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| Merk vs CATS | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 6 2006, 12:43 PM (282 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Nov 6 2006, 12:43 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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3 posts each. Merk's opening. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Merk | Nov 9 2006, 09:38 PM Post #2 |
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ザワザワ
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Franz is the name of a country where a lot of homosexual people live. Lute is a musical instrument, and music r0x.
HP: 22 > 16; but Lute loses HP less often due to avoiding the counterattack on her first strike. MT: Franz gets +2 or +4 depending on his weapon, but Lute targets RES, the typically lower defense stat. Lute also typically avoids a counterattack. Hit: Lute has 106% and that rarely changes; Franz can vary between 78% and 118%. With lances, he may have an initial hard time hitting axe users (especially those pesky brigands hiding in the 40% Evade Peaks) Crt: Tie at 3% AS: Franz leads 7-6 and grows at 50% as opposed to 45%, so he does win here. It may mean that he doubles a few more HM enemies, but for the most part, Lute doubles just as much. Evade: Franz wins by 1%; may lose by 14% or win by 16% depending on WT. However, as Lute typically avoids the counterattack, this is less of a concern for her. CEv: Lute. An enemy with 7/8 SKL or more *can* critical Franz, whereas it takes 17/18 SKL to critical Lute (I forget whether Crt rounds up); and no enemy even on HM has that much SKL that early. Really, the only danger is Joshua. DEF: 3 < 7; Lute avoids CA. RES: 5 > 2; Lute avoids CA. [Franz vs. Seth] vs. [Lute vs. Saleh] Both Franz and Lute have to compete with prepromoted units for their respective roles. However, I will assert that Seth dominates Franz while the same is not true of Saleh and Lute. Franz vs. Seth Seth joins one chapter earlier than Franz with better bases than the cavalier could dream of. Seth's Bases (Lv 1 Paladin) | Franz's Bases (Lv 1 Cavalier): HP: 30 | 20 STR: 14 | 7 SKL: 13 | 5 SPD: 12 | 7 LCK: 13 | 2 DEF: 11 | 6 RES: 8 | 1 CON: 11 | 9 AID: 14 | 16 MOVE: 8 | 7 Obviously, Seth dominates Franz in every single stat, discounting AID, but it should be noted that the AID advantage doesn't matter as Seth can rescue both Gilliam and Garcia prepromotion. Postpromotion, he can't rescue them, but neither can promoted Franz. Seth also makes a better rescuer; even at halved SPD, he trumps Franz in survivability. Hell, you can give Seth a C Rank in his best support (and Anima x Light is pretty pimp with full ATK and DEF, but more on that later), Eirika, before Franz even joins, further tilting the scales in his favor. For the entire early-game and a good deal of the mid-game, Seth continues to dominate Franz. At level 11, Franz matches Seth in SPD, but loses everywhere else. Only by level 18-19 can Franz compete with Seth's bases; having some advantage in HP and STR/SPD, losing slightly in SKL, and DEF, and still being raped in RES and LCK. Until Franz begins to catch up, Seth has much more utility. Not only is he a better rescuer, but he can do things that no other unit can do in the early-game: - Recruiting Joshua. Gilliam is the only unit with the DEF to compete, but he gets doubled and two straight criticals from the Killing Edge will kill him. Of course, if Natasha isn't attacked by Joshua, this point is less powerful, but Natasha would have to get to Joshua via enemy fighters, soldiers, brigands, etc. - Chapter 10 Eirika, getting to all the villages in time requires Seth blasting forth at 8 MOVE and raping things he comes across. Franz lacks 1 MOVE/turn and doesn't have pwnage stats yet. - Etcetera. Of course, Seth isn't going to be level 1 for the entire game. Roughly, Franz gains EXP 3 times faster than Seth. So if the EXP required to raise Franz to level 19 is 18*100 = 1800 EXP, then Seth should be see about 600 EXP if used evenly. Seth (Lv 7 Paladin) | Franz (Level 19 Cavalier): HP: 35.4 | 34.4 STR: 17.0 | 14.2 SKL: 15.7 | 12.2 SPD: 14.7 | 16.0 LCK: 14.5 | 9.2 DEF: 13.4 | 10.5 RES: 9.8 | 4.6 CON: 11 | 9 AID: 14 | 16 MOVE: 8 | 7 Seth still dominates Franz. Franz's only advantage is 1.3 SPD, but that's somewhat countered by Seth's 2 CON advantage. Postpromotion, the gap does narrow a bit. Seth (Lv 7 Paladin) | Franz (Lv 1 Paladin) | Franz (Lv 1 Great Knight): HP: 35.4 | 37.2 | 38.2 STR: 17.0 | 15.6 | 16.6 SKL: 15.7 | 13.6 | 13.6 SPD: 14.7 | 17.5 | 18.5 LCK: 14.5 | 9.6 | 9.6 DEF: 13.4 | 12.7 | 12.7 RES: 9.8 | 5.8 | 5.8 CON: 11 | 11 | 13 AID: 14 | 14 | 12 MOVE: 8 | 8 | 6 And etcetera. Franz will eventually level up and surpass Seth, though only gaining EXP at the same rate now. And, of course, there's RNG stability to consider; Seth loses less stats in standard deviations than Franz due to high base stats and high growth rates. Point for point, Seth's Anima affinity > Franz's Light affinity; as both offer full ATK and DEF, but Anima gives Evade over Hit and Critical Evasion over Critical. Avoid > Hit easily; CEv > Crt for low-crit units like Paladins (and Franz doesn't have excellent SKL to begin with), so Seth's support alone with any affinity is worth more. Cancelling out the common support, Seth gets Eirika, Garcia, and Natasha in the early-game while Franz gets Gilliam and Natasha. In conclusion, Seth clearly wins the early-game by a long shot, still wins the mid-game, begins to lose out in the late-mid, and is surpassed in the end-game. Overall, his early-game usefulness and slight support advantage tips the scale in his favor. When you're given a unit that outclasses Franz for a good 60~% percent of the game and is still comparable at the endgame, why use Franz? Lute vs. Saleh I'm not going to go into great deal here. Here are the basics: - While Seth joins earlier than Franz slightly, Lute joins much (8-11 chapters) earlier. Thus, Lute has nobody that completely overshadows her for several chapters immediately after she joins. Moulder and Natasha can't attack right off the bat, and Artur is even with her at best (and loses out in several respects as well). - Until Saleh joins, Lute will be busy building up her level (and thus her awesome 60% MGC and 45% SPD, as well as her LCK and RES), weapon level, and support levels (including that tasty Anima x Anima support with Vanessa). - When Saleh joins, Lute will be almost even with him, perhaps winning in MGC/SPD, and losing only slightly everywhere else. - From there onwards, at even levels with supports, Lute owns Saleh in combat parameters (huge MT lead, high enough Hit%, superior AS, Evade%, CEv%, and Resistance). My thesis here was pretty obvious and contains little statistical or usefulness comparisons, my subsequent post will. Let's have a good debate. 
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s | |
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| C475_1337 | Nov 10 2006, 07:02 PM Post #3 |
One serious d00d
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???
Word. Since this is obviously a comparison for Chapter 4, when Lute joins, I’ll address your statements only within context of that Chapter.
Also, Iron Lance Franz has +5 against Sword Bonewalkers(where he has WTA), and against Mogalls(where Lute is at WTD). Franz can also use the 8 Mt Steel Sword for another point of Atk and still be faster than Lute.
There are no enemy Axes in Chapter 4. The only time you’ll see Brigands on Peaks this early on is Chapter 2, when Lute hasn’t joined, so it doesn’t really matter. Still, 7 of the 8 enemies in Chapter 2 are Brigands(the other is an Archer), so during that Chapter, why would you ever have a Lance out when you could have WTA with a Sword?
Actually it matters a lot early on. In Chapter 4, LvL 1 Lute can only double the Revenants, which average basically the same Def as Res, and the Boss(which has 0 in both Def and Res). Seeing as how all of the Revenants have over twice as much Hp as Lute has Atk, she can’t kill them with a DA, even if they have 0 Res. Everything else, she doesn’t double, and is even worse against. LvL 4 Franz can double every enemy in the Chapter. With an Iron Lance, he can kill 75% of the Revenants, and with the Steel Sword, he can kill the other 25% too. Actually there are only two enemies in the Chapter he cannot kill in one round, a single Bonewalker and the Boss. Makes Lute look pretty lame, considering that she can’t one-round anything at all. “But if you play NM Lute can double most of the enemies too!” I wouldn’t know about that, I don’t touch NM, but it doesn’t matter, because this tournament is only concerned with HM. That was established before it began.
Franz should rarely if ever be at WTD, and definitely not in Chapter 4, at least. He wins Dodge by 1 against neutral enemies, which doesn’t matter, and wins by 16 against Sword enemies, which definitely matters. Also, Lute has WTD against Dark Magic, so Franz also wins by a lot against enemies which use that. There are 3 Sword Bonewalkers and 3 Mogalls in Chapter 4, all of which Franz has much more Dodge against.
CEV doesn’t matter.
Franz’s Def lead is bigger than Lute’s Res lead and Def >>> Res to begin with. Not to mention that Lute has WTD against some of the early enemy Casters and WTA over none(sorry, the only Monks in the first 8 Chapters are in 5x). Also, Lute does not avoid counters where Res is concerned, as all enemy Casters have 1-2 Rng, the same as Lute. Anyway, Franz wins in Hp, Def and Dodge against enemy physicals and has WTA over some, so he’s obviously more durable against those. Even against the 3 Mogalls, he wins, because Lute is at WTD. Franz’s 6 Hp is better than Lute’s effective 2 Res when a Mogall attacks them once or twice; the Hp and Res tie if they get attacked 3 times, and the Res is better if they get attacked more than that. However, considering that there are only 3 Mogalls in the Chapter they’re not likely to get attacked that often, and when you add on Franz’s double-digit Dodge lead, he is definitely better off. Now, for what you keep saying about Lute avoiding enemy counters, remember that Franz can use the Javelin if he needs to avoid counters as well, though he usually won’t, since he is already much more durable than Lute. Even with the Javelin, Franz still beats Lute in both Atk and AS; the number of enemies he can one-round decreases if he uses the Javelin, but he can still kill some things, and since Lute can’t kill anything, Franz is still better. “But that -2 AS means Lute has 3 more Dodge!” 6 Hp/4 Def >>> 3 Dodge against enemy physicals, and against the Mogalls, Lute gets WTD and the Dodge situation is violently reversed(double-digit advantage for Franz even with -2 AS). So Franz beats Lute down pretty badly in both offense and defense. Adding on top of that, he has 2 more Move, he can Rescue anyone in the party while Lute can Rescue no one, and he can move after action. Also, when he is durable enough to take the enemies’ attacks(which is almost all the time, especially if you put him in a forest), you can let 3 or 4 enemies attack him and all die to his counterattack. Since Lute gets 2HKO’d by most enemies and can’t one-round any of them anyway, she’s stuck to finishing them off one by one after someone else weakens them for her. So Franz has even more destructive potential. No question that Franz dominates Lute at this point.
No, that's laughable, there's no way it takes you 19 turns to beat the Prologue.
Not rly. The fact that Seth’s a prepromo and Franz isn’t gives them separate roles. Early on at least(when Seth is still a better fighter than Franz), Seth’s job is to sit and watch, and swoop in when needed to either rescue somebody who might die, or kill a threatening enemy that can’t be killed by anyone else ATM. More fighting than that, he should not be doing, because he gets about 5 Exp for the same kills that net 30 Exp for everyone else; you want to waste as little Exp as possible, so Seth only fights when you have absolutely no alternative. Franz on the other hand wastes no Exp and is possibly your best fighter after Seth at this point, so he should be in the fray at all times, not sitting back and playing a kind of guardian role. Neither Seth nor Franz replaces the other. This difference in roles remains true until everyone promotes, at which point Seth isn’t very good anymore, he is getting surpassed by people like Gerik, Ephraim, Duessel, Cormag, probably even Franz himself.
The common Support should not be cancelled out. Seth and Franz can Support each other, which is definitely what you should do with them seeing as how Seth is the best option for Franz and Franz is the second-best option for Seth(after Eirika). B Support if you take Eir Route, A Support if you take Eph Route(on Eph Route, A Support with Franz is more useful to Seth than A Eirika, as Franz is there for the entire game, while Eirika leaves for 6 Chapters and her Seth Support is worthless during that time). Just more reason to use them together, especially since both are > Lute(I don’t think I’d agree with Seth > Franz, but if it’s true, then it follows logically that Seth > Lute, since Franz > Lute).
Saleh is bad, Lute owns him easily, no question about it. Unfortunately Saleh isn’t her real competition, that would be Artur pre-promotion and both Artur and Moulder post-promotion. Artur is faster than Lute for a good while, he has 2 more AS in Chapter 4, that lets him double every enemy in the Chapter but one, while I already named the enemies Lute can double. He only has 1 less Atk, so when neither doubles or both double Lute [size=0]>[/size] Artur, and when Artur doubles but Lute doesn’t, then Artur [size=7]>>>[/size] Lute. Gap between 9x2 Dmg and 10x1 is much bigger than the gap between 9 and 10, both once or twice. Artur also wins Hit and Crit, for what those are worth(not much). Durability really doesn’t matter yet because both are too frail to be taking hits, and so they’ll be sitting safely in the backlines where they don’t get attacked. Against the only enemies that can counter them right now(Mogalls), Artur >> Lute anyway because of the Magic Trinity. Anyway the AS means Artur can compete with Lute as a magic attacker for now(I’d certainly argue that Artur is better in Chapter 4), and Lute’s AS never catches up before promotion thanks to 3 Con(loses 1 AS even from Fire, Artur loses none from Lightning). Of course, she does close the AS gap to 1 point pretty fast, and her 15% higher Mag growth + stronger Tomes quickly widens her Atk lead, so she’s better than Artur by the midgame. During the early Chapters though, Artur gives Lute a run for her money, while no one competes with Franz because he’s your only Cavalier(Seth is a Paladin, totally different role at this point, as I explained already).
Ind33d. |
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| Merk | Nov 13 2006, 08:24 PM Post #4 |
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ザワザワ
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* points will be addressed after rebuttals.
Sorry for the shitty post. I'll give you a better closer. |
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s | |
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| C475_1337 | Nov 14 2006, 12:23 AM Post #5 |
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One serious d00d
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O I C. Good thing that’s a different guy, huh? Franz the FE unit……well, his personality isn’t badass, but he kicks lots of ass, one of the best units in the game.
*Slight* advantage? Franz kills 3 times faster, taking 3 Dmg on the counter doesn’t bother him at all, and is definitely worth being able to stick him in front and kill multiple enemies with his own counterattacks. Franz does more Dmg than Lute on the player phase, and is also able to dish out pain on the enemy phase when other monsters come to him and die to his counter, while Lute is hiding behind the lines. Obvious win for Franz. I mean, at least Franz can one-round something, Lute can’t kill anything. Even if the enemy’s counterattack was a problem, Javelin Franz still kills better than Lute.
I’ll direct you to this passage, where I covered their durability against Mogalls: Even against the 3 Mogalls, he wins, because Lute is at WTD. Franz’s 6 Hp is better than Lute’s effective 2 Res when a Mogall attacks them once or twice; the Hp and Res tie if they get attacked 3 times, and the Res is better if they get attacked more than that. However, considering that there are only 3 Mogalls in the Chapter they’re not likely to get attacked that often, and when you add on Franz’s double-digit Dodge lead, he is definitely better off. And considering that Franz’s counter will actually kill the Mogalls, even more win for him.
So give him the Javelin. As I’ve already explained, Javelin Franz is more durable than Lute against the Mogalls, and kills them on the counter, while Lute does not.
What are you talking about? Yes, both get 3HKO’d by the Mogalls, and thanks to Franz’s substantially higher Dodge against them, he’s more likely than Lute to survive. He’s also the only unit in the party who can kill them with a 1-2 Rng weapon(with the obvious exception of Seth). If sending Franz against them is a bad idea, then sending Lute is a downright horrible plan.
He’s the best you have next to Eirika(and again, Seth, but he shouldn’t be fighting, so it doesn’t matter). 2nd place ain’t too bad at all, better than Lute when she joins, for sure.
Okay, I’m glad you pointed this out. Now, in all seriousness, the only enemies which will have a Critrate against him with basic weapons are……Mercs and Myrms, which will have 1% on a good day. Nothing else has enough Skl, these two enemy classes are rare early on, and they can barely scratch Franz to begin with(his defense is better against them than Lute’s even if they have 1% Crit on Franz! Amazing!). And if he has even one C Support with Gilliam or Seth in effect, that’s gone. And by the end of the earlygame, it’s gone anyway; Franz’s base CEV grows much faster than enemy Skl. By the time SMs and Berserkers come into the picture, Franz has enough Supports to negate their Crit too. The most Skl any Chapter 19 SM has is 20, 25 Crit, and 20/10 Franz + full CEV Supports has precisely 25 CEV. So what enemies will have Crit against him which actually matters? Only those with Killer Weapons. And those have a Critrate against Lute, too. A smaller Critrate, but they’ll have one. Crits multiply Franz’s Def lead by 3. Observe: 15/0 Franz takes 7 Dmg from a Killing Edge Myrmidon. Same enemy does 12 Dmg to Lute. If Franz gets Crit’d, he takes 21 Dmg, which is alot, but he’s still alive. If Lute gets Crit’d, she takes 36 Dmg and dies. Franz is more likely to get Crit’d, but Lute is more likely to die(Franz can’t die), if I have to send one of ‘em in, it’s gonna be Franz. So who wins against the only enemies where CEV *does* matter? Franz.
If you want to talk about Cost, Franz’s Iron Sword/Lance beat Lute’s Fire Tome, and his Javelin ties Lute’s Thunder Tome. But really, it doesn’t matter, as there’s no Funds Rating in FE8, and you can easily afford basic weapons for both units.
Nope, Javelin Franz is still faster than Lute, even with the -2 AS. 7 > 6
Javelin Franz is less accurate than Fire Lute, but at least he *can* reliably kill some things. Even if he has 50% Hit, which is an enormous exaggeration, 50% chance of killing the enemy >> 1-2% chance(Lute’s odds of Critting).
One less Mt, oh noes. Definitely worth being able to counter when you get attacked by ranged enemies.
Yeah, and even with such a crappy weapon, Franz still does better than Lute. Pretty sad for Lute, hm?
Lute can’t one-round many enemies Mages for quite some time, while multiple physical units can do it with Javelin or Hand Axe, and are durable enough to take 1 or 2 magic attacks. Lute does excel at killing Knights, but that’s really it for her list of “notable against these enemies,” and she’s not the only one who can do it, either(Rapier Eirika, anyone with Armorslayer, Artur, and Ross can do it too). In fact, units like Ross are better than her at it, since he can run into that room of 5 Knights in Chapter 8, take all their attacks and survive easily, then kill them all with his counters. Lute isn’t durable enough to do that and has to pick them off one at a time from behind cover.
If you want to throw Support Abuse in, Franz can be fully Supported with Seth and Gilliam before Lute even joins. No, it’s not valid, but even if you do it, it doesn’t really help Lute’s case.
Okay. How does that give Seth and Franz the same role? You can say Hector > Matthew, but that doesn’t mean the two are competing with each other for their respective combat roles, since they do two totally different things.
Guess whose job that is too? Lute’s. And guess who Seth also outshines at it? Lute. Franz and Lute both lose to earlygame Seth if you disregard Seth’s Exp hogging, the only difference being that Franz doesn’t lose quite as badly.
Sure, you could have Seth kill the enemies. You also could use Saleh instead of Lute. But in both cases, it’s almost always a bad idea, so why would you?
At this point(earlygame), he can kill enemies without squandering Exp. That’s what he can do that Seth can’t, and it’s what sets them apart, since it means Seth should only fight when you have no alternative, while Franz is fighting all the time.
So you’re refusing to use the 2nd or 3rd best fighter you have at this point? Why?
Or you could not have Seth do any fighting, and Eirika/Vanessa get 150 Exp each, where Seth would have gotten about 15 Exp. So it’s still a bad idea to have him do the fighting when he doesn’t have to.
So basically, giving Exp to the unit who is worse at the moment is wasting it? Then I guess giving any Exp at all to Lute is a waste when it could be going to Franz, who is better than her. Your logic doesn’t work anyway, giving Seth Exp makes no sense when you could give it to other units who use it with about 6 times more efficiency and actually need the extra stats at the moment.
Yes he is. Those kills can go to anyone, they’re not reserved for Seth or Franz. Even if you kick Franz off the team, his kills should go to the other unpromoted units. Not Seth, who will squander them.
Franz x Seth is also significantly faster than either one of their Supports with Natasha, and they have an easier time keeping pace with each other(Franz’s 7 Move to Seth’s 8, where Natasha has 5). Also, Seth’s Bonuses don’t matter at all until he loses his god status(since he can own with or without them), and offensive Bonuses don’t matter for Natasha until she promotes because she can’t attack. Defensive Bonuses also matter less for her before promotion, because she should never be up front taking attacks anyway. Franz is the unit who gets the most out of good Supports at this point.
All this stuff about Franz vs Lute in the above direct comparison pretty clearly points to Franz as the better unit. He is more durable against every enemy in the Chapter, and can kill 20 enemies out of 22, while Lute can kill none. No way in hell is Lute better, just looking at the evidence we've got so far.
No, it makes perfect sense. Seth is better than Franz. Franz is better than Lute. If Lute is worse than Franz, who is worse than Seth, it just follows logically that Lute is also worse than Seth. Unless there were some exterior factor which affects Lute by comparison to Seth but not Franz......but there isn't.
Oh, sure. I acknowledged that. But early on, Artur can compete with Lute. Earlygame Franz competes with no one, as no one shares his combat role.
Sure she does. Seth thrashes Lute too. Even more than he thrashes Franz. So if you’d compare Franz to Seth, when they have different roles, then you can compare Seth against Lute as well, since they also have different roles. And before you say it, the fact that Franz and Seth use the same weapons hardly gives them the same role. Gerik and Colm both use Swords, Vanessa and Gilliam both use Lances, surely you wouldn’t argue that these units have the same battlefield role. And really, that’s the only similarity between earlygame Franz and Seth. They’re not even the same class, and if Franz promotes to GK like he should, they never will be. |
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For a glimpse into the Wonderful World of FEW, click here! Link leads to the best topic ever! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9819cZZ6Nw...related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVH2i6nvjsM&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAooq7e0gg0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=t6ETt94q2os http://youtube.com/watch?v=hSVNbxjdvv8 BEST SITE EVER: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...ARGIN_MAH_LAZER | |
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| Merk | Nov 16 2006, 07:20 PM Post #6 |
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ザワザワ
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Ugh. I can't even say "good debate" because I've been distracted and haven't given this my all. I'm sorry I gave you a lackluster match. |
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~AKA SkyFireZero. a r p s | |
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| C475_1337 | Nov 16 2006, 10:07 PM Post #7 |
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One serious d00d
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My fault, I made an error, 4/0 Franz has 8.5 Spd, not 9. Of course, that doesn’t change the fact that Franz is better. Going by the accepted averages used as the standard for this debate tournament, LvL 4 Franz + Javelin has 6.5 AS. LvL 1 Lute + Fire has 6.0. 6.5 > 6.0.
Sure, and when Franz doesn’t need 1-2 Range, which is most of the time, then he wins this, so neither one is clearly better. Like I said, it really doesn’t matter either way, as money is not a problem at all in this game.
60% Mag doesn’t matter if Lute is still LvL 1 and hasn’t gained any Levels. The statement was only in regards to their Chapter 4 performance, as nearly all my statements about Lute vs Franz in a direct comparison have been. I said that in my first post, and you never expanded the context. And in Chapter 4, Lute does need Crits to kill, as I’ve shown already. No, Lute won’t always need Crits to kill, but that’s not what I was saying. Don’t generalize. And just for your information, Lute has 65% Mag growth, not 60%. 
Scorched Sand is 20/1 at least. Lute is better here than in Chapter 4, but she still loses, observe: 20/1 GK Franz 38.2 Hp 16.6 Str 13.6 Skl 18.5 Spd 9.6 Luck 12.7 Def 5.8 Res 13 Con 20/1 MK Lute 28.6 Hp 20.1 Mag 12.7 Skl 15.5 Spd 16.6 Luck 7.8 Def 14.6 Res 6 Con Some enemy averages for this Chapter: Class/Hp/Str/Skl/Spd/Luck/Def/Res Wyvern Rider-32.4/13.4/8.1/8.9/4.5/12.3/2.5 Pegasus Knight-23.8/9.2/11.0/10.8/5.1/4.8/7.3 Mercenary-29.8/10.1/13.8/12.7/5.0/6.6/2.6 Myrmidon-26.4/9.2/14.8/15.0/4.6/4.4/2.8 Fighter-32.4/13.1/7.0/8.3/2.1/3.9/1.7 Mage-24.6/9.2/7.6/8.4/2.6/3.8/7.6 Shaman-22.9/9.9/5.8/6.5/2.8/3.3/8.3 Cavalier-32.3/10.7/8.6/9.6/4.7/8.3/2.2 Ranger-36.5/13.5/14.0/15.5/6.0/10.0/6.0 Berserker-44.0/20.0/15.0/13.5/3.5/8.0/3.0 Paladin-40.0/13.5/11.5/10.5/7.0/10.0/8.0 I’ll interpret the stats for you: Franz can 2HKO the Wyvern with a Steel Axe, and even with the Steel Axe’s -2 AS, he is still faster than Lute, so you can’t whine about that either. And if Franz has Supports(A Gilliam/B Seth, or he can go A Natasha instead of Gilliam, or B Forde, whatever), then he can even kill the Wyvern with the Hand Axe. Steel Axe Franz both doubles and OHKOs the Peg Knight, lol. And even if he equips a “terrible” Javelin, he can still rape the Peg Knight, who would have thought! Even with *gasp* a Javelin, Franz takes care of the Mercs easily. He’s borderline for doubling the Myrmidon, but he still has respectable odds of pulling it off, Lute doesn’t. And if he has at least +2 Atk Support, then he can OHKO them with the Steel Lance. Iron Sword Franz kills the Fighters no problem. And with a Javelin or Hand Axe, he can rape the Mage/Shaman, and can OHKO the Shaman with a Steel Lance(he can also OHKO the Mage with at least +2 Atk Support). Iron Axe Franz kills the Cavalier, he can kill them with the Hand Axe too, just for the record. Basically both of them can kill all this unpromoted rubbish. From this point on in the game, unpromoted enemies are mostly just jokes, and promoted ones are what you need to worry about. The Rangers have a Steel Sword and a Steel Bow on them, and 9 Con, so they lose one AS from their Steel Swords. If they equip the Steel Sword, then Franz will double, and can 2HKO as well with the Steel Lance. And even if he’s not doubling, Franz can pull out the Halberd and OHKO(yes, he can use that as soon as he promotes, GK Franz gets a D Rank in Axes). Lute can’t double or OHKO these, period. Franz can 2HKO the Berserker with a Steel Blade, and will double even with the -1 AS. Or, if he has at least +2 Atk Support, he can kill with the Iron Blade, and if he has a full +3, the Steel Sword. One of the two Berserkers has a Devil Axe, so Lute can double and kill him, but the other has Dragon Axe/Hand Axe, so she can’t double him, and like the Rangers, can’t kill him at all without a Crit. Franz can kill the Paladin with a Steel Axe if he gets any Atk Support at all, or if he’s not getting Atk Support, then he can use the Halberd. Franz *can* kill any of these. There are a few that Lute can’t kill period without a Crit, not many at all, but they’re still there. So Franz is still better, offense-wise. And just in case, if you would complain about Lute being an MK, we can make her a Sage instead, and now she can’t 2HKO the Paladins with Fire, and gets weighed down by Thunder so she can’t double with it. MK is what helps Lute at 20/1, when the Mag cap doesn’t matter, but MK’s higher Mag promo gain and higher Con do matter.
Franz can kill all that stuff with one weapon or the other. He probably needs a Silver Sword or Axe, or a Brave Weapon, to kill the Warriors, so I’ll grant that Lute is better against those. Franz can kill anything else using cheap weapons though(Hammer is buyable and pwns Generals/GKs). Franz is better against the SMs since he can double and 2HKO with a Steel Lance, and his win against those is bigger than Lute’s win vs Warriors, since Lute can’t double the SMs period and won’t OHKO even with Excalibur. It’s at least possible for Franz to kill the Warriors without a Crit if you really need him to. Franz also wins against the Heroes and Rangers, which Lute can’t always double.
Riev 51 Hp 15 Mag 22 Skl 20 Spd 11 Luck 16 Def 19 Res 7 Con 20/10 GK Franz + Brave Sword will 4x and kill in 4 Hits. 20/10 MK Lute + Excalibur does 25x2 Dmg, misses the kill by one point, lawl. And don’t whine about Lute being an MK here either, if you make her a Sage, she loses so much AS from Excalibur that she can’t double.
Exactly, so using Saleh over Lute is a bad idea. And during the earlygame, it’s also a bad idea to have Seth kill things when he doesn’t have to.
Right now, Franz is second or third best unit in the party(after Seth and maybe Eirika), not second or third best Cavalier/Paladin. If Franz is in your top 3 and you refuse to use him, then why use Lute, who is probably not even in the top 5 at this point. Not using Franz because Seth is better is like refusing to use Lowen early in FE7 because Marcus is better.
Seth doesn’t get anything from 15 Exp. Franz levels up with 150 and gains stats, so you actually get something. It’s better to give the Exp to Franz, since something > nothing. Exp doesn’t automatically go to the best unit in the party, it goes to the units who need it most and will get the most out of it. You don’t give your Speedwings to units like Colm and Tana who already have godly Spd and will cap the stat anyway, you give them to slow people like Gilliam, who actually need them. When it comes to Exp early on, that’s how Seth is next to the rest of the group.
You have 15 enemies to kill. Scenario A: Franz, Eirika and Lute fight and get 5 kills each, 150 Exp each. Scenario B: Seth fights instead of Franz and takes all the kills Franz would have gotten otherwise. Seth, Eirika and Lute fight and get 5 kills each, 25 Exp for Seth and 150 Exp for Eirika and Lute. Scenario C: Seth comes along for the ride, but you just let him sit back and watch, while Eirika and Lute do the fighting. Eirika and Lute fight and get 7 or 8 kills each, 210 Exp for one, 240 Exp for the other. In Scenario A or C, you get 450 Exp total; in Scenario B, when Seth fought actively, you get 325 Exp total. Alot less. If you use Seth to kill things, instead of other units who get way more Exp, then you’re going to get smaller total Exp gains, there’s no way to deny this. In your own exact words from one of the FE7 debates, “Wasted EXP is poor planning.” And in Scenario C, it should be Eirika and Franz, not Eirika and Lute. Since Franz > Lute early on, if you give Seth Exp instead of Franz just because Seth fights better, then it’s also fair to give all Lute’s Exp to Franz.
No it’s not. As I showed above, you get significantly less total Exp gains when Seth fights, no matter how you slice it. 10 Levels of stat growth helps more than 5 Levels of stat growth, more Exp is a good thing, this is also impossible to deny; having Seth hold back directly results in the team getting more total Exp, more levels, and thus, more stats. And now, it’s time for me to point out why your Seth > Franz deal has been a silly argument from the start. Even assuming that Seth does not ever waste Exp, he always has better stats than Franz, and he and Franz do have the same combat role(all of these are false, but assume them to be true for just for a moment), your point still doesn’t work, because the debate is Franz vs Lute, not Franz vs Seth. If, by your logic Seth > both Lute and Franz, then Seth is going to be used no matter what; the question here is who would you rather use between Franz and Lute? And the answer to that question is Franz; even if Seth > Franz is true, that doesn’t change the fact that Franz > Lute, and so it would be better to have Seth + Franz than to have Seth + Lute. So, good job with your Seth > Franz case, unfortunately for you, that was totally irrelevant and did nothing to prove Lute > Franz, which is what you needed to prove in order to win the debate.
Meh, good debate anyways. Alright, vote time. |
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| +Ema Skye | Nov 16 2006, 10:08 PM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Vote now kthx. |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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9:03 PM Nov 28
