks to RESEARCH. True, true. Apologies for that, I should have said "the difference is Brom deserves being called that, Gatrie doesn't." I love your character making. How many enemy archers have 15 defence, exactly? A poor example. Gatrie has impressive skill. He wields swords and lances, both accurate weapons. He has the strength to deal out big, juicy hits with both of these. He will be hitting a lot, and hurting a great deal. Affected by weapon triangles? He dominates the weapon triangle, he is capable of beating any weapon. And I have a Jolteon on steroids. As it is, he's not too good for this game. That's like saying "Without hammers, armorslayers etc and powerful sages (all of which combined are still much rarer than archers) then Gatrie would be indestructible." It's a simple fact, but it's there, and so you have to deal with it. You attacked Gatrie for being weak to these things. I could use the defence that you used against your attack. Despite the fact that these are all very funny, they vary dramatically in why you would do them. The ice cream? No, but people do it. Penguins? No, they're way too cool. Sentenal? Hell yes. Lucas? If I wasn't watching, then why not? I've been told that before. Funnily, last time it was as a part of "If Nick played the game, he would be a serious threat to me and Sentenal." This time, it's because I didn't know what an attack animation looked like. Does it state anywhere that he has a tiny penis? I doubt it, this being a game that people like Bosco are intended to play on. So stick to fact. I was pretty pleased at that, as well. Ah, so we're on to roles now. So who of this lot can equal Gatrie's role as a tank? Perhaps Geoffrey or Makalov. They could still be used more effectively to run ahead and take enemies down. But the likes of the others... The other paladins- Kieran and Oscar first. They have respectable defences, and are good all-round. But they will be suffering against high strength hits. Titania, you don't want to use as a tank. She's just too much better at coddling units for her to reach full usefulness taking all the hits and the experience for herself. Astrid's defence just isn't good enough, and besides, she doesn't start out with close combat weapons. Nephenee. She has good defence, and very nice avoid. However, she is more at risk to being taken down by high-strength weapons, such as axes (which she is also weak to) than Gatrie is. She's just not that sturdy. And she doesn't have his godly HP. The Wyverns and Falcoknights, you really shouldn't be using as tanks. Their mobility is their best thing. They can range ahead, and should be used for that, not standing still and taking the enemies in their multitudes (and watching out for archers). It was opinion. Because in MY opinion, Gatrie is not lame. In the opinions of a lot of people, Gatrie is not lame. In the opinions of some people, he is lame. But it was opinion all the same, and therefore a poor summary. I can't deny your opinion, so I told you it was a poor ending because it wasn't truth. Haha! Doubtless he IS more amazing than that! You know why? It's impossible for that to happen! So, he's better than nothing. It's a start, I suppose. These things you say are true. There is a LOT more alternative for Janaff than there is for Gatrie. With Gatrie, it's Brom (Gatrie wins hands down), Tauroneo (Gatrie wins again) and possibly a paladin, but you can easily use both thanks to the flexibility of paladins. With Janaff, anyone who can fly can pretty much do his role. Which is why Gatrie doesn't try to fly over rivers. Terrain bonuses? They ARE nice. Gatrie doesn't NEED to rely on them, his defence is perfectly capable of taking those hits without him suffering, due to his monsterous HP. But when he DOES use a wood or whatever, he's just... Godly. Unstoppable. Extra avoid, so he won't be getting hit all the time any more, another point of defence- with a fairly-common-wood on his side, Gatrie can take whatever comes at him. Ripped apart the front lines? I don't think so. Even with 23 defence, he's not always going to survive a whole turn of a whole set of enemies, which will likely include some archers to bring him down. And his double-attacking can be against him here: if he's killing every enemy, that is also hurting him, there will be more enemies able to come along and hurt him more. Not much, but worth considering before you say "Okay, ladyboy, time to go on a suicide mission!" Now, situational usefulness. You get Gatrie for 8 more chapters than Janaff. That's 8 chapters where he can be owning his enemies, 8 chapters where his enemies can be bouncing off his armour like small children off a trampoline. That's 8 chapters where you can train him up by sticking him against your weak enemies, and get him up to a level where he is quite capable of holding his own. Yeah, I actually answered that at the start, but it has been fun. And I've been harsher than normal in this, apologies. But you had some really good comebacks. Good debate. |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
|
|
|
| +Ema Skye | Sep 24 2006, 12:06 AM Post #8 |
|
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
|
Send votes to me kthx. |
|
MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
| |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Debates · Next Topic » |
4:02 PM Nov 27
